Let’s face it. Every single one of us is a heretic.
Heretic - a person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the established church.
I repeat.
Everyone of us is a heretic, has been and will continue to be during those certain short “pesky” secretive moments of internal unvoiced doubt.
That’s right, we’re all heretics.
You, me, your mother, your father, your siblings, your loved ones, your lovers, your haters, your boss, your co-workers, your classmates…
… Everyone.
Even the most religious of the religious have their moments of doubt.
It’s only natural that we question, but the difference between the “evil” fierce heretics (the minority if I may add) and the tolerated safe ones simply lies in the intensity of questioning - the vocal kind, that is expressed publicly of course.
The kind that can bring down age-old belief systems. upon which much is based on in our society, hence the sometimes rather understandable paranoia and staunch religiously-sanctioned defense of orthodoxy.
Even when that very orthodoxy that’s being defended is in numerous ways clearly rotten, broken, and utterly despicable. And I’m not just talking about numerous aspects of religious orthodoxy here, but also the secular kind like communism and cultural kind like coerced arranged marriage.
So, now that I’ve made my point clear in a brief fashion, what do you sometimes doubt? What generally accepted sacred thing have you quietly and secretly been questioning within your mind lately?
Be honest with yourself. There’s always something lurking right beneath the surface.
And now with the emancipating miracles of Web 2.0 technologies and the new media revolution, you can speak about it freely without the filter of a censoring editor or a money-hungry politically correct publisher. So, speak it, because at the end of the day…
… we’re all heretics.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
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Drima…
Geez…where do I even begin…?
A night in 1968 changed my life forever…I had been a full-force atheist and in one night began to believe in God. Since that night, I have been searching and probably have more questions now than ever. Beyond a belief in God as the ominipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of all, I don’t know a fucking thing for certain. I have know idea what God is. I still have to think of a dude with a beard because I cannot fathom God as stuff like cosmic fairy dust or the Great Energy or whatever.
I do not believe in moral relativism and God fits right into that picture. I also intuit that God is intimately involved in our lives. Yet, if I look at things objectively, the world appears totally chaotic and random. Bad people thrive, good people suffer horrors, nature is cruel, vicious and often quite random. Some folks pray and get miracles, some pray and get jack shit. Babies die of hunger, lukemia and natural disaster.
Much of our faith and belief system is based on a couple of books…the Old and New Testaments, the Koran and then a million interpretations and arguements about them. Each of these books have splintered off into countless demoninations, cults, theologies and believe systems as to make finding some ultimate Truth based on intellect and logic a farce.
I have searched into Christianity, Bhuddism, Hinduism and even flirted with Sufism. I my younger days, I probably would have hung out with peyote Indians if I could have. I have spent 30 years within my own religion and have read and prayed and questions and studied and have come up with little that answers my questions or calms my pain. In fact lately, it just pisses me off to the point where I don’t go to synagouge anymore…I feel like a robotic moron just taking up space, bored and out of place.
Religion has mostly brought me pain…not liberation. Dogma either angers me or just makes me want to laugh. I believe in God…I don’t much trust holy books, though I do study them…and find them flawed.
Me a heretic? Are you fucking kidding me? Drima…have you read Job yet? If not, you need to. At least I can respect Judaism for a large tradition of questioning and respect for intellectual honesty, though we too have our mullahs and those dudes we act worse if it weren’t for the fact that they can’t get the power they seek and we have been able to keep our foots firmly up their asses in most cases.
So…like you…I am a mystic of sorts. I can only try to trust and hope for God to be good and care and to intervene in our lives. I can’t believe in a God who shows the viciousness I see both in the Holy Books and in the manifestation of a random and dog eat dog natural world.
And please…folks…don’t give me the “pie in the sky after you die by-and-by” shit. (Drima…try to Utube the brothah the late, great Rev. Ike…you gotten check out that homie). That this life is kind of test and a few of the good robots get to go to heaven…Like God can’t read what is inside of their minds and hearts…which are filled with doubt and fear and lack of faith.
Do I ramble? Tough shit…
So good for you Drima. If God is the orthodox model…well then we are in deep shit and the universe is a really really bad joke.
Good travels friend.
Drima…
BTW…my definition of a heretic is way better than what you have posted above…Do refer to my earlier posts.
That definition of heretic implies an organized, central religious order that defines the doctrines of the faith to everyone else. It assumes dogma and centralized power that will hit you on top of your head if you against that dogma.
*shrug* Some of us simply don’t have that.
And if you don’t question, don’t seek out the basis of the defining aspects of your faith to better understand the reasoning behind them, then what’s the point in the first place? Blind faith? Blind faith is for those too weak-willed to have their faith survive the process of questioning it - and these are the people who will either lash out or cop out when presented with someone who doesn’t share their belief. Either a violent reaction or a conversion… either a member of one sheep herd, or another.
I come from a long line of goats, me. I *like* having dozens of books written around the tiniest nuances of my religion. I *like* arguments, debates, and reading the arguments and debates of those who came before me.
What I’ve questioned? A great deal, really. I built my faith from the ground up, and it a long time to accept the strength of certain foundations and building blocks, so to speak. Sometimes I chip at them a bit to see how strong they are, and by doing so I think I get to understand them just a little better.
RK-
“That definition of heretic implies an organized, central religious order that defines the doctrines of the faith to everyone else. It assumes dogma and centralized power that will hit you on top of your head if you against that dogma.”
Howie said it bettter:
Heresy, historically, as I see it… has been primarily a very good thing. I think most heresy has simply been somebody with ballz going against “the Man”…afterall…it is typically “the Man” who defines heresy…which is typically defined as going against “the Man”… By that definition…I typically love heresy…as long as the heretic does not end up becoming “the Man”
Shavuah tov
RK
I have to add to the blind faith comment. I think blind faith is for cowards and/or morons that actually feel they can trick God into believing they have complete blind faith. I think blind faith is basically a lie, a form of denial and self-deluding. And people are bullied into blind faith basically through fear of being tortured for eternity in hell or trying to fool themselves and God into believing they are the ultra-righteous and COMPLETE adherents and therefore…because they hold fanatically to a given interpretation or dogma…get to go to heaven and hang out with angels, or fuck virgins, or smoke weed with winged Raccoons or whatever…Blind faith…what a crock of shit that is.
Faith with fear and doubt…faith with honesty and a drive to keep searching for the truth…that I respect.
Blind faith can kush mir en tuchas ahrine
“what do you sometimes doubt?” What do I sometimes doubt ? Evolution. Sometimes - especially when reading ME news - I have my doubts that the human race really is evolving. If so, we - as a species - should be becoming gradually less stupid. Maybe we just need time.
“Religion has mostly brought me pain…not liberation. Dogma either angers me or just makes me want to laugh. I believe in God…I don’t much trust holy books, though I do study them…and find them flawed.”
Yeah Howie pretty much summed it up perfectly for me; people ask me why I left Islam and in a nutshell that really is the story of how I eventually crossed over to the other side. It’s the God bit that I’m not quite so sure about anymore, though.
Guys, look at the definition of heretic again and read the first part. It doesn’t imply centralized power that will strike you dead if you question it. It just says:
“a person who holds controversial opinions”
The context could be your classroom, a dinner conversation with your family, a group of friends, the mosque, a nation state, a gang etc.
We all experience moments in which we question and hold beliefs that are polar opposites to what the context we’re immersed in holds. In those short brief moments, we become heretics. Hence, in one measure or another, we’re all indeed heretics. Everyone of us.
That’s all I’m saying.
Now in terms of the second part of the definition:
“especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the established church.”
Yes, it doesn’t apply to everyone like Roman mentioned. When it comes to punishment for heresy, there are vast differences between one place and another of course. It’s not the same for all of us.
The crime of heresy in Christianity and Judaism is no longer punishable by death like it was hundreds of years ago.
However, given that Islam is a younger faith, it still is. Moreover since the majority of Muslim countries are not democratic and hence have no freedom of speech, even political heresy is punishable, unlike in democratic free societies.
Hope that clarifies things.
Drima
“Hope that clarifies things.”
Nah…I think we got it in the first place
Until 9/11 religion was of no consequence to me. Live and let live, was my motto. Since then, I have been angry. Why is it that reasonable people have to suffer the fools who think that religion is the most important thing ever? That it should be, above all, respected? (I believe in Santa Claus and I demand your respect!)
I want to weep when I witness the waste of time, energy, peace and happiness squandered on some hypothetical after-life. Why can’t most people accept the fact that their ego is not eternal? What’s wrong with ceasing to exist? Does it bother you that you did not exist before conception? I’m sure it doesn’t. So why attach so much importance to the other end of life?
And then there is Eternity. Is it really desirable? (“Oh, my God, another 72 beautiful virgins to despoil! Will it ever end? Give me an old drag queen for a change!”) Isn’t it preferable to look forward to nothing?
So, yes, I’m a heretic and I don’t give a damn!
Read:
Let It Be: Three Cheers for Apatheism
http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/apatheism_beyond_religion/index.html
Heh. You know, Howie, it’s funny how people get to completely difference places walking the same road. The more I think about the world the more I am reinforced in my conclusion that God is not only nonexistent but also unnecessary.
Life just does an excellent job of explaining itself as a tremendous network of interactions. God is not needed to push quarks along their probable pathways. God, then, is the product of intellectual laziness
difference = different
Abu…
Yep…I walked the same path and, as pissed and frustrated as I am with religion…perhaps even with God…I came up with the opposite conclusion.
I have told the story before I think…so I will give the short version. Why, when seeing I pile of horseshit, did the young optimist drive into it headfirst and start throwing horseshit in the air and screaming for joy?
Because he figured underneath all that shit…there has to be a pony.
You and Eva come to the conclusion that there is nothing but shit and I certainly can see that…my experiences have led me to something different. But I am not blind to the shit.
I also have learned that not believing in God is a form of intellectual laziness. Aside from not being able to explain the existence of everything, not believing in God makes understanding the universe very easy.
That’s what I was thinking when I read Drima’s post.
Isn’t that what being a Jew already is?
Abu and RK…
My wife just got back from Israel…kind of cool..she ended up hanging out for awhile with Idan Richel (we are old enough to be his dad). Nice to hear that he was a very open, easy-going…humble guy.
Funny…small world. Reminds me of being in a tiny tiny town in the middle of nowhere in Mexico. We were eating at a small place…and what comes on the CD…”al tesapri li al bayet”…it was a shock. Then we run into this Mexican cowboy on a horse down there…He hears us speaking Hebrew and, in Spanish, asks me what language we are speaking. When I told him he goes..yeah…my little sister is married to an Israeli dude and lives in Tel Aviv…
For you younger guys…this might not seem a big deal…but even 15 years ago…this would have been essentially impossible. Again…this place was in the jungle with a population of about 2,000…we ain’t talkin Acapulco.
Aside from the fact that Mexico is the murder capital of the world…it is a very cool place if you have never been.
Oh Abu…TONS of drugs…and RK…these suckers can make us Ruskies look like little Mormons when it comes to drinking. Oh…and I even ran into a Mexican/Lebanese Jew down there that had a Chamsa in her restaruant.
World has changed.
“Because he figured underneath all that shit…there has to be a pony. ”
A dead pony, I presume.
“I also have learned that not believing in God is a form of intellectual laziness. Aside from not being able to explain the existence of everything, not believing in God makes understanding the universe very easy.”
Howie, you sound like YOU have the ability to explain the existence of everything just by believing in God. I wish it was so simple! I also think that if we get any explanation of God, it will be through science - especially mathematics - not through Vatican or Al Azhar.
Howie, question.
What *is* God? Because too often we throw around that word thinking it means the same thing to everybody when it doesn’t.
Drima -
What’s your definition?
I no longer believe that “God” is some celestial dictatorship up in the sky looking at your every move, asking you to wage war against those who don’t believe in him, testing you in this life supposedly fairly, and yet has full knowledge of the future and everything in existence.
That “God” is dead in my head. He’s man-made, and neither he nor separation theology deserves reverence.
If anything, I have settled for a rational perspective of “God” and that is viewing him (her?) as Consciousness.
Consciousness is singular. We’re all one. Even quantum physics says so. That’s why Sufism still appeals to me as do other mystical traditions which are more pantheistic than they are theistic.
Consciousness is real. It requires no unexamined, blind faith and submission out of fear. More importantly, it is based on rational reasoning.
Uhm. Is the Cosmic Consciousness self-conscious?
Eva and Drima…
When I try to fathom what God is…I start to experience a sense of panic and dizziness…therefore I just go back to a grandfather figure in a chair…
But know…I cannot see God as taking up space and being something finite, but I see God as the creative force behind existence and the source of truth and right behavior. Without that…we are stuck with relativism…which horrifies me.
Does the “existence” of God explain the universe…yes it sure does. At least far more than a Big Bang (sounds like a hot porno flick!!!…”staring the the Big Bang…HOWIE…..yeah baby…yeah!) got all this going.
To me, the bigger question is what the hell is God’s job…Why are things so horrible. Free Will only explains some of the pain on earth…but does not explain why God occasionally does crap like wipe out the coast of Malyasia or whatever with a tsunami…or why do we need Titsi flies or elephantitis…
I am not blind to these things and have found not explanation in any religious tradition for it…just lame excuses…like people sucking up to God.
Abu…you are probably typically cosmically unconscious most of your waking hours…who the hell are you kidding?
Howie -
You are ignoring the consciousness question, but it is an important one. Moreover, it might hold the key to your own questions. To elaborate:
Our self-awareness arises from our genetics, biochemistry and biophysics. Our consciousness - that which we define as ourselves - is the effect of interactions between pieces of meat in our heads. Our thoughts are processed through organs we share with fish. How would you fathom the qualities of a sentience not bound by such constraints?
How would human morality - byproduct of social instincts - be relevant to such an entity?
Given that God is eternal, omniscient and omnipresent (by definition, pretty much), how would time/space continuum be relevant to it? What does that mean for the nature of God’s sentience?
Which reminds me…
Abu….
Rocky Raccoon
Stepped into his room
Only to find
Gideon’s Bible
Gideon stepped out
and left it no doubt
To help with good Rocky’s revival
The Beatles
Abu…
Our self-awareness arises from our genetics, biochemistry and biophysics. Our consciousness - that which we define as ourselves - is the effect of interactions between pieces of meat in our heads. Our thoughts are processed through organs we share with fish. How would you fathom the qualities of a sentience not bound by such constraints?
How would human morality - byproduct of social instincts - be relevant to such an entity.
Your comments are the assumptions of an atheist…not facts. Certainly you could be correct…kind of a materialistic reductionism (hey you started the shit with the fancy words)…but for me…that holds no truth necessarily…although sure…part of what you say is true…but is there truth beyond your reductionsim…I believe yes…but no I don’t know what God is…but intuit that a unifying force beyond the mundane human experience exists and that human life and experience is important and has meaning…
Can’t prove it…just kind of believe it.
Howie, there is your wishful thinking:
“I see God as the creative force behind existence and the source of truth and right behavior.”
… And then there is reality that you have to live with:
“To me, the bigger question is what the hell is God’s job…Why are things so horrible. Free Will only explains some of the pain on earth…but does not explain why God occasionally does crap like wipe out the coast of Malyasia or whatever with a tsunami…or why do we need Titsi flies or elephantitis…”
The tsunami was caused by a shift of tectonic plates. Tsitsi flies and elephantitis are organisms that fought for their right to live the same way we did, by seizing all opportunities for a successful existence. That they bother us is not their problem.
You also wrote:
“When I try to fathom what God is…I start to experience a sense of panic and dizziness…therefore I just go back to a grandfather figure in a chair…”
I’m sorry to hear that but I think that if you overcome the panic and dizziness, you’ll find enormous peace. As Drima so aptly said, we are all one. Once you get that feeling of belonging with the universe – not as a unit called Howie but as the matter and energy that compose the current you - you’ll no longer feel confused. Do try it, it works!
Raccoon:
Our self-awareness arises from our genetics, biochemistry and biophysics. Our consciousness - that which we define as ourselves - is the effect of interactions between pieces of meat in our heads. Our thoughts are processed through organs we share with fish. How would you fathom the qualities of a sentience not bound by such constraints?
How would human morality - byproduct of social instincts - be relevant to such an entity?
The inherent flaw in your current reasoning is that you are discussing the how, not the why. This is the basic difference between logic-based reasoning and supposition and assumption that is not grounded in observed evidence. The difference, if you will, between deductive reasoning and inductive reasoning.
Deductive reasoning requires observed evidence. Inductive reasoning requires, always, something that you can’t really prove - which you assume to be true for the basis of further reasoning. It requires a leap of faith.
So you have used deductive reasoning to explain our existence, Raccoon. You have explain the “how” of it. For some of us, that isn’t enough. We ask to know the “why”.
In answer to that, some would begin to describe probability theory, randomness, chaos… and it would still be an answer to another question altogether, not the one asked. Because that still tries to explain the “how”, not the “why” - a deductive system doesn’t have why’s, not beyond the initial one to be replaced by one more “how” theorem.
And that is the essence of it. The basic difference between explaining intellect and morality and why we have it in the first place, or why there’s a “we” in the first place, or a *place* for us to be *we* in.
So I’m going to requisition the arrogance hat from the scientific community for a moment, and place it on the religious community, which happens to include me. I’m a thinking, self-aware, moral being. You can explain away my existence as random encounters between carbon atoms, my intellect and self-awareness as a new way of getting fruit, and my morality as the result of a process of converging delusions of self-aware monkeys who are busily killing each other. And I don’t accept that as enough - I’m not some mere speck of dust in an expanding cloud of space. And I want some answers. A scientist would tell me that I’m asking the wrong kind of question.
Me? I say that he’s limited in his system of reasoning, having previously defined its borders and then locked himself in them, content and secure in not having to consider that which he has eliminated as “ignorant”.
It’s at this point that faith starts, and deductive reasoning ends. In our not accepting our irrelevance. One could go as far as describe it as a mental self-defensive mechanism.
One could also describe the opposite in the exact same manner, and have about as much basis for it.
Given that God is eternal, omniscient and omnipresent (by definition, pretty much), how would time/space continuum be relevant to it? What does that mean for the nature of God’s sentience?
Given that we are inherently limited beings attempting to understand concepts that we have, in order to even accept their existence, reduced infinitesimally to our level of understanding, and every single attempt we make at understanding such concepts involves observing them through our broken prism of a mind and with comparisons to concepts we do understand… I daresay that a conclusion on the matter based on deduction alone is, well, quite irrelevant in and by itself.
It’s would be like explaining an expanding universe to a chicken. And even what I just said is an example of human reduction of concepts to understand them, because the comparison is laughably simplistic.
Raccoon,
“Is the Cosmic Consciousness self-conscious?”
That’s an irrelevant question, because the next question can then become “is the self-consciousness of cosmic consciousness itself conscience?” and so on.
As for your explanation on what consciousness is, I’m afraid it’s incomplete. Yours is a materialist approach which doesn’t answer the meaning behind all of this existence.
Neuroscience is also now showing us that there remains a lot to be yet discovered and understood about the human mind and how consciousness arises. It’s still a big question. So you’re basically making a leap of faith with your assumptions.
RK…
“So I’m going to requisition the arrogance hat from the scientific community for a moment, and place it on the religious community, which happens to include me. ”
What a surprise…religious guy goes straight for the hat…
Well…even though I am more on your side in this…I do take exception to one common religious cop-out. That God is so beyond our understanding because he is infinite blah blah and we are finite blah blah…If God is so smart…then he could make himself as understandable as he wishes…even to a chicken.
And this is religious frequent cop-out for many difficult questions…well…the human mind is so finite…it just can’t comprehend the ultimately goodess in that tsunami wiping out your family or your wives sexy legs giving way to elephantitis (have you ever seen it in person…I have…you don’t want it).
And Eva…you sound all ticked off. The unification concept is just as plausible as duality. And I have tried it and it did very little for me. We are all part of the one…great…doesn’t help me understand my elephantitis.
Abu…a random hot fart turned into the universe and then Darwin and probability takes over. Don’t know where the fart came from in the first place…but wow…one hell of a complex fart that one was.
I believe in a God that I don’t understand and that is based on faith (pretty low grade faith…I admit that fully). I believe in miracles and have even been involved in a couple…but I can’t prove anything and I can’t explain why some folks seem to get God’s favor and others do not. I cannot explain what I said earlier…the universe really does appear fully random most of the time and God does not appear to be good and caring most of the time.
Eva…a dead pony? I fully can understand your thinking…but know…ultimately I believe the pony is real…but don’t claim to understand why he hides under all that junk.
Howie:
Well…even though I am more on your side in this…I do take exception to one common religious cop-out. That God is so beyond our understanding because he is infinite blah blah and we are finite blah blah…If God is so smart…then he could make himself as understandable as he wishes…even to a chicken.
*shrug* Two points. One is context. We are defined by the environment that we grow in - though we might manage to “think out of the box” if we were in some way aware of other environment, mostly through encountering them in one way or another.
The Almighty is not within our context. We’re about as far away from Him as we can get - that’s in the very definition of our physical world. It’s only through the spirit, and in some cases likely through people who can go beyond our physical world with said spirit, that we can actually perceive what is beyond…
Now, we could ask why we’re here, why we’re placed in such a limited world (Hassidic Jews in fact go as far as to define it as The World of Limitations) in the first place… and the answer to that is beyond me. This is the point where I just sit back, and enjoy the ride, though I still do wonder…
The second matter relates to the end of the first. Our limitations are part of what defines our existence - give us perfect understanding of the Almighty, and you take away our free will, our ability to choose… because as you said it, it would be perfect - so people would *have* to accept it.
So instead, we are seemingly thrown to lowest point possible, constantly looking up and trying to climb back…
And this is religious frequent cop-out for many difficult questions…well…the human mind is so finite…it just can’t comprehend the ultimately goodess in that tsunami wiping out your family or your wives sexy legs giving way to elephantitis (have you ever seen it in person…I have…you don’t want it).
It’s not a cop-out as much as it’s a “dunno”. When attempting to explain the very existence of natural disasters and disease, any answer you would get from a religious individual will either be too simplistic and spiteful - the “they deserve it”/”it’s divine punishment” routine, a “dunno, but I believe in Divine Benevolence, so it’s alright in the very longest long run”, or a year-long debate about the nature of mankind, how and what we need to define us as what we are, and so on and so forth until, basically, you give up on asking again…
There are questions without easy answers. In fact, I’d say very questions *have* easy answers. Uncertainty is the name of the game we’re in - welcome to Humanity.
RK…
That is an honest answer…the “beyond our finite mind” thing de facto…limits God’s ability to make us aware if he bloody well feels like it…
“dunno”…yup I can hang with that because it is honest…the other answer IS a cop-out…
Good response though it gives me no peace of mind.
“And Eva…you sound all ticked off. The unification concept is just as plausible as duality. And I have tried it and it did very little for me. We are all part of the one…great…doesn’t help me understand my elephantitis”
Two questions, Howie. Since English is not my first language, I don’t understand certain expressions. What does “ticked off” mean?
Second, what duality do you have in mind?
Understanding your elephantitis: I just happenetd, that’s all. It could have been just as easily someone else. Why look for a supernatural explanation when something bad happens?
Mates, you got me all wrong.
I did not intend to negate God in any way. Knowing which bit of meat in your head is responsible for your sense of justice does not cancel divinity out. The fact that you have common ancestors with a housefly does not necessarily translate into “there is no God and no absolute reason for existence”.
It does cancel “young-earth” creationism.
It certainly negates literal interpretations of various holy texts.
But it certainly leads me to my central, and obviously missed, point. Namely that “why”, as opposed to “how”, is relative. To understand the why you have to understand the point of reference. Since the point of reference is God, it is somewhat difficult but not necessarily impossible.
As such, my intention was to show the whole debate in a somewhat different and more rational light. I believe disciples of Chaba”d would agree with the notion, wouldn’t they?
Drima -
Ach, come on, man.
Consciousness is awareness in general. A lot of things are conscious. Cats are conscious. Dogs are conscious. Frogs are conscious. So are humans. A conscious being can at the very least react to the environment. God is quite probably conscious (if the term is at all applicable).
Self-awareness is the awareness of oneself being conscious; it is also the chief component of intelligence. Whether God is self-conscious is a relevant question. There is no deeper sub-looping here.
For meaning, see first part of reply
As for me taking a leap of faith - in a way, yes. No more than when I accept the existence of subatomic particles. In either case, the prevalent theory can consistently explain and predict phenomena (and do so better than the alternatives).
Howie - “doesn’t help me understand my elephantitis.”
You have Elephantiasis?
You do know there’s a cure, right?
Howie -
I suggest Ramba”m, he devoted a lot of time and ink to the whole free will/existence of imperfection thing.
My qualm with religion in its widespread form today is that it often tends to be “transactional” and involves mechanical worship activities, far removed from a direct connection with one’s God, but rather brimming with dogma and cultural influences/biases. Even people’s attachment and defense of religion tends to be based less on rationality and reason and more on pure emotional and cultural influence.
I agree with you, we are all heretics in some sense. I think if most people stop, think, and observe the masses they will realize that a whole lot of people are suffering from ‘religious myopia.’ Sometimes, you don’t even have to stop and think, you could be busy with life and you’ll suddenly get hit with a “this isn’t right” moment. Honestly, sometimes I doubt most people’s attachment to their God—whoever that might be. I think most people treat religion as ‘insurance’—in case of emergency you’ve got that God on your side! The other day I read a NYTimes article that made think “I can’t believe so many people actually believe in this!” then it made me realize that I’m suffering from religious myopia and a lot of non-muslims can examine Islam and have a “I can’t believe billions of people believe in this!”
To finally answer your question, I doubt the validity of any religion. The only thing I do not doubt is the existence of God. I think religion is more of a “guide” rather than a “rule” book. If you do exactly what it says, and think of religion as a rule book rather than a guide book, you will miss out on all the fun of building a meaningful relationship with your God on your own.
Here’s the Times article I’m talking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=1&em
Raccoon, we are all God. God is us and we are him. But then we end up with a serious philosophical problem of evil within our hands. Ah, pantheism.
Optimist, salam ya zareefa! Thanks for your comment
“I doubt the validity of any religion.”
WHAT? How dare you! Haraaam ya bit! 3abe.
No, but seriously though, I think doubt is key. People who have deeply black and white convictions on matters like religion and want to shove those convictions in your face horrify me.
When it comes to God though, I still find the question of whether or not I believe in One difficult to answer because most people just can’t give you a proper definition of what God is in the first place.
Gravity? Big daddy in the sky smoking a joint of weed? Energy? I don’t know but Consciousness seems like the closest to a good answer. And hence my newfound comfortable and intellectually honest position on matters like these i.e. Agnostic.
We don’t effing know.
And even those who claim to know can’t resolve all the philosophical problems on matters like free will and the problem of evil.
It does cancel “young-earth” creationism.
It certainly negates literal interpretations of various holy texts.
Abu…amen to that brother…even the black-hatted RK likely does not believe the earth to be 6,000 plus years old…
Rambam…tried it…bored me to DEATH within minutes…sounded like a Jewish version of Aristotle…who also bores me.
Doesn’t negate literal interpretations…I don’t much believe them…but why does not necessarily negate them?
Optimist…I don’t have a problem knocking religion…basically…religion has been a historical disaster…like other forms of politics..
Eva..pissed of means le angry…oui?
Here…Eva…do you think it is OK to murder your neighbor’s children and canabalize them on your barbacue with a cold Molson?
If you find the thought abhorrant…then very likely you believe in God…you just have not figured that out.
Drima -
I have a solution for the whole evil issue: evil is relative to the point of reference. Much like the question of “why”. To answer it you would only have to figure out what God is
Howie -
“Here…Eva…do you think it is OK to murder your neighbor’s children and canabalize them on your barbacue with a cold Molson?”
LOL, it might be abhorrent, but is definitely bloody amusing. Long Pig usually is
As such, my intention was to show the whole debate in a somewhat different and more rational light. I believe disciples of Chaba”d would agree with the notion, wouldn’t they?
Fair enough. And I’m also sure that most disciples of Chaba”d would agree, though not being one I can’t really say for certain.
Howie:
Abu…amen to that brother…even the black-hatted RK likely does not believe the earth to be 6,000 plus years old…
*checks in the mirror* Nope, no black hat as of yet.
As for the question of the physical age of the earth… The question is simply irrelevant for anyone who isn’t subject to an entirely literal interpretation of his religion. One of our “basic rules” in the matters of the Almighty is that He, well… is bloody well capable of anything. Including creating a world 6000 years ago with a past, fossils, and wear and tear on continents bundled in.
Then there’s that rather interesting part in Sefer Ha’Zohar mentioning the world as “created” and “sundered” in cycles, though it could certainly mean something else entirely…
RK…
Yeah..I have heard the arguments…I have a brother-in-law that is a genious and an evangelical Biblical literalist…Was funny to watch him have a discourse on how to rationalize the 6,000 year thing with a Kabalist…took a LOT of bending…but they got there…
Abu
“I have a solution for the whole evil issue: evil is relative to the point of reference.”
Thus my barbecue reference…yes…without “God” all becomes completely relative and relativity, it can be argued, was the disaster of the 20th century.
If there is no ultimate reference point in terms of right and wrong…then there is no right and wrong…
Eva…coming over for lunch? Yummy…my neighbors are Armenian/Persians….child with rice and lachmun jun…perfect…. here have a taste…is it REALATIVELY delicious!!!
Howie -
“without “God” all becomes completely relative” - not all, only evil/good. Human morality, however, is derived from social instincts. Basically it’s “common sense for surviving as social animals”, a system for maximizing average survival rates within a given community. There is an argument that wars, along with many other ills of humanity, are the result of tribal social instincts applied to much larger groups.
RK -
How about a more Epicurean approach? Divinity as existing but having no discernible influence on reality?
Abu…
Already been tried…look up “deism”….George Washington was a famous one.
How about a more Epicurean approach? Divinity as existing but having no discernible influence on reality?
*shrug* It’s a system that eliminates itself - Epicurus defined divinity as a bigger human with a beard, and thus on a more “equal footing” with mankind and with no direct control over any event beyond his physical ability to do so - in Epicurus’ world, gods and men were made of the same “stuff”. Why do you think the word entered the Hebrew language so easily? It was the very definition of a person who redefines divinity as a form of denying it at its essence - a religious idiot.
Howie mentioned Deism - it’s more a matter of making the individual human more irrelevant in the eyes of a grand, indifferent divinity - or one whose plans are completely and utterly beyond affecting us within our time-frame. Either way, the divinity does not involve itself with the affairs of men in any noticeable form in Deism - which is where it becomes similar to Epicureanism.
“WHAT? How dare you! Haraaam ya bit! 3abe”
Haha, you cracked me up. Actually, I used to consider myself an agnostic theist at one point, and I think that liberation of thought and allowing yourself to reject what everyone around you believes to be undoubtedly true gives you courage to speak your mind or observe people’s reactions to your thoughts (I highly recommend observation of closed minded people’s reaction to what you say to them, oh so very amusing!)
I think I mainly had an issue with God’s presumed omnipotence in Islam (and most religions for that matter.)
However, after digging deeper, I believe I found a view of religion/God that I am now comfortable with.
I highly encourage you to read about east Asian “religions” (e.g Buddhism and Taoism.) They offer very interesting insights.
My religious view today is an amalgamation of many many things, therefore I refuse to put a label on it. I am Muslim, not in the way anyone I know is. But I think that’s the point.
Just out of curiosity, Drima and Optimist….where does the Quran and Hadith come into all this?
Not sure if your skepticism spreads to the above two or just limited to muslims worldwide claiming to be following them…?
Also, I trust that on the road to reaching your current ’spiritual’ state, you thoroughly studied them?
“without “God” all becomes completely relative”- Even if God exists would not “good” still be relative to whatever he deems as such. As far as human morality goes I see no need for God. I would argue that morality comes from our ability to feel empathy.
AOS–
What I am skeptical about is the authenticity and rationality of people’s interpretation of the Quran and the Hadith, not either one per se.
Take for example Iblees—I have read Talbees Iblees, which to me is a very interesting way of viewing humanity’s struggle with fighting off sins and al a3mal al makrooha. I think the widespread view is that Iblees is one person who got rejected from hell, and that one person is, along with the offender, equally responsible. Iblees is also one “person” yet speaks or whispers to all people, and can successfully influence their behavior. This makes him not only as omnipotent as God, but also removes the ‘mea culpa’ aspect of sinning, which further complicates the relationship between God, people, and the idea of reward and punishment. You see the failure in that ‘logic’?
Also, I do not and have not ever doubted the Quran itself, as I do believe it to be the unaltered word of God, or at least more so than any other theistic book today. However, I think it is often forgotten that the Quran was recorded in a chronological manner, which reduces some of its content to mere irrelevancy to current times. There seems to be rigid attachment to many things in the Quran that do not and cannot be applied to modern contexts. This is where the problems start. This is why I find the Sharia law faulty and porous.
As for Hadith, I think it is the most complicated aspect of Islam. Even al 3ulama2 agree that it is often difficult to validate the authenticity of a particular hadith. They have come up with a ‘scale’ so to speak (e.g. hadith sa7ee7, hadith da3eef) but in a way, even that is subjective.
At the end of the day, I think the big message is: it’s about a person and his/her God. My actions should be about the love of God not so much fear of punishment, but strong love and appreciation for what God has given me.
The Prophet (PBUH) said “antum a3lamu bi 2moor dunyakum.”
PS I dislike the term ’spiritual.’ Call me anything but ’spiritual,’ that’s even more misinterpreted now than ‘religious.’
I’m sorry AOS, I meant to write my name in the name slot but instead wrote AOS as I was intending to address you!
My bad– no infringement attempts here
Zoxfuf…
Nope…good would have an ultimate value…not a relative one…Murder is bad…stealing is bad…Telling the truth is good…are there difficult and mitigating circumstances…sure…but does that render these concepts relative…no…they are ultimately absolutes…if there is a God.
What if God changes his mind and decides that murder is now good?
Zox…
I would assume that murder was never an absolute…but you know there are all kinds of questions…how about “can God make a rock so heavy he can’t lift it” etc. etc.
I am not poking fun…your questions are legitimate…but then it comes down to belief really since neither of us can prove our point…
I believe that the universe is not random nor are all things relative…I also readily admit…that I could be wrong…
If I am wrong…then life is a farce, a joke and there are no rules…yet I have not yet met an atheist who lived his life as if what he believed were true. Most atheists I know behave fairly well and delude themselves into thinking their moral system comes from within themselves…
A true atheist should not give a flying fuck about anything…because all is meaningless…so let’s all do some crack…
Hell…I believe in God…and I think I will do some crack anyhow.
Thanks for the gruesome invitation to dinner, Howie, but I’ll have to decline in the name of common decency. Your God seems to be a one-sided entity: it stands for goodness and morality exclusively. Who then is responsible for evil and immorality?
My point is that if morality is subject to God’s whims then it not really an absolute. You are merely substituting the will of humans for the will of a more powerful entity. Does might make right? If God were to come down and tell you to murder someone would you? If he is the source of all morals then it must be moral to do so. But I’m hoping you would find this command objectionable. I do not need God to feel love or compassion to others. I find this a stronger base for morality then commands dictated by some all powerful being.
As far as an atheist not caring about anything I have to disagree. It may not be easy but we can seek out our own purpose and meaning. If this is the only life we have then it is infinitely more valuable and I wish to cherish every moment of it.
“What if God changes his mind and decides that murder is now good?”
Maybe He has, but how do you know how that would translate into our world?
Eva…
“Thanks for the gruesome invitation”
That’s my point…where do you get the idea it is gruesome. In fact, moral and cultural relativists would argue that cannabalistic cultures are perfectly fine…or groups like the Mayans that ripped the hearts out of living humans…because it is “their culture” and who are we to judge.
So…there either are absolutes…or there ain’t. I just believe there are…and apparently you do too.
Zox…I don’t know if God has whims…Also…you need to re-read my comments. I know many good atheists, including my dad, and I know some real rotten religious people that absolutely believe in God. What I said is that IF you truly are atheist…you real should act pretty bad…because true badness cannot exist for an atheist.
“because true badness cannot exist for an atheist”
Quite the opposite, Howie (LOL, I have been saying that a lot in this thread)
An atheist is likely to do what everyone else does: adopt a personal definition of evil. This definition rests on inherited social instincts and learned social conventions.
Abu
I said TRUE badness etc…
For an existentialist etc…these are just self-developed rules..not that religious people don’t do the same…
If there is a God…then there are Absolutes that transcend stuff that people and raccoons come up with..
If there is not God…it is just whatever folk come up with…temporary expedients that are based on nothing…It might be good stuff…but has no absoluteness to it.
Don’t get behavior mixed up with the concept of an absolute…there are atheists that behave quite well and obviously religious people that behave horribly…
BTW..the Torah says we are to use all the good herbs of the earth…so what are you crying about
An atheist morality may not be absolute but empathy is a pretty good common base that we can build on. When other people are sad or in pain it makes me feel sad. I suppose wanting to avoid the suffering of others then is not an entirely unselfish thing and I can’t really fault someone who lacks this emotional response. But I think the world would be a much better place if we did more to nurture this attribute in children.
Guys, this whole topic of morality in relation to God and atheism is something Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, has discussed extensively in a superb way unlike anyone I’ve come across before.
Look up some of his stuff, such as this video:
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/facts-values-and-a-place-for-the-profound-a-conversation-with-sam-harris/
I’ll be sharing more things from the dude soon.
Zox…
Please read my comments…I was RAISED by atheists and my parents did lots of nice things. Our neighbors were religious…they used to beat their kids so hard you could hear the screams from our house…50 years later it still gives me the chills…
Here…listen to this…I have a debate with some close friends…the question is: do you see a big difference between the behavior of believers and non-believers? Intuitively…you would THINK religious people would be more moral…but I have not seen that manifest in the real world…same freakin bell shaped curve.
But I would argue that empathy is ultimately based on values and ethics from God…I know this is a hard concept and I think most people here miss my point…
But are there good atheists…YES…and there bad religious people? Osama bin Laudin is religious…very…and that is just an extreme example. Bertrand Russell seemed like a pretty good guy…athiest…So I am no evangelical by any stretch…just my experinces, mediatations etc. have led me to a belief in God…but trust me…I am filled with questions and doubts.
I hope that is clearer?
I did not mean to imply that you thought atheist were horrible people. I was trying to address your statement that without God basically anything goes. As far as the source of empathy, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see it as a useful evolutionary trait that has helped keep us from destroying ourselves as a species.
ps. thanks for the link Drima im watching it now
Zox…
“I see it as a useful evolutionary trait that has helped keep us from destroying ourselves as a species. ”
Have we read the same history of man?
Without God…there really is no reason why anything goes shouldn’t be the norm…Some people…like yourself…have goodness and empathy…You think it came from evolution…I think it is based on something much higher
Funny…many atheists are supersitious, believe in luck, psyhic experiences, believe in a type of karma…
I have always felt that just about everybody believes in a Higher Power…sometimes it manifests as patriotism, nationalism, tribalism, sports fanaticism, culture, art, literature…
Just another randomish thought
I’m not saying that other baser instincts do not sometimes prevail over empathy, but without empathy we would have likely gone extinct long ago. There is a clear benefit for members of a species to treat each other well and cooperate together for survival.
I fail to see how wanting to believe in something greater than yourself has anything to do with whether god exists. I claim no absolute knowledge one way or the other but I find the concept unnecessary and unlikely.
Optimist,
With the iblees thing, not sure what you mean when you refer to iblees as a ‘person’. From my understanding, Iblees is more comparable to the malai’ka, not humans. The idea of Iblees’s influence on humans is linked to their ‘Imaan’. Someone disciplined and committed towards to the religion and its rulings is less likely to be influenced by ‘waswasat’ iblees. I don’t see how that does away with the ‘mea culpa’ aspect of it…If you sin, you are putting yourself in a position which makes it more likely they will sin; lack of ‘taqwa’ and seeking sins..i.e. making themselves more susceptible to iblees’s influence. I don’t see a lack of logic in that.
When reciting the Quran, or when looking into a certain ‘theme’ or clarifying the Quran’s view on any particular area, you do not have to stick to the order it is in. The Quran is after all more of a guide than a story, even though storytelling is a method in use to convey that guidance. Again, from my understanding, it was ordered that way during the days of Uthman and influenced by how the prophet recited it every Ramadan, hence the practice of doing so by muslims. The order of the Surahs is not chronological (i.e. the first sura was not conveyed to the prophet first), but was confirmed through the recitations of the prophet to the angel Gibriel.
The Surahs were brought down with relevance to events or struggles the muslims were going through at the time. I do not see how that would render it irrelevant. If it is the word of God and it is recorded for muslims through his angel, to his prophet, it would defy logic to me to have it become inapplicable for eterntiy. Afterall, al islam salih li kuli zaman wa makan, right? Is Islam not reliant a great deal on the Quran, on the fact that although the words in it were relevant to past events, the themes are applicable to modern times?
I totally agree with you on the difficulty of solidifying the authenticity of hadith and prioritising them, and therefore the difficulty in applying Sharia appropriately on muslims. However, I do not see how the fact it is difficult would make it faulty. Something which I touched on previously in my past posts here, is the correct environment and rule you need to apply sharia the way it should be applied.
The ideal structure for muslims to follow when deciding on what is right from wrong, what is permitted and what is not, is Quran-Hadith-Ulama-Self. The Quran is there, unedited as far as we muslims believe. The other 3 are obviously not as straightforward.
The Hadith and Ulama are interlinked somehow. A large part of deriving rulings from the Quran and the Hadith, by the Ulama, is the concept of accountability. Considering there is appropriate Islamic rule in place (covering political, economic and social aspects), the responsibility of following a fatwa or ruling lies on the scholar or leadership issuing it. Which emphasises the importance of having proper scholars, with effective oversight/’regulation’.
That leaves the ’self’. I am totally against leaving the practice of our religion at the mercy of our ‘approach’. There are too many variables which simply does not make it viable for me; the reality of ‘peer pressure’ and the importance of the community vs. individualism side of Islam, the reluctance to use more knowledgeable sources due to the mistrust directed at current scholars, the fact that certain people are more vulnerable than others to wrongdoings (some people will get tipsy from a drop, some will drink Amy Winehouse under the table), the fact that you WILL have have breakaway groups coming up with their own rulings and ways of doing things (soon enough you will have people claiming that leaning on their knees reading ‘Al Fatihah, with eyes closed once before they sleep is adequate enough to them when it comes to praying). Sure, appreciating what God has given us, including the ability to overcome what was taken away from us, should and could serve as motivation to be pious. But is that the reality of how it would be for ALL muslims? Or should we wait until everyone gets to that point? I doubt we will be able to deal with all the sacrificial damage.
Apologies for the ’spiritual’ bit. Lazy use of words
Optimist
My opinion as a non-Muslim..
You guys set up a system that sure sounds a WHOLE lot like the Jewish one..we with our Talmud, Commentaries…rulings on commentaries etc.
Me…I don’t trust anybody doing interpretation for me and give them NO authority…ZERO over my life. To say the original commentaries were divine revelation is, to me…a self-serving joke.
And then we move to our modern-day intepreters, Jews, Catholics, Muslims…other Christians…fully flawed human beings…I might respect their scholarship…maybe…but I do not believe for a single minute they are any more connected to what God wants than you or I are. And on top of that…I very much wonder how many of them are not serving various hidden agendas and how much they care and you and me…
I don’t trust them any more than I trust the police, judges, the Internal Revenue Service…just people…some good, some bad…all with power.
Howie, I noticed that you are selective in answering questions. I ask you again, who is responsible for immorality and evil?
Drima-
What do I doubt? I sometimes doubt the nature of my own existence. Do I exist in the ways that I think I do? Why am I me and not someone else? Are we all each other but for a different set of circumstances?
Drima, thanks to recall me as being one of your friends
Well, I haven’t already read all the comments, though when Drima ask me to be part of his heretics club, I understood it in a “secular” context of discussions. I am the one who often is not complying to the general discourse of an assembly, even if it was a french one, I try to get a personal approach even if most of the times I have to justify my country policy, also I don’t choose to go where I’ll be agreeing with the people views, but rather where I am contested , It is also where I met the most interesting persons.
I love Sufisim.
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