A recent conversation between my mom and I went like something along the following lines. Believe me, I tried compromising as much as I could but still, no conclusion was reached.
Drima: You do realize, there’s a high possibility I won’t end up with a Sudanese girl.
Mom: But why?
Drima: Come on, let’s get real and practical mom. As it is, even guys in Sudan who already graduated and are now working have trouble finding the right one. And this is IN Sudan, where there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of interesting girls who may qualify. What makes you think it’s going to be easier for me here in Southeast Asia where there are only a handful of Sudanese girls, the majority of them being the complete opposite of what appeals to me?
Mom: Well then, in that case why not go back and spend some time back home? Or at least go back for a long holiday.
Drima: *laughs*
Mom: Who knows, you could bump into someone. You never know.
Drima: True, but I prefer to be realistic.
Mom: You’re dating someone now aren’t you?
Drima: Maybe, maybe not. *smiles mischievously*
Mom: Stop trying to tease me boy, it ain’t gonna work. Are you going out with someone? Tell me, who is she?
Drima: Let’s pretend I am and she’s not Sudanese, would that be a problem?
Mom: Well, I’d ask you to be patient before rushing passionately into anything.
Drima: Good point. But what if I’ve already been patient?
Mom: *sighs*
Drima: *smiles*
Mom: I’d say be patient some more. Is she Muslim?
Drima: Who? I didn’t even say anything about me dating anyone right now. And why does this “she” have to be Muslim?
Mom: What do you mean???
Drima: Okay, I get it, so let me just make something clear. I prefer for this right “one” to be both Sudanese AND Muslim. It would be nice because it would make things a lot easier since we’ll have a shared background. However, those factors are not a must for me
Mom: But at least, she does have to be Muslim, right?
Drima: Not necessarily.
Mom: WHAT?!
Drima: *smiles*
Mom: That’s unacceptable!
Drima: Why? And please, I beg you, don’t give me a theological argument based on faith. Reason this with me.
Mom: Think of your kids, they’re going to grow up confused.
Drima: Hmmm… you’re right. You have a point. Okay, fine, but then again, what type of Muslim? I’d rather marry a wonderful atheist than some crazed puritanical Wahhabi freak who’d later want to put a hijab on my five year old daugther’s head.
Mom: You’ll find the right one and she won’t be nutty. Stop being so cynical. You already know the majority aren’t like that.
Drima: Aren’t worldviews, philosophical convictions and shared passions, things which are more important? What about trust, empathy, understanding and love?
Mom: Faith is important!
Drima: I’m not saying it isn’t, mom. Like I said, I prefer the “right” one to be both Sudanese AND Muslim. You’re absolutely right in how it makes things easier especially when it comes to raising kids. Heck, it’s certainly going to make things a lot easier with you involved in the picture like this. Now, all I’m saying is that it doesn’t have to be either those two supposedly must-factors or nothing. To me, Sudanese and Muslim are not musts. They’re a preference, and they’re not necessarily the most important things at the top of the list. That’s it.
Mom: Fine, Sudanese is a preference. But Muslim is a must. It must be a must.
Drima: Hmmm… I disagree.
Mom: Whatever. So, who is she? You’re so dating someone right now, aren’t you?
Drima: *smiles* … Maybe, maybe not.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
The discussion would have been all the more interesting if it were a Sudanese female.
Sudanese Girl: Mum, although I’d prefer to marry a Sudanese AND Muslim, I don’t think it’s necessary.
Sudanese Mother: ASTAGHFIRULLAH! Your father was right after all - those Turkish soaps are ruining the morals of our morals. Now go do something useful and prepare the evening tea.
*end of discussion*
Great topic…
To begin with…I don’t much care for marriage based on race or nationality…I mean…should I be married to an Jewish American of Polish, Ukranian/Russian decent? You see…this gets on my grind about people giving a shit about their culture…culture is entertaining…but I am not willing to go to war about language, music, food, dress and artifacts or whatever…People often mix culture with religion and don’t really think of it..
Oh I am “proud to be an American”…Why? I was just born that way…did work at it much. Am I proud of American Nazis, the KKK, George Bush Jr., Son of Sam,? There are things I am proud of and things I am not proud of.
Marriage with religion as a factor…yes…I understand that…IF religion is a factor with the people getting married.
But I have a different issue. I am a parent of 3 adult children and I see a lot of fellow parents trying to still run their adult children’s lives. Why? What is that about? Did they all make such perfect choices with their own lives? You will marry black, Asian, Greek. You will study medicine, you will vote Republican…WTF? Why not have a dog…they are fully obedient. ;
Kawthar…YOU have to live with the man you marry…not Mom and Dad…Let them making their own fucking tea and go marry a Jewish Turk if he is the greatest guy in the world. Every Sudanese woman married to a Sudanese/Muslim guy is just happy as a fly in a dairy?
These two subjects drive me kind of nuts. I DO understand the advantages of one of your own (along with all the in-bred genetic crap getting passed along one more time). Again…I do understand marrying someone of the same religion…but marrying to please your parents or to maintain a culture or really for rather racist reason…screw that.
Ah dear Kawthar,
wallahi ya zareefa, believe me when I say I sooo sympathize with you. It’s A LOT harder being a girl than a guy in these kinds of situations and it seriously boils my blood.
I can’t stand the bullshit and the patriarchal toxicity that sadly most of us aren’t even seeing. It’s like the big fat elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about.
I always get into these kinds of discussions with my parents and especially my mom nowadays.
Ultimately, it always seems to me that it’s not the act itself that matters so much, but rather what people will say.
We take the whole damn thing with honor to an extreme. Plus, the fact that gossip is such a significant aspect of our culture, doesn’t make it any better.
I’ve made up my mind and made it clear to my parents that the final decision is mine and mine alone. I will NEVER compromise and make one just to please them. Ultimately it’s MY life, and I said it to them in the most utmost respectful way possible.
Heck, if my future lucky “she” ends up being an atheist blond Jew (which will scream “immoral” and “not a virgin” to traditionalists), I still won’t care.
Howie,
Why don’t you see religion the same way you see culture? I don’t think the two are that different.
I mean just think of this. Most Muslims are not Muslims out of conviction but rather indoctrination and birth. The same goes for those who behave within the traditions of a certain culture.
Aren’t they both just dogma at the end of the day?
Why respect and unquestionably follow such things and give them such undeserving importance anyways?
They’re mere externalities and garbs we wear. It’s what’s on the inside that matters (and yes, I know it sounds cliche but still).
And dude, check this.
Let’s say I had a very limited choice between the following two…
I can get together with a five-times-a-day praying boring Muslim holding a worldview radically different from mine - lacks ambition, has a mindset of victimhood not just in politics but in everything from desiring a satisfactory job to educational performance, gossips excessively, treats her friends like shit, enjoys small talk, ethically compromised, has no sense of direction, untrustworthy etc.
Or
I can get together with an atheist I enjoy being with who has a big heart, compassion, and a wordlview like mine - ambitious, full of great possibilities, optimistic, etc.
Which one should someone choose?
Me?
I prefer the latter, but I know traditionalists will go ballistic simply because she hasn’t said “I bear witness that there is no God and Muhammad is his final prophet”
Seriously, culture, observance of religious rituals or faith in a greater power just aren’t the most important damn qualities in a person. While they’d make a nice bonus, the true inner goodness of a person isn’t dependent on the aforementioned factors and it drives me nuts that so much emphasis is placed on them.
Makes sense?
Kawthar
Loool
Thank you !!!
Drima-
The difference between culture and religion is that culture is clearly an invention of man and religion might be from God…there is a huge difference…
My own life plays it out…Culturally, I could not have married a woman more different than me; I am white, American of Eastern European descent. My parents were athiests and liberals.
My wife is Arab, Iraqi, dark, tradtional conservative family, religious background…
Two main things we had in common..we gave half a damn about our religion and we had many shared values and worldviews. Those things matter…I don’t give a damn if her background is a family that wears pajamas and house slippers all day and eats sambusak betawah and speaks Arabic. It is entertaining…yes…but so what.
Drima…did I not tell you two years ago that you would have a tortured soul?
Drima-
Once again…to me, religion is likely the only path to Truth…if such exists…The only real shot at some kind of revelation about life being more than radomness, chaos, probabilities and a whole lot of very meaningless suffering…it is the only real shot at TRUE MEANING…
Culture is man’s attempt to impose meaning on the universe with little rituals and magic and yes dogmas.
So we are either a mostly tragic accident, with a very Lotto winners…or somewhere buried under all the horseshit there is a beautiful pony…which summarizes my philosophy of life and religion…there has to be a pony…and that pony is not Muslim, Jewish, Christian etc…though each soul that has climbed out of the dung a bit has maybe contributed some access for the rest of us to that pony. Maybe religion gives us a variety of shovels to dig through the crap…my shovel just happens to be Jewish…and you can tell too…because it is a very expensive one…but you can see on the sticker I got it wholesale.
Drima,
Out of curiousity, does Islam’s view on marrying athiests not make a difference?
Not sure if you just said it for the sake or argument.
Kawthar,
Bir Al Walidayn (satisfying the parents) is a major thing to us muslims. I will definately prioritise my parents’ preference when choosing a wife. There might arise a situation where we disagree but never underestimate how difficult it will turn out to be if they disaprove of your choice.
I might have it easier since my parents are pretty open-minded about marriage and we tend to share the same criteria!
aaahhh.. now u know how i feel babe.
in the end, it’s fine if the guy is not muslim, but he’d have to convert. end of discussion. *sigh* life is so complicated.
Howie,
“The difference between culture and religion is that culture is clearly an invention of man and religion might be from God…there is a huge difference…”
Yes, but then you forget to note that the bulk of “religion” is based on the interpretation of *men* and this is especially so with how Islam is generally practiced.
“Drima…did I not tell you two years ago that you would have a tortured soul?”
Ah, trust me, there have been times when it was pure mental torture, BUT… ultimately it’s always been worth the pain.
And LOL about the shovels, I had a good laugh. Wonderful analogy. I might steal it!
Salam ya AOS,
it’s been a while ya zool. Frankly, I didn’t mention marrying atheists purely for the sake of argument.
And to answer your question on whether or not what Islam says makes a difference, I’ll ask you a few questions.
What is Islam? Who gets to define Islam? On what basis do those who interpret the Quran think they’re right and other scholars who differ with them wrong?
Think about those questions for a while, and let me just say that I increasingly prefer holding on to the Sword of Reason in all matters except those
where Reason is useless - such as the question of what happens after death. Therein comes faith.
Also, do please look at the scenario I gave regarding the Muslim Vs the Atheist.
If you had the limited choice between those two and those two only, which one would you pick?
Your opinion would be appreciated.
blodyn,
lol, yeah we’ve had those discussions a number of times… well hey, be thankful, I suspect your situation isn’t as bad as Kawthar’s.
Drima-
“Yes, but then you forget to note that the bulk of “religion” is based on the interpretation of *men* and this is especially so with how Islam is generally practiced.”
Sure…of course that is the rub…and Judaism was about 1500 years ahead of you guys in terms of complicating “THE BOOK” with man’s interpretations and have created a body of literature that no normal man can master.
So I still stand by my comment…when religion becomes “culturized” it is part of man-made culture. Now who is out there giving us the “TRUE” interpretation…hah…and HAH and HAH HAH…there is the rub once again. I don’t believe any man ever has…but I do feel many have given us bits and pieces…
I said religion MIGHT be the path to Truth…in terms of some kind of direct experience of God and God’s Will. Culture is entertainment for the most part…But is religion utterly cluttered with culture…i.e. supersition, cute rituals, etc. Sure…it is…try going to an Orthodox event without a head cover…you would cause a small riot…but nowhere does it say you must wear a headcover…but that is a different story..
It seems that my comment was taken as an account of a personal situation of mine, when I was simply trying to make a point that such a discussion would be unthinkable for most Sudanese (in fact, Muslim) girls.
For us women, there’s the extra baggage of only being allowed to marry Muslim men (and yes, I am aware of the differing views that have emerged, but they will not become mainstream opinions anytime soon).
Anyway, one of my favourite quotes on relgion is by Gibran:
As far as I’m concerned, “Jewish” “Buddhist” “Baha’i”, etc are simply labels we ascribe to ourselves and it’s not a criteria I would put into consideration when seeking a future spouse.
And AOS, while I wholeheartedly agree that we must serve our parents in their old age and respect all the sacrifices they’ve made for us, there comes a point where parents cannot simply expect to be obeyed blindly.
Anyway, I’m not even considering marriage any time soon, but if I do, I’m going for a Baha’i (equality all the way!) chef (I hate cooking almost as much as I hate restaurant food).
I see what you’re saying Howie.
Baha’i chef? LOL, good one K.
And sooo agree with you about respecting parents.
Respect? Yes, absolutely. Blind obedience? No, thanks.
Drima,
Hope all is well! I am good, can’t complain (but we always do!)
Granted, some things are harder to rule on than others. But if you apply that train of thought on whether we can marry atheists, I could wake up tomorrow and decide that praying only once as opposed to five is more ‘reasonable’.
Relying on one’s reasoning only is what, and no intention to offend, christianity has become. That is in fact part of the reason why Islam came about. I mentioned this before but just because some scholars seem to have gone a bit loony does not mean I will ignore all others and rely on my own interpretations. Reliance on more knowledgeable sources has been an integral part of Islam since its beginnings.
Also, the issue of marrying non-people-of-the-book women (im sure theres a word for that!) for muslim men is addressed in the Quran…one of those issues which is not too complex to interpret.
As for the two girls, I’d choose the muslim. Controversial, but simply because I believe she has more reason and potential to be geniunely good. She is driven by values and a religion which demands such. And by good I mean a good heart. I prioritise that over intellect.
Kawthar,
Compromise from both sides is ideal. But my point is that as a muslim you should always seek to find a husband/wife who your family will be happy with.
Guys…
As a parent of 3 young adults… I again say…
Respect…Maybe…some parents are shitheads and don’t deserve your respect.
Blind obedience…don’t be a fool…you don’t blindly obey anybody.
LISTENING…yes…listening and obeying are different. If we are wise people…we can be wise parents…if we are morons as people…we don’t magically become something super because we figured out how to make babies…dumbass human = dumbass parent.
Your parents don’t own you and they need to respect you also…they should learn to discover who YOU are and not mold and bribe and guilt you into being something THEY NEED…they don’t live with your spouse…the “nice jewish boy” who just happens to be a porno addict or whatever…A nice Muslim boy or, fill in the blank…qualifies you as nothing except somebody who was born into a religion and didn’t bail out…
Listen…but think for yourselves…If they like the nice Zoraster doctor so much…let them marry her.
Another lecture by Howie:
YOU have to live your life. You are answerable to yourself and likely to God…
You should love and respect and honor your parents, but sperm and egg donors are NOT automatically wonderful, caring people. At a minimum, your parents are flawed…at worse…they are bad people…Saddam Hussesin had lots of kids as did Stalin…Should Ouday Hussein been obedient to that dad? Hell no…
Your parents dragged you into this often horrific world to met THEIR needs…they owe you much more than you owe them. As long as you are not some shithead brat or beast, they should honor, love and cherish you. They should encourage you to find who and what you are and not mold you to meet their needs. If their wishes are wrong…then you must rebel, run…screw your damn culture…screw culture…it is a man-made invention…nothing more…serve tea from the right…who fucking cares? Bow, shake hands, kiss cheeks…OK…very cute…but SO WHAT!!!
What I sense in the voices here is a striving for goodness and I can think of no greater ambition in life. Marry a fucking pigmy, albino, rock worshipping bushman if he is a good and decent man. Go learn to sing opera…don’t let the Imams and the preachers and the rabbis rule you until they have answered your questions and EARNED your loyalty and respect…These are flawed humans too…flawed…flawed and flawed…
Focus on good, love, caring. Be alert…understand your mom and dad are as human as you and they can make bad choices. Stand up for yourself…challenge them to care about you and not to care about what they need you to be…
Be a bit of a maverick…but a maverick that seeks out decency…look hard into your soul and let your mind, instincts and God, sure your friends and parents to, guide you…guide…not take you over.
Don’t be a robot…don’t be dead in your youth…don’t sell out your own hopes and dreams…
Kawthar…
Gibran is cool…I only recently learned that he left Lebanon as a little kid and grew up in the USA…Always thought he grew up there…he wrote so longingly about it…
He was the Bible for us hippies in the 70’s…along with Hess and Tolken and a few others…
Good memories…
“the distance between a sage and a fool is the width of a spider’s web”…
kind of goes with what I have been preaching about
Howie, I must reply to you
There is no God. There is no Truth. You - and me - are an agglutination of atoms so abysmally small, so insignificant that we simply don’t count (except as observers burrowing through space/time). The universe doesn’t care. There is no purpose, no guide, no revelations. When you die, you - the accidental side-effect of interaction between bits of meat in your brain - will cease to be (except as a region in space/time).
You can imagine a purpose and live by it.
You can decide on such ultimately arbitrary matters as good/bad and live by these.
You can be a hedonist;
A hermit;
A lunatic;
A saint;
Anything.
And it still won’t make the universe notice you. You are nothing.
With the potential to be a God. Or maybe not.
Does it ever occur to people like your Mum that non-Muslims find their attitudes grossly offensive and insulting?
AOS,
Glad to know all is well on your side
“Relying on one’s reasoning only is what, and no intention to offend, christianity has become. That is in fact part of the reason why Islam came about.”
Eh? That’s one of the strangest things I’ve heard all week.
You seem to imply that reason is a bad thing.
I guess the main difference between you and me is in the amount of trust we have in Islamic scholars, especially traditionalists.
“I’d choose the muslim. Controversial, but simply because I believe she has more reason and potential to be geniunely good. She is driven by values and a religion which demands such. And by good I mean a good heart.”
But isn’t that a misconception AOS? Are you suggesting that if one is an atheist, one isn’t capable of having a good heart?
Think about what you said for a minute.
I have atheist friends who are some of the most well-meaning people I’ve known my whole life.
On the other hand, I know some Muslims (and by Muslims, I mean believers in the Shahada and practice rituals fairly well) who are pretty screwed up. Backstabbers, lie, and are far from being driven by values.
Believing in God and Prophet Muhammad, doesn’t make you a good person. Not believing in a higher power, doesn’t make you a bad person.
Howie,
“Be a bit of a maverick”
LOL, I think you’ve been watching Palin too much dude.
Abu Sa’ar,
Maaan, why so much cynicism? Why this dry “heartless” perspective? Try being more spiritual. I think you’ll enjoy it dude and it might be of great value.
Don Cox,
I guess not. You’ve gotta understand where they’re coming room. I’m not sure if I’d label it “insulting” but annoyingly restrictive? Ya, sure.
Drima, I don’t think you understood Don Cox’s question. He was talking about non-Muslims feelings, not the feelings of the child of the grossly ofensive and insulting mother.
Don, from personal experience, people with these attitudes don’t care about the feelings of the people that they are insulting. They do not even have the ability to see it as an insult or think that the feelings of the infidel need to be considered.
My own daughter is Muslim and she was transformed, almost immediately upon conversion, into a highly offensive and inconsiderate person (towards non-Muslims that is). She told me that I, as a non-Muslim, had no business lecturing her on morality (treating all people with respect) when she was suspended from school for being offensive to someone. She called me a slut (disguised in a cough)when I was wearing capris and short sleeves. When asked by a potential husband about any future children’s contact with her parents she stated that it would be supervised only. Do you think I was offended and insulted? Oh HELL yeah! Do you really think her attitude towards non-Muslims is uncommon? Oh HELL NO! It’s just that you, as an outsider, do not get the opportunity to hear what they really think of you most times. When you live with them and are in charge of them it’s kinda hard to miss and even harder to stomach!
Lynn,
“My own daughter is Muslim and she was transformed, almost immediately upon conversion, into a highly offensive and inconsiderate person (towards non-Muslims that is).”
I’m sorry to hear that, it sounds like she got sucked into the Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation.
But you do realize you’re making sweeping generalizations right?
“Do you really think her attitude towards non-Muslims is uncommon? Oh HELL NO!”
And you know that from what? From that experience alone?
The spectrum is wide and diverse Lynn, so please let’s not jump to conclusions.
I know people who’ve had completely different experiences after converting or simply after experiencing an epiphany that made them more spiritual and religious.
They become better people, by a mile.
As for the issue of marriage in the context of a religious community, Muslims aren’t alone.
Marrying outside the religion is a big deal to many, if not most religious parents whether Jews, Christians, Muslims, or even Mormons.
Frankly, I think many people take faith too seriously to the point where it becomes a divisive rather than an uplifting force in the face of the unknown.
It would be nice to see religions become more humanist.
Drima - I am not cynical, bro. The opposite - I find the fact that universe can not and will not notice me… liberating. There is no meaning other than what I give to things.
I am, thus, a God in some aspects. And inshallah, with technology providing the infrastructure, I will become all God and as much Raccoon as I choose
Abu Raccon…
You sneaky raccon bastard. Welcome back. Sorry, but there is order in the chaos…there is a pony under all the piles and piles of manure…
Too complex…too terrible and too beautiful to be a comsic accident of this from nothing…
I understand you darkness…I feel it also…but it is not even faith that I base my comments on…but an intuition…then again…maybe its the drugs?
Dude, of course there’s order in the chaos. And there isn’t, because we make the meaning. The shit is a fertilizer, a unique chemical system that is ticking like a huge machine, a flawless latticework of quarks and gluons. It’s also something nasty you step in, food for your chickens, heating material, a rich tapestry composed of traces from processes and creatures in the shitter’s gastrointestinal tract.
Meaning is man-made. There is no shit. There is no pony. And THIS is why the universe is beautiful and marvelous - because you give it meaning, you choose to see it as beautiful and marvelous.
The amazing perfection of HIV’s envelope, clicking flawlessly into place on a T cell. The intricate dance your body performs when hungry - a huge and complex system working in tandem. The awe-inspiring nothingness of space… Perfect. It doesn’t need a reason or a cause. It just IS, and as such it is perfect. Not an accident of the cosmos - a decision made by YOU, ya Drima. You too are a God.
Ignore the simian limitations for now - they are not insurmountable.
Oooh, drugs!
LOL
When are you gonna do it, then? Marriage, that is?
And hey, it’s something you do mostly for the parents anyway. Why marry when you can have all the same things with someone but without the religious hassle?
‘it sounds like she got sucked into the Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation.
But you do realize you’re making sweeping generalizations right?’
I most definitely am and that Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation is more sweeping than my generalizations. But notice that I clarified that I was talking about ‘those’ kind of Muslims not Muslims in general. Don’t assume that I would make a statement based on one experience. I’ve done a lot of research and met a lot of people in the last 6 years.
‘It would be nice to see religions become more humanist.’
I couldn’t agree more but I’m certainly not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
Abu Raccoon-
You have been reading too much existentialism…
Life either has meaning…or it doesn’t. Artificially giving life meaning does not give it meaning…that is just self-delusion…If it is all a big complex accident…then nothing means nothing and everything means nothing…
You could be right…again…life appears pretty random…but my intuition defies what I actually observe…and yes…I think, on I FEEL…that there is a pony…buried damn deep.
Life is not random, as such. It’s just that chaos and order are a matter or perception, and perception is a matter of choice.
Insofar as choice exists, of course.
Objects have meaning only in their interaction with other objects (or rather their interaction with the observer).
Which entails ultimate responsibility for the world (given that its meaning is derived from observers). There’s no escape, ya Howie. You too are a God and you too are responsible
Drima,
Strange? Not really. I used the word ‘only’. Using one’s reasoning ‘only’. From my understanding, the proper method of deriving rulings and interpretations for a muslim is Quran-Hadith-Scholars-Own reasoning. Why give scholars more say? Cause in Islam, considering the right conditions (i.e. a just islamic system), a scholar issuing a fatwa would be held responsible for the actions of the people who go by that fatwa (also keep in mind that Fatwas do not come from one source…there are deliberations with other scholars)
Christianity’s demise (from my point of view as a Muslim) is largely due to too much freedom given to Christians to interpret as per their own ‘reasoning’. You give everyday Christians too much say on how to interpret the religion with no structure on how to derive rulings and interpretations. If you don’t impose limits and proper methods you get things like altered text. As I mentioned earlier, before you know it people will be changing the way they pray. How to fast. Then again, keep in mind extremes, to both ends of the spectrum. No need to be too lax, and no need to be too methodically strict.
‘Khayrul Omoor Awsatoha’
As for the rest, I disagree. I know atheists as well and I see what you are saying, but from my experience a muslim simply has more reason to be good, and in the long run my money is on them proving to be more well-meaning. I’m sure you have heard the saying ‘love one another for the sake of Allah’.
That, to me, is much more powerful than ‘for the sake of friendship’.
So when it comes to marriage, I’d rather go for a girl who does, or who will in the future, realise the essence of our religion and understanding the importance of that perspective. Because when she does, I bet that when worse comes to worst (I like to go to extremes when deciding if a person is well-meaning towards me) she’ll be a greater asset to me. That perspective, and Islam generally, is all about doing away with any sign of over-individualism.
AOS-
Why would you trust religious authorities. Do you believe they truly have your best interests in mind or their own petty ambitions?
I don’t trust them…There certainly would be those I would respect…but I see all religious authorities as just humans…humans that are fallible, biased, selfish, deluded, greedy, ambitious and all the other faults. I would give them attention and might accept what they have to say…but then I might not…because I do not see them as having any special pipeline to God.
Abu Raccoon-
Did you smoke some weed and wake up thinking you are Jean Paul Sarte or something?
I understand the viewpoint, but don’t agree…essentially it leads to moral relativism, which is a disaster. And besides…I do believe in a Creator and I do believe their are universal standards and there is good and bad…though I see these things on a spectrum and not as polarized absolutes.
As for the difference between religion and culture, I would say that cultures evolve, while religions are invented.
we have some Sudanese friends w/ one saying the same thing and after dating many a different girl… guess what?! he’s now engaged to a Sudanese girl!
@ Abu Raccoon: Damn you! just as I thought there was one more cynic here. There you come back in disguise.
Other than that: Drima, my man, you attract the sanest/weirdest cross-cultural bunch ever! If we could all use our reason over emotion, what a Brave New World it would be. Bless y’all.
AOS,
I agree that reason alone isn’t enough in our search for the truth, as for the rest I strongly disagree.
I think it’s evident now where and why we disagree whenever the topic if Islamic traditionalism has come up.
I have little trust in Muslim scholars. I don’t completely disregard them. There are some very bright ones, but the majority to be frank are either moderately dogmatic or just outright delusional.
I trust reason more. In fact, I believe the Muslim world needs less fear, less unexamined faith, less trust in Islamic traditionalism and more reason.
Please do stick around as I will be exploring this topic more in the future. I’d like to elaborate more on my position and why I think it’s the right approach.
But for now, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
um naief,
that’s usually the case with many Sudanese guys.
Halalhippie,
LOL, tell me about it. Yaaay, to the internet.
sudanese peoples liberation army
http://www.squidoo.com/Sudan-1
Reminds me of my youth
Drima, when i was your age, i had the excactly same thoughts as you have now with regards to nationality and religion. My mother also preferred that i married an egyptian (or at least an arab!), and man did we have some discussions about just that!! On the same time, i realized that most egyptian girls did not suite me well, and that i preferred a foreigner. As a result, there was a rather big possibility that i would end up with a non-muslim woman, but that was a point i did’nt dare to bring up with moms 
And suddently, what happended… one summer, i met a wonderful lady, an egyptian lady living in Denmark with her parents - and thank God, she was muslim too. That solved all the issues
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