I’m guessing he was recently watching Madagascar 2 or something.
“I like to move it, move it!”
Fast move, alright. Phew! That was pretty close huh? Hehe, sorry, can’t help it. 
Excellent Reflexes President Bush!
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{ 29 comments… read them below or add one }
As bad has Bush 2 administration is- I am going to miss the comedy… Unbelievable!
I heard the NY Yankees team is going to try to get that Iraqi reporter for season 2009..
http://www.borowitzreport.com/article.aspx?ID=6969
And there are two ways to report this…
One journalist insulted George Bush, he has supporters in the country. The other journalists caught him, handed him over to security, and apologised for his behaviour.
How would you report this?
The German media have decided to declare him an Iraqi “national hero”. Obviously, to them, a single journalist among many represents Iraq while all the others don’t. (The only entity that, according to German media, never ever represents Iraq is the elected government of Iraq.)
I am really sick and tired of the propaganda.
Is it too much to ask for media to report what happened rather than add value statements?
(German news sites still haven’t reported that Iraqi Shiites, while opposed to the occupation did in fact support the invasion and wanted to get rid of Saddam.)
According to the Sandmonkey the shoe thrower is a supporter of sectarian Sunni militias who usually fight both the US and Shiites (including Shiite civilians).
What the German media call a “national hero” of Iraq is a supporter of the same thugs who are vehemently opposed by the vast majority of (Shiite) Iraqis (who also oppose the US, but that doesn’t make their other enemy their “hero”).
I wonder if it is surprising that Germany in her arrogance still regards the Arab Sunni supporters of Saddam as the legal representatives of the will of the Iraqi people; after all, that group is of the same demographics as the supporters of Iraq’s alliance with Germany during World War II. Germany isn’t Nazi Germany any more, but I guess it will take a LONG TIME before Germany also stops defending her old allies.
@Andrew,
Hello. Off tangent here. I cannot say anything about this shoe throwing event. I like its link with the Yankee baseball future star…LOL
To the point. Sometimes ago, I just remember you and others commenting profusely on the Middle east politics and religion. It was a time of very animated debates then. I noticed less of them now on Drima site. Who knows? they maybe revived again….
Anyway, I wanted to share with you the historical research findings by Rafat Amari of the Religion research Institute. The research is about the so-called connection of the prophete mohamed with Ishmael (slave son of the patriach Abraham). In all of the debates that have fueled this site in the past about the similarities between jewish and Islamic faiths and other themes, you have made countless claims of genealogy of Mohamed from Ishmael and thus to all muslim arabs.
Well this link by Amari will perhaps change what we have assumed all this time. Please read all the content, and let me know what you think.
Best,
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/ishmael.htm
Ah…I MISSED…
“ah shoet”
heh heh
Hey…maybe they will kidnap a bunch of Israeli’s and hold them in ransom for the new hero of the Arab world…and I know what one of the demands will be
he has to be the opening day pitcher for the New York Yankees…or no deal.
And you know…dude might be good..he was on the mark…
And George was able to move more like REGGIE Bush…not a bad move their George…not bad.
And why did he say “ah have no animosity against the man”…fucker just through a shoe at you…quit being so PC George…jump off the damn podium and at least TRY to kick his ass…
Hey…the dude hates Iran as much as he hates the USA…
I will personally buy him some new shoes…freaking steel-toed contruction boots or football cleats or spiked high heels if he will promise to toss them at Ahmenidinajad…
If he kills the dude…maybe we can get somebody who has an easier name to say and spell?
Bush vs Ahmenidinijad…I mean, journalistically…how is that fair?
@Hamidoush
It’s an interesting subject and an interesting article. But let me correct you right now and tell you that I never said that all Muslim Arabs are related to Yishmael. I believe that the tribe of Quraish descended from Yishmael.
Muslim tradition says that Muhammed descended from Yishmael. I totally believe this because it matches the profile of an Aramaic-speaking trading family (the Quran contains many words in Aramaic likely in common use by families that trade with Syria and descend from Aramaeans). The Hebrew Bible also mentions that Yishmael was sent off into the “wilderness”, which would match the direction of Arabia and Mecca (towards Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria wouldn’t be “into the wilderness”). Muslim traditions pick up the story and claim that Abraham also moved to Mecca and met Yishmael there (before moving back to Canaan).
The author of the article confuses tribal ancestry with family ancestry. The number of generations Muhammed could trace doesn’t matter. Tribes mix with other tribes, accept converts, move around; there is no guarantee that a tribal descendant of X is a biological descendant of X.
The author further states that Jesus could trace his ancestry back to Abraham. All Jews can. But the specific generations given were likely made up by the writers of the gospel. With biological ancestry the record probably lies with the Cohens who can trace back their ancestry to Aaron and have the genetic marker to prove it. That’s about 3500 years of family history traced back to its origin.
I don’t know about Muhammed’s Yemenite ancestry. But the author seems not to know that a Yemenite ancestry does not contradict a Yishmaeli ancestry. That was a very shoddily written article at best.
@Andrew,
I am surprised you slaming the door on the article, and calling shoddy. Dr. Amari is a historian and well known one. You seem to simply put inside his hypothesis based on historical records and written documentations by leading eraly Islamic scholars like Ibn Ishak and El Tabari. What sources do you attend to? Traditions? …
“…The Hebrew Bible also mentions that Yishmael was sent off into the “wilderness”, which would match the direction of Arabia and Mecca (towards Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria wouldn’t be “into the wilderness”)…”
How did you figure out which wilderness? The jews wandered around for 40 years in the “wilderness” and it turns out to be the Sinai I beleive or perhaps Arabia… Who knows? Jesus was said to have been attempted by Satan when he was in the “wilderness”. Jacob wrestled with the angel in the “wilderness”. It looks like there were many wildernesses out there. I think it is simplistic for you to decide on whim what wilderness the early scribes were talking about, particularly when this was added AFTER the fact of a rise of a religious movement.
“..Muslim traditions pick up the story and claim that Abraham also moved to Mecca and met Yishmael there (before moving back to Canaan)…”
Do you trully beleive this as a fact just because people believe it? Amari suggested there is nothing on record that said this is what really happen. Just because muslim traditions (which one may ask which “traditions”) say so, it does not mean it is true either. Muslims also say that it was Ishmael that was to be sacrificed by Abraham and they point to the tradition of lamb sacrifice as evidence… Whow…that’s not what the bible says.
Anyway, it is ok to beleive what you want to beleive, I would rather look for evidence and search historical records which lead to too many contradictions. That’s part of histography and historical research triangulation (the study of different written sources that emerged from the same era). I think it is much better than relying of common sense and “tradition”.
Hamidoush -
It’s nigh impossible to deduce the facts of something from fourth-hand accounts (at best) of something that might have happened +/- 4000 years ago but has no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
It is even more difficult to use the (practically worthless) conclusions from the above to verify suspicions about a man who possibly lived some 1600 years ago… and about whom we know from several fourth-hand (at best) accounts with no hard evidence to back them up.
Seems to me like discussing the machinations of, say, Unseelie ambassadors at Oberon’s court
And hey… don’t you ever feel like everything to be said about the politics and religion of the Missile East has been said? Until the situation changes in a meaningful way, that is
Andrew - come on, man, the fact that we both can trace our genealogy to a common male ancestor some 3500 years ago doesn’t mean he was Aaron. Could have as well been, dunno, Ishkur the Babylonian fisherman. Or a particularly active Pleshti rapist or something.
“Andrew - come on, man, the fact that we both can trace our genealogy to a common male ancestor some 3500 years ago doesn’t mean he was Aaron.”
Using inductive logic it is most likely that a proven common ancestor is the one remembered as such. It would be unlikely that people who BELIEVE they have a common ancestor have one who is NOT the one they believed it was.
The first possibility is that what they remembered is correct (which is, I grant, unlikely), the second possibility is that they have such a common ancestor (which is unlikely) AND happen to be a group that insists that they have such a common ancestor. I don’t know the possibilities for each, but the combination of the second and third seems a lot more unlikely than the first.
“Until the situation changes in a meaningful way, that is”
I think that finding common ground in Islam and Judaism, like a common ancestry of Jews and Muhammed, is among the most likely things to help change the situation to the better.
“I am surprised you slamming the door on the article, and calling shoddy.”
I told you why I think it’s shoddy. He argues that Yemenite ancestry disproves Yishmaeli ancestry. The argument is completely wrong and illogical. I have no idea how he could come up with it unless he used shoddy research and/or had an agenda.
“How did you figure out which wilderness? The jews wandered around for 40 years in the “wilderness” and it turns out to be the Sinai I beleive or perhaps Arabia… Who knows?”
I told you how I figured it out. There are only so many places you can go from Canaan. I doubt the “wilderness” was north (where the Phoenicians lived and already had city states) or towards Syria (also city states).
Egypt at the time ruled Sinai and Yishmael’s mother was Egyptian, hence if he had been sent towards Egypt, I am sure it would have been mentioned. (And since Abraham’s other descendants eventually moved to Egypt, I am sure they would have run into Yishmael’s descendants.)
The remaining direction is towards Arabia, the only probable “wilderness”.
“Could have as well been, dunno, Ishkur the Babylonian fisherman. Or a particularly active Pleshti rapist or something.”
“Do you truly beleive this as a fact just because people believe it?”
No. I accept it as a working hypothesis. There is no reason to doubt Muslim tradition if I have nothing else to go on.
Why not do the “shoe” test…
Apparently if you can throw a shoe with pinpoint accuracy at somebody’s head…then a second…you have to be related to some type of miraculous people.
Case closed.
“Apparently if you can throw a shoe with pinpoint accuracy at somebody’s head…then a second…you have to be related to some type of miraculous people.”
Shoebacca.
Andrew
Thank you for your knowldege, it is very extensive. I appreciate it. I will send your criticism to Dr. Amari and see what he thinks of your hypothesis….
Hamidoush….
Hey…how about me? What about my hypothesis? Could make Sandy Koufax a Arab Muslim if it all worked out.
I am not a religious scholar- but maybe I can add my view this topic. Is possible that Abraham and Ishmael connection or even the existence of the two characters could be just myth or a simply a fairy tale?
Every nation or tribe country at one time had its own national origin myth. Rome had its Romulus and Remus story- which kind sounds like Abel and Cain story(brother killing brother)- http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/romulus_and_remus.htm
Noah story sounds fantastic to me and its similarity to epic of Gilgamesh and all flood myths.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)
So, I am not sure if it is worth the effort arguing over all these myths… no disrespect but I had laugh over the Andrew and Hamidoush dialogue. I just wonder how the west Mediterranean region would be if Spanish and Italian were still fighting about the Romulus and Remus?
“Is possible that Abraham and Ishmael connection or even the existence of the two characters could be just myth or a simply a fairy tale?”
Yes.
I did say it’s a Muslim tradition to see it that way. However, it is likely that the Quraish (or some tribe of the Mecca region) is related to the Jews. And the Quraish’s connections to Syria point to an Aramaic relation.
So what’s the point of insisting that Muhammed is not a descendant of Yishmael?
“I am not sure if it is worth the effort arguing over all these myths”
As I said before I find it very useful and worth the effort. It connects people of different cultures, let’s them see that we are not as different as we might think, and gives two opposing sides a positive role model to focus on.
As for Noah, the region where he probably lived (today’s northern Iraq) has two giant rivers, and the land is very flat until it reaches the mountains in Kurdistan. I have seen it. There is a short series of hills and then very high mountains. The region floods every now and then. I would be surprised if Noah of all people never experienced a flood in his lifetime.
Jonah…
Well on a serious note…that is WHOLE point and problem with religion…THE big question…is it revelation? If so…then it is some pretty damn important shit…
Is it a bunch of myths folks used to try to explain, control, excuse, justify all kinds of behavior…was it self-serving for the “revealer”s? If so..that too is one hell of a problem…
And AB’s last comment…yeah…I agree…but it is a pity we have to scramble so hard to figure out that we are ALL in the same leaky boat…but to answer Rodney King’s question…”no Rodney…we just can’t all get along”…never have and never will…but a few of us do try and hope for something better.
Ok Howie,
You are on. I will ask Amari if he can see to it that the the shoe event and specially the journalist pitcher in Iraq have a slight probabilitty of making it to the minor leaugue of baseball. I am guessing he will fail the test, unless president Bush will be the hitter on base.
Andrew, I agree on this statement:
“It connects people of different cultures, let’s them see that we are not as different as we might think, and gives two opposing sides a positive role model to focus on.” In terms of Noah and flood myth there is a lot connections with older cultures.
The Noah story is probable a revision or reworking of Sumerian Ziusudra.
http://en.allexperts.com/e/z/zi/ziusudra.htm
I guess the ancient Iraqis were doing a lot more things beside throwing shoes at weak presidents..
“The Noah story is probable a revision or reworking of Sumerian Ziusudra.”
I read about that. But I know think that it is more likely that there were indeed several people who saved their family and animals from a flood in that region. The stories were later told and mixed.
That is possible. But the coincidence between stories is a bit too much…
http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/parallels.htm
Given the Sumerian are the more ancient civilization and first ones to start the writing game, it more likely the Babylonians, Hebrews, and other did a little borrowing or improvisation on older story… Of course, this kind of view is hard to accept for the religious type who believe the Bible is God’s word.
“Of course, this kind of view is hard to accept for the religious type who believe the Bible is God’s word.”
Why would it? The story can be Sumerian and true and the word of G-d. You are assuming, for some reason, that a story told by G-d cannot be a true (and Sumerian) story. I don’t see that at all.
I still think there was more than one such person though. The Bible speaks of one, other legends of others. Over time the legends got mixed up and started resembling each other more and more.
(Not that flood myths are so different to begin with. Cruises are boring. There is only so much that can happen.)
“(Not that flood myths are so different to begin with. Cruises are boring. There is only so much that can happen.)”
LOL
“TURN OFF THE CAMERAS”
why? i thought you guys are democratic?
Anybody who is in doubt about baseball helping people to keep their reflexes sharp long into the old age should watch this movie for a remarkable performance by mr. Bush. Regarding the reporter, all I can say that it sees he is no Palestinian. A Palestinian would not miss. Not after two decades spent in Intifadas. I would engineer another clip similar to this one in which the Iraqi reporter is replaced with a Palestinian one to encourage people to practice baseball or Intifadas in order to keep themselves fit and avoid burdening pensions systems.
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