Apparently the lovely Avigdor Lieberman is likely to become Israel’s next foreign minister, which is sort of great news for all Arab countries. I mean, think about it. With the appointment of Lieberman, you my dear Israeli readers can kiss goodbye the idea of Israel being the only democracy in the region. Eh, actually it was never the only democracy before this whole Lieberman thing to begin with. There’s Iraq too now, remember?
Either way, good luck trying to justify to the world the likely choice of this wonderful dude as the public face of Israel. And obviously, the whole “it was a reaction to Gaza” explanation isn’t gonna cut it. Lieberman is an appalling racist shithead, pure and simple, and quite frankly, I can’t wait for the “entertainment” ahead if all proceeds as predicted.
Should be fun seeing him and Clinton shaking hands and chilling together.
Meanwhile, why in Sanity’s name is Israel demolishing Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem? Let’s see what Haaretz says.
Israel has in recent days issued orders for the demolition of 80 Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem it says were built illegally.
But Palestinians say they cannot receive proper building permits from Israeli authorities, and the planned demolitions are means to assert Israel’s control over the disputed city.
Seriously, you’ve got to be freaking kidding me.
So, Israel happily continues expanding its illegal settlements - ones which have been opposed even by Reagan, the man the Red Elephants revere and worship - yet Palestinians building homes without cute permits deserve to have their homes demolished?
WTF? This is bullshit.
And hey, guess what, I’m not the only one concerned about this.
Israel is under increased pressure from the United States over settlement construction. In the past month, since Barack Obama was sworn in as U.S. president, Israel has received four official complaints from members of the new administration regarding various issues linked to West Bank settlements.
A senior government official in Jerusalem told Haaretz that the complaints represent a gradual increase in American pressure vis-a-vis settlement activity. “This is going to be one of the main issues that the Obama administration will be dealing with in the coming weeks and months,” the official said. “It is not going to be easy to argue with them.”
Four official complaints?
OOooo, dum dum dum, *scary violins playing in the background* … Israel must be trembling, I bet.
Right.
Only time will tell if those are empty words or signs of genuine pressure and change in US foreign policy under Obama to put a needed end to the expansion of Israel’s illegal settlements.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 44 comments… read them below or add one }
If Lieberman were an Arab, he would be called a “moderate”, hence this is how I will refer to him. The difference between him and Arab moderate is that Lieberman is a democrat and does not want to use violence to reach his goals.
Lieberman is not a worse public face than the Holocaust-denying Abu Mazen. Perhaps it is time for Israel to explain to the world that the same standards can apply for both sides.
I am sure “Palestinians” can get proper building permits in Jerusalem. I assume the fact that they can’t has to do with their refusal to cooperate with the Israeli government and that’s their problem. The Israeli villages in the West-Bank are supposedly “illegal” for the same reason, i.e. they were built without permission by the “Palestinian” government and the people who live in them cannot get such permits.
And yes, the demolitions are means to assert Israel’s control over the city. And Israel should assert control in its territory. Can anyone imagine the world worry about Saudi Arabia demolishing homes in Mecca? And Mecca hasn’t even been “Saudi” as long as Jerusalem was Jewish.
If the world puts “genuine pressure” on Israel to restore the idea of a Jew-free West Bank, how can I blame Lieberman for demanding an Arab-free Israel (which he isn’t even doing)?
I wouldn’t have voted for Lieberman. But whenever I read about how evil he is when in fact using the same standards any Arab leader with Lieberman’s attitude and opinions would be praised as a moderate or liberal and a gift from heaven, I cannot do anything but take his side.
I think this guy would make a good prime minister for Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majalli_Wahabi
I think Israel’s prime minister should be a military man. If Lieberman is unqualified for an important position, it should be because he really is unqualified, not because of his political positions which are FAR more moderate than the Arabs’ and wouldn’t be attacked as extremist or racist if it wasn’t for the fact that he was a Jew. (Want proof? Find one Arab politican with similar opinions, if you can, and check whether he is commonly referred to as a racist.)
The world is only opposed to “illegal settlements” because the world has agreed that a Jew-free West Bank is, for some reason, not only morally acceptable but also a worthy achievement. I disagree with that view. I think Arab towns in the Jewish-majority part of “Palestine” are just as justified as Jewish towns in the Arab-majority parts of “Palestine” (be they called Gaza, “West Bank”, or Transkordan). And the only reason those settlements are build and defended as they are is because the Arabs would not let the Jews live there without such defences. (And if I am not right about that, why didn’t the empty synagogues in Gaza survive?)
Lastly, I am not sure how good the advise really is. Whenever Israel did what the world wanted her to do, whenever Israel was less extremist, Israel was attacked again and more violently and the war continued. With the exception of Anwar Sadat’s brave visit to Jerusalem, EVERY TIME Israel has heeded other people’s advise, Israel got it in the neck. I think it’s about time Israel stopped listening to the well-meaning world.
The world can give advise to Israel again when the world has learned that Israel has the same right to make a moderate her foreign minister as the Arabs have not to be even that compromising in their attitude.
Lieberman advocates compensation for Arab refugees and emigrants. Once the first Arab leader will show that same “racist” attitude towards Jewish refugees and Jewish emigrants, we can talk about the evils of such “racism”.
Demolition of houses harms the peace efforts? What peace efforts? The “Palestinians” vote for Hamas and war? The rockets? Where are those peace efforts that could POSSIBLY be harmed by this?
Israel annexed Jerusalem and can hence do she wants within Jerusalem’s borders.
That’s how it works for Russia, Poland, Saudi Arabia, and all those other countries in the world. I don’t see why Israel should be excluded.
Saudi Arabia controls Mecca because they annexed it from the Hashemite Kingdom of Hejaz. And I don’t see the world worrying about Saudi Arabia demolishing houses in Mecca if those were built without a permit. And while one might claim that Mecca is legally Saudi Arabia’s property because the Hashemites at some point agreed to losing it, well the same applies to Jerusalem which according to the same Hashemite Amir was a part of the Jewish state in “Palestine”.
I think the world should worry about Mecca more than about Jerusalem. Or which city is more important?
Andrew, you’re not addressing the core issues but rather trying to find ways to justify them or make them seem less of a problem than they really are.
Lieberman is not a worse public face than the Holocaust-denying Abu Mazen.
True, but two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m not concerned with the standards the world applies here, but the ideals of liberal democracy. Abu Mazen denies the Holocaust? Shame on him. Lieberman advocates racist ideas that go against the values of liberal democracy? Shame on him too.
And yes, the demolitions are means to assert Israel’s control over the city. And Israel should assert control in its territory. Can anyone imagine the world worry about Saudi Arabia demolishing homes in Mecca?
Mecca is a simplistic and unfit example. The status of Jerusalem is more complex and contested. Moreover, it is holy to all the three Abrahamic faiths. Mecca isn’t.
The world is only opposed to “illegal settlements” because the world has agreed that a Jew-free West Bank is, for some reason, not only morally acceptable but also a worthy achievement. I disagree with that view.
So now the creation of a legitimate and viable sovereign Palestinian state is the equivalent of a Jew-free West Bank, and hence some implied form of anti-Semitism?
That’s a strategic smart way of reframing the issue for the sake of debate Andew, but come on.
Why can’t we just call a spade a spade?
The settlements are illegal, even Reagan opposed them. You want peace between Israel and Palestine? Great, then why don’t Israelis address the problem of the settlements seriously without trying to minimize it and make it seem like a small tiny issue.
I’m always happily the first person to criticize the bullshit being done on a daily basis by Hamas, Fatah, the Arab world and Muslims in general.
Why can’t we just be honest about the expansion of Israeli illegal settlements? And let’s please not get into the whole “God gave this land to the Jews” line of thinking.
Israelis need to be self-critical of the unhelpful moves being carried out on their side.
Drima, I would like you to conduct the following thought experiment…
I want you to prove Liberman’s racism, rather than taking its existence as a given. Should you do so, I may consider his nomination to the position of Israel’s Foreign Ministry to be problematic.
I wish you luck, seeing as you consider it to be a very simple matter.
i think this post takes a bunch of articles and draws wrong connections between them..
(a) if you look at a picture of the region where the homes are being demolished from 80 years ago you will see nothing.. it was open space.. not agricultural or farmland.. prior to that the area included a village of yemenite jews (where my family lived too) that was raised by unhappy arabs early last century.. i dont know anyone in my family asking to return but the village was built on legally acquired land.. the houses being demolished supposedly werent..
(b) there are indeed problems with arabs getting building permits in many parts of israel.. but there are also many arabs that do.. my mother lives in a roof top apartment in telaviv and she is jewish.. she owns the roof above her apartment and one day decided to renovate the place.. an envious neighbour made a complaint that she had not sought appropriate approvals and she now has a demolition order that is so ridiculous that i cannot describe.. my mothers renovations had been previously approved.. and the council is struggling to recognise its very own approvals.. also - my grandmother lives on a main street in telaviv and had renovated one of her two rooms many years ago with hard earned money she had saved.. it was beautifully done.. very much like the armenian quartern of old yaffo with wooden enclosures to the balconies with arches and a tiled roof.. one restoration order 15 years later and the whole thing was ripped out (at her expense!!) and half of a room was suddenly exposed to the elements because apparently this is how the building originally was..
(c) the legality or illegality of the settlements is much more complex than this post can carry.. it very much depends on the status of the land and its acquisition process.. so for example - the “settlement” of har homa (truly a suburb of jerusalem) was largely constructed on land acquired by jews pre 1948 that was confiscated by jordan after the war of independance.. similarly many of the gaza settlements were in part on land purchased for good value at their time.. other areas that havent been pose much more complicated questions..
i agree that a lot of it discriminates against palestinians.. i note however that they often discriminate unfairly against jews..
this is far from a simple situation..
Also, Drima… as long as Israel remains the de-facto sovereign of Jerusalem, the people living in the city are subject to its laws. Should people instead prefer to save the odd buck and build houses without the necessary permits and engineering supervision, then they should be familiarized with the law a bit more actively.
Israeli municipal councils rarely go all the way to demolition. We have court hearings, compromises, fines… I can see it quite often in my own city. We actually go all the way to demolition when the people in question have build in a way so utterly illegal as to be dangerous, or when they refuse to cooperate altogether.
So I’d say the Jerusalemites were playing at Acts of Protest Against the Illegal Government and got burnt. If they have no problem with taking the “occupier’s” public services and welfare, then they have to obey his laws as well.
No. The status of Jerusalem is only more contested because the Muslims contest it. Jews could contest Mecca if they wanted to, but they don’t. The fact that Jerusalem is more contested is a given, that’s why we discuss the issue. But why Jerusalem should be more contested cannot be explained by saying that it is. That’s like saying that it is right to shoot Mr X since Mr X was the man who was shot.
You are changing the subject from the Jewish villages to a sovereign Arab state. Apparently I was right and the two things are connected. Even you assume that OBVIOUSLY such a sovereign state cannot be expected to co-exist with Jews living in the same area. But somehow Israel is expected to live with Arab villages within its borders and when Lieberman speaks out against that, he is a “racist”.
Here’s the double standard. An Israel with Arab villages is acceptable and an Israeli politician who wants those Arab villages removed (or annexed to a “Palestinian” state) is a racist. But a “Palestine” with Jewish villages is not acceptable and apparently insisting that those villages should remain is also racist.
What do you mean “implied”? The demand that such an Arab sovereign state cannot contain Jewish villages is a completely open form of anti-Semitism.
Here’s the deal:
The Arabs rule over many many countries, most of them outside Arabia. They grant rights to the indigenous populations of those countries very rarely and usually only after decades of war.
I am perfectly willing to let Arabs live in countries formed out of their former empire and accept Arabic as a common language like English in the Commonwealth of Nations. I even accept an Arab state in Israel, call it “Palestine” if you will. And I will even accept a Jew-free Arab state in Israel if that is needed for peace.
But I will _NOT_ accept the idea that such a Jew-free state is some sort of right the Arabs have and that it is some sort of big Jewish evil and injustice towards the Arabs that Jews also live in that part of Israel.
And I will not accept the idea that an Israeli politician is a racist just because he advocates a much more light-weight version of the demands of “moderate” Arab politicians.
Otherwise I agree with Roman. If Israel is good enough to provide healthcare and welfare, public services and security (and it is a heck of a lot safer even in East-Jerusalem than in areas ruled by the PLO or Gaza), then Israel is also good enough to enforce build permits.
The “settlers” are not an obstacle to peace just as Israeli Arabs are not an obstacle to peace. But the people who think that either country must be free of the other ethnicity might be such an obstacle. Lieberman, however, is not one of them.
The biggest, in fact the ONLY, obstacle to peace is the constant attacks.
Everything else is just detail. Israel’s reaction to attacks is completely normal, if less violent than that of other country’s in that situation.
The fact that Jerusalem is a part of Israel is not an obstacle to peace for the same reason that Koenigsberg being a part of Russia was not an obstacle to peace between Germany and Russia. (And Koenigsberg actually meant something to the Germans and wasn’t simply nearly abandoned like the all-so-important mosque on the Temple Mount.)
And the defence that Mecca is not contested but that Jerusalem is is really laughable. OF COURSE Mecca is not contested by the Jews. We DON’T WANT to take away other people’s holy cities. And if we did and we built houses in Mecca without permission, boy would we learn how legitimate it suddenly becomes to enforce one’s law in such a contested city, wouldn’t we?
Drima’s mah man…but on this one…I think he feel from his typical position of reason and got into the emotion.
Look there is discrimination in Israel and Arabs get it worse than Jews though Jews are treated very shabbily by the government too thank you.
Y’all are to young to remember the illegal housing issue in Tel Aviv in 1982…I was living there. Some crazy-ass Jew (Morocayit I think…which crazy is then an oxymoron) built an unlicensed addition on his rooftop. The city would have none of it…in fact…the sucker ended up being shot to death by the police when he got all crazy in a stand-off. A close friend of mine had his family property in Hertzalia just TAKEN by the municipality about 2 years ago…it was semi-abandoned…about an acre…and the city just plain took it. So it ain’t just Arabs.
However, I have a different take. Before the second intifada…I really did care about this kind of thing and believed in all kinds of justice and fairness and respect for the Palestinians. However, my attitude is MUCH different now…I feel you know…overall these suckers have consistently brought ALL this trouble on themselves and I don’t give one hoot for their whining. They have fully lost my sympathy…with their suicide bombs, dances to the 9/11 waltz, rockets, Hamas, stabbings, arson of forest and car, kidnappings…
I have seen no organized, honest attempt from the Palestinian side to recognize Israel, stop terror and then maybe I can feel bad when they get refused a building permit. But as long as murder and terror remain their main platform and tool of “resistance” why should I give a flying fuck about them? Why? Where have they tried, in an organized and broadly supported manner, ever tried to stop that crap? When? Not even when I go by their protests in the USA is there any sembalance of peace activism. Instead you here slogans like “Jews to the oven”.
Drima…why should I care about them when they don’t care about me. Why should I appease them…because then they will suddenly wake up and say “geez, the Jews are pretty nice guys after all, we have been all wrong guys…let’s join hands and sing Kum ba fucking ya and all we are saying is give peace a chance”? Because appeasement will not help one single bit until there is a clear, organized and broadly supported effort on THEIR part to do something right for a change.
Drima, I have to disagree with foundational premise that somehow Israeli “settlers” are somehow to blame for the current state of relations between Israel and those it wants as neighbors (yet who don’t reciprocate that desire for peaceful co-existence).
You can actually disprove that settlers are a factor with a very simple thought experiment. Work with me on this.
Imagine you are, for the moment, Israel. You seek to pacify an area where your people live intermixed with other migrants to the area over the last hundred years. You are looking for a game changing solution. So you take the words “remove the settlers from the area, and peace will erupt” to heart. And you remove the “settlers”. And all Israelis. You make the area Judenrein.
Now, if our hypothesis of “settlers” being the obstacle to peace is true, then as soon as that area is made free of “settlers”, then peace should break out.
The counter argument is, that if “settlers” are not the obstacle, then peace will not break out. A corollary to this is, that if “settlers” are not the obstacle, then the other side will seek to continue to conflict by claiming some other irritant.
This is now open to testing. Lets change this from a gedanken experiment to a real one. Lets have Israel leave Gaza. No jews. No “settlers”. Even arranged for investment in the area.
And peace broke out there … yes? Right? Didn’t it?
Well, not quite. This means that the “settlers” were not the issue.
To a very large extent, Israelis have accepted the inescapable logic that “settlers” have nothing to do with acceptance.
Well, there are other gedanken experiments. Such as, if Israel trades land or gives it up, simply quits it, it will get peace.
Lebanon 2006. Gaza 2008.
That also hasn’t worked out so well. Again, people can try to blame something else, but the lesson the Israelis have learned from this is that quitting land brings the fight closer to us and does nothing to improve peace prospects. If anything it makes them worse, as the other side (mistakenly) believes that Israel quit because it was defeated. Which isn’t the case … it quit as a gesture of good-will, from a position of power.
Various groups’ collective egos and machismo can’t handle that though.
So when I hear the canard of “settlers” being an impediment to peace, I have to guffaw loudly. It is obviously not the case, proven time and again to be untrue, and is used as fig leaf for the real problem. Which curiously has only to do with the mere existence of a jewish state where it is located now.
What has resulted from all these efforts to demoralize and deligitimize Israel and Israelis over the last decade, has resulted in an invigorated defense of their land, and an unwillingness to continue with failed policies (Oslo, road map, Wye, Barcelona, …) that solve nothing. The left made an impassioned plea to remain in power, and were soundly defeated in Israel. The centrist Kadima and center-right Likud are now likely to form an alliance.
Lieberman is a real threat to the status quo, or better put, he is going to help move the situation off the failed trajectory it has been on for the past 15+ years. You might think it is going into the fire from the frying pan, but I would argue that it has already been in the fire, and couldn’t get any worse.
I seem to remember great seething in the arab and islamic world when Arik took over as PM. They couldn’t get past the fact that this was the guy who handed them defeat after defeat. I suspect Lieberman will be similarly no-nonesense.
As for the permit issue … Israel is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. If the house is unsafe, and is torn down, they will get blamed. If the house falls down on children and families, they will get blamed for not tearing it down. Hell, they will get blamed anyway.
As for exercising control over the city, they should. Its their city, their right to do so. You may not agree with this, and that is fine. You talk about the complexity of this situation. When Jordan had control, how many jews were allowed to their holy places? Rhetorical question, the answer is zero. While Israel has control, the muslims have complete control over their place, to the point of actively destroying others archeological artifacts. That is a sad statement, but in order for this city to be open to all three monotheistic faiths it is quite obvious at least one of the faiths history with this excludes any possibility of them having control over the city … we don’t want them to deny access to holy places like they have done in the past. The jews will let everyone pray there. The muslims will not. So they can’t have control.
Again, you may disagree, strongly, as is your right. It doesn’t change reality though. The reality is settlers have nothing to do with the issue of “peace”. Nor does Lieberman. Nor does control of the city. What has to do with peace is arab acceptance of their neighbor. Arab intransigance is the only real obstacle. And this arab intransigance has hardened Israelis resolve to remain, thrive, and succeed.
Most of you are incorrect concerning building permits for Palestinians. Most are denied by the Israeli government for no reason except to keep the Palestinians in a weak position. Many families spend decades trying to get a permit, but give up and simply build.
JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel denied 94% of the building permit requests West Bank Palestinians submitted over the past seven years, the anti-settlement Peace Now group reported Thursday.
In all, 91 of 1,624 requested permits were approved, Peace Now said. By contrast, 18,472 apartments and homes were built between 2000 and September 2007 in Jewish West Bank settlements, the group said, citing Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics.
Military officials in the West Bank responsible for construction said the figures were distorted.
Peace Now also said the army demolished 33% of the 4,993 cases of illegal Palestinian construction against which it issued demolition orders. By contrast, 7% of the 2,900 cases of illegal settler construction that drew demolition orders were torn down, the group said.
The data demonstrate “clear and conspicuous discrimination against the Palestinian population,” Peace Now said.
Looking back at the emotionally charged tone of this post, I realize now I could have taken some time to cool down and blog about the issue calmly.
I have indeed taken Lieberman’s racism as a given *after* reading articles like this by the Israeli Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069708.html
I’ve in fact at times also purposely avoided the sensational Arab sources and focused on left-leaning Israeli ones instead to get familiarized with what liberal Israelis think of Lieberman’s ideas and rhetoric.
Even they find him and his statements about Arabs troubling.
Clearly, it doesn’t match repulsive enraged ones made by Hamas for example, but it is nonetheless troubling.
The only comforting thing I find about Lieberman is that he’s secular, which is very unlike most typical hawkish right-wing politicians like him.
Regarding the settlements, I won’t for a minute pretend they’re a massive obstacle to peace, but why can’t we at least just admit that they’re wrong, they *don’t* help, and are part of the problem, even if a small one?
By now I’m sure you guys know you don’t have to highlight the nasty shit being done on the Arab side. I’m already very well-aware of it and will in no way try to wax it with some honey or sugar.
All I’d like to hear on the Israeli is that at the very least the expansion of settlements doesn’t help. Instead I hear “well, but the Palestinians are… and they’ve done… so why should we…”
Still doesn’t address the points raised up in the link below for example.
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/02/02/israeli-database-reveals-extent-of-illegal-settlements/
Lisa…
1. I don’t trust Peace Now…even though part of my family are former members (until Intifada II).
2. And if the stats. are even 50% correct, since I automatically assume they are heavily slanted (like people trying to get permits for things that are illegal)…it still does not change the utter con job that is going on here…which is “we have consistently tried to kill and murder you, you deny us permits and that is why there is no peace”…
And if they get permits and the “settlements” stop…the terror will continue for some other reason.
The responsibility for change falls primarily on the Palestinians and it starts with ceasing terrorism and until they cease terrorism…they can go to hell.
Stop terrorism…and we can fix a whole lot of problems…until then…yes…go to hell.
Drima…
Because the most sympathetic of us are just feed up and had have been suckered into the Oslo’s and the leaving Lebanon and the leaving Gaza and that “this is way they are mad” because nothing changes….it has only gotten worse.
Look…I checked Nizo’s blog and thank you…sucker is FUNNY…he did one blog about Arab kids talking about the trash they get from Israeli kids …Israeli Arabs we are talking here…And my attitude towards ANY form of unsolicited cruelty…I would like to see somebody shove a boot up those Israeli kids asses SO far it would come out of their spoiled, arrogant, sarcastic bitch mouths. I don’t give a shit if people have racist ideas….they can have all the racist ideas their narrow, weak minds will hold…but I do care about how people are treated…BTW….Liberman has also be quoted as saying he would give his own home to an Arab if that really led to peace and he was harrassed by the morons of the far Israeli right.
But you see Drima…what bothers me is people being conned into being sidetracked away from THE issue…even you have been. It is about trust and terror. We can’t trust those dudes…they have done NOTHING but added to the distrust…NOTHING…NOTHING!!!
For a Jew and an Israeli…it IS about terror…A few tens of thousands in remote settlements…big deal…BIG DEAL…we didn’t tear down settlements in Sinai, Gaza?
The Palestinians have legitatemate beefs…but it all gets washed away in their macho screams, threats and ACTIONS…
They will get my sympathy when they show the courage it takes to truly try to make peace.
LOL
Ahhh Drima, what can I say my friend… I didn’t think your initial post was emotional at all… but hey I’m just a crazed Arab wannabe
How dare you for once question Israeli actions! LOL
Beautiful crowd you got here
Remember in the previous post when I left you the following comment:
“Keep pursuing knowledge, build your own opinion free from influence (influence can be many things ) “</i?
@Drima,
I have indeed taken Lieberman’s racism as a given *after* reading articles like this by the Israeli Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069708.html
I’ve in fact at times also purposely avoided the sensational Arab sources and focused on left-leaning Israeli ones instead to get familiarized with what liberal Israelis think of Lieberman’s ideas and rhetoric.
I’m afraid that article doesn’t quite cut it. All it says, by and large, is that some left-wingers and one Arab official don’t like Liberman. This very article, when it actually bothers to mention *factual* events, considers Liberman to increase the “potential for conflict”:
Lieberman was publicly declaring that he saw no point in talking with Syrian President Bashar Assad as long as the latter continues to support anti-Israel terrorist organizations.
If this is the standard for hate and racism, then I’d say it flies wildly off the mark.
Even they find him and his statements about Arabs troubling.
I’d be interested in seeing them actually repeat these statements, and then find where these statements were actually made. And then I’d like them to compare said statements (most of which they’ll be quite unable to verify, I predict) with the Liberman’s actual party manifesto.
Take this, for example:
The German paper Suddeutsche Zeitung described Yisrael Beiteinu as an “anti-Arab” party
Again, what are they actually basing this on? Was it on the following?
European papers in general have reported widely on Lieberman’s new role as kingmaker, and have reminded their readers of his statements in favor of transferring Israeli Arab towns to the Palestinian Authority and making Arab citizens of Israel swear a loyalty oath.
And I presume that the papers in question failed in the following: To tell said readers that Liberman was interested in a *voluntary* shift of the border, and in this he was interested for higher political stability both for Israel *and* for Palestine.
You see, Liberman is trying to find an actual solution to the large Jewish settlement blocs, and he is under no illusion that Palestine is going to be a safe haven for Jews. As such, his offer in terms of voluntary citizenship and land exchange is quite valid, and considering the fact that over 50% of Israel’s Arab (particularly Muslim Arab) populace votes for parties that are either pan-Arabic nationalist or Islamist in nature, he has an ample reason to believe that many of them would find themselves more comfortable, identity-wise, in Palestine.
You see, Drima, Liberman supports the existence of a sovereign Palestinian state. That’s an interesting hardline right-winger there, eh?
And then we have this:
In Egypt, however, the change is liable to be more noticeable. Though senior Egyptian officials have refused to comment publicly on the matter on the grounds that it is an internal Israeli issue, in the past, several of them have described Lieberman as “racist” and “rude.
Cairo was particularly incensed by Lieberman’s statement several years ago that should Arab countries launch an attack on Israel, Israel would be justified in responding by bombing Egypt’s Aswan Dam, among other targets. Egypt was also infuriated by his statement in the Knesset last October that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak “could go to hell.”
Asked at the time for a response to the latter, Egyptian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hossam Zaki told Haaretz that Lieberman’s comments should not be dignified with a response.
Same Ha’aretz, different article:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1032604.html
And from that, Liberman’s actual comment:
During a special Knesset plenary session marking the seventh anniversary of the assassination of far-right minister Rehavam Ze’evi (Gandhi), the Yisrael Beiteinu chairman said that “Gandhi would have never approved of our self-effacement vis-a-vis the Egyptians. Time and time again our leaders go to Egypt to meet Mubarak, and he has never made a single official visit. “Every self respecting leader would have conditioned such meetings on reciprocation. If he wants to talks to us, he should come here, and if he doesn’t want to come, he can go to hell,” Lieberman continued.
Unfriendly, impolite, and accurate. Israeli politicians go to Egypt all time - it’s fully in our interest to have friendly neighbors. The opposite does not seem apparent - and for good reason. Both Egypt and Jordan got a lot of flak for their peace agreements, so to this day both nations are attempting to tone down all public forms of their “friendliness with the Zionist Enemy”.
This, in turn, is somewhat hypocritical. I understand the reasoning behind it - maintaining better relations within the Arab world, try to restore the very apparent harm that both nations endured - down to major boycotts and eternal cries of treason. And yet… I find it somewhat exasperating. It merely shows to me just how far we are from actual normalization of ties, and not just merely agreements on pieces of paper.
So while Liberman remains a somewhat loud and impolite person, he also remains the one who has the no-bullshit line. Is that a suitable line for a diplomatic public face?
Time will tell. Back when the discussions toward a peace agreement between Israel and Egypt began, Egyptian president Anwar Sadat visited Israel in his official capacity in 1977. During that visit, he specifically asked to meet “General Sharon”.
Because you can hate people and respect them all the same.
The only comforting thing I find about Lieberman is that he’s secular, which is very unlike most typical hawkish right-wing politicians like him.
That’s far from accurate, to say the least. But then again, I see the Israeli political system daily - you observe those aspects of it that see widespread international reporting. Most of Israel’s right-wing hawkish politicians were secular - and to a large extent, still are.
Regarding the settlements, I won’t for a minute pretend they’re a massive obstacle to peace, but why can’t we at least just admit that they’re wrong, they *don’t* help, and are part of the problem, even if a small one?
No, they don’t help. Yes, they’re a problem. But their faux-importance in terms of actual future peace agreements is shoved so often down our collective Zionist throats that we get a bit tired of it all.
A problem? Certainly. Just nowhere near the importance of actual major factors.
All I’d like to hear on the Israeli is that at the very least the expansion of settlements doesn’t help.
There you go, you just heard it. From me. Now please offer me a viable solution to the matter at hand - one that’s better than Liberman’s land exchanges. Considering the fact that the actual settlement blocs are very close to the Green Line, an equal land exchange would be the most balanced and proper way forward, while attempting to minimize actual population shifts - instead focusing on shifting the border to best suit both sides.
@Amru,
How dare you for once question Israeli actions! LOL
Beautiful crowd you got here
Why thank you, Amru. We always like compliments.
Amru…
Drima questions Israeli policy on a very regular basis and announces such in the standard description of his blog.
Are you among the type that whenever one of “the boys” criticizes the party line…he is somehow a Jew sympathizer and an “Uncle Tom”? My guess, by your comments that you are of that very common ilk. Too bad, because if you read the comments here, I don’t think your sarcastic and unsupported remarks would be as likely but, no sadly they probably would be predictably standard.
And in terms of criticism of Israel…it is a common on-going process that takes place both inside and outside of Israel by Jews and non-Jews alike.
Where are you from Amru? Can you speak your mind in the street? Could you walk into Gaza and trash talk Hamas?
Yes…this is a beautiful crowd indeed because they share ideas and love freedom and seek the truth and don’t stumble over in to predictable slogans and blind, autistic-like sterotypical sloganisms.
God bless you Drima and your courage and you can criticize Israel all you want…because you attempt to be fair and measured…and you are willing to listen and learn and THAT is way the beautiful among us are regular readers.
Amru…there are lots of sites where you can hear all the robotic slogans and people will tell you sweet lies and make you feel warm and fuzzy about how evil the Jews are…
I wonder how many of these pro Israeli posters are fully paid up ISraeli gov sanctioned professional bloogers, out to spam, irritate and bamboozle everyone until they agree.
The Modus operandi seems to be the same across the blogosphere, anything negative about israel seems to result in well rehearsed posts about every other country but Israel. It’s a very pathetic argument and kind of transparent.
Let’s name all the Arab countries that used to have Jewish populations and who have become totally peaceful after those populations left.
Whenever I read this blog and the comments I am becoming prouder of Israel. Maybe I should do something for the peace in Ireland and remove this settler from Dublin?
I think if I found a job and a place to stay I could live in Haifa.
Howie, you don’t happen to be in Tel Aviv in late April?
That made my day! I can’t stop laughing, seriously.
Ok, guys. How many of you are paid to defend Israel? And when do I get my cheque?
You mean I could’ve been *paid* for this?
Why was I not told?
RK…
Come on man…you are as part of the international Jewish conspiracy as I am…
Step up and be a man and admit it…
I got my check…see you in Acapulco next week as planned?
Don’t forget the blood and matzah meal please. Hey…I hear Jonathan Pollard got his pay and will be meeting us down there with Vaanunu as well…
i feel bad
drima its a fair point insofar as outside i can see how the contrast of these items rings loud and ugly..
justice aside.. let me just say if i could choose to be born jewish or palo right now in israel/palestine based on good fortune alone - i’d choose jewish and thank my lucky stars for the option..
i wish some informed arabs could counter some of the arguments raised so it didnt seem like you were being smacked for raising a point of view but rather a meaningful discussion ensued.. maybe next time buddy
Vaanunu is coming again? I thought he was still busy undermining Christianity from within? Boy am I behind with the news…
Hey, while we are in Acapulco, let’s invade and form another Jewish state so we can take over the world sooner!
Yes, now that the Zionists worked so hard to make the land rich, being Jewish is a good deal.
Lirun…
Nobody smacked Drima…we politely disagreed…we were delicate, respectful, and appreciative of his point of view…for which we are well-paid by Adam and the Elders of Zion.
Andrew…RK didn’t answer…who is bring Arab blood and who is bringing the Christian blood? When need our strength that we get from satanic matazah in order to lift those buckets of money we are getting from terrorizing poor, defenseless Drima who we all known cannot handle this level of viciousness…
In fact…I hear Liberman has placed a Jewish fatwah on him already…demanding that he be tied to a stake and made to listen to over and over to Bette Midler and Steve Lawerence tunes.
As a black american muslim. I still say the only way for the Palestinians to make progress is accept non-violent means of establishing their own state.
The destroyers must be relegated to the sideline and the builders must be put of front as the face of the Palestinians.
The civil rights movement in America worked because of the moral courage of AA and their allies. Of course, the black power movement may have helped a little as well.
I say that non-violence should be given a try. If the Palestinians could be non-violent for 5 years that would build enormous trust with the Israelis. The Israelis would consider finally have a true partner in peace.
Salaam
Ron…
You got it…with a movement based on passive resistance or just developing of trust and a full cessation of terrorism…not only would Israel have almost no leg to stand on in terms of need for repression…but the latent tendency among most Israelis to put this thing behind us would be politically unstoppable by any hardliners.
Ron…you see it exactly right…you see through the propaganda, the slogans, the projection, the denial of responsibility and you see into the soul of most Jews. You see it Ron…My hat goes off to you.
And Ron…I was a young man during the time you speak of…and whatever aspects of racism against black Americans still exists…the utter dismantling of violent and insitutionalized racism was utterly amazing to behold. I can still remember not ONE black student or black athlete in the South…could an sports fan below the age of 30 picture the U of North Carolina with no black players today…
I could go on and on and on…and yes problems remain and problems will always remain in human relationships and their will always be problems…but yes…an utter groundswell of goodness is possible within, I would say 1-2 years…probably faster…if those guys understood and accepted what you so clearly see.
Is pride, honor, revenge, hatred stronger than the will for a better life and a better world? So far is has been…but one can hope…as I have for over 50 years.
the only people on earth that still cant feed themselves are calling an israeli stupid.. sudanesethinker… i didnt knew thinking was common in sudan
Yes, but that would end the war. If the Israelis have no reason to fight any more, they won’t.
And while I can see that Palestinian Arabs might try that strategy, I doubt their “supporters” in the west and the Arab dictators will let them. Attacks against Jews in the west would increase (particularly in Sweden where the population apparently suffers more from Israeli oppression than anyone else in the world) and so would attacks against Palestinian refugee camps in Arab countries. That would go on until one side snaps and the war continues.
I don’t think the world is ready for a peace with the Jews. The Arabs might be, but their more vicious governments, the Iranian regime, the UN, and the west? I doubt it.
For Amru, Adam and Ron…and Drima
For Amru…another beautiful person
Adam…Another paid off by AIPAC
Ron…Someone I know you can relate to…well kind of..
Drima…thanks for the link to this site…he is FUNNY
http://nizos.blogspot.com/2009/03/replace-both-palestinian-leaderships.html
Read it guys…very timely
Howie, a good article by Nizo, as usual.
And he already had one commenter who doesn’t know anything about history and is probably constantly perplexed by the astonishingly huge number of Palestinians who survived the genocide perpetrated by a few hundred thousand Jews against 300 million Arabs.
Hey, what about this:
“The Medinist Entity” - the huge number of Arab countries inside and outside Arabia.
“The Medinist regime” - the Arab governments that occupy and rule southern Kurdistan, Assyria, and northern Africa, the Arab League.
“Medinist” - like “Zionist” except the Medinist wants Arab rule over everyone rather than Jewish rule over a tiny piece of land.
End the occupation of Kurdistan and Nubia!
Before I read this page(not all of it but just some and briefly at that) I as a muslim thought that the state of Israel was solely created to destroy muslims etc etc. But now my opinion has changed. Not as involved in the current news and politics and ongoing struggle for peace between Israel and Arab nations but I always used to feel sad and anger when I heard of the devastation of the palestinian cities caused by the Israelis. But now I believe that the only path for a solution to this struggle between Israel and palestinians is that palestinians have to stop being so violent. They have to stop supporting the terrorist groups and be completely peaceful and reasonable. I do not understand why some of the Arabs are so against the idea of Israel existing. It does not make any sense to me. what is the use of hamas firing a few rockets against israel. It just forces Israel to retaliate and thousands of innocent palestinians lose their lives. But Israel must also be reasonable. I think and this is my opinion which you guyz might disagree with, if the palestinians are able to show that they can be reasonable and peaceful and stop bloody trying to attack Israel, Israel should then stop builing settlements on their land and also hand over the settlements that they builit on Palestinian land on the condtion that if any harm comes to their citizens living on those settlements then there will be harsh consequences. By the way how do you guys feel about Israles attacking srategy? I mean why can’t Israel try to minimise the the deaths of the inncoent women and young children when they attack. I mean comeon children are dying and Israel doesnt seem to care about this? Shouldn’t Israel take measures to prevent this from happening?
Hasan,
You make some excellent points. I particularly support your idea regarding Jewish settlements in the territories. FINALLY an idea that treats Jews and Arabs the same, it’s refreshing to hear.
But you have to understand that Israel’s military power is very impressive. And if Israel were not already trying to minimize deaths, Palestinian Arabs would no longer exist. Israel could “win” this war within four hours if it had the determination and ruthlessness that people like to think it has.
There is also the point of Jewish paranoia. We have already seen someone scream “Death to the Jews” in Europe and lost 6 million. We are _never_ going to risk this again, NO MATTER THE COST. And that’s it. That’s the part that cannot be negotiated. Hitler the German and Husayni the Arab have scared Israel, have scared Israel into believing that the threats are not empty and that the world will not help should Israel lose. Hence Israel MUST NOT lose, no matter the cost, because the cost of Israel losing is potentially too big and it is for Jews to pay. So Israel will kill more Arabs than there are Jews if necessary to defend Jews. That’s the reality the German and Arab nationalists have created and that’s what we have to live in until Israel can be convinced that another Holocaust won’t happen.
Israel does care about the children. That’s why Arab children from Palestine and Iraq (via Jordan) are regularly admitted to Israeli hospitals for surgery. But at some point the risk and cost is just too much to take.
I am glad we managed to make you reconsider these issues.
As I said, I love your plan about the settlements. And yes, once the Arab Palestinians have land (i.e. when they stop fighting and sign a peace treaty) Israel obviously must not build on it any more. An Arab Palestinian country could legally stop Jewish immigration which the Israeli occupation currently allows. And the Jews who already live in the territories, they will just have to be treated like the Arabs living in Israel. Two nations, two states with different majorities. That might work.
There is just the question of borders…
The link for “Hitler the German and Husayni the Arab” didn’t work. It’s this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1987-004-09A,_Amin_al_Husseini_und_Adolf_Hitler.jpg
This is great:
http://www.saveachildsheart.org/265-2086-en/Sach.aspx
Andrew Brehm you’re just denying the right of Palestine to exist over and over again. As long as you deny Israell’s atrocities in Palestine and that since 1948, you’ll have a guilty conscience, i don’t know how you can still sleep at night. About the website you posted if you really want to save a child somewhere in the world, start with a Palestinian child.
Besides, you’re so pathetic and naive if you think Israhell would ever let Palestinians live in peace.
Like the original Zionists I do not only not deny the right of “Palestine” to exist but I pray daily that they will finally found their stupid state and leave us alone. Israel asked them to found their state in 1948 and again in 1967 and 2000. They keep refusing and say they want more war. And then they cry when the war comes and they lose.
As for saving “Palestinian” children, I am more eager to save children who are not taught to hate and kill me by their loving parents, but I am fine with any child saved. Once Arabs love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be peace; whether you personally want it or not. It has nothing to do with Jews, or Israel, or Zionism.
Incidentally, the Web site I posted to does collect money to save “Palestinian” children. I wish there were somewhere in the world an Arab charity collecting money to save Jewish children. One can dream, cannot one?
Who do you think gives more to the charity for saving “Palestinian” children, Jews or Arabs?
I know. “Palestinians” find a way to fight. If there are no Jews to murder, they’ll happily attack and kill each other.
Of course, it’s always Israel’s fault.
Now it’s your turn to be funny…ironical..stupid?
“Like the original Zionists I do not only not deny the right of “Palestine””
This is exactly the kind of sentence that makes me laugh, and then you want people to take you seriously? Please..
I think you meant you hope your damn government will wipe off the Palestinians of the map, you’re just hidding yourself behind the typical argument of ‘peace’ your ‘country’ tries to make up everyday in order to justify murders and thieveries in the Palestinian land! Yeah, i said it.
Israhell never wanted a Palestinian state to be established, every attempt failed because of manipulations from the settlers, the terrorists (the israelis government and army) and the US, those who feed you.
“Once Arabs love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be peace;” Please, don’t quote a woman who doesn’t consider any other people as human except hers..what a joke!
“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
“I wish there were somewhere in the world an Arab charity collecting money to save Jewish children”
Do the Arabs have to suffer for what has nothing to do with them? 1346 Palestinians children are now fatherless, motherless or orphans thanks to your democracy. And i just took the slaughter of december-january into account.
“Who do you think gives more to the charity for saving “Palestinian” children, Jews or Arabs?”
None of them, some kill, some watch.
“I know. “Palestinians” find a way to fight. If there are no Jews to murder, they’ll happily attack and kill each other.”
Well, before the jews came in Palestine there was no peace then?
Still wrong. The 3 religions lived in peace before zionism came in the holy land of Palestine.
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”
But the Arabs are the terrorists.
“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).
But the Arabs are the terrorists.
“We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent.” (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).
But the Arabs are the terrorists.
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
But still, Arabs are the terrorists.
So you think YOU define what WE think?
Do you think the world would hate Jews if the world listened to the Jews instead of just making up what the Jews think?
Do restaurants in Arab countries check people’s bags for bombs in case a Jew tries to smuggle a bomb into the place?
Cy,
You and I use different definitions of “terrorism”. For you the word is related to a cause, for me it’s related to a method.
Hence for you fighting for the cause you agree with, however inhuman and evil, is not “terrorism” regardless of the methods employed.
And for me attacking civilian targets to create fear (”terror”) is terrorism, regardless of what cause is being fought for.
There simply are not many Jews attacking schools and kindergardens in Arab countries because of real or perceived injustice or suffering experienced. But there are many Arabs who attack schools and kindergardens in Israel (and elsewhere). They are terrorists. They seek to create an atmosphere of terror in order to achieve their political goals (i.e. a Jew-free middle east).
They are too cowardly to oppose a real army and hence resort only to attacking children and unsuspecting civilians. They murder children in front of their parents, NOT because they expected the children to fire at them or because the children were used as human shields by militants firing at them but SOLELY because the children are too small to fight back and are thus an easy target for even the bravest of Arab terrorists.
And they are not very brave. They are only brave when their enemy is weaker. If the enemy turns out to be stronger, they whine and cry and ask the world for help against the evil Israelis, an enemy who at first seemed like an easy target and turned out to be far more difficult to “throw into the sea” as originally thought.
That’s the terrorists’ battle strategy:
1. Kill children.
2. Wait for Israeli reaction.
3. Kill more children until Israel reacts.
4. After Israel responded in kind, cry and whine and ask the world for money.
5. Use the money to buy weapons.
6. Repeat.
What heroes!
“So you think YOU define what WE think?”
You’re right about one thing; only a terrorist knows what another terrorist thinks, therefore i didn’t define what YOU thought
“Do restaurants in Arab countries check people’s bags for bombs in case a Jew tries to smuggle a bomb into the place?”
Do the jews have to fight to get back their country from the ‘evil’ Arabs?
“For you the word is related to a cause, for me it’s related to a method.”
Believe me, we share the same definition of ‘terrorism’. The method is used at the present time by your government, here it is in case you didn’t read it the first time:
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”
“They seek to create an atmosphere of terror in order to achieve their political goals”
This is exactly what each leader does before they campaign, we both assume that sarkozy, bush or lieberman are terrorists.
I won’t quote any sentence now since i couldn’t agree less with the whole paragraph! So you say that Palestinians children are used as ‘human shields’? Who bombed a school full of children and ‘protected’ by the UN? Who prevent the ambulances to look after the Palestinian people? Who is hidden behind tanks and guns while the proud and brave Palestinians are fighting with stones ?
Israhell is not a victim but you don’t understand cuz it’s your motto to say ‘ Why does it always happen to us ?’
That’s the terrorists’ battle strategy:
1. Steal a land
2. Provoke Arab countries around
3. Kill Kill Kill
4. Make yourself a victim of the ‘evil’ and ‘terrorist’ Arabs
5. Make some propaganda (’ Why Arabs hate us ?’)
6. Kill Kill Kill
7. Make some propaganda
8. Kill Kill Kill
…
What heroes! *cough, cough*
What heroes!
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