My previous post, (which was meant to be taken with a grain of salt, if I may add) got some nice attention that gave me chuckles. So, here I am hammering out this one quickly as a serious humble alternative.
Instead of tearing it, I challenge you all either to build upon it or provide a workable alternative. Otherwise, the discussions won’t serve a “progressive” purpose that moves us forward.
And if you’re still not done venting, do so on the previous post, not this one.
Now, let me make this as straight forward as possible. I’m not interested in the “you started it, no you started it” conversations. Moreover, this shouldn’t be taken as a comprehensive solution. I can’t do that in a single short blog post.
What I would like to see is an end to the killing as soon as possible, and something constructive.
Israel can invade Gaza all it wants but it’s not going to destroy Hamas, not without incurring a significant death toll on its own army and on many innocent Palestinians. It’s going to fail just like it did in the recent war with Lebanon when it stated the destruction of Hezbollah as it’s goal.
Never happened then, and ain’t gonna happen now with Hamas. Another failure is inevitable. But I’ll tell you what succeeded in the last Israel-Lebanon war…
… the buffer zone. It worked rather nicely.
Old time readers of this blog know I don’t look up to the UN as the big benevolent daddy capable of solving all the world’s problems, the least of them being ones involving lots of bombs and blood. It’s broken, nearly outmoded and at times outright terrible.
For example, in Congo UN peacekeepers did nothing as the genocide unfolded. They did a pretty shitty job and had an even shittier mandate. Need I also mention Darfur?
Here’s the deal. Just because airplanes crash once in a while doesn’t mean we should stop using them for air travel. The buffer zone is so far working well in preventing another outbreak of violence between Israel and Lebanon.
Furthermore, you also have the DMZ in the Korean peninsula. It’s done miracles especially for South Korea and its economy.
What I’d like to see is those loud, bitchy, whinny nations complaining about the current violence, contributing their troops to an international peacekeeping force to be deployed to the Israel-Gaza border. Create a buffer zone there. Hamas will think twice about committing violence against international peacekeepers because it will risk invoking significant wrath if some peacekeepers die. It will face big difficulty firing its pathetic rockets into Israel too. On the other hand, Israel will stop raining big fat bombs and killing many innocent souls (aka “collateral damage”) in the process.
Next, once there is peace on the ground, formulate a plan involving certain countries with influence over Israel and Hamas (possibly oil-rich Arab countries and Western ones) to invest serious money into Gaza, while still making sure international peacekeepers are there to maintain stability for years to come.
The investors stand to reap a handsome ROI, while the Palestinians can begin to have more economic prosperity, hope and stability, three things which will make it hard for Hamas to flourish and recruit. Radical theology alone will become increasingly inadequate with more and more young Palestinians who’d rather live life, contribute to society and enjoy economic well-being.
As all the aforementioned happens, so can discussions between both sides over the big matters like Jerusalem. But at least with this kind of approach, the killing can be contained, and the perpetuation of violence can nosedive.
That’s pretty much the gist of my proposal in a nutshell.
- Buffer zone.
- Minimize violence.
- Economic prosperity.
Remember, if you’re going to tear it, I challenge you to provide your workable alternative. If you see holes, patch them. That way, we can have a progressive, constructive, solution-based conversation. And sorry there’s no “Michael Jackson, Heal the World” video this time.
Discuss. 
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
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Frankly, I trust the Lebanese army more than the UN troops in the buffer zone. (For example, I believe the Lebanese army at least don’t share offices with Hizbullah.)
Where would you create that buffer zone? Should we forcibly remove the Jews living in the area? Or the Arabs? And what would those UN troops do if Hamas kept firing rockets at Israel? Shoot at the children the terrorists use as human shields?
I think the current situation is not so bad. A few hundred casualties are nothing compared to usual wars between Arabs and others. And military victory is possible.
The best way to avoid civilian casualties is for Hamas not to fire rockets at them. I don’t understand why everybody acts as if civilian casualties are suddenly a problem when they hadn’t been for years (as long as they were Jewish).
Once Israel wins this, there won’t be civilian casualties any more, on neither side. Why is everyone trying to prolong a war that has lasted for over 60 years?
“Once Israel wins this”
Once? I think you meant *if* right?
There is no once in this case. Israeli isn’t going to succeed in destroying Hamas.
“Israel can invade Gaza all it wants but it’s not going to destroy Hamas, not without incurring a significant death toll on its own army and on many innocent Palestinians.”
You may be surprised. Many Gazans hate Hamas as oppressors. If they say otherwise that may be to avoid getting thrown from rooftops or having their legs cut off, as Hamas did to its Arab opponents when it took over the Strip. Why do you think Israel has been so careful to warn civilians, and its targeting info so accurate, if the primary reason for Israel’s success wasn’t the cooperation of the Gazans themselves?
Drima…
I can’t see anything working unless Hamas is willing to stop terror…to me…that is the #1 thing on the list…first position…Without that…it will certainly just be, maybe, a short break while they rearm with bigger and better weapons…
Solution…keep the pressure on until somebody on the Palestinian side can step up and make concessions. The biggest issue, of course, is pride and honor…and the Hamas types likely would rather see a million casualities before they would agree to something…
So it would have to be diplomatic back channels…Give back Gilad Shalit as a beginning gesture to create a degree of trust. We give back some prisoners as well. Make a genuine effort to knock off terror attacks and knock of the “we will kill them all” B.S.
After that….sure all the observers and buffer zones you want…but something clear has to be done about smuggling rockets and ceasing terror…without that…no deal…may as well keep on fighting because the whole thing will start all over again within 3 months of any “truce”. Only Hamas would be stronger and better armed.
Why is it that any agreement always seems to primarily start and end with Israeli capitulation? What about starting with a genuine gesture from Hamas? THAT is my recommendation…for once…for ONCE, let THEM say “we are going to do something much different and starting right now, just stop killing us”.
Without that…any other initiative is a very bad joke.
“Once? I think you meant *if* right?”
No. I believe in military victories.
I have no doubt that this is Israel vs. the world. If Israel can win this, the war might be close to an end. If Europe can manage to save Hamas, the war will continue.
Either way the war will continue until one side runs out of targets, i.e. once there are no more terrorists left, Israel will stop shooting, and once there are no more Jewish children left, Hamas and their ilk will stop shooting.
Until then I take the anti-war position and call for the quickest-possible end of the war to avoid further casualties on both sides.
AB…
Huh?
“Huh?”
You are confusing the current battle with the war. A unilateral cease-fire by Israel now would prolong the war.
AB…
Ah…you mikes are so good with words…or are you German…either way…too much beer.
Yes…I now see the point and yes…a unilateral ceasefire will prolong the war…as will continued fighting…as will dancing, cocktails, surfing, breathing, talking, not talking…
If something signficant does not change from the other side…there is NO HOPE.
I had long been in the camp of “what does Israel need to do?” And Israel has tried numerous things…all were spit right back in our faces…This time…let THEM come up with something.
Heh. It’s one of these things that sound good on paper, Drima. Hamas are too depraved and fanatical to bargain with. They will ALWAYS attack, no matter what.
And as for prosperity… I think I have mentioned it some time. I have served in Jericho during the half a year between Lebanon War and Intifada II. Very nice, very prosperous city. IDF and PA forces patrolling together and basically working as police. No garbage in the streets. Lots of shops, lots of tourists, a super-profitable Casino.
And they threw it all away in a day when they decided to attack Israel again. No more tourists. No more casino (which they used as snipers’ nest). No more shops and no more people with the money to buy in them. No more prosperity, no more security. For nothing.
Moreover, people do not become terrorists because of poverty. It’s a proven fact. People become terrorists because they’re fanatics. And being rich doesn’t cure one of fanaticism.
Man, having had experience with those HiZballeh-balls-licking terrorist protectors known as UNIFIL, Israel would be insane to agree to something like this again.
What Israel can do, however, is beat Hamas so hard they’ll stop being a threat to Fateh. And then withdraw.
Fateh can then exact revenge for Hamas shooting hundreds of their members in the legs and dozens in the head. Having done that, they can take control of the strip and get all their aid + border with Egypt + sea access. And they can make sure Hamas stays down by returning the knee-capping, on-the-spot-executing, jailing-and-torturing favor; and, of course, by violently crushing Hamas rallies as they do now.
In return, Israel gets Gilad Shalit and no rockets for a while - Fatah seem ready to spend a decade or so rearming before they attack again.
“Moreover, people do not become terrorists because of poverty. It’s a proven fact. People become terrorists because they’re fanatics. And being rich doesn’t cure one of fanaticism.”
Dennis Prager likes to say “poverty does not cause violence, value systems do”…
I agree with Abu…mo money won’t do one single bit of good. It would be manipulated in a manner to just piss people off more.
If poverty led to violence…Jews for starters would have a long history of violence and terrorism…fact is we just tended to be on the receiving end in our little ghettos. American Indians should be terrorists as should a whole lot of other people…but I digress.
I go back to what I have been saying…this time around…those other dudes have to make a new move. Their policies have led to nothing but disaster as Israel just gets bigger and stronger. They don’t see, after 100 years, that they have utterly failed in their approach?
Hey…but one dead Jew is worth another 100 years of misery
You know…does anybody think…that if the Hamas dudes had the chance, they would slaugther every last one of us…without the least bit of mercy?
When we are talking deals, that is what at least I have in mind. If they had the chance, there would be no deals, no thoughts of “collateral damage”, if they had the power…from babes to grannies…death…no mercy…death.
I know this to be true…so it is very hard for me to feel much pain for innocents…especially since only…and I mean only…about 60 have died after all the firepower has been directed into the area….and when Hamas cynically hides within civilian populations…
Oh..if they only had one…ONE great big fat bomb…where would they drop it…on a group of soldiers or on downtown Tel Aviv? You and I both know the answer to that one…
They have drained away my natural love for all mankind…
And once again…Hamas leadership is calling for the murder of Jews “everywhere in the world”…not Israeli soldiers, not just Israeli’s but Jews everywhere in the world.
So I guess we can expect another synagouge to go up in smoke in say….Mexico…
I am supposed to feel bad?
Why?
Wars have to eventually end, Drima. How do they end? When one side (or both) decide they don’t want to fight anymore. In this case, that hasn’t happened… so imposing yet another short-term ceasefire on people who aren’t done fighting is just postponing the inevitable. The status quo has to change, one way or another.
I don’t think using Lebanon as an example is helpful. The only reason that UN “buffer zone” has worked is because Iran has gotten everything it ever wanted in Lebanon. The IRI has worked for 25 years to get Lebanon to the place where it is right now, and they don’t want to jeopardize that. If HA is told to resume rocket and missile attacks on Israel tomorrow, do you think the UN peacekeepers will try to stop them? Do you think the Lebanese Army will? The apparent “restraint” of HA has nothing to do with the buffer-zone fiction. As far as the DMZ in Korea… that is enforced by Americans and South Koreans, not the UN… it is enforced by the combatants themselves, and was set up between the combatants as a condition of the ceasefire. The penalty for violating the DMZ is sudden death. Do you think that UN peacekeepers will enforce a buffer-zone with lethal force, no second chances? I do not. Sending UN personnel into Gaza just gives Hamas some human shields that aren’t Palestinians.
hey, I wouldn’t mind if the UN sent personnel to some of the border towns on the Israeli side, though. Maybe if Europeans start coming home in body bags, they’ll start to get it. One can always hope, anyway.
But I’ll tell you what succeeded in the last Israel-Lebanon war…
… the buffer zone. It worked rather nicely.
I disagree. And the buffer zone before last failed so miserably, it was downright hilarious watching UNIFIL pretending to be useful.
Is it useful today? Just for as long as Hezbollah considers it in its advantage to let it play.
Because Hezb can sweep away the current “buffed” version of UNIFIL with the same ease that Egypt ordered UNEF to depart the Gaza-Israel border area in 1967. And like UNEF, UNIFIL’s mandate is built around what its host government allows it to do. Which is why Hezb is getting its steady influx of foreign arms, and why UNIFIL didn’t find all that much arms and ammo to clear up…
Internal Lebanese politics are a complex issue. That Hezbollah isn’t heating up the border with Israel may be simply because it is not to its, or Iran’s, current interest to do so, rather than some positive UNIFIL effect.
Furthermore, you also have the DMZ in the Korean peninsula. It’s done miracles especially for South Korea and its economy.
That particular DMZ isn’t run by a defunct third party playing World Solidarity, but rather by the two countries themselves. Also, it was broken on several occasions, and owes its *relative* calm to the fact that it has soldiers from both sides covering every square inch.
North and South reached a pure military stalemate, and their patrons of the Cold War powers were not interested in the eruption of a major conflict after the first few attempts of total conquest failed.
Sadly, realities in the Middle-East *and* in Africa are radically different.
I agree with Roman and Abu-Sa’ar. The buffer zone in Lebanon isn’t working at all. It isn’t stopping Hezb from rearming, and it isn’t even stopping them from setting up launch sites for Katyushas - some of which were found only last week, not by the UN (who probably helped set them up) but by the Lebanese Army. The Lebanese Army is what is working in South Lebanon as a buffer between HA and Israel, and nothing else.
So no. No buffer zone. The Gaza strip isn’t big enough for one anyway - the entire strip would need to be a buffer zone.
i want to ask u one question , ( for drima only )
what is the diffrence between what israel is doing to right now , and what suicide bomers do all the time . ( i see no diffrence at all )
please annswer the question according to your beliefs (let us not make it about pleasing your readers and fan )
thank u bro
one thing only i just don’t believe that israel has no choice .what about the phosphorus they are using
Salma - you mean white smoke? What’s a smokescreen got to do with Israel having or not having a choice?
what about the phosphorus they are using
Pardon me, but since when are smoke screen shells an issue? White phosphorous *can* be used as the active agent in incendiary munitions, but it also remains the most effective substance for smoke screens to date.
You know, the kind of smoke screens that mask troop movement. The kind of smoke screens used by pretty much any conventional military on the planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_screen#Phosphorus
“what is the difference between what israel is doing to right now , and what suicide bombers do all the time . ( i see no difference at all )”
Apart from suicide being a sin (those people go to hell), I don’t understand why you don’t see a difference between attacking school children and attacking terrorists.
Another difference is, as you point out, the “now” and “all the time”.
“Maybe if Europeans start coming home in body bags, they’ll start to get it”
They’ll blame Israel for failing to protect the peace troops.
If the suicide bombers watched Israel killing people for two years and THEN fought back, there wouldn’t be a war.
That’s another difference.
Yet another difference is that many people world-wide are scared of Arab- or Muslim-looking people because they are possible terrorists (or so people think). Jews, for all the evils they are accused of, are rarely thought to be dangerous by people sitting next to them on a plane.
Gaza is too small for a buffer zone. This is simply technically impossible.
The war in Lebanon has achieved its objective as plain obvious from the fact that there were no solidarity launches from the north. The quiet in the north owes it all to the last war and not to the UN presence and buffer zone, never mind that this buffer exists only on paper.
In fact the current war in Gaza has probably already achieved its goal. Of course Hamas will continue talking and will try to be the one who shoots the last rocket, but once a ceasefire is put in place, this is going to be a long one. In this sense no plan is needed, since it will all be over in a matter of days or a couple of weeks.
Finally, economic prosperity in Gaza will have on Hamas the same effect as the economic recovery in Germany under the Nazis had on the Nazi regime. This is a hardline movement eager on brainwashing the population and in particular the young generation. Hamas will credit itself with any economic and social achievements regardless if those have anything to do with Hamas administration of the strip or not.
for the people answered my questions thanks but i’m not intrested in your answer.
i just want to hear drima’s
for the people answered my questions thanks but i’m not intrested in your answer.
i just want to hear drima’s
Fair enough.
Guys, thanks for all your comments. You sure are a tough crowd. Lots of legitimate critiques and suggestions, but no alternatives provided or any hole-patching in some cases.
Abu Sa’ar, okay, I hear you. So the IDF weakens Hamas badly, Fatah moves in to do the rest of the dirty work, and then it’s the new boss in town (after lots of blood gets spilled of course).
Cool. Realities of war and shit. But then what? Fatah rearms, and then what?
We’re back to doing the same dance again.
SALMA,
hi, you asked…
“what is the diffrence between what israel is doing to right now , and what suicide bomers do all the time . ( i see no diffrence at all )”
There *is* a difference. Let me elaborate with examples.
When a suicide bomber blows himself up at an Israeli military checkpoint and targets military targets but nearby innocent civilians die in the process, the only difference between what the Israeli military is doing and that, is the act of suicide on the bomber’s part.
When a suicide bomber blows himself up on a bus or in a restaurant full of Israeli civilians, there is a whole big difference since innocents are targeted with the full intent of killing them specifically.
Seems to me that you believe Israel is killing innocent civilians on purpose and targeting them specifically. If that’s the case, then you’re absolutely right that there is no difference between what Israel does and suicide bombers do, but I don’t believe that. It’s not the case.
Hamas fires its missiles from within civilian areas. It’s a very smart, but dirty, dirty tactic, because when Israel conducts a bombing campaign, Palestinian civilian causalities and injuries are inevitable.
Hamas basically cowardly hides behind civilian shields which Israeli bombs end up destroying too.
Collateral damage (caused by any side) is an unfortunate part of war. You can never have 0% civilian casualties.
I’ve known many Palestinians throughout my life. Most just wanna get on with their lives and have no real issues with Israelis at an individual level. However, a few of them were heavily involved with Hamas. The conversations I had with those ones were a fascinating window into their minds.
To them, the death of innocent civilians is tragic but ultimately an okay price to pay just to keep the “jihad on Israeli waging.” Why? Simple. Civilian causalities dying thanks to Israeli bombs are martyrs, and martyrs go to heaven straight away, even skipping Judgment Day (which is pretty much true according to traditionalist Islam).
Speaking of Islam, from an Islamic perspective, this can all get muddy, thanks to the never ending mostly mumbo jumbo debates about the right interpretation.
But from my own Islamic perspective and understanding, suicide is a sin, and innocents cannot be targeted.
Not just that, but even “the eye for an eye” principle which right-wing religious loonies subscribe to is weak and utter nonsense. If it were true, then if “they” rape “our” women, it would be okay for me to kidnap one of “their” women and rape her. There won’t be any limit or restraints.
Last but not least, poisonous “scholars” like al-Qaradawi who approve of suicide bombings and encourage them are not true religious scholars to begin with like most people are fooled into believing. They’re ultimately dangerous authoritarian politicians using the persuasive power of religious dogma in politics to control the masses.
Qaradawi is the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. He believes in theocracy, limits on the rights of women and non-Muslims, and ultimately the power to control peoples’ lives according to what he sees as “God’s” orders. He’s anti-human rights, and delusional.
And then of course, as you may already know, Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, who by the way were an utter disaster to Sudan and every single Muslim country they’ve mushroomed in. So, is it really any surprise that al-Qaradawi blesses Hamas and suicide bombings?
I don’t think so.
Long rant, I know. But, I think it answers your question pretty well, and I hope I’ve convinced you.
Israel doesn’t target innocent civilians with the intent of killing them specifically as suicide bombers who blow themselves up in restaurants do. However, Israel does surely kill lots of innocent civilians in the process of pursuing Hamas, something which pisses me off.
But hey, who said reality was pretty anyway? Say hello to war!
Boohoo, I’m gonna go grab some ice cream now, BUT before that dear SALMA. I’m gonna ask you a question that I would appreciate if you will answer.
Clearly you’re angry over what’s happening. I am too. But please, and be honest with yourself, do you ever get *as* angry when you read news about Muslim Darfurians dying in the thousands at the hands of fellow Muslims? Saddam’s crimes? The torture that goes on in the dark prisons of all Arab dictatorships? Hamas killing its own people and oppressing women? The ruthlessness of Somali Islamists?
Or do you get way angrier when you see images of Palestinians dying due to Jewish bombs?
I gave you my honest answer. I now await yours.
Cheers.
Drima…
An excellent answer…
Also…if Salama really wants the truth…he/she should consider one more thing…
The terrorist in the bus or eatery wants as many civilian causalities as possible. That is why it is call terror…
Arabs typically complain about how much incredible power Israel has…and actually, that is true. However…if the two are equal..why, after 11 days, have there been only about 100 or so civilian deaths. All that power, crowded Gaza, Israel’s objective is to kill innocents and only 100 civilian deaths? Then would it not follow that Israel either is not trying to kill civilians or…they have the worse aim of any army in the history of the universe. Why don’t folks on the other side recognize that?
Oh…becaue they don’t want to…
Even 600 total deaths after all that bombing…hundreds if not into the thousands of bombs…damn…one death per bomb? Might it just be that Israel is focusing on stuff like tunnels and arms caches? Naw can’t be…must be very weak bombs and very bad aim. That is the only rationale explaination.
And again, if Hamas had one or two nice fat juicey bombs…would they point them at troops…or at downtown Tel Aviv during rush hour.
Bet we all know the answer to that one
“And again, if Hamas had one or two nice fat juicey bombs…would they point them at troops…or at downtown Tel Aviv during rush hour.”
Two gedankenexperiments…
1. If the IDF were currently firing at a group of terrorists and innocent children and the group divides into two, one group of terrorists and one group of children, and walked into two different directions, which group would the Israeli fire follow?
2. If there was an invisible force field on the border between Gaza and Israel that would make any attempt to fire rockets or mortar shells or fly war aircraft over the border impossible, and both Hamas and Israel would be unable to hurt the other side, which side would advocate keeping the force field on?
“The torture that goes on in the dark prisons of all Arab dictatorships?”
The sentence I have heard repeated most often in Iraqi Kurdistan was the following.
“Syria is the worst.”
I will never forget it.
I have become friends with an Asyrian guy from Iraq who was granted refugee asylum in the USA. We had some humos together (very bad, Assyrian humos I might add)…
One of his main questions to me was “why does Israel take it so easy on the Arabs?” He asked me that several times.
So…again…for Salma…the relativism trap…two people being killed do not have to be the same thing…not at all.
Drima…
Help me here:
Gaza conflict spreads to Europe with Jews attacked
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:50 AM EST
The Associated Press
By JOHN LEICESTER
PARIS (AP) — Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe’s towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain.
Now…to me…a conflict involves two sides fighting each other…how is this a conflict? Looks more like freelance terrorism, one-sided, to me.
Drima - “Fatah rearms, and then what?”
Eventually they’ll attack again. Probably as soon as Abbas is overthrown. That is inevitable like the wind. But Abbas will probably hold to power without attacking Israel for a while longer. I would guess a few years.
That’s the best outcome we can hope for - a few years of quiet before they attack again.
And then we’ll cull the terrorists again and destroy their infrastructure.
This will continue until one day they’ll realize hatred is not healthy and that life and prosperity are better than death and poverty.
C’est la vie.
I expect this process of enlightenment to be quickened by the growing irrelevancy of oil, by the way. Saudi money has funded many a Palestinian terrorist.
Howie - they should return home, these Jews, rather than continue surviving by the historically scant mercy of their host nations. That’s why we rebuilt the home and that’s why we’re defending it now once again.
Abu-Sa’ar..
Speaking of home…I might be coming to your neighborhood soon…complicated situation…but would like to take you out…Something nice…you know Falefel Arba T’amim or Sami Burechas
Otoh ha davar im R.K.
Does Sami even exist anymore?
Yesh derech leemtzor kesher prati?
P.S.
ha emet…ani chaver chamas veh zeh stam terutz limtzo makom l’haftiah et ha’oyev k’ahsher ho lo metzapeh clum…chotz m’ahser mana shel falafel.
Mooohhahahahahaha
Abu
litzor kesher..not leemtzor…
My brain has long ago lost its edge
DRIMA
i do not have a blog so basicly u do not any thing about my opinions , i never (will never ) support any crime (first of all suicide bomers ), sadam is evil guy just like hitlor, darfur believe it or not i did some work for them personaly .( i am not evil to be silent about any huminitaian crime )
for the last days i been praying for two things first no harm for family or loved one . the second thing believe or not no attacking on any westren intrest ( any building, suicide bombers ….), be
my own brother been totrure in these prison , and he has been suffering and going through hell because of that . and i have my best friend (as kids ) been torture in demascus so do not tell i am not looking around me . man i have heard rape stories in africa that made me sleepless for days ( i am not kidding ) .
man , i jusy comment on palestinean issues because i witness the first intifada it was ugly , and loyal to my country the most.( i do not have any contact with my family i am not sure if they still alive, i can not get hold of them )
peace
Howie,
romankalik AT gmail DOT com
I tend to reply to emails, though Raccoon… well… how shall I put this… doesn’t. Ever. Andrew can help you out with his phone number, though.
Salma,
Sorry for jumping to conclusions about you. I hope your family are safe.
Howie,
Tell us when you go to Israel (gmail: ajbrehm). I might be able to meet you too. I have Raccoon’s phone number. Could call him and force him to contact you.
Roman,
I think I still owe you 50 sheqels or something like that.
You know, with all the mounting international outcry and pressure and demonstrations for Israel to stop its attacks etc etc, is anybody demonstrating against Hamas and pressuring them to stop firing rockets into Israel?
Sorry for asking what’s probably a really dumb question with an obvious answer, but the glaring omission, at least in the papers, is starting to get to me. You’d think people would’ve twigged by now that Hamas and other terrorist organisations are really to blame for what’s happening in Gaza now. Are Muslims worldwide really that short-sighted? Honestly??
I feel like organising me an anti-Hamas protest now.
Salma, thanks for your honest reply. I wish you all the best and apologies if you got the impression that I was attacking because I wasn’t.
Sheema, call me for that protest if you ever do manage to organize it! Meanwhile, enjoy all the calls for boycotting American and Jewish products.
LOL.
Should include Boeings, Intel processors, Motorola handphones, but doesn’t apparently.
“Are Muslims worldwide really that short-sighted? Honestly??”
According to Sandmonkey there was a 30,000 people demonstration against Hamas in Egypt over the murder by Hamas of an Egyptian border guard.
“I feel like organising me an anti-Hamas protest now”
Please don’t. It’s too dangerous. If you must protest, protest Israel. It’s safer.
The millions of “death to the Jews” protesters around the world feel like they are standing up against tyranny. But make public your identity as a Jew or supporter of Israel and you find out what tyranny and suppression of free speech really is.
Buffer Zone? why? It does not solve the problem,it simply keep people from firing at each other and kiliing each other. In this sense a buffer zone is a good idea.
To solve the issue let the beligirents have at it as in all wars and whoever wins get it all set the conditions. This will save money by keeping the UN a little afloat for the other many buffer zone out there in the world. One does not need another buffer zone in Gaza.
I think I still owe you 50 sheqels or something like that.
Could be… I honestly don’t remember.
Of course they did. It doesn’t even amount to four lines of code. But let us live in the blissful illusion of it being otherwise, eh?
Drima
Good to know Sudan has a consience about suffering Muslims
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424894423&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
There’s one other border that is extremely important - the Gaza-Egypt border Hamas is using to smuggle weapon into Gaza, mostly from Iran, including longer-range missiles they’ve currently started firing into Israel that can hit deeper into Israeli territory. They were in the process of acquiring even longer-range missiles that could hit Tel Aviv and other towns in the center of Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza it left it to Egypt to take care of their border, but obviously the Egyptians can’t. Hamas has dug an incredible complex of underground tunnels under Gaza for the purpose of smuggling weapons. They also dug tunnels that get inside Israel to send in terrorists and kidnap Israeli soldiers and civilians.
This is not a war about Jerusalem. For Hamas this is a holy war until they wipe out Israel and turn the entire land into an Islamic state. That’s what they say in their covenant and they repeat it endlessly. They also preach on their TV and newspaper that killing and even exterminating the Jews is a religious duty. And they seem to think there’s some global Jewish-Christian conspiracy against Islam and talk about Islamic conquest of the world. Maybe some of the Arabic speaking people here can tell me if the translation from Arabic is accurate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsvqcp4aWF8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
Hamas TV celebrates a missile attack in Israel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe5L5of2rPM
Hamas has intensified its suicide bombing attacks campaign against Israel, killing hundreds of civilians, at the first stages of the Oslo peace (?) process as the new circumstances allowed them more freedom to operate. Their purpose was to put an end to it and prevent any possibility of compromise. Fatah couldn’t or wouldn’t control them back then. Israelis felt the more concessions they make the more they get killed in the streets of their own towns and voted for a more hardline policy. The Palestinians felt suffocated and both parties lost faith in each other’s intentions.
With this kind of Hamas attitude and declared purposes, and Iranian and Syrian support, there’s a need to prevent Hamas from smuggling weapons into Gaza. Tragically, they use civilians, civilian infrastructure and children for military purposes and human shields, like you said. They think the people and children killed are shahids and go straight to heaven. Some of them have sacrificed their own children believing that. They truly believe that. Hamas fighters and suicide bombers also disguise themselves as civilians and they have also used women and children and workers and people pretending to be sick and ambulances to get through borders and checkpoints to blow up Israelis.
What’s the solution? I don’t know. On one hand, if you respond to their attacks by trying to place harsher limitations on movement and hardening checkpoints policy and by military force you’re bound to hurt innocent Palestinian civilians. It also radicalizes the people and increases support for Hamas and other radical Islamic movements. On the other hand, if you do nothing they target innocent civilians in Israel and acquire more and more military capability to hit Israel and Israelis.
International peacekeepers have never been helpful - they don’t have that much invested interest as to risk their lives nor the kind of expertise and experience the Israelis have acquired in dealing with this kind of warfare. And anyway Hamas has declined the idea of international forces. There are discussions about Turkish forces (as the Turks aren’t “infidels” and have special sympathy for Hamas), but even if Hamas agrees, are the Turks able to protect Israelis?
Good grief, I actually just went through a silly and pointless Facebook argument with my very own (ignorant, prejudiced and misinformed) cousin about the Gaza situation, and he inevitably dredged up the same old tired “Israelis started it first so they deserve everything they get, plus they were never supposed to be there in the first place so they should be kicked out” argument.
I would love to sic Andrew Brehm on him. That’s a compliment to you, Andrew.
Yahood,
“There are discussions about Turkish forces (as the Turks aren’t “infidels” and have special sympathy for Hamas), but even if Hamas agrees, are the Turks able to protect Israelis?”
Do you have linkies? Sounds like an awesome suggestion. I think Turkey can play a significant role given is position.
Sheema,
LOL, yeah, I saw the debate on Facebook. Left a massage there just now. Enjoy! And hey, let’s catch up soon and meet up for some roti canai and shisha.
“I would love to sic Andrew Brehm on him. That’s a compliment to you, Andrew.”
Ta.
Turkish troops would not be a good idea.
And it’s not about the Turkish troops. I have complete confidence in the Turkish military and their willingness to protect Jews.
The problem is that when Hamas starts firing rockets again, the Turks would have to act and acting means killing terrorists and killing terrorists means killing their human shields.
At that point the Turkish military would either do that or be restrained by a pro-Hamas Turkish government.
If the first, we have achieved nothing that the IDF could not achieve themselves without dragging the Turks into the mess.
If the second, we have achieved even less.
The only solution is for the Arabs in Gaza to realise that they have to decide between war and peace and that they won’t win a war.
We do not need Turkish soldiers for them to make that decision. It’s up to them and solely up to them.
Drima, here’s a link:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231774441397&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
But there have been many conflicting rumors about what’s going on behind the scenes, some more optimistic, some very despairing. Hamas presented a very tough uncompromising position all along in spite of the destruction and even the damage to Hamas itself (which they seem to care about far more than Palestinian suffering), but all in all it seems we’re drawing closer to some kind of ceasefire, maybe a few days more, I hope less than that.
Drima, the Sudanese Zionist
How are you ol’pal it’s been a long time since I checked your blog but looks like it’s business as usual and the crowd hasn’t changed at all… hope you have a great year filled with happiness and success…
I tried to patch up your piece but then realized that I would need to re-write everything but before I do that what is your clear stance on the current and ongoing genocide in Gaza?
1000+ Dead
4500+ Injured
UN Schools Bombed
Journalist Bombed
International Media Access Blackout by Israel
Total collapse of all UN services
Total destruction of infrastructure
Medical Services targeted
Ambulance - Rescue workers targeted
Hospitals Bombed
Banned Weapons used
Even the local cemetery was bombed
yet the utter and shameful bias continues….
and Drima the Sudanese Zionist, I haven’t even started venting yet… I just want to know your clear stance on this genocide… as I already know your clear stance on the Palestinian resistance, refugee issue and status of Jerusalem.
Amru,
After a lot of thinking and consideration I have come to the conclusion that it was NOT a good idea for “Palestinians” to vote for Hamas and to go to war with Israel.
Something to think about for you guys…
The list you quote, partly made up as it is, shows very clearly that Hamas’ optimism and calls for war were premature, if at all wise.
I suggest a change of strategy: leave the Jews alone.
If you want to fight someone, fight the Sudanese government; if you are still interested in genocide if the victims are hundreds of thousands instead of a few hundred and not Arabs.
Have a nice day and please learn the lesson. Attacking Israel is suicide.
The anti-Semites will never see Israel as the good guys.
But MAYBE they will realise that Israel are the fecking dangerous guys!
I don’t really care whether they leave Israel alone because they think Jews have a right to exist or whether they think that Israel is an evil and violent regime that completely overreacts when attacked.
Either will do. Peace is more important than being right.
Hello Andrew, the reply above was directed at Drima
My fighting of the Sudanese government is not the subject of this article, it’s the current genocide in Gaza, my stance on Darfur is clear and so is that on the criminal, dictator and thus Omer Al-Bashir… but once again the topic here is Israeli genocide…
…and my friend I do not need to atack Israel, Israel is doing a pretty good job at that herself
And Drew… I have no problem with the existence of Jews nor am I anti-Semitic (stop playing this broken record) but I do have a serious issue with Israel and how it came to existence and its non-stop oppression of the natives (Palestinians)… too bad for you; world opinion is calling your bluff
FREEDOM FOR PALESTIAN NOW!
“Hello Andrew, the reply above was directed at Drima”
I know, but I think you brought up an important point.
There would be peace if the “Palestinians” stopped attacking Israel.
And they would have their stupid state if they simply founded it.
And, Amru, just a quick note: the word “Palestinian” derives from the Hebrew for “invader”. The pagans named Israel after Greek invaders 2000 years ago. I’m not sure why the Arab “natives” call themselves “invaders”, but perhaps we can live with it.
Freedom for Invaderland now!
And it’s good that YOU don’t have a problem with the existence of Jews, but Hamas and the PLO do. And that’s the problem. I am sure your attitude towards Jews is not the problem. But the “Palestinians’” attitude towards Jews certainly prevents them from founding their stupid state.
I tried to patch up your piece but then realized that I would need to re-write everything but before I do that what is your clear stance on the current and ongoing genocide in Gaza?
1000+ Dead
4500+ Injured
UN Schools Bombed
Journalist Bombed
International Media Access Blackout by Israel
Total collapse of all UN services
Total destruction of infrastructure
Medical Services targeted
Ambulance - Rescue workers targeted
Hospitals Bombed
Banned Weapons used
Even the local cemetery was bombed
So basically, you’ve described the consequences of the average war, though you’ve also pointedly didn’t mention how Hamas makes use of pretty much anything at hand to get an upper hand in the war - from stockpiling weapons under civilian houses and in mosques to using Shifa Hospital’s basement as their regional Gaza HQ.
And combining the civilian and combatant casualty rate and pretending that they’re all civilians… amusing, I admit, but not very factual, is it?
So let’s see… a genocide is where the attacking party or parties make use of a wide range of policies with the end goal of utterly destroying a national or ethnic group - mass murder, basically. In a war, the party or parties attempt to achieve specific military objectives. In a humane war, the party or parties also attempt to minimize civilian casualties while the achieve these goals.
So let’s compare Israel’s armed forces to… say… Hamas.
The Israeli air-force routinely drops leaflets warning of an impeding major attack, to give the civilian populace time to clear out of harm’s way. The Israeli army calls people on the phone to warn them of impeding major attacks.
In contrast, Hamas focused its armed “resistance” on attacking cities and towns, attempting to maximize civilian casualties via rocket attacks and suicide bombers. Thousands of rockets over the past few years, fired before, during, and after “ceasefire” agreements with Israel, and even during the hours of the day when Israel holds fire to allow humanitarian aid to enter.
So far, the only attempted genocide had been by Palestinian armed forces - and fortunately, they don’t have the means to do so.
Israel *has* the means for genocide. Israel has the means to eradicate Gaza within a couple of days. Israel could have pounded Israel with maximum-capacity bombs, artillery, and from the sea. It could have carpet-bombed Gaza and turned every residential house into rubble, and then it could have sent the ground troops in to roll over the survivors. Israel has the military means to do that countries far bigger than little old Gaza.
But Israel didn’t do that, Amru, now did it? But you prefer hyperbole and screaming to facts. To you, Israel is Evil Incarnate - and that’s that.
Amru, my good friend, you’ve been missed around here.
Hope you had a good Eid and that you’ll be bless with a great New Year.
Okay, let’s get down to business.
I chuckled at your use of the word “genocide” but Roman has done a fine job at laying down the counterargument to your questions before I could even get to it.
You can also read my previous reply to Salma.
I’m opposed to the current war, but the big difference between you and me is that you refuse to hold Hamas responsible for its crimes and sickening role in all of this, while I have no problem doing so.
I can write an entire book detailing my opposition to various Israeli policies and actions, but it looks like the whole Muslim world is already busy doing that, with most books being sensational and hyperbolic in nature.
No Amru, I have no interest in playing conformist and spending my time issuing condemnations against Israel and Israel alone.
I’ll leave that to you.
Opposition towards Israel’s actions shouldn’t lead us into becoming cheerleaders for Hamas or prevent us from holding Hamas responsible for its sickening crimes.
But apparently for you Amru, it’s all just Israel, Israel, and more Israel. Nothing about Hamas.
Not only that, but sadly in your eyes, any Muslim attempting to be critical of Hamas and isn’t busy condemning Israel alone, should be labeled “Zionist” aka “traitor.”
Cute.
Google “ad hominem.” It’s a weak tactic.
“I already know your clear stance on the Palestinian resistance”
Resistance? Oh dear. Sure, teaching little kids that blowing up themselves and killing some infidels in the process will guarantee them a place in heaven with lots of hot virgins, is indeed resistance.
Right. Resistance.
Here’s my friendly advice. Less passion, nationalism, and political fervor. More pragmatism and cold dispassionate analysis, please.
Salam,
Drima - The Sudanese “Zionist.”
instead of preaching and screaming “resistance” lets start talking about ‘COEXISTENCE”.
“instead of preaching and screaming “resistance” lets start talking about ‘COEXISTENCE”.”
Amen.
Israel is ready for it, and Israel has the power to survive the “resistance” longer than the Palestinians. The only “winners” of the resistance will be those supporting the “resistance” from the outside, those who have vowed to fight Israel to the last Palestinian.
Israel will kill every last member of the “resistance”, everyone supporting the “resistance”, and every human shield used by the “resistance”; before the “resistance” will “win”.
It’s worth it to Hamas and their Iranian masters. But what’s in it for Palestinians?
1200 people have just died, not because of Israel but because Iran thought that Arabs lives are worth nothing and can be used in a war against the Jews.
Iran will fight this to the last Palestinian, to the last Egyptian, to the last Arab.
Drima,
Reading through your blog from time to time…it just seems to me that the same argument you are using against Amru could be used against you at times.
‘But apparently for you Amru, it’s all just Israel, Israel, and more Israel. Nothing about Hamas.’
We could say to you, ‘but apparently for you Drima, it’s all just Arabs, Muslims, Hamas and more Hamas. Nothing about Israel.’
You spend more time criticizing Arabs’ criticisms of Israel than you do of Israel’s action. Sure you might have a book’s worth of opinion against Israel, but we simply do not see enough of it.
And this whole argument that the blood of Palestinian innocent casualties lays on Hamas’ hands and only Hamas’ hands…that is just silly. Israel’s OVER-reaction is WRONG. I’m sorry, but we can ‘debate’ for light years, be as pragmatic as you wish, let go of our ‘passion’ and ‘nationalism’, you will NOT convince me otherwise. There is absolutely no reason why we should divert attention away from that fact. What is their intention? Does it stem from genocidal tendencies? Don’t know. All I know is that my fellow innocent muslims are being murdered with Israeli weaponry. Period.
Andrew Brehm and Roman Kalik, chances are you will jump to Drima’s defence. I honestly see no point in intellectual ping-pong with you. Our viewpoints and interests are different, and will likely remain so.
word d’jour: disproportionate, also OVER - reaction……..
Nothing will change until ALL ARAB COUNTRIES stop inciting and calling non Muslims “sons of pigs and monkeys” during their Friday prayers, etc.,etc
That Hamas has been used and abused by Iran is one of the facts conveninetly ignored. And the loosers are the Palestinian people……Abused by Arafat, by Suha, by Qurei, by Abbas who had abandon his villa in Gaza, by Fatah, by Hamas.
Money used to smugle weapons instead of building infrastructure………..and so on
So, I will repeat my self :
“instead of preaching and screaming “resistance” lets start talking about ‘COEXISTENCE
“Our viewpoints and interests are different, and will likely remain so.”
That is probably true.
But whether those with different interests than ours see our point of view and agree with us or just plain realise that we overreact doesn’t matter. The first would be better, but the second is the second-best choice for us.
And that’s it. That’s what you have to deal with.
Whether it is good will or fear, one of the two will stop people from attacking Israel.
The irony is that Drima’s interests are the same as ours. He wants to live in peace with us and we with him.
Anybody else want to join?
Drima, I like the ideas that you propose. These are realistic and have merit. With peace in the region, much could be accomplished.
I honestly see no point in intellectual ping-pong with you. Our viewpoints and interests are different, and will likely remain so.
As you wish.
Salam AOS, thanks for responding with a reply that doesn’t contain the usual personal attacks. I appreciate and respect that.
You said:
“We could say to you, ‘but apparently for you Drima, it’s all just Arabs, Muslims, Hamas and more Hamas. Nothing about Israel.’”
I disagree. I do criticize Israel. Even in the “about me” section I also voice my opposition.
“You spend more time criticizing Arabs’ criticisms of Israel than you do of Israel’s action. Sure you might have a book’s worth of opinion against Israel, but we simply do not see enough of it.”
You’re right, and you certainly have a fair point there. I do this by design. It’s not accidental. The majority of Arab and Muslim bloggers are busy condemning Israel, including many who have a lot of legitimate points. If I do the same, Hamas will be ignored, and that’s a mistake. The focus is always on Israel and our anger - in a lot of ways legitimate - is usually directed at it alone. Just look at the Arab media. Hardly anything about Hamas or its use of civilian shields gets mentioned.
My imbalance in blogging is a response to what I see as an imbalance in the mainstream Arab media and the Muslim and Arab blogospheres.
“And this whole argument that the blood of Palestinian innocent casualties lays on Hamas’ hands and only Hamas’ hands…that is just silly.”
Nowhere have I ever said or implied that AOS. Nowhere. You’re reading things into this post, that aren’t even there.
That’s a wrongful accusation on your part. Please read this post again and the ones before it.
Accidental or not, Israeli shells are killing innocent Palestinians - too many of them being children. That’s the painful reality. So there is lots of blood on Israel’s hands without a doubt. Period. That’s a fact, and nowhere have I denied it or said otherwise.
In case it’s still not clear, I’m against the Israeli invasion, and I don’t believe it will achieve anything fruitful except stop the rockets for a while. Then of course you have the Israeli politicians behind it who stand to do well with voters.
Main point is, I don’t like what’s happening. However, I try and remain as dispassionate as I can, otherwise this entire blog will get filled with emotional rants and curse words everywhere. I’m largely over those days. You’ll find them in the early sections of my archive.
Moreover, Hamas must not be let off the hook. Their use of civilian shields is sickening and contributes to the deaths of innocents that we see on TV. Let’s hold them responsible too.
That’s really it.
I hope this comment clarifies things. Hope all is well on your side.
Salam.
Think of the innocent people
in Darfur
in Tibet
in Israel
in Palestine
who kill them?
think of your comfortable living?
you live in Heaven my good people
you do enjoy your freedom
flurish with peace
while….
genocide
war crimes
are taking place in front of our eyes
and in the name of freedom and progress
think of the innocent ones
people
people
time will tell
you became heartless
think of yourself
“and I don’t believe it will achieve anything fruitful except stop the rockets for a while.”
And that is exactly what Israel wants. Israelis near the border want to live outside the bunkers for a few weeks.
It’s a pity this is so expensive. It doesn’t have to be.
Drima (The Sudanese Zionist), I apologize for the late reply as I have just returned back from a month long visit to Sudan, which I’ve turned into a yearly thing to keep myself on par with the reality on the ground… maybe it’s something you should consider as well Mr. ‘Sudanese’ Thinker
Thank you for the reply and the topic which you solely dedicated to my reply in an attempt to paint yourself as being personally targeted, attacked and labeled. Which I’m surprised that you took as a fallacy, you must have forgot our previous debate in which you staunchly defended Zionism as a “Good” Nationalist movement and invited me to read more about it, in this case you should not be offended nor should this be viewed as a fallacy, it’s simply a fact my friend. I harbor no ill feelings towards you or else I would not visit your blog
I find it funny how you took my simple question, ran away with it and made it into how I defend Hamas… can you please point out where I said anything in support of Hamas? As a matter of fact I didn’t even mention Hamas anywhere… you should first ask me about Hamas before putting words into my mouth as if you know what it is I think… And you want me to look up fallacies and what a fallacy is? LOL
Personally I don’t subscribe to Hamas’s doctrine and from early debates I predicted that the ‘democratic’ election of Hamas will bring more problems to the Palestinians than solutions to their current problems. Here you would run and yell “Hamas are terrorists” that’s why the world is against them, while I may not agree with their methodology in resistance the fact is they are fighting a legitimate fight against an occupying entity that has built a nation on top of the refugee’s lands and has oppressed the Palestinians from day 1. Bear in mind that this entity exists in a world where the balance of power lies solely in the hands of the United States of America which provides blind support and cover for this entity.
You must first ask yourself why Palestinians brought Hamas to power, who/what is Hamas, and analyze what happened to Yassir Arfat who made Israel’s right to exist on Palestinian land legitimate by accepting it for nothing in return but to be jailed in his own compound for the rest of his life while Palestinian land shrinks, an apartheid wall is being built to steal more land and all Palestinians being placed in a big jail with Israel being the only police force. Yet again Israel wants the same from Hamas, to accept its right to exist on Palestinian land without anything in return.
Palestinians have every right to resist Israel’s occupation of their land, denial of their rights as refugees and oppression. What you choose to debate is your prerogative, being a victim to excessive brainwashing and trying to imply that you are making sure the Arab world does not forget about ‘criminal’ Hamas while defending Israel by blaming Hamas for the results war is utter bias.
Please keep in mind when Hamas was formed (in the late 80’s, an Islamist organization opposed to the leftist PLO) and how long Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians, maybe that will help you understand why many of us put more blame on Israel because it is without any doubt the root cause of the Middle East conflict.
I no longer have interest in your ‘breakdown’ of resistance (as I have no interest for the Government of Sudan’s breakdown of resistance) because someone who does not accept the right of return of REFUGEES to their land; cannot comprehend resistance, someone who can sit back and watch defenseless people being butchered by an advanced military machine and blames the victims; cannot comprehend resistance. What happened in Gaza is clear genocide, from dropping cluster bombs on civilian populated areas to the use of banned weapons against civilian populations, refusal of the right of return of the survivors, in addition to the bombardment of the UN mission and schools housing refugee’s (who fled fled from refugee camps).
You say less passion eh? I say climb out of your hole and realize why most of your readers and those who are your cheerleaders are Zionist and why everyone else is asking you to check yourself.
South Africa during the Apartheid regime was considered as a member of what Bush Sr. termed “The Free World” and the ANC and Nelson Mandela were designated as terrorist… it’s about time that you realize that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter… be fair to yourself and the countless Palestinians who have been butchered, forced into exile (to never see their homes again) and those who have remained to live as prisoners .
Just because I disagree with you does not mean I view you as a ‘traitor’. Keep pursuing knowledge, build your own opinion free from influence (influence can be many things
) and don’t be afraid to voice your opinion even if you do feel personally attacked (even though it is not my intention) 
Salam
and analyze what happened to Yassir Arfat who made Israel’s right to exist on Palestinian land legitimate by accepting it for nothing in return
I am still waiting for the original excuse that legitimises an Arab state’s right to exist on Jewish land.
In fact I am wondering generally about the legitimacy of all Arab states’ right to exist on Assyrian, Amazigh, Fur, Dinka, Massalith, Kurdish, and Egyptian lands.
it’s about time that you realize that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter
I think it is time that YOU realise that “terrorism” is a war crime, not a political designation.
Freedom fighters don’t have to be terrorists and terrorists are not automatically freedom fighters.
Salam ya Amru, thanks for the long reply. I think we may finally be getting at something here after your elaboration.
There are a few misunderstandings that need to be corrected. Firstly…
“you staunchly defended Zionism as a “Good” Nationalist movement and invited me to read more about it,”
Staunchly defended Zionism? Really? Erm, ok. Would love to see you quote anything that says that. You must have probably misinterpreted what I wrote.
Growing up I was taught that it’s an evil and racist ideology seeking. Now, I know that isn’t true, at least not completely.
My main point was that Zionism means different things to different people. If one is merely a Zionist because one is born in Israel and is patriotic, then Zionism in this case can be defined as mere nationalism. No biggie here.
However, when you have Zionists who think they have some “holy right” to steal land, because “God gave it” to them, then Zionism in this case is in my book evil and racist.
So, Amru, I hope that clarifies my position and clears up any misconceptions.
Frankly, going though your reply, you seem to have the impression that I’m blind to the suffering of the Palestinians and all the wrong that Israel has committed throughout the last few decades.
You couldn’t be more wrong.
Maybe, like AOS said, I don’t communicate it enough, and I think he most probably has a good point, so I take responsibility for that inaccurate impression that I may have created.
Here’s the thing though. No doubt, history is important, but I don’t delve into it because it takes us back to the whole “you started it, no you started it before we did” endless, heated and passionate discussions, which are useless.
I prefer focusing on the *now* Amru. If we go back and look at the history of the conflict, I think we’ll have more agreements than disagreements.
It’s in the *now* that our views diverge significantly.
Yes, Israel is building its wall, making land grabs with it, inflicts collective punishment and continues expanding its settlements. All that receives a lot of coverage, which is a good thing. But Hamas needs to be held responsible for its faults too, a narrative which is seriously missing in Muslim and especially Arab media.
Even after the ceasefire took effect, Hamas still continued firing rockets. How the Arab media can standby and label such suicidal maniacs heroic is beyond me. Let’s criticize Israel for all its faults but let’s not forget Hamas either.
A good start would perhaps be Hamas updating its loony charter into something more decent, and Israel seizing settlements expansion.
It takes two hands to clap.
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