Some dude left a pretty interesting comment in the comments section of an older post I wrote, but I can’t clarify if it’s true or not.
Here’s the comment (posted by Asaru Nun Atun on August 22nd, 2008 8:05 am):
Shalom luk wa Barukuwth a’l Ent. I am student of Rabbi: Dr Malachi Zodok york El/also known as Issa Al Haadi Al Mahdi who is from the Sudan of the Mahdi family. He has taught us that before Sudan was an Islamic country it had a large population of nubian poeple that were Judaic tribes, before and after the destruction of the temple mount in Jerusalem during the time of 70 A.D.
These tribes became known as the lost tribes that can be found in lower Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya today. One such tribe is known as the Danakiyl tribe of northern Ethiopia also known as the Rashada tribes. Some of these tribes later converted in the six century to Christianity, from their original Hebrew doctrine. In North Sudan they became known as Dongalawa or Dongola, being decendents of the tribes of Dan and Judah of Israel, in Ethiopia they are called Falasha also. Here are the names of many other tribes, such as the Afars that are divided into major groups, the Adoyammaras and the Asahyammaras, which are divided into several tribes and sub tribes. The other people are Hadendawa, Beja, Issas, Abgals, Wardiqs ect. Many of these tribes are muslims now, because they had intermarried into the Ishmaelite Arab tribes during the time of the Fatimahites rule of Egypt and Sudan. Little do historians know that Muhammad Ahamd Al Mahdi of the Sudan is from the tribe of Dongalawa, he is my Rabbi’s great grand father through his father Abdur Rahman Al Haadi Al Mahdi and his father Abdur Rahman Al Mahdi my teacher’s grand father. The Mahdi’s lineage can be traced all the back to the tribe of Judah on one side and the Prophet Muhammad through Ali And Fatimah on the other side of the family, name by name. For example look at the way the Sudanese muslims dress, They wear an all white robe called a Jalabiya, they wear a prayer cap called a Kufi and in hebrew its known as a Kupa, and last but not least they are the only muslims that wear a Tallith called a Shawl with blue or back stripes for prayer. Many of the original Islamic customs come from the Judiaic Religion. these are same clothes that the Falasha tribe of Ethiopia wear during prayer. This is were Muhammad got his Sunnah or customs from after his flight from Medinah into ethiopia which muslim try to deny, yet they won’t admit it because they think Muhammad started their Religion. Also Bilal Ben Rabah was from the ethiopian tribe of Danakiyl Known as Falasha. I hope that I have given you some answers in your quest for the truth in these days and times. As my Rabbi would say to us don’t believe me please check it out. Shalom my brother.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 38 comments… read them below or add one }
I don’t know what does this person want to reach?
The problem with his interesting comment is that it has no references or links where one might find detailed evidence.
His general points that many people in northern Africa followed some version of Judaism before the Arab conquest, and that most of the beliefs and customs of Islam were derived from Judaism, are hardly controversial.
I am cool with that…Welcome Nubian homies…
Not sure I like that Mahdi family much. Sounds nasty what the Mahdi wanted to do and what he did to the Egyptians and British.
WOW!!! How convenient is it to have trace one side of the family straight from the prophete Mohamed and the other to the tribe of Judah. I am glad he did not mentioned the tribe of Cohens the descendents of Hebreu tabernable priests from Aaron the contemporary of Moses. I would not have beleive it. Anyway another chance to merge judaism and islam bits the dust, just kidding. Never will happen, because one is more false than the other.
We are not so far apart and I have yet to see why both Judaism and Islam would be false.
Muhammed was, as far as I can tell, a descendant of Ishmael and the tribe of Judah is, at least nominally, a descendant of Ishmael’s younger brother.
We too often forget that we should be so close.
It is rather silly that muslims and jews are at each others throats when we so much in common.
Salaam
“muslims and jews are at each others throats”
I never see Muslims and Jews at each other’s throats.
I know many Muslims, none of them is at any Jew’s throat. I am not kidding. I found religion a very good subject to build bridges.
Since the commenter mentioned a Malachi Zodok York, I was wondering if he was talking about this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_york. That guy’s religious group is very iffy. I also doubt that it would be a good source of information on Nubian history.
Sorry, I think I messed up the link
It is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_york
“It is rather silly that muslims and jews are at each others throats when we so much in common.”
The general rule among believers is that the less the differences between sects, the greater the hostility.
Exactly! Sunnis hate Shiites, and Orthodox hate Catholics, etc etc etc…
To start of, i too am fascinated by the mere fact that we could have Sudanese Jews, Dremer. I’m Sudanese, so I see your point of view. I’ve also read Eli Malka’s “Jacob’s Children in the Land of the Mahdi: Jews of the Sudan”, the Arabic translation of it as i’m in Sudan for the summer and well you know how hard it is to get a hold of anything here. I know you wrote this about a year ago and if your still interested in the topic you might as well hit the books. (On this matter AR, wikipedia isn’t a valid source, any idiot could have wrote it). I’ m doing a bit of research myself, if your interested i will pass anything concrete i get a hold of.
All in all however, Jews and Muslims are from one forefather, no one can deny that fact. I hope that one day (soon), people do realize that and would begin to find means to co-habit and live peacefully together…it is the inevitable after all. Most importantly, i do hope people would learn to differentiate between Judaism and Zionism. when that happens….well i don’t know what going to happen?? hopefully something positive. =)
Anyways, I actually stumbled upon your blog Dremer as i was Googleing reviews of Malka’s book.
Curioustoo…
You should visit a lot…You will learn things that might surprise you. I have.
I hope not. Whenever people differentiate between Judaism, two things happen:
1. Suddenly Jews are no longer allowed to follow Moses’ command from G-d and live in Israel, because only Zionists do that.
2. Suddenly all Jews are Zionists and thus become legitimate targets of whatever violence the world wants to bring on them.
I would prefer it if people would learn that Zionism is an intrinsic part of Judaism. Even the Quran cites Moses commanding the Jews to live in the holy land. And when the Muslims took Israel from the Christians, they told the Jews that their exile was over.
The entire Zionism discussion is simply a result of Arab nationalism unable to accept that the Arabs are not the only people in the middle east. The hatred for “Zionists”, i.e. Jews, is an import from Europe and it is time that Muslims get rid of it rather than try to find excuses for keeping it.
A “Zionist” is a middle-eastern Jew who is still alive and and a first-class citizen. The alternative in the Arab world is death or life as a second-class citizen or slave. A Zionist is a free Jew.
Mr.Brehm,
Yes, Zionism and Judaism are inter connected. However, the point i was trying to state, was simply that not every Jew is a Zionist. This is a mistake most arabs/muslims do. Judaism is a religion and Zionism is well… an ideology. It is NOT applicable to all Jews. This has become a stereotype if you will, a stereotype that i find simply incorrect. Its like saying “all Arabs are Muslims”, where Arab only make less then a third of Muslims. Do u see where I’m going with this?
Personally, I some what believe in the Zionist ideology. However, the means of which they reclaimed the “holy land”…I don’t like. In the Israeli-Arab conflict, there isn’t a good guy/bad guy scenario. Both are claiming right to the holy land and both do have a right to it. It’s the amount of violence and coldness in which they approach the conflict (i mean Israelis) especially in recent years.
Regarding, ” A Zionist is a free Jew” . You could not have been closer to the truth! There is no doubt that Israel is a democratic nation, where it’s citizens have freedom to pursue what ever they wish. Unfortunately most Arabs don’t know that.
Howie…
Your going to see a lot more of me =)
Well, there are a few that are not. But the vast majority are. It’s the basis of the Jewish religion, the legend of Moses commanding Jews to live in the land of Israel. It’s fundamental to Judaism like the holy status of Mecca is to Islam and the divinity of Jesus is to modern Christianity. Jews have prayed for 2000 years for a return to Jerusalem.
It’s like saying that not all Muslims pray towards Mecca. I am sure some don’t, for whatever reason. But I am convinced that over 90% do if they have the chance and try to be proper Muslims.
They bought land in Israel until they were attacked. What is wrong with buying land to reclaim it?
Tel Aviv was built on land bought from Bedouins back in the Ottoman days. Has there ever before been an attempt to buy a country?
(Just yesterday I had a chance to look at a 1920s article from a Zionist newspaper written in Germany which described how the land registry in British Palestine had re-opened and the Zionist organisation could thus continue to buy land.)
If you want to complain about the violence Israel employs when attacked, that’s another thing. That’s not how the Zionists reclaimed the holy land. It’s how the Zionists respond when attacked.
You see, the Holocaust left its marks. And when a federation of hundreds of millions of people suddenly screams “Death to the Jews!” and attacks (and keeps attacking), Jews get paranoid.
There are two obvious solutions to this: One, calm down the Jews or criticise their violence and make them stop employing it. Two, stop screaming “Death to the Jews!” and attacking. Personally, I think the world should finally focus on the latter. The first was already tried in WW2 and didn’t really work.
I think it’s Jewish land and local Arabs have/had a right to live there. But I do not believe that those Arabs who attacked the Jews (and those traitors who left the country when it was under attack) still have a right to live there.
(I have seen a newspaper from 1948 in Haifa University. In it the first Jewish and last Arab mayor of Haifa called on the Arab population to stay and defend the city against the (Syrian?) attackers. But most Arabs left. In contrast to popular belief the Jews, outnumbered by Arabs inside and outside Palestine, did not really figure that it would be a bright idea to fight the invaders and the local population. That wasn’t the plan. The plan was to build a country together. The alternative looked like certain suicide. It was a miracle that Israel survived anyway.)
I am the last person who would say that, say, a Bedouin who fought for his country Israel doesn’t have a right to live there. But an Arab who votes for Hamas doesn’t have the right to life in the same country as the people he wants to kill.
I agree.
But this could happen everywhere in the Arab world too. Jews are not better than Arabs, they just focused on different things.
When the Arabs were trying to build an empire from the West-African coast to Iran with the land they won from the Ottoman Empire and later got from the French, the Jews were building a democratic country. I think this is where the Arab world went wrong. The Arabs also dismissed their wiser leaders (the Hashemites of Hejaz) and then followed complete idiots like Nasser and the Baath parties.
It could have been different.
It’s a big BIG generalization to claim that all Jews are Zionist. Not to mention prejudice. Your no better then any Arab Brehm. Such generalizations and stereotypes cause people to automatically be prejudice against Jews.
The only reasons the Arabs started screaming “death to the jews” is when they realized the Zionist true intentions are.
Don’t get me wrong, I know my history. Jews got what they were looking for and implemented what they believed in. There is nothing wrong with that. However, under the Treaty of Versailles 1919, Palestine became a mandate under the British. Under this term, was a clause which allowed the Jewish agency to be established and also on along term a Zionist nation, however most Arabs Disapproved of it. But you know all this don’t you??
Again with the generalization Brehm. Seriously. So what every Palestinian is for Hamas now?.For your information, majority of Arabs and Gazawians do not support Hamas. Do you think any one in their right mind would support a regime that brought on such destruction on the civilians of Gaza last December/January. The answer is NO, like most Arabs parties, they forced themselves on the people. While the poor civilians suffer with out means of survival, while the rest of the world sits on their ass doing jack, this includes Hamas.
Look, Arabs have their faults and their virtues. I agree that Israel has great virtues too. However, her faults at times are despicable.
Regarding the holy land.
Well, I’m for the two-state solution. You can’t eliminate Palestine or Israel and thats that. However, the holy land (Jerusalem) can be claimed by the three leading religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity). There are people from all three religions who have been living in Jerusalem for generations, so no one can actually claim it.
Some Arabs are schmucks and some got their hands in the dirt and did something. Nasser played a vital role in Arab history, he did some good things for Egypt. You can’t deny that…
He is talking about Dr. York - that guy is crazy and runs a cult.
Who claimed that ALL Jews are Zionist?
The rest of your comment seems similarly illogical. It appears you didn’t read what I wrote but simply generalised as to what I might have said.
I know the majority of Palestinian Arabs probably don’t support Hamas (although they did vote for them!). But how is that relevant? I didn’t say that the majority of Arabs supported Hamas. I just said that those who did lost their right to live next to the people they want to kill.
So what exactly did the Zionists do that you disapprove of?
Obviously, you didn’t read anything i wrote either. I never wrote i disapprove of Zionism. I just not for violence as a solution. Yes, the Arabs screamed “death to the Jews” and Jews with in Israel/around the world got paranoid. we’re good till here. If you refer back to my past comments, i simply “disapprove” of their foreign policy with Palestine and gave Gaza as an example.
Other than that, i actually said i understand/believe in the idealogy.
From what i understood, you were arguing that Judaism and Zionism are intertwined or something along that line…
If i am mistaken. please correct me.
What are you talking about? Israel’s non-Jewish minority is about 20% and they have citizens and voting rights. That’s how Democratic one can be. Where do you get the 50% and where did you hear that they don’t have voting rights or citizenship? I fear you might have been lied to.
Now, let’s talk about Syria’s Kurds…
Ok. We are on the same page up to this point.
So you want to say that Israel should either have left the borders open after the attacks and and never shoot back, allowing Hamas and the Gazans who wish to participate to kill as many Jews as they want, or should have reacted earlier and blown the thing to bits after the first attack.
I disagree with both alternatives. I find giving the Gazans a few years to decide whether they want war or not and then giving them what they want (and they voted for war) the most democratic solution.
I always thought that my enemy ought to decide whether there will be war while I decide who wins and who dies.
Judaism is a religion and culture that developed among Israelites and is based on the belief that Moses was a prophet of G-d and commanded the Israelites to live in the holy land (the Land of Israel). That’s the basis of Judaism; that’s what Judaism is.
The Quran tells that story in sura 17. That’s how important it is.
There can be Jews (i.e. members of a Judaean tribe of the people of Israel) who are not Zionists (and there are some), but there cannot be a Jewish religion without the belief that G-d commanded Israel to live in the holy land.
Zionism in its current form was just secular Jews implementing what Judaism was about. It works for religious, traditional, and secular Jews. But it is a fundamental part of Judaism.
From Wikipedia:
At the conclusion of the Yom Kippur service and the Passover Seder the words “Next Year in Jerusalem” are recited. When consoling a mourner, Jews recite “May God comfort you among all the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem.”
End quote.
Even the most vocal non-Zionist Jews still insist on living in Jerusalem. They are not opposed to a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel. They are opposed to the secular state which respects the rights of Jews and non-Jews alike (even if it isn’t perfect). But most Jews are not opposed to a secular Zionist state.
Curious…
AB tells it just right. I think Judaism is the only religion that is pretty much inseparable from a given location…the whole show was based on “the Land”.
Now…if you really want to complicate things…then you have to work out what God intended those borders to be…It think few people would argue, for example, that a huge piece of fairly UNdisputed territory (that the Palestinians pretty much concede) seems pretty clearly Palestinian territory by Biblical standards…an area from Gaza to almost Tel Aviv that would include Ashdod and Ashkelon.
Then…borders seem to include parts of southwest Lebanon and a good chunk of Syria/Jordan. And others would say the border goes all the way to the Eurphrates…
But no matter how you cut it…”the” land and Judaism are a package with tons of references throughout the Bible…especially to Jerusalem as the God’s personal hang-out.
Now…is Judaism a false religion…maybe. But I believe that would have then render Christianity and Islam false as well…exo-facto or de facto or however you put it.
For some reason, I don’t think I’m getting my point over. Than again i think I’ve been using the wrong terminology. So I’m going to explain how i see things:
1. Judaism is the religion
2. Zionism is the ideology
3. Israel is the states that is based upon the two.
I’m sure we’re good up to here.
I have no problem with 1 or 2. my problem is with 3’s “foreign policy” with Palestine. I’m not going to say what Hamas did was valid, I’m not justifying there actions. However, what i am going to say is that Israel reaction was well…”over” the top. Gaza is basically rubles at the moment, has no resources and no means of survival because of the blockage. Let me ask you this, how many Israel’s died compared to Gazans since December?
Brehm, here is a link
(http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/017.asp)
to Sura 17 in the Quran. I actually didn’t come across the Aya that you referred to. The Quran however mentions Bani-Israel (Sons of Israel) in Sura 02, starting from Aya 2:47. This may seem irrelevant, but as Muslims we have a commandment from Allah that states we must respect Bani-Israel for Allah has chosen them amongst others. Not to mention that fact that Jews are from the people of the book. This only proves that true Muslims (from a religious perspective) must respect and accept the people of the book.
One more thing, Wikipedia is not a valid source to refer to even though you make a point in you quote.
Howie,
Referring to the Torah and the Quran I’m good with. The bible is a bit iffy, its been altered to many times. Again this my personal preference.
Of course Wikipedia is a valid source. Why exactly would it not be?
Of course, anyone can edit the site. But then any random site on the Internet can be edited by random people; random from my point of view, that is.
Well, sort of.
Zionism is a part of Judaism (the religion). Zionism is also a secular ideology, but even as such it is based on Jewish history, which is again the basis for the Jewish religion.
3 is correct.
Gaza is much better off than Darfur or even parts of Egypt. I wouldn’t worry too much. The amount of aid that is flowing into Gaza at all times much exceeds the amoung of goods sent to almost all other “poor” places in the world.
Very few Israelis died because Israel _won_. That was the idea.
Gaza decides whether there will be war. Israel decides who will die in it. That’s the thing. It’s simply unlikely that Israel will decide “we” rather than “they”. One might hope that Gazans might decide “no” rather than “yes” when the question of war comes up.
Apparently what Israel does to Gazans is not worse than what Gazans think Hamas would do to them if they revolted.
I think Israel’s foreign policy of taking attacks for three years before responding violently is excellent if a bit underpowered.
Exactly. That Sure described what Jews (and Muslims) should believe about what G-d/Allah told the Jews.
Jews believe that they are supposed to live “securely” in the land of Israel and that G-d will take the land away from Jews occasionally when Jews lose their way. In that case a pagan (NOT a Muslim) army will come and take the land (and call it “Palestine”, even). But ultimately a true believer, a messiah, an anointed king, will bring the Jews back into the holy land.
Yes, this is how I read Islam as a religion. Hamas certainly “misunderstood” this part.
The question is, must a Muslim respect and accept the people of the book living in the land the book says they must live in?
An interesting document:
http://www.israellycool.com/2009/07/16/the-day-in-israel-thurs-july-16th-2009/
The Kurds! I knew it!
CuriousToo…
I don’t agree with your take on Gaza…but no..it is not all rubble…I have relatives that fought there…the rubble thing is propoganda…but yes there was a lot of damage…with relatively few deaths considering it was a guerilla style war with fighters blending in with the civilian population.
But on the main subject…again…there is religious Zionism and secular Zionism and they are QUITE different. Again…AB has this pretty well wired.
In any case…I certainly respect both your curiosity and intellectual honesty. Israel is FAR from perfect…but then the likes of the PLO, HAMAS, PLA, Hizbullah etc. have not been the easiest group of dudes to get along with either. They play very rough and very “unfairly”…what would you expect as a reaction?
Im a bit swamped AB but im going to reply soon…we are not done!!
one note though howie, I’m fascinated by Judaism/Zionism especially it’s role in Sudanese history. going as far back as the Mahdi era (late 20th century). Not to mention my immense respect to Israel as a nation. Even though most Arabs in the middle east wont agree to this but it’s a true democracy. something we unfortunately lack in the Arab world and Africa. Anyways, my curiosity. well…I’m a Sudanese living in lebanon and the Lebanese/Israeli situation is an issue that often comes up in discussions. so i have this urge to know everything there is to know. looking at both sides of the story. so any insight broadens my horizon.
oh and Wikipedia is not a valid source. anyone can write anything on it anytime. its hard to keep tab. i prefer solid sources. I’m just this on the long run it’s only useful when you want “idea” of something/someone… this has nothing to do with you quote though. you were trying to get a point over. so i get it.
That is true for all Web sites.
But in the case of Wikipedia the community can act if something is wrong. The Web site you referred to can be just as wrong as Wikipedia.
That’s true in any case.
That is very commendable.
I was a student in Haifa during the 2006 war.
If you are in Lebanon, you might be interested in this simple fact: we don’t want war with Lebanon. We like the Lebanese, except Hizbullah and some of your other groups. And you won’t find anyone in Israel who actually wants war with Lebanon.
Once we get Hizbullah to have the same attitude towards Israel as Israel has towards Lebanon, we can open the border again.
Curious…
Andrew is correct. In any case…Lebanon is barely a country…more like 3 countries in one…so when there is war with Lebanon…who are you really fighting…usually one group. For years it was just the Palestinians who were there launching rockets and Israel had no real hassle with Lebanon…Israel made a HUGE mistake in the early 1980’s so no doubt some of the tension now was Israel’s own fault. But even now…the hassle is with Hizbullah and not with the majority of the Lebanese people. Believe me…most Israelis would rather be running around the naked beaches around Beruit or playing in the casinos etc. then marching around getting shot at.
It is not a simple problem…especially with Lebanon which has been a proxy and battle ground for bigger players…Iran, Syria, PLO, etc. And Lebanon tends to kill each other at a much higher rate than Israeli’s kill Lebanese…And Lebanese have killed their share of Palestinians…including an attack on a camp about 2-3years ago or so.
So no…life and reality just do not line up into neat packages of the good guys and the bad guys and Israel is stuck with many very complex decisions that often mean life and death in a society where everything is debated and never agreed upon with any great consensus. Did you know that during the 82 Lebanon war…the streets were FILLED with anti-war protesters…most folks hated that war and did not support it after the first two weeks (when the goal was to push back the PLO)?
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