Why Britain’s Extreme Political Correctness Needs to Be Utterly Mercilessly Destroyed

{ 25 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Sigmund, Carl and Alfred 11.27.09 at 7:10 pm

Superb. Posts like this make me want to bet back to original work.

Claire rightly notes that there is a ’silent majority’ like her, comprised of Brits of all stripes and across the religious spectrum- and that group is a lot larger than she might imagine.

2 Rihab 11.27.09 at 7:23 pm

I don’t think allowing Nick Griffin to debate is an example of PC gone crazy. As someone who has and is residing in England, I have to say that the British are by far one of the most tolerant societies in the West, if not the world over. Yes, Nick Griffin represents a very ugly and poisonous line of political thought, but at the end of the day it is a thought and an opinion that does have a right to voice itself regardless of how horrendous the vast majority find it to be. Silencing the likes of Nick Griffin not only goes against the principle of free speech but is bound to backfire and give fuel to their distorted ideals that take advantage of, some legitimate, frustrations felt by the white working class; resolving those frustrations is the real issue that must be addressed. Giving the BNP a platform to debate was big news when it occurred and now, a few weeks later no one gives a crap, so what difference has it made?

I think asking for the silencing of such voices is PC gone crazy, it is reminiscent of the Bush administration’s labelling Americans against the Iraq war as anti-American and unpatriotic. Attempting to draw lines on freedom of speech is a dangerous practice bcs it will only lead to oppressive societies where people lose all sense of independent thought - and having just come back from Sudan, I sincerely believe that is the worst fate for any society.

3 Manas Shaikh 11.28.09 at 3:59 am

Oh boy.

4 hakshoofdomty 11.28.09 at 5:17 am

والله ابان دقون المولعين بمثنى والثلاث والرباع دخلونا فى خازوق
والله قصيدة حلوة وكلامك تمام التمام وفى الصميم لكن وين مع الوهم القاعدين فوق رقابنا نعانى نحن مرضى الضروس والاسنان كذلك منهم. الرجاء ان تتناول بالقدح والذم ايضا مظاهر الوهم ديل من امثال مصفر الاست الطيب مصفى وصحبو اسحق فضل العيالاتى واطباء الاسنان الذين اصبحوا وزراء خارجية ورؤساء لنقابات عمال وناس ضار على ضار استاذ الفلاحة البقى يشتم ويشمت فى العباد
والله لن ينعدل حالنا الا اذا اهتم بنا حيث نحن مرضى الضرس و الاسنان مشتهين نعضى لينا اى لحمة كدة ونقرض الشعر قرضا كالدوم لكن العين بصيرة واليد قصيرة والفك فى حيرة نرفض بشدة كل تلك الاسماء التى ذكرتها
ونرشح من جانبنا احد الاثنين يا مصطفى عثمان اسماعيل او غندور للنهضة بالثقافة عامة والشعر خاصة حيث ان معظم شعرانا ومثقفينا يعانون من هشاشة الركب والاسنان
مرفق لكم طلب استراحام نرجو نشره واشاعته حتى يستجاب لنداء الشعب الابىء
فى راى المتواضع نرى ان كل مشاكل السودان سببها الاتى :
الفجوة التى تركها كل من مصطفى عثمان اسماعيل وبروف غندور : Vacuum left by dr
Mustafa Osman and Prof Gandoor
يتفق معظم الباحثين والاكاديمين على ان مايعانيه التعليم العالى فى السودان ماهو الا نتيجة لهجرة العقول وليس هنالك دليل على ذلك اعظم واكبر من fuite de cerveaux
الفجوة التى تركها كل من دكتور مصطفى عثمان اسماعيل وبروف غندور لم يرى مثلها فى التاريخ لدرجة انها اثرت حتى على التركيبة الاسنانية الهشة لابناء هذا الوطن المعطاء
سعادة المشير عمر البشير
نتقدم الى حضرة سعادتكم بهذا الرجاء والتوسل طالبين منك بعد المولى عزة وجل ان تنظر اليه بعين الاعتبار.
ان ماتتعرض اليه بلادنا اليوم ماهو الاحلقة من حلقات التامر الصهيونى الامريكى الصليبى البغيض الذى يستهدف ديننا وهويتنا وعزنا وعرضنا , لذا فانه نراءى ياسعادة المشير المشار اليه بالبنان المخضبة بدماء الشهداء من امثال الاشواس الزبير والشهيد الاخر الذى تزوجت بحرمته حفاظا للدين والعرض الذان ما فئيكت تدافع وتزوم من اجلهما لذا ياسعادة المشير نرى ان الحل والحل الاوحد هو :
ان يرجع ويعود كل من مصطفى عثمان اسماعيل خاصة وغندور عامة(نظرا لضخامة حجمه) الى مواقعهم ووظائفهم السابقة.
فلقد تبين لنا بما لايدع اى مجال للشك او الظنون او القيل والقال بان كل مصائب ومتاعب ومشاكل السودان ناتجة من شىء واحد فقط استطاعت قوى الشر والاستكبار العالمية والاستعمار الجديد واللوبى الصهيونى الامريكى النفوذ والدخول من خلاله الا وهو : وجع الاسنان والضروس
فكل حركات التمرد التى انتظمت واندلعت فى سوداننا الحبيب كالعقد الفريد الذى انفرط وانقطع خيطه من اقصى الشرق والشمال والغرب كلها بداءت وتحركت لسبب بسيط وسهل وغير معقد استغلته قوى الشر والاستكبار العالمى واللوبى الصهيونى الامريكى للدخول عبر هذه الفجوة الهشة الصماء استغلته للدخول لوطننا العزيز نعود ونكرر انه الا هو : وجع الاسنان
فمنذ ان ترك مصطفى عثمان اسماعيل ومزمل غندور مناصبهم وخدماتهم الاساسية الجليلة التى صرف هذا الشعب الابى من دم قلبه ليتاهلوا ويصلوا لاعلى مراتب العلم والتحصيل العلمى البحت منذ ان تركوا باب العلم والعلوم الذى هو بحر لاشاطىء او ضفة له ومنذ ان تركوا العناية والرعاية باسنان مواطنى اهل السودان الاحرار الابرار فقد استغلت قوى الشر والاستكبار هذه الفجوة والفرقة والبون الشاسع للدخول عبرها كالسوسة فى الضرس والسن الى قلب المواطن والشعب السودانى الحر الابى .
اننا لاننكر كل الخدمات والاعمال الجليلة التى انجزها كلا الرجلين سواء فى الخارجية او عمال السودان لكن كما جاء فى الشرع الحنيف فان للضرورة احكام
لذا فاننا نرى ونلتمس ونرجو من سعادتكم ارجاعهما حتى ولو بقرار جمهورى الى عيادتهما ومستشفياتهما وبحوثهم العلمية البحتة الشيقة التى كان يحسدنا عليها جل وكل اساتذة ودارسى علوم طب الاسنان فى قاطبة العالمين العربى والافريقى فى المحيط القريب والعالم باسره فى المحيط البعيد : انظر مثلا الى هذا المتهافت على موائد ملوك وامراء البترول المدعو عمر موسى كيف يريد ان يغرر ويضل بابنناء البار ويصرفه ويزحه وكله غيرة وحسد عن مجال تخصصه بارساله هنا وهناك كالطفل وحتى عندم يؤدى اعماله ومهامه وتكلل بنجاح وكيف لا وهو اهل لها بالف مرة من اى مصرى او عربى قح لايشكر ولايتحدث عنه لله درك يا ود اسماعيل انه تواضع العلماء. اما عن غندور فيكفى شرف لهذا الرجل الكتلة القامة انه اول من قام اثناء تفرغه للعمل الاكاديمى البحت بسن سنة الزواج من مثنى وتلاث ورباع وذلك فى داخل اسرة طب الاسنان.
لذا ومن اجل كل هذا نرى ياسعادة المشير ارجاعهم واعادتهم لقطع دابر الاعداء والمتربصين ولكى يتفرغاء تماما لعناية ورعاية اسنان وضروس ابناء هذا الشعب ولبحوثهم العلمية البحتة.
الله اكبر والعزة والنصر للسودان الله اكبر (3 ) ولله الحمد (3 )
نستميحكم عذرا سعادة المشير بان لنا نظرة بخصوص عودة غازى صلاح الدين لبحوثه عن الدم والبيوكمسترى واخر حول قطوعات الكهرباء بعد سد مروى
السد السد الرد بالسد
سودانى وجع الضروس والاسنان مطلع دينو
Dixiit dominus domino meo
sede a dextris meis
Pedes habent, et non ambulabunt
Oculos habent, et non videbunt
manus habent, et non palpabunt
nares habent, et non adoabunt

5 Don Cox 11.28.09 at 9:53 am

One result of Britain’s brief experience of exploring everywhere and running an empire is that the British tend to think of the whole world as familiar territory. We grow up on books about Africa, India, South America, or China. There is not, I think, any Arab or Japanese equivalent to Darwin’s “Voyage of the Beagle”, Kipling’s “Kim”, or Lofting’s Dr Dolittle books.

So when people from the old empire colonise the UK, they perceived as members of the Commonwealth rather than aliens.

The other thing that makes a big difference is demographics. The more teenagers there are in a population, the easier it is to rouse up racist or fascist hysteria and start riots and terror campaigns. The UK has an older population than, for instance, Egypt.

6 Don Cox 11.28.09 at 10:00 am

Griffin comes from a Fascist family. His grandfather, I think, supported Mosley in the 1930s. Likewise, the Redgrave family have a tradition of Marxism.

7 Don Cox 11.28.09 at 10:04 am

One other point is food. For at least two generations, the British have been happily eating in Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Italian, Greek etc restaurants, and buying exotic food to eat at home. So the natural association of “Chinese” is not “Yellow Peril” but “good food”.

8 Abu Sa'ar 11.28.09 at 11:58 am

An excellent article, Drima and Claire

And British colonialism is not something to be ashamed of.

The Empire’s colonial project gave birth to such marvels as USA, Canada, Australia, NZ, HK;

It enabled modern India to come into being by uniting it with a common language and a network of railroads;

It produced the scientific revolution that gave human lives - the natural state of which another product of British colonialist culture defined as “nasty, brutish and short” - nigh infinite potential.

By ignoring the benefits the Empire brought the world, you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You used to have the greatest Empire this world has ever seen, and even in their ignorance, arrogance and brutality your ancestors advanced the human species.

And I say this as an Israeli, whose homeland was once conquered and colonized by the British (who promptly proceeded to cut down what of our forests the Arabs and Turks didn’t, hunt the last of the wildlife to extinction, hang Jewish nationalists, kill Jews returning to their homeland and so on).

9 Howie 11.28.09 at 7:01 pm

Hi guys…

Oh…I have many thoughts on this subject. The Brits are right where we Americans have been, starting in the 1960’s and peaking probably around the 1990’s. We remain under the shadow of PC…but slowly squeezing our why out of it…

I kind of freaked out when Ed Norton did his monolouge as a Nazi in American History X….If this subject fascinates you, watch that part of the movie. Here I am…a Jew who lost family to the Nazi’s etc. and I could not help but AGREE with a whole lot of what that neo-Nazi character had to say…it was mind-bending.

I am sure many of the Brit Muslims feel mistreated or whatever, but I am also certain many are playing an old trick American blacks used to play and still do…they themselves referred to it in the old days as “Mao-maoing”…named after the Mao-Mao warriors. Basically…it was playing the race card even when you new race was not the issue. They learned they could just FREEZE most white people with that word and many have and do exploit it. “Oh you just did that, said that, etc. because I am black”. There was a black comedian that did an entire routine on it..the kid that played J.J. in “The Jefferson’s”…He would talk about how he could intimidate grades out of professors because his shitty papers were really graded down because of racism and cultural insensitivity. Probably they have his routine on YouTube someplace.

I had discussion with my Mexican brother-in-law yesterday about illegal immigration…it was very interesting, but I guess too long to get into at this point.

It is very hard to train your mind to just look at a person’s ideas and behavior and block out their race, religion etc. I have tried to do this for years and pretty much fail…I will even ask myself “if that were a white dude or whatever…would I agree, tolerate blah blah?”

Except for Russian Jews…who are despicable creatures and unworthy of being called human…we have to train our minds to primarily look at that person and his ideas and behavior…primarily (of course there are political and social contexts).

Even my own kids have inferred to me that I need to understand terrorists…Well…no…you sneak into somebody’s house at night and shoot their two babies…no sorry…I don’t care if your feelings had been hurt really badly”. I respect other folks have a point and grievances, but certain actions cannot be rationalized.

Do you remember the 1992 LA riots…Rodney King and the dude Football Williams. Him and his buddies stopped the trucker, Reginald Denny…and nearly beat that guy to death…a horrendous beating. They got caught…and their defense: “black rage”. That Denny was a metaphor for the whites that had oppressed blacks and they really had nothing against Reggie…in fact he later went and hung out with Football’s family!!!! But they had hurt feelings so should not be punished for nearly killing this poor SOB (originally, if I recall, they started with the Ma0-Mao defense…that he had called them niggers or something so it was OK to try to beat him to death…but that quickly fell flat).

So….keep profiling at the airports boys!!! Check Drima and roust my son again (who looks like an Arab and a hippie drug dealer) and don’t waste time to roust Raccoon’s grandmother…she is just another drunk Russian…like most of us…we just peacefully drop off to sleep while singing old Russian folk ballads and we don’t blow up planes or shoot a bunch of innocent people on a military base.

10 Abu Sa'ar 11.29.09 at 2:32 am

Howie -

Frankly, my sole surviving grandmother is turning religious instead of drunk. So it seems she’ll drop peacefully off while praying. Whatever floats her boat, I guess.

Pity she’s too old and set in her ways to start smoking weed. I reckon it’s a terrible crime, not to proscribe cannabis to geriatric patients. At least let them die with a smile on their face. None should suffer so.

Truly, this pains me more than even the lamentable deterioration of Albion’s culture. Indeed, it impacts more people in the immediate range and is significantly easier to remedy.

Ach, going off-tangent

11 Howie 11.29.09 at 6:07 am

Abu_

“Frankly, my sole surviving grandmother is turning religious instead of drunk.”

Oh…I thought you were Russianj

12 Abu Sa'ar 11.29.09 at 1:39 pm

Yes, but my family is afflicted with genetic intolerance of alcohol. And since the old woman won’t smoke Jah’s gift, what’s she got to do but pray?

13 amal 11.29.09 at 1:47 pm

Hey Drima,

Happy Eid and I hope that you are fine and all is well with you.

I have to say that I am struggling to see the argument from your point of view. Racism is inexcusable and building a political party based on race and religion is very dangerous. The BNP did not come into existence because of political correctness in the UK. People anywhere have the right to worship what they want, without being singled out for being different or too many. Nobody has the power to stop English people from being English or stopping Christmas for that matter! Living side by side while being different is called co-existence.

Parties such as the BNP feed on hatred and prejudice, they try to blame the poor economic situation on others. Its unfortunate but the English people’s ethic is not what it used to be. Many working class people in the UK are finding themselves living in a cycle of benefits, with a number of generations leaving school early, getting pregnant at a young age and relying on the state to support their families.

I do admit that this is a stereotypical view of modern Britain but from the observations of someone growing up and living within this society I can tell you that this is truly the picture for many.

The new communities moving to this country such as Iraqis and Afghanis work extremely hard. They know the hardship of losing everything, therefore they work around the hour and build their businesses and make sure their children go to universities. Most shops tend to be owned by Afghans recently and a lot of the hospitals and the GP’s employ Iraqi doctors.

Its not only the Muslim communities, most children from ethnic minorities such as the Chinese, Indians and Jews tend to be pushed harder by their families into pursuing professional education in universities. Even the poles, who immigrated to this country only about three years ago, have done really well during their short stay. You find polish businesses everywhere and they live pretty well in this country.

Obviously this creates conflict as these communities end up doing better than their neighbours. The rational of parties such as the BNP is why are such groups living better off in our country? However, if everybody has the same opportunity, why are they unable to achieve the same results?

As I stated earlier it’s a problem of declining work ethics in the UK, you cannot blame someone else for your predicament. The problem always comes down to poverty and poor education. Good government programmes that aim to eliminate poverty and a change in cultural aims and inspirations are the only solutions.

By the way, I for one did not appreciate the episode of question time with Nick Griffin. The whole show turned into an attack on the BNP, which I did not appreciate. Although I do not agree with him or his party but Nick Griffin was within his right to express himself, without constant interruptions and heckling. There should have been people in the audience that sympathised with his party and the debate should have been more balanced.

Amal

14 Don Cox 11.30.09 at 10:32 am

“The BNP did not come into existence because of political correctness in the UK.”

It has been growing for two reasons: it appeals to the small minority of xenophobes, and it appeals to some who are disgusted with all three main parties.

Everything Amal says is right, but there is another factor. The growth of education and training in Britain has more and more stratified the population according to qualifications. A generation back, you would find intelligent, capable people doing (well) jobs that require no paper qualifications. Now, practically every child with any ability at all is caught up in the system and given a bit of paper that settles his or her station in life.

The ones who do badly at school are left as an unemployable and resentful layer at the bottom. Naturally they look for someone to blame.

15 Don Cox 11.30.09 at 10:37 am

“Many working class people in the UK are finding themselves living in a cycle of benefits”

It might be better to call them the non-working class, or the sub-working class.

16 Abdul 11.30.09 at 9:21 pm

Wow what an interesting post, kudos to Claire for her thoughts. Drima I thought the title was a bit harsh though.

Im a Sudanese-Brit lived in the UK all my life, who in terms of living in this society as a second-generation immigrant, feels blessed.

First of all as Claire stated ‘It’s such a huge and complex conversation, I can’t even begin to do it justice.’ Yep, I don’t think anyone knows how to deal with this issue of Britain’s model for multiculturalism.

I do hold the British model as being unparalleled in the world – particularly in Europe as Rihab stated in her comment. Within its borders it probably is the fairest place to be if you are from an ethnic minority. Sadly though, people across the spectrum, all the way from newly arrived asylum seekers to outright fascists, have taken advantage of this fact.

Firstly looking at the problem on a wider scale – nearby France – has their model for integration of immigrants worked? You only have to walk in the suburbs of Paris or anywhere for that matter in Marseille to find your answer. The same can be said of cities in Italy, Germany, The Netherlands and so on. I’m talking from my own experience, I have been to those places and I’m grateful that all those years ago my father decided to study in the UK.

Now back to the topic of political correctness – in my lifetime here it is true that I have encountered many occasions where I have said to myself ‘Man! These English people are toooo nice for their own good!!’. There are some shameful migrants who have come here and have seriously taken the P*SS, and that fuels the arguments of Nick Griffin and his folk.

‘It is from our embarrassed white brother’ – yep I definitely concur with this statement. Political correctness in the UK has definitely gone beyond what is necessary. A majority of the discussion though is conducted by the native Brits ; serious I’m fed up of being represented by well meaning idealist hippy types. Political correctness isn’t the crux of the matter though.

The rise of the BNP is due to the failure of the British government in its neglect of the millions of people living on handouts in state housing - with absolutely no hopes or chance of making their lives better, through partly their own fault as Amal correctly pointed out.

These are the very people who have to first encounter any newly arrived immigrants as they tend to end up living in the same depressing tower blocks. Naturally the British ‘working’ class fall for the bait set by the National Front who by the way have existed in Britain since before the Muslims came. The BNP are using a formula used by Hitler and Enoch Powell, who crudely simplified the problems of the poor in order to sell their twisted and godforsaken ideals.

It seems that British Politics is played out entirely for the middle classes these days. Its wayyyyy above the heads of most people who are concerned with their gas bills, hospital waiting times, price of fuel etc. Tony Blair’s first term beginning in 1997 gave Brits hope – just like Obama gave the world hope on his inauguration - but we know how that turned out.

To really address the problem of the rise of the BNP one needs to rightfully cater for their own, Britain needs to solve the issue of the millions of people struggling at the bottom of the social ladder. Political correctness is a side-issue I feel, it’s not the root of the problem.

17 Howie 11.30.09 at 10:18 pm

Abdul…

Your’s is a well-thought out post.

In terms of integration…that too is a complex issue. To begin with, immigrants almost always “self-ghettoize” which is natural…by the 3rd generation that tends to disperse grandly…but too a lesser degree that happens with groups of color who don’t blend into the mainstream as easily…but that is a different subject.

I have learned that the problems of “the poor” are quite complex and folks are dumb if they try to just reduce it to classism or racism. Drugs, alcohol, welfare mentality, mental illness, role models, self-image, and, yes…opportunity, all this and much more are part of the story.

With PC…I still go back to what I said in the first place…try to treat people based on their ideas and behavior…and that is enormously hard to do.

18 ras babi abdalla babiker 12.02.09 at 3:39 pm

It is not about hate…
it is about who will eat the cake
who ate the cake
who is eating the cake
same things are happening everywhere
call them racism
fascism
one man
one people
wants to be on top of the rest
this is sheeeet.

19 ras babi abdalla babiker 12.02.09 at 3:43 pm

ID MUBARAK, bro.

20 Eva, Canada 12.06.09 at 7:49 am

I think the best analysis of the British (and by extension other Western countries) social illness are to be found in the works of Theodore Dalrymple (British writer / prison doctor / psychiatrist). The following is an excerpt from his page in Wikipedia:

• The cause of much contemporary misery in Western countries - criminality, domestic violence, drug addiction, aggressive youths, hooliganism, broken families - is the nihilistic, decadent and/or self-destructive behaviour of people who do not know how to live. Both the smoothing over of this behaviour, and the medicalization of the problems that emerge as a corollary of this behaviour, are forms of indifference. Someone has to tell those people, patiently and with understanding for the particulars of the case, that they have to live differently.[6]
• Poverty does not explain aggressive, criminal and self-destructive behaviour. In an African slum you will find among the very poor, living in dreadful circumstances, dignity and decency in abundance, which are painfully lacking in an average English suburb, although its inhabitants are much wealthier.[7]
• An attitude characterized by ‘gratefulness’ and ‘obligations towards others’ has been replaced, with awful consequences, by an awareness of rights, a sense of entitlement. The result is resentment as, naturally, those rights are violated by parents, authorities, bureaucracies and others in general.[8]
• Technocratic or bureaucratic solutions to the problems of mankind produce disasters in cases where the nature of man is the root cause of those problems.
• One of the things that makes Islam attractive to young westernized Muslim men, is the opportunity it gives them to dominate women.[9]
• It is a myth (its name is: cold turkey) that withdrawal symptoms of an opiate addiction (i.e. heroin) are virtually unbearable. It is hardly worse than flu.[10][11]
• Criminality is much more often the cause of drug addiction than its consequence.
• The ideology of the welfare state is used to diminish personal responsibility. Erosion of personal responsibility makes people dependent on institutions and favours the existence of a threatening and vulnerable underclass.
• Moral relativism can easily be a trick of an egotistical mind to silence the voice of conscience.[12]
• Multiculturalism and cultural relativism are at odds with common sense and statistical evidence.[13]
• The decline of civilised behaviour, such as: self-restraint, modesty, zeal, humility, irony, detachment, is a disaster for social and personal life.[14]
• The root cause of our contemporary cultural poverty is intellectual dishonesty. First, the intellectuals have destroyed the foundation of culture, and second, they refuse to acknowledge it by resorting to the caves of political correctness.
• Beyond and above all other nations in the world, Britain is the place where all the evils summarized above are most clearly manifest.[15]

21 Don Cox 12.06.09 at 11:12 am

“Poverty does not explain aggressive, criminal and self-destructive behaviour.”

Most often, I think, it is the other way around - bad behavior makes a person poor. But poverty can also be the result of simple incompetence. There are many people who are just not worth employing, in a world which has few jobs for those who would in the past have worked at digging holes. Some of these unemployable people do become bitter and resentful, or take to drink.

22 Nobody 12.08.09 at 4:37 pm

Beyond and above all other nations in the world, Britain is the place where all the evils summarized above are most clearly manifest.

I have been there but that’s my impression too

23 Howie 12.08.09 at 10:06 pm

Don…

You are correct in many ways.

In terms of crime…what I find is that people commit the crimes that are within their social context. Poor neighborhoods you get gangs, violence, break-ins, car theft.

Better neighborhoods; all the crimes based on crime and deception. A guy ripped my father and 100’s of others off for his retirement…a complete scam. He did FAR more damage than I dude beating you up and stealing your cash.

24 C.H. 12.11.09 at 9:07 pm

“it is reminiscent of the Bush administration’s labelling Americans against the Iraq war as anti-American and unpatriotic.”

That’s quite a loaded statement. Sometimes I think that leftists and so-called “antiwar” activists have convinced themselves that the Bush Admin labeled them “anti-American”…when most of its just imagined. Often, they do a good job of that themselves…when they make movies like “Death of a President” and “W”. Bush’s time in office showed just how strong free speech is in America.

25 david baer 12.28.09 at 6:08 am

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