When I was 14, I spent close to six months in a Wahhabi-influenced Islamic school. During my time there I was exposed to all kinds of life-changing religious experiences.
One of the most memorable ones started when some interesting ideas were fed to me and my classmates by a God-fearing pious Jordanian teacher.
He sat before us for one entire week, and talked to us about the importance of piety and reciting the Quran.
We listened attentively. Even I myself, listened attentively too, and why not? After all, I wanted to be pious. I wanted to be closer to God. I wanted to be a better Muslim, and so I paid attention and kept an open mind.
But the result was nothing but a disgusting fear that shook me for over 30 days.
One of the things the so-called “teacher” emphasized was the importance of reading Surat Al-Mulk every night before going to bed.
According to him, if anyone of us died during sleep without reading it before going to bed, we would have to endure the horrific pains of “The Torture of the Grave.”
Belief in “the torture of the grave” indeed stretches way back in history. It appears in eighth-century epitaphs and in early Islamic traditions, which elevated this belief to the status of dogma.
But pious Muslims today continue to adhere to this belief. In invocations, funeral prayers, sermons, and popular literature, Muslims are frequently reminded to heed this punishment.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that many of them take it seriously. The psychologist Ahmed M. Abdel-Khalek, who has studied anxieties about death among Arab youth, has found that preoccupation with the torture of the grave remains acute.
The Egyptians and Kuwaitis he polled worried about this torture more than they feared losing a dear relative or succumbing to a serious, fatal disease.
For over a month, I read the required chapter from the Quran before going to bed. But on some nights, I’d forget, only to jump out of bed later in the middle of the night rather terrified at the possibility of dying in my sleep and going through the Torture of the Grave.
Initially, nobody in my family noticed something different about me, but my mom eventually did.
I still remember her walking into my room one night and seeing me frantically reading the Quran. “Boy, since when do you read the Quran before going to bed? I thought you preferred those science magazines of yours,” and so I told my mom the entire story.
She was furious at what my teacher had done, and thankfully told me the comforting words I desired to hear.
I believed her because she was pious, prayed five times a day and spoke of a loving God rather than a terrifying one who enjoys dipping our asses into BBQ sauce and roasting them in eternal infernos.
Plus, she was much older than I am, so surely she must have known some things about the nature of God, Islam, and faith that I was probably missing.
And it worked.
The next day my fear-induced habit of reading the Quran before going to bed vanished, and I told my teacher that he was wrong because God was loving and merciful, to which he replied “so, are you denying the existence of hell?”
My teacher had a point, but so did my mom. What they said simply represented different sides of the same coin, which is the reality of how most people practice religion - cherry picking.
My mom focused (and continues to focus) on all the nice things in Islam by conveniently interpreting the harsh aspects away, while my lunatic teacher, I believe, did take religion all as a whole and recognized even the harsh aspects but placed an extra focus on them.
As for me, I realize today that one of the the main reasons I accepted the garbage preached by my old genius teacher was because I did not require evidence for such claims. On top of that I was gullible, and bought into his definition of open-mindedness.
His was a horrendous one and required people to accept what he preached as the “truth” without demanding evidence. It is the same kind of destructive so-called “open-mindedness” encouraged by too many religious preachers today, and it stinks.
This is how I believe open-mindedness ought to be defined.
Defining Open-Mindedness
The video is also relevant to an important question that came up during “The Crocodile-Infested River of Blasphemy” debate on verifying Mr. Y’s “inspirational capacity” and whether knowledge derived from it is reliable or not.
It’s something I’ll leave you to think about.
Meanwhile, I had a dream last night about a flying hippopotamus with large butterfly wings. Singer Celine Dion spoke through him to me and told me that I need to go out to buy and distribute massive amounts of cotton candy to the world’s children.
She said I had to hurry and that if I don’t do as she says, aliens in UFO’s will kidnap me, throw me into a dark dungeon on Planet Booga Ooga 69, where I’ll be chained in front of Britney Spears as she sings to me all her top hits on loop for all eternity.
Millions of people already believe this and are already implementing the important cotton candy instructions in their lives. Oh, but here’s the best part.
If you don’t start doing the same soon, go and buy some really good ear plugs. You’re going to need them. 
SINcerely,
Drima Abu Hamdan Ibn Zandaqa
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 42 comments… read them below or add one }
“His was a horrendous one and required people to accept what he preached as the “truth” without demanding evidence. It is the same kind of destructive open-mindedness encouraged by too many religious preachers today, and it stinks.”
So true for every religion! Many of them often preach nonsense and, when asked about it or when asked to provide any evidence that supports their claims, they say don’t question higher power or just have faith…
Here is the thing, when it comes to religion and evidence there is the loop hole of the divinity of evidence and the blasphemy of questioning. So if you asked your teacher to provide evidence he will provide you with hadiths and sora’s supporting his position (something that your mother can’t for instance since she can’t really wish those parts away she can only say she doesn’t heed them any importance).
So unless you step on the bank of blasphemy you are unable to scrutinize the evidence adequately, and the only thing stopping you from doing that is fear. Hence the effectiveness of religion, a loop that guarantees even when you are questioning you will “always” fall back on its side.
Savo Heleta and bambam, looks like we’re in agreement.
Heresy is inevitable and in fact even necessary for tackling these things.
At the end of the day, what I can’t stand most (and this is very true for Muslim countries with the exception of a few like Turkey probably), then it’s the intolerance towards free thought.
It’s funny when I think about it really, because I’ve always been the questioning and curious kind when it came to everything.
Everything except religion, because questioning religion - truly questioning religion - is taboo (at least according to my own experience).
It’s also the same even for those so-called “moderate” Islamic scholars like al-Qaradawi who encourage critical thinking but then always enforce a restraining rigid framework in which the activity could take place in.
Truth is elusive…So besides cherry picking, as Drima so aptly puts it, many people make a bet more than really believe (my opinion of course)…kind of..”well I really to believe this stuff, so I get to go to heaven or at least escape eternal ass barbecues”.
It is a real bitch…because when folks ask you if you are a believer…what they really mean is:
1. You believe in a book or books
2. You believe in certain people’s interpretations of that book
3. You accept certain people’s theories and philosophies as fact
4. Typically, you believe certain formulas will save you…like ah “I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savior”. That was certainly the magic formula back in the early 70’s. And there is one about accepting the Torah as the word of God and then Torah is often interpreted as about every commentary until around the 1700th century. And on and on and on.
Even to have faith or belief is very tricky…because it is pretty tough to ultimately define what faith means..or believing means…For example…in Christianity I guess you have to accept a certain theology…the Trinity, for example, which nobody can even define and they argue about like crazy.
So…as for folks like Drima’s preacher man…fuck him…he probably got a hard on scaring the shit out of little kids…big power rush…big man. Has he made the world a better place? I doubt that very much. Does he have a telepathic connection/communication with our Creator? If not…and I am certain he does not…then fuck him and the camel he rode in on.
Here is the thing, when it comes to religion and evidence there is the loop hole of the divinity of evidence and the blasphemy of questioning. ..
It isn’t a “loophole”, bambam. It’s called “faith” because it can’t be proven. If it could be proven, then it wouldn’t need to be taken on faith. It’s kinda like trust, that way. If you knew with absolute certainty that you could trust somebody, no trust would be required. Make sense?
Drima, I didn’t watch the video nor do I intend to unless you can say with a straight face that the rest of it is more “open minded” than the one sided and stereotypical presentation on the freeze-frame?
Hey Drima, by the way I relate to the story in your post. When I was about 7 years old one of our neighbors was really religious. I was over playing with his sons once and he started talking to me about God, asking me how often I prayed and so on and so forth, telling me all the ways I could go to hell if I didn’t do the right things, and so on. He scared the crap out of me. My father came home from work a couple days later and found me writing down my prayers and asked me what was going on, so i told him. Big public confrontation out on the sidewalk between my dad and the neighbor guy ensued. That’s one of the things that turned me agnostic for a long time.
it’s a loophole in my view because it extends beyond the argument of the divinity of the immediate text and it extends to sanctifying the interpretations and their authors. There is nothing to be taken on faith when it comes to Calvin’s history and sapianisim, but for Calvinists he’s revered and i might say he’s some sort of holy. So hence the loophole that with time what is to be taken on faith is an ever expanding circle of issues that were not holy to begin with and became so because of the intrinsic quality of religion to appose questioning.
If somebody is preaching to me about hell from a sincere and caring position…I can hang with that…that makes perfect sense that somebody is so filled with love that they want to save a fellow human from suffering. OK…fine.
But my experience with the firebreathers has been, probably, nearly 100% the opposite of that. I have typically found them to be; arrogant, angry, sexually frustrated/confused, loving the power rush they get in frightening people etc etc.
I know how things are in the real world of religion; it is muddle with greed, business, power struggles, confusion, people that blow hot and cold, people that are holding on to positions, jocking for positions and any number of ungodly motivations. I also know there are folk that are quite sincere in trying to live a “right” life.
If God is the angry, vengful being that one reads about (I just finished Lamentations where in the sieged city of Jerusalem “loving mothers were reduced to cooking and eating their own children”) in the Old and New Testements and much of what I read in the Quran (seemed like hell and destruction was a pretty constant theme)…then we are basically lost. I cannot worship a God that condems folks to eternal punishment…even the worst beasts in history don’t deserve that.
One can see the other side of God in religious works as well, of course. You see guys…it is still a bet. We can say what we might, however bravely, but when your ass is being dipped in the barbecue sauce, you will be singing the praises of Mormonism if that, as indicated in South Park, turns out to be the TRUE religion…So how do we bet? I am not brave enough to be barbecue…but can I believe under threat? Can you MAKE somebody believe something? NO you can’t. You CAN make them mouth certain formulas and you CAN make them behave in a certain manner but I believe most believers are also doubters.
So what does God want from us? Belief? Faith? Worship? Charity? War on infidels? Turning the other cheek? Study? Not eating pork? Dressing a certain way? And on and on and on and on.
God does not reveal Himself anymore…God does not talk to us like he used to. Does not appear in bushes and clouds and firery pillars anymore. We have a book or two…that is about it and no two people can fully agree on what that book is telling us…Telling us to believe…believe what?
Hey…I believe I’ll have another beer.
You’re lucky (or in good karma) to be born of such a woman. Way too many women hand their fears down to their offspring. Way too many children have to fight their way out of God-fearing.
Howie, I’ll have one with you..
halalhippie
Make it two and its a deal and I will gladly pay..unless I have to convert dollars to Euros. I think you are in Europe though…too bad…you may never taste the joy of a Seattle Downtown Brown Ale…nice Mexican salsa, some good chips and an evening near the beach…ay Dios mio…Been months since I did that one…Can make one wax philosophical and realize life can be good at certain moments.
Yummie…
Damn I have a staff meeting tonight and probably can’t drink…and now I am in the mood…
Curses…there is no God
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Often when i read around here, i find myself in a position where i have to defend the so-called wahabi’s (they prefer the name “salafi”), even though i regard much of their “corrections” in popular Islam as plain innovation.
From the beginning, Drima states that his school was wahhabi-influenced, which is probably true, as most of the religious education in the Gulf relies heavily on the purist teachings of Muhammad bin Abdel-Wahhab and the great salafi scholars of the 2oth century.
However, this gives the reader the impression that the punishment of the grave is something unique to wahhabism, while it is not. In fact all orthodox sunni muslims (traditionalists and salafi’s alike) believe in the punishment of the grave, and so does the Shia twelvers. The belief in the punishment of the grave is based upon the sayings of Muhammad - peace be upon him, his family and his companions and those who follow them. The ahadith about the punishment in the grave is considered Mutawatir Ma’nawi (mass-transmitted in its meaning), and is as such a part of the islamic creed according to orthodox islamic belief.
On a general note, i have noticed that it have became a general trend among both shia and non-muslims to attribute every aspect of Sunni Islam that they dislike as “wahhabism” - be it something unique to the salafis or not.
By the way: Hi Drima, Halalhippie and Howie, how are you guys? i just came by to say hello, and Drima’s post made me write like a novel or something.
Ahmad…
We missed you.
Actually…I believe hell is alive and well in most religious traditions…but I think most readers here are aware of that.
You strike me as a…well how’s this for a contradiction “an open-minded fundamentalist”…and when I say fundamentalist…I mean it in a more generic sense…i.e. one that takes a more literal view of holy writings.
I do agree with you that stuff that folks don’t like in a religion could attribute it to Wahhabi’s or Evangelicals or whatever…I think that is a valid point.
To me, there is a bigger picture here. Do you have an opinion on it? For me…there is no way I can reconcile an loving God with a an enternal torturer…I have heard the justifications…God loves you so much he gives you the choice etc. Sorry…that comes up way short of a reasonable explanation.
This is wh folks like Drima and I can’t be fundamentalists…and I did kind of try that route. I looked around at the world and found it far to nuanced, complex, varied, spectrum-like to accept pounding absolutes. Also…the Absolutists tend to leave little hope for the average Joe…99.9% end up in hell…I think there are certain Christian traditions that even narrow it down to about 120,000 that will be saved…That puts BILLIONS in the barbecue…
That is a loving God?
No…that is not a loving God.
I still admire your command of English…I have worked on a few second languages and just cannot touch the levels some of you guys reach. Amazing.
Howie
Missed you too
I must agree with you that i am a fundamentalist is that sense. I think i have a much more conservative approach to religion than many of you guys.
I was just trying to point out one detail that i noticed in Drima’s writings and elsewhere, namely that everything about islamic tradition that people dislike is labelled “wahhabism”, even when it is not unique to the salafi movement.
In fact, i have experienced the same thing among shiite Hezbollah-supporters here in Denmark when i meet with them, towards judaism. The Neturei Karta and similar minded groups are kinda portrayed as “the orthodox jews”, everyone else being labelled as “zionists”, and then they focus on one side of Neturei Karta’s policies and fail to see the big picture, which gives birth to sayings like “orthodox jews do not believe that the jews will eventually return to their homeland, that is only zionism” or similar sayings, which everyone well-versed in judaism and jewish tradition will find ridiculous.
But with regards to your question, i must first of all say that i understand the paradox from your view, but i must also point out that it appears to me that you’re seeing things in a christian perspective here. Because the caring, loving and father-like portrayal of God is - to my knowledge - unique to christians. Muslims do not put so much emphasis on the loving character of God as the christians do, while not denying that God loves either.
In traditional islamic theology (Ash’ari), believers who sin will not be punished eternally. The people that will be punished in eternity is the ones who the revelation has reached them, and yet they deny it. My religious teacher used to say:
“Man is capable of achieving more honor than the angels (Angels are believers and do not sin but have no choice), and capable of being lower than animals (animals do not have the choice either).”
Seen in that light, in my view at least, there are no contradictions. God loves and is merciful, but God is also our creator and our sustainer, and we also need to make ourselves worthy of his mercy by not refusing to believe in our creator after the message have reached us.
In my head, it makes perfectly sense, but i understand that others may not feel that way.
“Neturei Karta”
I always thought it was odd that a group that calls itself “guardians of the city” and that is based in Jerusalem would be against other Jews guarding the city and living in Jerusalem.
Maybe they should practice what they preach and move away from Israel. Instead they live in the safety provided by Israel (the REAL guardian of the city) and are free to pursue their holier-than-thou attitude and attempt to persecute other Jews for wanting to live where they live and wanting to guard what they guard.
If the Messiah comes, I think he would prefer it if the city is still standing in a land that still exists.
Did’nt know that that was the meaning of the name. Is’nt there supposed to be a “ha-” in the word, like the arabic “al-”? What do i know…
Anyway, my knowledge of them is very superficial. But i have heard that one of their rabbi’s actually left Israel, and that a branch of them hold it illegal to recieve any services of the Israeli state.
Ahmad…
Your viewpoint agrees with the viewpoint of many Christians…evangelical types mostly…almost exactly…
And there is certainly scriptural support for such a view…especially in the New Testament…but there is also much that would conflict with that viewpoint. Actually, part of your viewpoint is similiar to what I have seen in Catholicism as well…
But this is why I can’t be a fundamentalist and I fully realize and fear I could be wrong. But if I were a Muslim…I would be a Sufi for certain…I am kind of a Jewish/Christian/Hindu/Buhddist as it is…if I am honest with myself…
I see the picture and I see there are too many things horribly wrong with the picture…I cannot reconcile a vicious life being followed by the promise of even more misery…it renders life meaningless for most of God’s creatures. Just a small elitist heaven…what a horrible thought…I shudder. I am sure the Evangelical heaven would be filled with white people in pick-up trucks and gun racks, at picnics eating deviled-egg sandwiches…None of you guys would be there…that is for sure.
So I revolt from the thought…as I have said before…somewhere under the huge pile of manuer…I believe there is a pony. If not…then life is mostly a very very bad idea.
On the Jewish thing…geez…even a most basic review of the even the first couple books of the Bible would clearly demonstrate you cannot seperate Judaism from “the Land” or Jerusalem…I mean believe or disbelieve the validity of Judaism…but the arguement those guys come up with…you are correct…wishful thinking, ignorance, laziness, blindness or all put together.
Ahmad…
When it comes to choice…fine. So you give your kid choice because you love him…and you punish him,,,even severely for screwing up…but you don’t cook him in the barbecue for 97 trillion years!!! And you forgive him…you ultimately forgive him when the time is right.
God is our father and creator…I would expect even more from God.
But Howie, it still seems like you fail to understand my position. First of all, i do not see God as a father in the sence that you can relate between the relationship between father and son and the worshipper and the creator. That was my point from the beginning - to me, you seem a little influenced by christian theology in your way of seeing all this.
In my view, you cannot compare these things to each other. The right that God enjoins upon his creation is uncomparable with anything inter-human.
Furthermore, i do not see where i have stated that the people who eventually will reach salvation is only 99% of humanity, like you portray it.
“I see the picture and I see there are too many things horribly wrong with the picture…I cannot reconcile a vicious life being followed by the promise of even more misery…it renders life meaningless for most of God’s creatures. Just a small elitist heaven…what a horrible thought…I shudder. “
Most of gods creatures? We’re talking about mankind here, buddy
No, but i do not quite get it, i do not believe that i’ve portrayed that picture. When man is confronted with the revelation and he until his death continues to refuse it, then shall he remain in hell. Small elitist heaven? I dont get it.
Anyway, i understand how it does not make sense in your head, because your understanding of God is different than mine. In my understanding, mankind were not created EXCEPT to worship his Creator, God. That is the reason of man’s existence. If he then in his life is confronted with God’s message, and he chooses to disbelieve in it, then it is God’s right to punish him - by which right would the disbeliever claim mercy, when he spend his whole life disbelieving in the merciful? It makes perfectly sense in my head.
Anyway:
You see, “sufi” is from Arabic “tasawwuf”, which is a science of purifying the inner aspects of yourself. There are even salafi’s who are sufi’s (some of the modern scholars of the Muhammadiyah organization). It is not a special sect or creed, rather there are people attached to the sufi tradition among sunni’s, shia’s and salafi’s alike. I will write more about this over at my blog someday.
But if I were a Muslim…I would be a Sufi for certain…
I would’nt say that if i were you… I’m a “sufi” in the traditional islamic meaning of the word
On the Jewish thing…geez…even a most basic review of the even the first couple books of the Bible would clearly demonstrate you cannot seperate Judaism from “the Land” or Jerusalem…I mean believe or disbelieve the validity of Judaism…but the arguement those guys come up with…you are correct…wishful thinking, ignorance, laziness, blindness or all put together.
Actually there is something in Judaism conflicting with their view, since they believe that the Holy Land is eternally theirs, while Judaism teaches that it will be returned to the jews some day. They do not like this about judaism, so they attach it to zionism instead. Exactly like people are doing it with the Salafis: “We like Islam, but we do not like stoning - thats a wahhabi thing!”, or just to mention the punishment in the grave which many reformist-oriented of muslim background disagree with.
—–
Guys! i was just supposed to say hello!! look what you have made me do… damn.
Ahmad,
I think Aramaic uses the -a ending to mark emphatic nouns. The ha- prefix is a Canaanite/Hebrew invention. Aramaic doesn’t have it.
The first noun is in the construct state, of course.
AB…stuffy Irish intellectual…are you sure you are not English…or God forbide…French?
Ahmed…
A good part of my comments are more general and not all directed to you. I am pretty familiar with your position and it is quite Christian (Evangelical) in nature…that the first and foremost…BELIEF is what wins you the big prize…and that fits in perfectly with what Drima is struggling with here. So then it comes down to the correct belief? In the God of Moses, in Jesus…and which theology? Most Evangelicals I know, for example…would right off the what, 1/2 billion Catholics straight into hell for being idle worshipers…1 billion Muslims would not stand a chance nor Hindus nor Buddists. Jews…we are a parculiar case and they just can’t quite make up their minds about us.
So then is Islam “THE” religion? Surely there are believers, for example suicide bomber types, that you would reject though they believe quite devoutly. What is the right formula.
And yes…we have an enormously different concept of God…I don’t believe at all that we were put on earth to worship God…And my comments about God are purposefully anthrophromorphic because I just can’t communicate about the “Grand Empheral Being/Unbeing Whatchamahuggie”…Frankly…having a concept of God is beyond me…I gave up and went back to a guy with a beard on a throne…about the same vision I had when I was four.
I guess I believe that maybe nobody is even close to the truth about God and life…I think that is pretty much what I believe…except instinct tells me the best we can do is the old Hillel/Jesus thing…”do onto others” That alone would make the world close to a paradise.
I like you Ahmad…we should go have a beer together…eh, er …I mean a bottled water.
Drima, this genious religious was manipulating you (but not only) and wanted that you become a docile sheep
Catholic priests and nones used to have such methods too
“or God forbide…French?”
all right openmindness , good lord !
Ahmad i find it interesting that you don’t see the muslim’s view of god as a loving one (besides it being one of his names) muslim’s use the phrase “bism allah al rahman al raheem” more often than anything else in the whole religion. That should at least make him a bit merciful … from the idea that you have painted in your head he’s less merciful than “some” humans since he sets the rules and he tells the majority of earthlings “you loose! HA. since i gave you the illusion of choice”
It sounds fine when you are born into a religion and you tell others to make that choice, but when the natural environment for most people is that religion defines “my community” that choice seems a bit less obvious and a bit more life threatening. imagine what would happen to you if you converted publicly ? that’s what you are condemning others to when they make that obvious choice.
believing in a “rahman(creator)” who created everything in a way for the majority of earthlings to end up suffering and tell them “you had a choice” sounds hardly merciful.
You get the picture ?
Bambam…
There is a whole other related issue regarding choice or free will, which is “accident of birth”…What “choice” did Uday Hussein, Saddam’s son, have to become a decent guy? I think of Ma Barker in the USA…From birth, she raised her boys to become criminals. In the LA area, you see multi-generational gang families…grandpa to grandson out of the front porch drinking…I guess you have choice, but you can only choose from what is available and there are many factors and pressures that influence, even FORCE that choice. Just ask Uday.
He had a choice not to become even worse than his daddy.
He also had a choice to run away and live somewhere outside Iraq, not speaking up or doing anything else.
Saddam’s sons knew how to be decent, they just chose not to be.
AB…
I disagree…He was trained from a very early age to be a psychopath…He was FORCED to commit murder and torture people…from the youngest of ages. This is what he was surrounded by and brainwashed to be. Very very few folks can withstand that and become good little Boy Scouts. You love history…when raised in environments such as that…only a select few stood up and walked a righteous path…most times the fruit rolls very close to the tree.
Are you on the Guinness again?
Howie…
There have been so many evil dictators with children. And most of those children managed to do so much better than Saddam’s stupid kids.
Think of Khomeini’s grand son:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husain_Khomeini
Or Stalin’s daughter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_daughter
AB…
Well…you are talking about the the gross exceptions…not the typical situation…
A friend of mine just left…her sister went out and got drunk, because their dad just got so drunk with their mentally ill brother that he pissed himself and their other brother, who just got out of prison…was pretty ticked off too.
That, my friend…is the norm.
Just like in very good families somebody can go very bad.
Nice piece, loved it!
Well, being chained in front of Britney Spears is an eternity better than being chained in front of Celine Dion. Just so you know ;).
Drima,
This reminds me of the time they taught me in school that when you’re doing your business on the toilet you must never be facing in the direction of Mecca. And therefore extra care had to be used when planning and designing your toilets and bathrooms. I used to get so anxious whenever I used one of the toilets at home, because it faces west, and I had to be careful not to angle myself in a certain direction in case I was facing Mecca. Imagine what a stressful situation that was.
Don’t worry. Unless you also look down at a very specific angle, you will just look towards the stars.
A good part of my comments are more general and not all directed to you. I am pretty familiar with your position and it is quite Christian (Evangelical) in nature…that the first and foremost…BELIEF is what wins you the big prize…
Not “Evangelical”, but Protestant Evangelicals are just a vocal subset. Justification by faith, alone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide
Is the core principal that Protestants developed to counter what they saw as widespread corruption of Christianity by the Catholic Church.
The other (major) Protestant reform was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
Which amounts to an outright dismissal of all dogma and doctrine that the the Catholic Church evolved over time, and which isn’t based on the actual scripture.
Not really very important today, but since that was the basis for the Reformation in Europe I didn’t want it being attributed to Evangelicals in the US
I’m Protestant, but I don’t really believe in justification by faith alone. There’s a saying amongst some Protestants (and I like those Protestants!) that “Faith without works is dead” and I believe that. Talking the talk is good, but if somebody is not incorporating any of the teachings of Jesus into the way the way they live their life and they think of themselves as a good Christian, they are probably mistaken about that.
And on my final note, I’ve studied Islam a little bit and while there are some similarities when it comes to salvation, there are some very big differences too. Not that I want to get into them… just saying!
Howie, i will write later. I think what that i have explained myself in a wrong manner. Bottled water sounds fine
Ahmad i find it interesting that you don’t see the muslim’s view of god as a loving one (besides it being one of his names) muslim’s use the phrase “bism allah al rahman al raheem” more often than anything else in the whole religion.
I find it interresten that you do not even bother to read what i was saying. First of all, this is what i said:
But with regards to your question, i must first of all say that i understand the paradox from your view, but i must also point out that it appears to me that you’re seeing things in a christian perspective here. Because the caring, loving and father-like portrayal of God is - to my knowledge - unique to christians. Muslims do not put so much emphasis on the loving character of God as the christians do, while not denying that God loves either.
What i said is that muslims disagree with the christian portrayal of the loving God, not denying that he is loving. And i never said that God is not merciful.
from the idea that you have painted in your head he’s less merciful than “some” humans since he sets the rules and he tells the majority of earthlings “you loose! HA. since i gave you the illusion of choice”
I do not buy that strawman. God is The Most Merciful, no one is equal to God in mercy. What Islam disagree’s with is the Father-like nature of God, which gives birth to the comparison between God-Slave and Father-Son. I disagree with that model, because you cannot compare the creator (God) to the created (a father), according to the Qur’anic verse that i am sure you are familar with: “Leisa kamethlehi shay’”. I really do not wish to explain further as it pretty clear what my position is.
Is it not true that a father has the seed that creates life?
You say that God created life as well.
Fathers love their children (their creation).
You said that God loves it’s creation as well.
I’m not familiar with this “Leisa kamethlehi shay’” can you translate for me so that I can understand your position?
Well basically it means something like “there is nothing like Him at all”. I’m not really strong in translating Arabic into english, sorry.
I think in essence what Ahmad is trying to say is that he rejects Christianity’s portrayal of a distinctly male god that is perceived as humanlike and cast in a parental, father figure role more than anything else.
Islam rejects this concept of God, simply because it assigns a specific gender (and human role) to the Creator. Ahmad, if I interpret him correctly, is saying that the Islamic concept of an unfathomable omniscient, omnipresent Creator, goes way beyond the scope of our simplified human perspective, and certainly defies our attempts at pigeonholing God according to very human perceptions of traditional parental roles.
Sheema…
But that is really nothing new…you get the same concepts in Judaism and Christianity for certain…and likely in Hinduism…
People and the holy books use anthropomorphisms, because…as I noted earlier, it is just to hard to talk about God in any other way…at least for your average Joe. For example…in Hebrew, one name for God is “ain sof”…”that which has no end or limitations”.
This is hard stuff to talk about. We could spend multiple incarnations trying to define God.
I still think the key issue is what we believe God’s job is…how much and/or how little he engages with Man, responds or does not respond to prayer, favors one religion or action over another…you know…how does God manifest in regular Lunchbucket Joe’s life. How are we supposed to be acting and how do we really find out. Two Muslims believe in God…one is a kind, intellectual…say like an Ahmed…the next guy blows himself up in a mall…both believe they do God’s “will”.
So whether God is a “dude” or an essence or energy or “ain sof” is not as important as His role and how that is made know and how do we know about these things with any certainty.
Ahmed…how about beer flavored water…no alcohol?
Howie, most days now I even have trouble deciding whether the bugger really is out there or not…
Sheema…
Well…I have a bigger problem…I fully believe he is out there…but it frightens me that He does not appear to be too engaged with us. I have no illusions about how cruel and unfair life is and how utterly and completely random it appears. Yet I have witnessed miracles…and for other reasons I am a believer…but I am not a lemming marching over a cliff and piping about how I have not doubts…perfect faith and all that, because I do not.
Me…I don’t want a life that is about “the pie in the sky when you die by-and-by” as the famous Afro-American preacher…the Rev. Ike used to put it…I want to know why the hell we are on this so terribly often inhospitable, cruel, dangerous and yet beautiful, awe-inspiring planet.
Sheema…have long been fascinated by something…something very simple. With all the pain and suffering…and I work in a job with TONS of pain and suffering…have you noticed that probably 90% of the time when you ask somebody “how are you?”…they typical smile and say “fine”…Does anybody here see the irony or inconsistency in that…And I can tell you about people that lost their ability to walk, never could walk, folks with horrifically disabled kids and on and on and on.
there is ‘truth’. the paradox is when we say there is no truth, we are actually stating a truth- a firm belief we have based upon the faith we have upon limited knowledge. you see it works both ways. Either there is a God or not. who has the most evidence to support their side? Religion may not be the help to solving that question. Instead look to nature. look to the laws of nature.
there is no ‘truth’? Look into the eyes of the needy of the hurt and find out why it creates feelings deep inside. -because you have not found it does not mean it does not exist. - because you do not believe it -does not mean it does not exist.
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