Ever since I’ve started voicing my views on faith more openly online and in real-life, I’ve received mixed reactions from readers, friends and family.
Many are concerned, a few are offended, and others are cheering me on. But ultimately, many of these reactions have been misguided, because of the semantics and hermeneutics in regards to the word faith.
No, I’m most certainly not an atheist and never will be. No, I did not descend into a nihilistic empty existence. No, I haven’t dismissed all aspects of religion. No, I don’t wish to see religion’s complete eradication from the face of the earth. And hell no, I’m not going to “re-embrace” traditionalist Islam “back again” - ever.
Thanks, but no thanks.
I never really did embrace it to begin with anyway. In fact, the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims never have either and never will. Like me, they were just born into it. They were indoctrinated into it.
They were gradually talked into tragically devaluing their God-given reason and making it subservient to revelation, (something traditionalist Islam sadly demands).
Worse, most of them simply go on with their lives without any deep second-thoughts about a belief system that isn’t really theirs, but one which was constructed for them by their parents, the schools they studied in and the houses of worship they revere.
It is the dangerous booby-trap. It is the easy unexamined life dominated by unexamined faith. It is apathy. It is the blue pill of The Matrix.
It. Is. Bliss.
(The Blue Pill of The Matrix)
Defining Faith
It is now abundantly clear to me that faith is a word which holds radically different meanings in different minds.
It is something with dynamic multiple dimensions, and one that has taken me years of mental torture, and psychological misery to better understand and decipher.
We bicker passionately and contest the other’s views about it even though we’re often essentially talking about the same thing.
We react aggressively and feel provoked because we falsely assume its definition is the same on all sides involved.
We waste time and energy debating it, before we’ve even attempted to epistemologically examine and dissect with the mighty sword of reason just what the heck it entails in the first place.
So what is it? What is faith anyways?
Well, philosophically speaking and simply put, I define faith as the belief in something without the rational and empirical evidence to back it up. Hence, in the presence of evidence, one would not require faith.
Using that definition as my basis, I’ve dissected seven different categories of faith which profoundly impact us all in our everyday life. Some of them are good, and others, horrendous. In the next series of posts I do my best to explain each category with clear examples.
Category #1: Good Non-Rational Faith
Category #2: “Good” Non-Rational Faith
Category #3: Bad Non-Rational Faith
Category #4:
Category #5:
Category #6:
Category #7:
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 40 comments… read them below or add one }
Drima…
Man did I wake up early this AM…I have offices both away, but also IN my home…so that is a blessing and a curse…
Anyhow…good luck on this course. It will certainly create debate. This path you are taking…it will be long, irregular and filled with pits and traps. Ultimately…in terms of making some sense out of life, I don’t think reason will do the trick nor with faith. Maybe you see that already and perhaps that is why the Sufi leanings.
I think mysticism is the only hope for an real discovery of important theologic and other kinds of ultimate truths. Intellect will take you just so far, look at all the commentaries in all the great religions…it is unpeeling an onion that is endless. And…I also have my doubts about mysticism…you saw my joke about the Wailing Wall? Well, that has been my experience to this point.
But this remains an important endeavor. I hope the debate to follow will be one of discovery and not deteriorate into the name-calling junk. It is a subject that frustrates me to no end, yet is of utmost importance to me.
Can we get at any certainty when it comes to truth about God? So far, the answer for me is a resounding NO. Even those I know who are of enormous professed faith, I am able to watch as their belief systems warp, change, evolve and, in many cases, deteriorate into some kind of extremism.
So…I await what is to follow
Good luck
‘No, I don’t wish to see religion’s complete eradication from the face of the earth.’
Why not? How many agnostics do you see going around blowing themselves up in the name of ‘maybe yes, maybe no’?
Lynn, I think I have to play the Stalin card.
“the belief in something without the rational and empirical evidence to back it up.”
In other words, a hunch or a guess. The problem comes when a person decides that his guesswork is The Truth.
As for Andrew’s Stalin card - Stalin had a religious upbringing, and then became a devout believer in Marxism. No way was he an agnostic.
Stalin was an atheist and he was perfectly capable of murdering millions of people without believing in anything but himself.
Im gonna have to agree with Andrew, and Im I the only one who thinks Stalin had amazing hair!
Drima.
Have you encountered indifference yet. Cause personally I am not in the least bit phased by your chosen path! Now im not trying to be negative but the way I see it is that your a big boy now - you chose your path! Best of luck to ya!
What I dont understand is why people feel the need to voice their beliefs (be it islamic, christian, jewish, agnostic or aetheist) and shove it down people throats….perhaps someone can explain it to me?
Stalin had a mustache and he was perfectly capable of murdering millions of people without believing in anything but himself. Therefore mustaches make people evil.
All joking aside, atheism is not what killed those people. Blind unquestioning obedience by his followers is what allowed his totalitarian regime to commit such horrors. If we learn anything from this it should be that blindly following dogma and ideology inevitably lead to disaster.
Zoxuf….agreed
Digital…I will try to explain. To begin with…it seems pretty human that whenever folks feel real hot about something…they try to convince others to follow and there can be a variety of motivations behind that…money, power, a sense of securing your position etc.
From a religious perspective…and I think this is more of a Christian and Muslem thing the other major religious, is evangelical zeal based on the belief that God has revealed the one truth path to you and has also commanded you to convert the non-believers.
In terms of forceful agnostics and atheists…well…I think atheists feel very threatened that they could be very wrong…but anyhow…now we are getting into the psychological reasons again…and there are economic, social, political reasons as well…both from the religious and non-religious.
I don’t want to write on and on…but maybe that helps a bit?
Howie,
“I think mysticism is the only hope for an real discovery of important theologic and other kinds of ultimate truths. Intellect will take you just so far”
I think it’s BOTH reason and the intuition-based practice of mysticism. Reason is an amazingly powerful tool but it’s inadequate in certain cases.
Lynn,
there are numerous aspects of religion which I think are good and are worth keeping. Plus, here’s a question for you. Let’s say religion gets wiped off the face of the earth. What do you plan to replace it with? How do you plan to fill the void?
Andrew,
The difference between the killings of Stalin is that it wasn’t in the name of Godlessness, whereas those by religion are precisely because of a literalist reading of sacred texts. But ultimately though, the truth is that bloody shit like this happens because of a lack of basic empathy towards other fellow human beings.
Don Cox,
“In other words, a hunch or a guess. The problem comes when a person decides that his guesswork is The Truth.”
Precisely. The problem is not faith per se but when *dogmatism* gets mixed with faith. Hence my jihad for reason and desire to plant seeds of doubt. And given my definition above, I’m obviously talking about non-empirical, non-rational faith.
Digital,
“Have you encountered indifference yet.”
Yup. It’s inevitable.
“What I dont understand is why people feel the need to voice their beliefs (be it islamic, christian, jewish, agnostic or aetheist) and shove it down people throats….perhaps someone can explain it to me?”
For me, I’m simply voicing them, not shoving down anyone’s throats, and the reason is because of things like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_WKFpak9Mc&feature=rfw-rec-HM-fresh+div
Zoxuf,
“If we learn anything from this it should be that blindly following dogma and ideology inevitably lead to disaster.”
Agreed. And religion tends to fall into this because that’s the way it’s taught to and believed by the majority of those who are religious. Or at least, that’s the case according to my experience.
To question, to push the status quo, to try and reason is to be of lesser faith, and hence lesser piety in the eyes of those who are religious and vested in the interpretations of sacred texts and preaching them.
Stalin’s killings were in the name of Marx and Lenin. That neither of the two had intended quite such a slaughter is irrelevant. I am sure G-d didn’t have war and murder in mind when He gave humanity the Quran.
There is no difference between religious fundamentalists and communist fundamentalists. Both practice their ideology to such a degree that the original idea behind the ideology is replaced with the implementation details.
The Islamic state is where the state replaces Islam. And a communist state is where the state replaces communism.
Stalin’s killing were not in the name of “godlessness”, they were in Stalin’s name. Stalin himself is Stalinism’s equivalent to Islamic fundamentalism’s Allah. And just like Al-Qaeda are not murdering in the name of Stalinlessness, Stalinists did not murder in the name of godlessness. You are focusing on the wrong attribute. Atheists are not just people who don’t believe in Allah. They are also people who believe in something else. Just like theists are not necessarily people who believe in the Jewish god (Allah). Hence atheist ideologies are not necessarily defined only by their dismissal of (any) gods. Just like theist ideologies (or religions) are not defined only by their belief in gods as such but also by what and how many gods they believe in.
Hitler’s race theories, Stalin’s and Mao’s class theories, Al-Qaeda’s idea about Allah are the same type of thing. There is no qualitative difference between believing in a false theory about humanity, a false theory about society, and a false religion about Allah.
Human “races” do not demand that we murder all those who do not belong to certain such races, human “classes” do not demand that we murder all those who we find to be members of the “wrong” classes, and Allah does not demand that we murder everyone who happens to disagree with our own particular interpretation of parts of some holy book and some other stuff we made going along.
I have met many religious people for whom that absolutely isn’t true and many non-religious people for whom it is.
Stalin and Al-Qaeda are not blindly following dogma. They make everything up as they go along. I do not know less dogmatic people than Stalinists and Al-Qaeda. The constant change of their ideologies to allow for new enemies to be “evil” and for new friends to be suddenly allowed in is the opposite of dogma. Remember when China suddenly became an enemy of the Soviet Union? Or when Al-Qaeda can never quite figure out whether the Americans, the Jews, or the Shiites are the worst of the worst? Or when the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood starts accepting money from heretical (to Sunni extremists) Shia Muslims funding their war against the Jews (who are not heretical according to Sunni Islam and who have never claimed that a false caliph must be obeyed)? Or when Stalin made a pact with Hitler (and vice versa)? Those extremists are some of the most pragmatic people I have ever heard of.
You know, blaming blindly following dogma and ideology is so 20th century. I think it’s just a way to feel better about oneself. “Yeah, but those people are all blindly following some evil ideology. I am not. I am better.”
You know who is blindly following dogma? The good guys are. They are the ones trying to figure out how new situations can be treated using the established principles.
That’s why we end up with things like Guantanamo bay, trying to find a compromise between our dogma (cannot treat prisoners like that on American soil) and necessity (those are not normal prisoners like the ones for whom our principles were invented). Al-Qaeda does not have such problems with dogma. They invent new G-d’s will every day if they have to. Torture is not forbidden for them, they don’t have such principles. They have exceptions for EVERYTHING.
I have no doubt that there is not a single prohibition in Islam that Al-Qaeda would not happily lift for their own purposes if it gives them a dirty advantage in war. Have a month in which fighting is forbidden? No problem, there is obviously a special exception if the enemy is a Jew/American/Shiite/Sunni/gay/some dude named Brian/some dude not named Brian/whatever. That’s pragmatism to a degree you simply won’t find among non-extremists.
Ever wondered why terror attacks become more violent during Ramadan? Pragmatism.
Ever wondered why terror attacks in Iraq are usually directed at civilians and market places? Pragmatism. The terrorists attack whom they can, not whom they claim to fight.
The pragmatic will happily make a deal with the devil. The dogmatic will not.
Drima, very thoughtful and I look forward to seeing the rest of your postings. One thing that caught my eye was your definition of faith:
“I define faith as the belief in something without the rational and empirical evidence to back it up. Hence, in the presence of evidence, one would not require faith.”
I say that caught my eye because as a Mormon Christian, that’s actually almost precisely how we define it. Paul in Hebrews 11:1 says as much saying that faith is “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” And in the Book of Mormon the prophet Alma says similarly in Alma 32:21 “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.”
Of course from there you veer right off into the question of “ok, how the heck do I know if said things are true so that I should hope for them?” and from there into questions of blind obedience without thought versus reasoned testing of spiritual claims. The rest of that chapter (Alma 32 which can be read here http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32 ) is actually a very interesting discussion of the whole topic of how one can go from faith to knowledge. He outlines it as a step by step process of experimentation. Not blind obedience without question, but quite the opposite, a questioning process. An open-minded questioning based on seeing claims that sound like they would be good if true, which then leads to a willingness to try out what is asked in small increments such that one gains confidence and little building blocks of experimentation turn into more and more building blocks of spiritual experiential knowledge. And then as you so aptly put in a way very similar to Alma means that faith has gone dormant and been replaced by knowledge.
So Alma discusses faith as a dynamic process of growth with a constant willingness to go out on a limb here and there, to push the boundaries because you hope there’s something good out there and you’re willing to give it a shot to see. An honest, thinking shot. With Buddha-like patience required for sure, but not Puritan-like blind obedience.
My 2 ‘irsh, look forward to the rest of your posts.
Great points, Andrew.
That’s a nice way of looking at it that I haven’t contemplated much I admit.
I mean let’s take human rights. In a lot of ways how we hold on to them and revere their importance is a form of dogma - *good* dogma.
You can probably argue empirically and rationally that the concept of human rights isn’t backed up by enough evidence. We could reduce ourselves to “animals” and come up with a ranking for different races like the Nazis did. Heck, recently there was also that British scientist who said DNA evidence shows that Africans are less intelligent than other races.
So yeah, I can see what you’re saying. That’s not to say science leads to evil or is evil. Oh no, it’s just that it needs to be grounded in a sound ethical framework that values all human life and sees it as equal… even if the idea of human rights is held on to dogmatically.
Jamal,
I think you’re the first Mormon I’ve ever interacted with in my life. Welcome, and thanks for the comment. More posts coming soon.
Jamal and Drima…
You guys should go out and have a drink together…
Whoops!!!
Andrew,
I agree with most of what you said in the first half of your post.
Before we get too deep into the topic of dogma I think it is best we define it. The definition I am using is the following from Wikipedia.
“Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.”
”Stalin and Al-Qaeda are not blindly following dogma.”
Stalin is debatable I suppose, but at the very least his followers were blindly dogmatic in their support for his regime.
Al-Qaeda may not be following the mainstream interpretation of Islam but their beliefs appear very much dogmatic to me. Given the extremism of Al-Qaeda, I find it hard to believe that they are not genuinely convinced they are following Gods undisputable truth.
That being said, there is nothing particularly special about Stalin or the leaders of Al-Qaeda. There are millions of people like them scattered all over the world but as individuals they are mostly harmless. The danger is in the type of society that allows for such individuals to gain a position of power and influence. A society made up of people that do not think for themselves or question what they are told as long as it is done in the name of God or country. Nothing disgusts me more than the abusive use of faith and patriotism as a shield against criticism.
”You know, blaming blindly following dogma and ideology is so 20th century.”
If we do not learn from the mistakes of the past we are doomed to repeat them.
”You know who is blindly following dogma? The good guys are. They are the ones trying to figure out how new situations can be treated using the established principles.”
Dogma may not always cause harm but it is very dangerous. When people stop justifying things for themselves it tends to put too much power into the hands of too few.
Drima,
I do not see dogma particularly useful under any circumstance I can imagine. While people may accept things like human rights dogmatically I am of the opinion that no set of beliefs should be above criticism. I think of it like this, if a belief is worth holding it should have nothing to fear from debate.
I doubt it.
Al-Qaeda, I am convinced, absolutely know that what they are doing is criminal and against G-d’s will. They occasionally betray themselves.
Anyone who advocates terror attacks during Ramadan must know that they are not following Allah’s law. Anyone who compromises like Al-Qaeda constantly do must know that they are not following an absolute law of a god.
But they are also superstitious. That’s why they didn’t kill the law Jew of Afghanistan or burn the Torah scrolls in his synagogue. (You never know what Allah might do if you kill the last of his people somewhere.)
Nobody who has complete trust in Allah has to hijack other people’s aircraft for their attacks. Allah’s loyal followers are blessed with the wisdom and patience to create whatever tools they need themselves. Al-Qaeda know that and the main part of their strategy is to keep people’s minds off that fact. If Al-Qaeda really believed that they are Allah’s loyal minions, they would not acknowledge that the other side has all the good toys.
Every time you see a church with a lightning rod, you see a place where science has, legitimately, trumped faith. And every time you see an Al-Qaeda minion wearing glasses made in Italy and using a mobile phone made in Finland, you see an Al-Qeada minion who does not really believe that he is Allah’s loyal servant who has no need for godless items.
This is Al-Qaeda’s big secret. Talk about blue pills and red pills…
Al-Qaeda are not dogmatic, they are highly pragmatic. And they are not secure in their faith. If they were, they would be proud to be tortured in Gitmo instead of complaining about it. (The same applies to “Palestinian” terrorists. If they were CONVINCED of their faith, surely being killed by the Israelis would be the best thing that could happen to them. But instead they claim that it is so and then whine when it happens. There is no faith there.)
No, they were scared blind by his power.
I think the only place where the blindly dogmatic support for a regime really works is in Nazi Germany. Hitler really did have blindly dogmatic supporters. (I think Obama has them too. But who is going to argue that Obama’s followers are evil?)
Howieee,
funny! And why aren’t you on Skype dude?
Zoxuf,
under that definition of dogma you posted, I completely agree with you even in regards to things like human rights.
“Nothing disgusts me more than the abusive use of faith and patriotism as a shield against criticism.”
Same here. Absolutely, and I’ve seen enough of this happening that it makes me sick.
“When people stop justifying things for themselves it tends to put too much power into the hands of too few. ”
Which is the case of how religion is “learned” and practiced by most religionists, at least based on what I’ve seen.
Too many Muslims place too much trust in so-called spiritual leaders and scholars, many if not most of whom are nothing but power-hungry morons who will shut you up every time you try to question and will tell you your doubts are from the devil.
Ok, gotta chill out before I go on venting for half an hour.
More posts coming soon, but first I really gotta lay the foundation and all the necessary definitions so I can move on with harsh criticisms without creating misunderstandings due to semantics.
Drima, you are such an interesting human being. I feel like if we were to ever talk, we’d talk for like six hours straight.
most interesting post… looking forward to reading the next.
jamal - i’d be interested in reading more about the mormon faith… do you ever post about such?
faith …. i feel like i’m forever questioning…. it sure would be nice if there were some magic matrix pill.
Um Naif…
You don’t have to wait for Jamal…just look out on your street for young men in white shirts and ties riding bikes…You will learn all you care to know…
But if you are from the M.E. be careful…no booze, no coffee, no tea…
They do have a nice choir though
Um naif…
“faith …. i feel like i’m forever questioning….”
Hummm…I think you probably have a bad case of honesty, ability to observe, and a terrible disorder related to wanting the truth.
Too bad…horrible sickness you have. Tends to be chronic…lifelong condition…which might get worse with age.
Andrew,
“Al-Qaeda are not dogmatic, they are highly pragmatic. And they are not secure in their faith.”
I am not saying their interpretation of Islam makes any sense, but they are secure enough in their belief to blow themselves up and crash planes into buildings. This hardly seems pragmatic unless they are convinced beyond any doubt that it is what Allah wants and that they will be rewarded for doing so.
“No, they were scared blind by his power.”
Fear was part of his hold on power but he was also popular due to the state propaganda that exploited patriotism.
Some of them are. Bin Laden himself does not strike me as someone who really believes that he will go to heaven if he kills himself for Allah.
And then there is the issue with whether people who blindly follow orders really believe anything except that they have to follow orders. Who knows what the suicide bombers believe? But the people who send them certainly don’t believe the same thing.
AB and Z…
You both make great points…my father was nearly killed by a suicide bomber that believed in “the emperor”…Kamakazi pliot in WWII…South Pacific…and we have many for example…suicide missions by folks like the Viet Cong and and on…
I agree that many of these guys are truly idealists and very intelligent men. I know some have been individuals with learning disabilities and likely even mental retardation…So likely, like many things in life…there are multiple layers of cause.
I always think back to an interview of a mom of a suicide bomber from the West Bank that was going to have her house demolished for what her kid did and I have heard similar words before:
“My son was mentally retarded. He understood nothing, he was no terrorist nor political nor religious man. If the guys that sent him were such believers, why did they not go themselves”
I have heard stories of pay-offs to the surviving family, the virgin thing, glory, religion, fear of retribution to self or, especially, family…but I think most do it out of hate, belief that it is God’s will, brainwashing.
“You guys should go out and have a drink together…Whoops!!!”
Howie: Ha! I can drink any trader in Manhattan under the table. Of course I’m drinking ginger ale while they’re getting slammed on who knows what
Which has the positive side-effect of producing lots of good spilling-o-the-guts that I can remember and they can’t 
“jamal - i’d be interested in reading more about the mormon faith… do you ever post about such?”
Um Naief : Haven’t really blogged much about my faith honestly. There’s a good generic Arabic rundown at http://www.arablds.net and the standard English presentation at http://www.mormon.org If you want to get more into the back-and-forth of blogging Mormons, I like http://bycommonconsent.com/ or http://timesandseasons.org/ And of course I wouldn’t be a good Mormon boy if I didn’t say yes, would be happy to talk any time if you’re interested
“You don’t have to wait for Jamal…just look out on your street for young men in white shirts and ties riding bikes…You will learn all you care to know…”
Howie : Come on now, that was me once, I like to think I was a reasonably nice guy then as now
And in my defense, I never was a big fan of any of the door knocking stuff then either. But give a bunch of 19 year old kids credit for dedicating a couple years of their lives to something they believe in and is really hard instead of just partying. It’s a real positive character-builder for a lot of young men and women no matter what else you may think of them.
“But if you are from the M.E. be careful…no booze, no coffee, no tea…They do have a nice choir though”
Howie: LOL! True enough that.
Salamat all! It reminds me of Plato’s allegory of the cave, I haven’t really seen the Matrix but I got a good background now ( I will watch it, I guess). But I am glad you don’t follow the “ignorance is bliss” as S. Ali radialahu 3anoo said “there is no wealth like knowledge, and no poverty like ignorance” keep accumulating the wealth my friend but remember: keep the faith; for it is all around us but we are blinded like a horse with side eye blinds- if we just watch “nature” more and tv less, what a world this would be as Alan Watts said.
Zoxuf,
“This hardly seems pragmatic unless they are convinced beyond any doubt that it is what Allah wants and that they will be rewarded for doing so.”
Articulately stated. And herein, faith is a serious problem.
Sudanese Nubian,
“but remember: keep the faith”
But which faith, and how? Even Muslims amongst themselves and individually have different approaches to faith.
Jamal…
Oh…I am not really knocking the door-to-door Mormon stuff. Though I would have significant theologic arguments with you…I have had plenty of Mormon experience. Yes…y’all have your loonies…but by and large, practicing Mormons are respectful, wholesome (blond, white) friendly, and one of the more social decent religious groups I have ever encountered. The kids that have gone out to the Amazon and the mountains of Peru etc…hey…what can you say? Bet they don’t show up much in Sudan, Iran, or Saudia though…fried Mormon for breakfast i would think
Um Naif…even just the history of the development of Mormonism is an amazing story alone… the religious/revelation aspect..well fine…believe what you believe…but quite an achievement in social organization and this religion is a pretty recent arrival on the scene…less than 200 years old.
Truly a cool site Drima…
Agnosticism is not Atheism. Atheists tend to become just as bogged down with bull as any zealous religious person.
Drima, I guess if religion was wiped off the face of the Earth people would have to fill the ‘void’ by being more productive. Maybe they could find a cure for diseases and poverty?
Lynn and Drima…
If religion were wiped off the face of the earth…people would replace it with other belief systems and be just as nutty about it…
I think just about everybody has religion…I have seen, for example, cases where people get religious about their sport team…they have literal shrines the the house, study it constantly, attribute some kind of crazy power to them, worship them and will fight for them. And the same goes for politics, philosophical positions (like Stoicism), patriotism, nationalism ad nausea.
So I prefer religion to all the above…but I take something along the lines of Drima’s approach or Um Neif…I am zealous about cautious and examined faith and have almost zero trust for leaders and “revealers”
There are situations where only religion can be the needed cure:
http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/337894/The_Power_of_Prayer
Salamat,
Keep the faith…yes Muslims have different versions, but isnt that what you are advocating? I like there is no intermediary force in Islam, ideally, but of course some people use the armour of Islam to divert legitimate criticisms and pervert the religion to their own guise. But keeping the faith is about not being nihilistic and enjoying this beautiful world ya habibi. I totally understand what you are going or went through and I love how you put it so eloquently; I commend you. Best of luck, but Drima one question:
Have you been to Sudan? Lived there?
Thanks!
AB…
Yes…with all my doubts…I believe in God, believe in miracles and believe it is a huge question why some people get miracles and some get “gornischt”
Drima : ‘there are numerous aspects of religion which I think are good and are worth keeping.’
I forgot to ask you, which aspects do you think are worth keeping and do you think they they are only able to be practiced within the frame of ‘religion’?
Andrew,
I’m sorry but that was lost on me. That prayer didn’t stop him from being killed did it? I do understand that prayer may help people through difficult times but there are other ways to get through them if you don’t believe in a religion. Also, there are times when people think that prayer is the answer and that is what they do instead of seeking medical treatment and they or their loved ones died for lack of treatment.
Lynn,
Agnosticism is not Atheism. Atheists tend to become just as bogged down with bull as any zealous religious person.
As I understand it Atheism and Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. One simply refers to belief and the other knowledge.
Howie,
If religion were wiped off the face of the earth…people would replace it with other belief systems and be just as nutty about it…
If God were somehow disproved tomorrow, I believe that major aspects of religion would survive as philosophies on how to live. However, they would no longer be able to reject criticism of specific tenets solely based on its supposed divine origin. This would allow for some much needed reform and create what in my opinion is a healthier society.
No. But it stopped him from being forgotten.
And it stopped him from showing fear. The Nazis wanted to be feared, not taken as a force that doesn’t compare with someone’s god.
It is because of people like Bonhoeffer that the Nazi ideology was replaced with a new culture in Germany. The country owes it to him and those like him. And that’s something religion could do while every other method failed. War beat Germany, but faith allowed Germany to rise again as a peaceful power.
‘…This would allow for some much needed reform and create what in my opinion is a healthier society’
I agree completely.
@Andrew- So the needed cure it to not be forgotten? There are other ways to not be forgotten aren’t there? I never even heard of him to be able to forget him. Unless maybe I did hear of him but I have forgotten. And, prayer is not the only path to bravery in the face of horror.
‘War beat Germany, but faith allowed Germany to rise again as a peaceful power’ You know more about German history than I do but I have to ask, faith in what? God or a specific religion? Faith in the German people? Faith in humanity?
What?
Germany needed a cure for its poisoned culture. People like Bonhoeffer and their faith were that cure. Germans needed something German to be proud of, something German that wasn’t part of the Nazi culture. Bonhoeffer gave Germany such a culture.
I don’t think most Germans know who Bonhoeffer was, but a major train station in Berlin is named after him, so I guess everyone there has heard the name.
France had her “resistance” to be proud of (after collaborating with the Nazis for years), Germany had its Confessing Church, soldiers like Stauffenberg, and politicians like Schuhmacher. Those people were desperately needed.
And you know what they had in common? They were fiercely dogmatic and uncompromising. Bonhoeffer didn’t give in to the Nazis even when he knew (not believed, _knew_) he was going to die the next day. Schuhmacher was dogmatically opposed to both the Nazi ideology and communism and spend ten years in concentration camps until the end of the war.
The Nazis on the other hand were very compromising and unprincipled. A quote commonly attributed to several Nazi leaders is “I decide who is a Jew”, referring to the fact that “useful” Jews were often allowed to live, while non-Jews suddenly “became” Jews when the Nazi government needed to get rid of them. There was no blind dogma there.
Blind dogma is good because it does set limits. The opposite allows for ever new definitions of good and evil. I think it is far better to integrate new developments into a system of established principles than to change principles for new developments.
The Nazis instituted new principles for Germany. Stauffenberg died defending the old German principles which had served Germany far better than Hitler’s fascism.
In order:
Yes, Germany is a Christian country.
No, not so much.
Yes, now; because of examples like Bonhoeffer and Stauffenberg.
Lynn,
You said: “I forgot to ask you, which aspects do you think are worth keeping and do you think they they are only able to be practiced within the frame of ‘religion’?”
My answer: Mysticism, and a great deal of the esoteric aspects which *are* empirically valid. The traditional aspects should be treated just as that… traditions, although not dogmatically.
More here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wX_W1BB_0M
Leave a Comment