Here’s Amru’s comment about the current unfortunate “fireworks display” in Gaza, and here’s my reply.
Enjoy!
A Reply to Amru :)
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Excellent reply, Drima.
Shalom.
Robert Fisk: Why do they hate the West so much, we will ask
So once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. Forty civilian refugees dead in a United Nations school, three more in another. Not bad for a night’s work in Gaza by the army that believes in “purity of arms”. But why should we be surprised?
Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?
What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties. “Israel makes every possible effort to avoid civilian casualties,” yet another Israeli ambassador said only hours before the Gaza massacre. And every president and prime minister who repeated this mendacity as an excuse to avoid a ceasefire has the blood of last night’s butchery on their hands. Had George Bush had the courage to demand an immediate ceasefire 48 hours earlier, those 40 civilians, the old and the women and children, would be alive.
What happened was not just shameful. It was a disgrace. Would war crime be too strong a description? For that is what we would call this atrocity if it had been committed by Hamas. So a war crime, I’m afraid, it was. After covering so many mass murders by the armies of the Middle East – by Syrian troops, by Iraqi troops, by Iranian troops, by Israeli troops – I suppose cynicism should be my reaction. But Israel claims it is fighting our war against “international terror”. The Israelis claim they are fighting in Gaza for us, for our Western ideals, for our security, for our safety, by our standards. And so we are also complicit in the savagery now being visited upon Gaza.
I’ve reported the excuses the Israeli army has served up in the past for these outrages. Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them: that the Palestinians killed their own refugees, that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins, that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction, or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover.
The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel’s right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel’s own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin’s government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn’t even apologise.
Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.
And I write the following without the slightest doubt: we’ll hear all these scandalous fabrications again. We’ll have the Hamas-to-blame lie – heaven knows, there is enough to blame them for without adding this crime – and we may well have the bodies-from-the-cemetery lie and we’ll almost certainly have the Hamas-was-in-the-UN-school lie and we will very definitely have the anti-Semitism lie. And our leaders will huff and puff and remind the world that Hamas originally broke the ceasefire. It didn’t. Israel broke it, first on 4 November when its bombardment killed six Palestinians in Gaza and again on 17 November when another bombardment killed four more Palestinians.
Yes, Israelis deserve security. Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948 – when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel – is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.
__________________
“Robert Fisk: Why do they hate the West so much, we will ask”
Perhaps the people of Gaza should ask themselves why the Israelis hate them so much?
“Israel broke it”
Robert Fisk is a well-informed as usual. During the entire cease-fire Hamas continued firing rockets at Israel. In fact from what I hear the frequency had increased during the “cease-fire”.
Israelis do indeed deserve security.
And if they cannot get it, Israel WILL act.
Frankly, I don’t care if the people of Gaza leave Israel alone because they think murdering Jews is wrong or if they leave Israel alone because they think Israel is evil and overreacts when attacked. I only care that they leave Israel alone.
“The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel’s right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies”
Yeah, but that didn’t stop the world from blaming a Jew for it, while the perpetrator fled to Syria where he found shelter.
Robert Fisk REALLY has to start doing some research. It’s been ridiculous for a while.
Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel’s 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?
It’s been a while since I’ve seen Fisk blatantly lie - he doesn’t actually do that often. But this time, he very much did.
Death tolls, eh? Alright. Fisk conveniently forgets that the 1982 war in Lebanon had more than one foreign party - it had three, in fact.
The PLO, Israel, and Syria.
Fisk also conveniently forgets that this was in the middle of the Lebanese Civil War - which means there were about a dozen, even more, Lebanese armed factions in an all-out war against each other, the Syrians, the PLO, and Israeli forces.
But Fisk, of course, places all the blame at Israel’s doorstep.
But where’s the lie, you ask? In the death toll. Fisk folded the PLO dead, the Syrian army dead, and the Lebanese militiamen dead into the civilian casualty rate. That’s not just bad journalism from someone who covered the war back then - it’s an outright lie.
In the Sabra and Chatila massacre, he does it again, absolving the Lebanese phalangists of all blame - as if they were mere pawns, rather than acting in revenge after the PLO’s massacres.
Qana, 1996, during Operation Grapes of Wrath - Israel then had a policy of immediate artillery response of fire to the location of any katyusha rocket attacks. Such fire originated from two positions near the UN headquarters in Qana, which the UN investigation itself noted. The artillery crew fucked-up though. Instead of hitting the two points of origin, they hit two *other* points - one of them empty ground, the other close to the UN HQ.
http://www.undemocracy.com/S-1996-337/page_6/rect_47,1018_949,1260
What I find amusing is this - there were two launch sites near the UN HQ. Hence, there would have been two targets for the artillery crew to respond to - and yet, and I’m not sure how this was concluded and who messed up what info along the way, the UN investigation claimed this fact as evidence of Israel deliberately attacking the UN compound.
Now, let us think reasonably about that for a moment. Two launch sites would equal two targets to hit, right? Apparently, wrong.
And yet, even as Israel immediately admitted to the mistake and having taken full responsibility for it, Fisk accuses Israelis of a deliberate massacre of civilians for no apparent reason… interesting.
Apparently, Israelis do this on purpose. Israelis are evil, you see.
Marwahin, where the IDF warned the citizens of the village to depart due to increasing attacks in the area (the IDF does this, you see - it warns the civilian populace of attacks), but then a civilian convoy departing the village got hit by an IAF helicopter, after said helicopter was operating in the area hitting Hezbollah launch sites, as well as rocket-laden trucks going on that very road.
So yeah, the IAF heli pilot fucked-up, and innocent people died. That doesn’t stop Fisk from implying a sinister plot wherein the IDF lures poor, unsuspecting civilians to get shot. Without even the smallest shred of actual factual information.
And the “Almost all of them civilians” dead claim of the 2006 Lebanon war… You know, Hezbollah itself claimed 250 of its fighters were killed in the conflict. That already makes Robert Fisk look like a total idiot. The UN places Hezb’s dead at 500, whereas Israel closer to 600.
Even Hezb’s death toll claim is nowhere near to Fisk’s hyperbole.
And as for Fisk’s comparison to the Balkan Wars, where tens of thousands of civilians were killed, many brutally murdered in organized massacres akin to the one in Srebrenica… Hell, people were forced, at gunpoint, to dig their own graves there.
Yep, I think Fisk is finally finishing the journey of destroying his journalistic credibility. Where once was a reporter who went to warzones and reported events from the field, there is now little more than a two-bit political commenter with a view so utterly skewed and biased that he doesn’t bother with what he limited himself to in the past.
Facts.
Actually he later served as a minister in the Lebanese government.
I liked this part
These guys crossed the border, killed the soldiers, then ambushed a rescue force and killed a few more, shelled border towns as a diversion tactic injuring dozens of civilians. And Fisk says they just captured two Israeli soldiers. I like Fisk. He is really something
I like Fisk. He is really something
I liked him more when he was still beholden to some ethical code of journalism as a war reporter.
Then he became just another political opinion columnist with a supposedly glorious past, and that was that.
I lived in Israel when the 1982 war broke out…Memories are very short in terms of what that was all about…It had to happen…after the first two weeks or so…that is when, in my opinion, Begin and Sharon made the biggest blunder in modern Israel governmental history…they had pretty much crushed the PLO and it was time to go…they didn’t and after that a mess was created…much of it against a huge part of Israeli public opinion…
In terms of Sabra and Shatila…I remember 10’s of thousands of Israeli’s taking to the streets in protest…even though we didn’t do it…
When was the last time there was Arab protest against the killing of innocent Israel’s?
When was the last celebration?
It is a tired debate…full of lies and distortions, mostly by the Arab side…certainly there is no responsibility taken for the mess from that side…just about ZERO…
Oh…I have to share a new one with you guys…I have dropped by some Palestinian demonstrations lately…they are into yelling stuff like “Jews to the ovens” and “death to the Jews”…but one gal, when I asked her if Israeli babies count for anything…she told me I was a Nazi and a KKK…cool…Howie in the KKK…
Even better…my sister when to a demonstration…the Palestinians were also calling them Nazis and “fuck you” and all that…but the best part was when some ACTUAL skinheads came by and flipped off the Jews and said “fuck you”….
So…who has more in common with the skinheads…them or us? The skinheads seem to side with the Palestinians….why am I not surprised? More in common me thinks…
“Jews to the ovens”
That is legitimate criticism of Israel’s policies.
I have been told.
By Yvonne Ridley
January 19, 2009 “Information Clearinghouse” — - TRY as he might, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert can not snatch any sort of victory out of the jaws of defeat that are closing down on the failed Zionist project.
This, quite simply, is the beginning of the end for Israel.
The only thing Israel has proved it can do militarily better than anyone else is kill innocent women and children. And in its genocidal drive to wipe the Palestinian people from existence it has dealt itself a fatal blow.
In the belief they would seize an easy victory from the people of Gaza, after retreating broken and humiliated by Hizb’Allah in Lebanon two years earlier, Israel once again learned what happens when you underestimate the enemy.
Gaza has been reduced to piles or rubble in some areas as Zionist bombs pounded the tiny coastal strip by land, sea and air. It was a ruthless, brutal campaign deliberately timed for the final weeks of George W Bush’s US presidency and before the start of the Israeli elections.
Olmert and Tzipi Livni, the daughter of a war criminal and terrorist (well, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, does it?) boasted how they would crush Hamas and stop the Qassam rockets from being fired into Israel.
And so, playing the victim yet again, the Zionist State unleashed the might of its army - the fourth largest in the world - on the most densely populated piece of land on Earth, claiming it needed to stop a few tin rockets powered by fertiliser fuel heading towards land stolen from the Palestinians in the first place. Oh, the irony of it all.
By trying to win hearts and minds they enlisted the support of Zionist think tanks who would go into overdrive to try and discredit Hamas and its supporters through TV and newspaper columns. Some of the accusations laid against Hamas were plain ridiculous and silly and fooled no one apart from the commissioning editors.
As I write this article I am watching Olmert on the BBC speaking at a news conference with European leaders saying he wants Israeli troops to leave Gaza “as quickly as possible”. Meanwhile Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, is on al-Aqsa TV praising his people for their courage and bravery and saying they have won a great victory over Israel.
And indeed they have.
The drive to crush Hamas has failed - in fact many of the millions across the world who marched against the war proudly and loudly declared: “We are all Hamas”.
The cries shocked Olmert, Livni and co who, in their breath-taking arrogance believed the world would stand by and applaud from the sidelines as they went to war with the people of Gaza.
What happened instead was demonstrations, riots, anarchy and outrage from ordinary people pouring out of just about every city on the planet. This was the moment when another battle was launched: People Power versus the politicians. And ‘we’ the people won it easily.
Leaders who once said they supported Israel began putting a distance between themselves and Tel Aviv. The gaggle of belly-dancing Arab leaders began to dance to a different tune while some of the Arab world’s most brutal dictators clamped down even more on their own citizens seeing coups and plots, real or imaginary, at every turn.
Shameful ’scholars for dollars’ issued fatwas proclaiming demonstrations were haram … these same sheikhs were full of praise for those of us who rallied and marched to show our anger over the vile Danish cartoons which ridiculed The Prophet Mohamed (pbuh). Such hypocrisy reveals them for what they are - men without honour or integrity.
Oh how the Middle East could do with some revolutionary figures like Venezeula’s Hugo Chavez who kicked out the Israeli Ambassador and then Bolivia followed suit.
But perhaps the most devastating blow to Israel came from one time Gulf ally, The Emir of Qatar who ended trade relations with the rogue state.
We still do not know how many Israeli soldiers have died … it is a figure Olmert is trying to keep quiet. No public, ceremonial funerals are shown on TV in Tel Aviv. The Israelis, so used to playing the victim for the American and European media, have not been able to publicly display their mourning to the world. Could it be that mothers, wives and daughters of the dead would want to blame the Israeli government for yet another failed campaign?
It is a far cry from the week before, when Olmert regaled a cheering crowd in Ashkelon about how he telephoned George W Bush and interrupted him in the middle of a speech he was making in Philadelphia and told him to instruct Condaleezza Rice not to vote for a UN resolution Condi herself had written. Bush did as he was told, said Olmert to roars of approval.
I hope Barrack Obama and Hilary Clinton take note.
And I hope they realise now that the democratically elected Hamas are the only party in town to sit down and negotiate with. Failed Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas should now viewed as collateral damage. His credibility has gone and any deal he made with Israel over this shameful period will soon be revealed. By the way, I understand his luxury villa in Gaza is about the only building that is free of shrapnel, shells or bullet marks. It certainly survived the bombing in a district which was attacked without mercy. Funny that!
Gaza will rise again from the rubble with its people even stronger than before. They are an example to resistance fighters across the world and they will go down in history for their bravery and courage.
In a few years time children across the Middle East will be raised on the her oic stories and exploits of the people of Gaza. And as they are safely tucked up in their beds, they’ll probably ask: “So what did happen to Israel? Did it really exist?”
Yvonne Ridley is a co-Founder of SGS - Stop Gaza Slaughter. Her website is http://www.yvonneridley.org She was also part of the Free Gaza Movement and was on one of two boats to break the siege of Gaza and sail into the port for the first time in more than 40 years last August. She and film-maker Aki Nawaz are producing a documentary for Press TV about the historic voyage.
“Yvonne Ridley is a co-Founder of SGS - Stop Gaza Slaughter. ”
Let me guess. She “founded” this thing a long time after the Arabs started the war and as she says above, she hopes that they will grow stronger again and fight once more.
Don’t you just love those pro-war activists?
Oh my, and here I thought that Robert Fisk was doing bad journalism. The above piece just breaks the record. Then again, Yvonne Ridley is that extreme left-wing reporter who had a PLO colonel as her first husband, and who converted to become a radical Muslim after spending time in Taliban captivity back in 2001. If it were anyone else, I would have said it was due to Stockholm Syndrome - as it is, I think she just found actual kindred spirits in the Taliban, with the exception of their treatment of her as a woman.
Yvonne Ridley, the reporter who was fired by Al-Jazeera for being too vocal and argumentative. She was fired from Al-Jazeera for being a fanatical idiot, for crying out loud… the good woman is now playing propaganda reporting for Iran’s Press TV.
Tell me, Just Me… Was there an actual point in bringing an article so utterly biased, so full of blind hatred and “well wishes” for utter destruction of an entire country? With outright lies?
Here’s an example:
the Zionist State unleashed the might of its army - the fourth largest in the world - on the most densely populated piece of land on Earth, claiming it needed to stop a few tin rockets powered by fertiliser fuel heading towards land stolen from the Palestinians in the first place.
The Israeli army is nowhere near the largest - not even the top 10. It’s all the way down at number 23.
And here I was, wondering if Israel had an army that was almost as big as that of China, Russia, or the United States… or not, because I actually know how many people live here.
Nor is Gaza the “the most densely populated piece of land on Earth”. That kind of title is reserved to places like Japanese cities, Hong-Kong and the bigger cities of mainland China, and Monaco.
Yes, Monaco. Funny, that. Over four times the population density of the Gaza Strip.
And as for tin-can rockets with fertilizer fuel… perhaps the good woman would like to be bombed by a few of them to see how it’s like. They blow up just like any other rocket, and throw shrapnel around like any other rocket - their only drawback is the lack of control over trajectory - which Hamas constantly acted to improve.
And then there’s all those Iranian and Chinese-made long-range rockets that Hamas threw around during the past three weeks like there’s no tomorrow…
But of course, Yvonne Ridley thinks Hamas are the good guys, and that Israel should be erased from the face of the earth. So *obviously*, Israel is Evil - and Hamas is democratic and does nothing wrong…
Good Lawd…
Yvonne Ridley has to be on crack…has to be…
But her words are so indicative of how the other side seems to think…I just very very very rarely hear from an anti-Israel type that can make any real sense…much less come up with some kind of solution to the issue…just the typical whack attack…
Reminds of when my kid came home from 9th grade where he had a debate with a Palestinian kid (rich little refugee I might add…sufferng in his BMW which his family benefitted from the evil USA that helps Israel kill his people)…who told him that Israel has killed “10 million Palestinians”…
I mean…is the entire Muslim world just about 87% nuts? Do they fully lack any objectivity or insight?
Wow…just bizarre stuff…over and over and over.
“I mean…is the entire Muslim world just about 87% nuts?”
Yes. About 87%. Why do you ask?
I don’t understand why some people keep copy posting whole articles, it makes the thread difficult to read. People should be intelligent enough to be able to summarize main points, that’s enough. If one is so dumb that he can’t do it, then post the link. Why should anybody be scrolling for hours through this shit.
I don’t understand why some people keep copy posting whole articles, it makes the thread difficult to read.
Good point.
I know these things have long happened in Israel…I don’t many Arabs outside of Israel know these things go on…but for those with an appreciation for the gray complexities of life;
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232643726282&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
RK…
Oh…sorry…
Next time I will post the entire article
thank you. very good article
Zayiflama..
Glad you like it…one of the things I read into it is that there are people who are less tribal in there thinking and that…well maybe this couple was a bit screwy…don’t know…but you can see they see the world in more idealistic, hopeful and universalistic terms…
Idealism usually flops…reminds me of the many mixed Jewish-Christian couples I know…if one side starts getting more into their roots or religion…then things get real funky.
This couple is a bit more like the world SHOULD be…at least in many ways…it is a sad thing…but I guess my main point is that life is nuanced….textured, complex, confused, contradictory…just does not line up into the absolutes we sometimes see discussed.
Drima (The Sudanese Zionist), I apologize for the late reply as I have just returned back from a month long visit to Sudan, which I’ve turned into a yearly thing to keep myself on par with the reality on the ground… maybe it’s something you should consider as well Mr. ‘Sudanese’ Thinker
Thank you for the reply and the topic which you solely dedicated to my reply in an attempt to paint yourself as being personally targeted, attacked and labeled. Which I’m surprised that you took as a fallacy, you must have forgot our previous debate in which you staunchly defended Zionism as a “Good” Nationalist movement and invited me to read more about it, in this case you should not be offended nor should this be viewed as a fallacy, it’s simply a fact my friend. I harbor no ill feelings towards you or else I would not visit your blog
I find it funny how you took my simple question, ran away with it and made it into how I defend Hamas… can you please point out where I said anything in support of Hamas? As a matter of fact I didn’t even mention Hamas anywhere… you should first ask me about Hamas before putting words into my mouth as if you know what it is I think… And you want me to look up fallacies and what a fallacy is? LOL
Personally I don’t subscribe to Hamas’s doctrine and from early debates I predicted that the ‘democratic’ election of Hamas will bring more problems to the Palestinians than solutions to their current problems. Here you would run and yell “Hamas are terrorists” that’s why the world is against them, while I may not agree with their methodology in resistance the fact is they are fighting a legitimate fight against an occupying entity that has built a nation on top of the refugee’s lands and has oppressed the Palestinians from day 1. Bear in mind that this entity exists in a world where the balance of power lies solely in the hands of the United States of America which provides blind support and cover for this entity.
You must first ask yourself why Palestinians brought Hamas to power, who/what is Hamas, and analyze what happened to Yassir Arfat who made Israel’s right to exist on Palestinian land legitimate by accepting it for nothing in return but to be jailed in his own compound for the rest of his life while Palestinian land shrinks, an apartheid wall is being built to steal more land and all Palestinians being placed in a big jail with Israel being the only police force. Yet again Israel wants the same from Hamas, to accept its right to exist on Palestinian land without anything in return.
Palestinians have every right to resist Israel’s occupation of their land, denial of their rights as refugees and oppression. What you choose to debate is your prerogative, being a victim to excessive brainwashing and trying to imply that you are making sure the Arab world does not forget about ‘criminal’ Hamas while defending Israel by blaming Hamas for the results war is utter bias.
Please keep in mind when Hamas was formed (in the late 80’s, an Islamist organization opposed to the leftist PLO) and how long Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians, maybe that will help you understand why many of us put more blame on Israel because it is without any doubt the root cause of the Middle East conflict.
I no longer have interest in your ‘breakdown’ of resistance (as I have no interest for the Government of Sudan’s breakdown of resistance) because someone who does not accept the right of return of REFUGEES to their land; cannot comprehend resistance, someone who can sit back and watch defenseless people being butchered by an advanced military machine and blames the victims; cannot comprehend resistance. What happened in Gaza is clear genocide, from dropping cluster bombs on civilian populated areas to the use of banned weapons against civilian populations, refusal of the right of return of the survivors, in addition to the bombardment of the UN mission and schools housing refugee’s (who fled fled from refugee camps).
You say less passion eh? I say climb out of your hole and realize why most of your readers and those who are your cheerleaders are Zionist and why everyone else is asking you to check yourself.
South Africa during the Apartheid regime was considered as a member of what Bush Sr. termed “The Free World” and the ANC and Nelson Mandela were designated as terrorist… it’s about time that you realize that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter… be fair to yourself and the countless Palestinians who have been butchered, forced into exile (to never see their homes again) and those who have remained to live as prisoners .
Just because I disagree with you does not mean I view you as a ‘traitor’. Keep pursuing knowledge, build your own opinion free from influence (influence can be many things
) and don’t be afraid to voice your opinion even if you do feel personally attacked (even though it is not my intention) 
Salam
“Palestinians have every right to resist Israel’s occupation of their land”
No, they don’t.
Jews bought land in Israel when it was still Turkish and then British, settled on it, and the Arabs attacked them. The land was NEVER Arab land. The only original claim is Jewish and the Jews never surrendered the claim.
Furthermore, there is no right in international law allowing anyone to resist anything by attacking civilians, and the “Palestinians” have ALWAYS “resisted” by attacking civilians.
And ultimately, there would be no occupation if the Arabs had not attacked Israel again and again. The PLO, supposedly meant to liberate occupied “Palestine”, was founded years before the “occupation” started.
There is no “right to resist occupation” as the Arabs understand it and there never has been. It’s an Arab invention to legalise the murder of Jews.
I grew up in territory occupied by the US. But if I had tried to murder a few American school children, I doubt anybody would have believed the excuse that I “have a right to resist occupation”. And quite in spite of what people like you believe, Arabs are NOT a higher people with different rights. _I_ don’t have a right to kill school children and _Arabs_ do not have that right either.
But as long as they claim that right (and whatever they call it), there will be war.
And while I am not religious, I do rely on the plain historical fact of Israel’s survival when I say that I don’t believe that G-d will allow anyone, however evil or fake-religious, to invade the land of Israel in the foreseeable future; even if the enemy calls himself “invaders” (”Palestinians”).
“South Africa during the Apartheid regime was considered as a member of what Bush Sr. termed “The Free World” ”
No, it wasn’t.
And neither should the Arab apartheid regimes.
LOL @ Andrew I just won a bet that you will be the first one to reply and as usual with your own brand of history. So now even South Africa during the Apartheid regime was not considered a Member of the Free World by the USA?
You need help my friend!
Salam
“your own brand of history”
Yeah, REAL history, without the changes taught to Arabs. Get used to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-w
Yes, Amru, guess what; Israelis know about victims on BOTH sides.
As I said, REAL history, without the changes.
LOL Andrew are you trying to tell me something new here? Just because I want a just solution for Palestinians doesn’t have to mean that I don’t know that there are many good and humane Israeli’s! nor does it have to mean that I support Hamas or their tactics. All Israel is doing right now is creating more hatred towards it and it’s citizens. Allow the refugees back home, end the ocupation, end the seige, free the prisoners and allow peace a chance. You can’t lie and kill your way to peace.
LOL Andrew are you trying to tell me something new here? Just because I want a just solution for Palestinians doesn’t have to mean that I don’t know that there are many good and humane Israelis! nor does it have to mean that I support Hamas or their tactics. All Israel is doing right now is creating more hatred towards it and its citizens. Allow the refugees back home, end the occupation, end the siege, free the prisoners and allow peace a chance. You can’t lie and kill your way to peace.
“All Israel is doing right now is creating more hatred towards it and it’s citizens. Allow the refugees back home, end the occupation, end the seige, free the prisoners and allow peace a chance.”
That was the offer Israel made in 1948. The Arab answer was WAR.
Can you tell me why I should believe that it would be different this time?
As for this specific case: the occupation of Gaza was ended and the borders were open. And the people of Gaza voted Hamas into power on a platform of war against Israel.
Apparently, Amru, and I dare you to find examples that suggest otherwise, ending occupations and sieges results in Arab attacks.
Maybe there will be a second Sadat, or maybe there was one and the terrorists murdered him before he could say “shalom” this time; either way, it doesn’t look to me as if the people of Gaza want peace.
It’s up to them, really. Israel has already said it would open the borders if Gilad Shalit is returned. Let’s both watch whether the people of Gaza want open borders more than they want a Jewish prisoner to torture. If they return him, I’ll gladly agree with you that ending the siege would be a good thing.
It’s up to them, really. Israel has already said it would open the borders if Gilad Shalit is returned. Let’s both watch whether the people of Gaza want open borders more than they want a Jewish prisoner to torture. If they return him, I’ll gladly agree with you that ending the siege would be a good thing.
See Andrew it is this same mentality of collective punishment that Suicide Bombers use to justify killing innocent people in a bus. To you killing and starving thousands of innocent people is okay because a soldier was taken by the enemy. To them the enemy has taken thousands of prisoners, butchered thousands, stole their land, and oppressed their people so it’s okay to kill innocent people on the other end. You are as guilty as those u claim to be terrorizing you.
No, Amru, it’s not the same.
“Collective punishment” requires a crime. The existence of Jews, even in “Palestine” is not a crime that anyone can be punished for. But rockets fired at schools and a population supporting such terrorism IS a crime.
If the Arabs stopped firing rockets, there would be no “collective punishment”, and neither would there be “collective punishment” if the terrorists didn’t use human shields. Israeli fire follows the terrorist, not the human shield.
But there is nothing a Jew can do except die that will stop Hamas terrorists. Nothing at all.
Let’s both watch whether the people of Gaza want open borders more than they want a Jewish prisoner to torture.
This still remains to be seen.
A good read about the on going conflict;
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/09/wedeman.israel.elections.westbank/index.html
“”Since the last election in the spring of 2006, Palestinians have seen Israel and Hezbollah go to war, West Bank settlements continue to expand, Hamas and Fatah fight it out in Gaza with Hamas taking control in June 2007.
They’ve also seen a series of Israeli incursions into Gaza, culminating recently in the 22-day Israeli offensive that left large parts of the strip in ruins.
Meanwhile many Palestinians say their leadership — often described as moderate and pro-western — in Ramallah is incapable of reversing the trend of settlement expansion.
The same leadership has been unable to convince Israel to remove few of the hundreds of roadblocks and checkpoints that make travelling around the West Bank a test of patience and endurance.
In short, when Palestinians look back over the last 15 years since the Oslo Accords were signed, they’ve seen their lot only go from bad to worse.
As a result, more and more Palestinians are convinced the only way to beat the Israelis is to join them, to discard failed attempts at creating a Palestinian state in an ever smaller, ever more economically unviable territory, and go for what is known as the one-state solution.
That would mean Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza relinquishing their dream of an independent Palestinian state, and instead insisting on equal rights in the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean, an area that is, for all intents and purposes, under Israel’s control anyway.
The one-state solution is an anathema to many Israelis, who are well aware that, with their higher birth-rate, Palestinians (those living within Israel proper, plus Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza) could well become a majority within a generation.
Israelis increasingly worry the national struggle between Israel and the Palestinians will be transformed into an internal struggle, for equal rights for all those living within historic Palestine.
Those fears prompted Israel’s current caretaker prime minister, Ehud Olmert, to warn as far back as November 2007 that if Israel doesn’t move quickly to achieve a two-state solution, it will be in a position not unlike South Africa during the apartheid area, whereby a minority — in this case Israeli Jews — rules over a restive majority — the Palestinians — by means of force, repression and discriminatory laws.
Many Palestinians argue that is already the case, citing Israeli restrictions on movement, residence, and work.”"
“”Back in the town of Na’alin, the kids throwing stones at Israeli troops do have some odd companions. Young Israelis, some of them self-described anarchists, also take part in the protests.
They don’t throw stones, but they do offer useful advice. “Laththam! Laththam!” one Israeli with black tattoos on his arms tells a young boy, no older than 12, hurling rocks with a home-made sling.
“Laththam” is Arabic for “cover your face,” the advice imparted because if Israeli troops can identify stone throwers, they arrest them.
There still is cooperation of sorts between Palestinians and Israelis, but it’s an increasingly rare commodity. And this election probably won’t do anything to bridge the growing gap between the two — the curious friendship in Na’alin notwithstanding. “”
Amru…
Well…you miss the most important point…Palestinians have always had war and terror as their main platform for achieving their goals and putting Hamas into power has only reinforced that.
Meanwhile…Israel, partially in response to this, has grown stronger and more right leaning.
The settlement thing is a joke…a minute part of the Israeli population lives in settlements are you know them or think you know them…just a pure joke.
Stop terror…things will quickly get much better…continue terror and Israel is going to lash back…lash back increasingly harder I hope…I deservedly so.
“In short, when Palestinians look back over the last 15 years since the Oslo Accords were signed, they’ve seen their lot only go from bad to worse.”
If so…100% Palestinian fault…never gave up terror…oh…and that is what roadblocks are for…to keep people from wandering into pre-schools and public busses and blowing themselves up. Stop terror and down come the roadblocks.
We have “roadblocks” too…like being searched by our own people just about anywhere we go…because of terror…
I have heard your type of argument before…it makes some sense, but ignores the facts…many Palestinians want to kill us…so we react…and then they act like victims and sucker in people like you to blame Israel for all their ills, which are primarily created by about 100 years of horrible leadership and bad, delusional decisions.
Great Article. Thanks. I agree
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