What, you didn’t know it was… erm… sort of mentioned? Well, here is the Quranic verse in question, in three different recognized English translations:
YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, “Dwell securely in the land (of promise)”: but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
Oh my, Islam supports Zionism? Find out here at this nice discussion and make up your own mind. As for me, this is my position:
FACT: Moses is a Prophet recognized and respected in Islam.
FACT: The story of how Moses led his people away from the Pharaoh’s oppression and into the “promised land” is one that is recognized and told in Islam.
FACT: Before the Kabba was cleansed of idols, Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem.
FACT: Based on the facts above, there is evidence that clearly indicates the inherent ties between the promised land and the Jewish people. However, there is no evidence indicating that the land is exclusively Jewish or exclusively meant for Jews.
Admittedly, the definition of “Jews” or “Jewish” in this context is still up for debate. Eat up the details here. Good stuff.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 70 comments… read them below or add one }
Admittedly, the definition of “Jews” or “Jewish” in this context is still up for debate
Contemporary Islam and contemporary Muslims have no problem defining Jews in any other context, notably not when we are being accused of all sorts of forms of evil. In fact, I doubt that many contemporary Muslims would even bother making a distinction between Jews and Israel (and its adherent alleged ‘crimes’, making Jews a target of hate around the Islamic world, simply due to their being Jews). So in what particular form of hypocrisy is the definition of Jews “in this context” admittedly open for debate?
“However, there is no evidence indicating that the land is exclusively Jewish or exclusively meant for Jews.”
Nor do the Zionists think it should be. The plan was to move the Jews into Israel, not to drive the Arabs out.There was plenty of unused land for the Zionists to live on.
The majority of the Arabs currently living in Israel seem to be quite pleased with their situation.
Really nice topic, i once asked myself the same thing while reading the Qu’ran … they are shown as gods people and all …
I really don’t get it then … if its their promised land even in our religion then wots is the fight for? can we arabs/muslims be wrong about the jews
Either way still supporting Palestine
“if its their promised land even in our religion then wots is the fight for?”
Nationalism. Greed. Power.
There are so many reasons.
“Nor do the Zionists think it should be.”
That’s the often-ignored point.
Israel’s enemies never mention that the Zionists didn’t want the Arabs to leave and did indeed offer them citizenship and equal rights to Jewish citizens.
If the anti-Zionist case were so strong, why is there a need to lie about that particular aspect of the Zionists’ plan?
I think Drima made a mistake in that.
“Admittedly, the definition of “Jews” or “Jewish” in this context is still up for debate”
- I think he meant “The definition of the Children of Israel in this context is still up for debate”, because the word “jew” are never actually meant in the verse.
I would recommend anyone with a genuine interrest to join the discussion and reading the whole debate through. Its long, but its worth it.
I wonder why Hamas or the PLO (or even Hizbullah) never quote the Quran on that.
I can see two possibilities if they did:
a) Muslims and non-Muslims worldwide would immediately see, as Ahmad did, that “children of Israel” doesn’t refer to Jews but to Muslims. Hence Hamas and the PLO would see even more support among Muslims since the Quran supports their struggle.
b) Muslims and non-Muslims will think that “children of Israel” means the same as it usually does, and reconsider their stance, if their faith is strong enough.
I don’t think that Hamas/Hizbullah/PLO or any of the other groups believe in assumption a).
Sometimes, the best way to find out what people really believe is to watch their actions.
To quote AB and build on it:
“Nor do the Zionists think it should be.”
I would add “nor is it nor was it ever”.
Plenty of Arabs AND other religions and peoples are doing quite well in Israel…thank you.
I have read that part of Quran. To me…it is the same old story…folks from ALL religions will often find convenient ways of interpreting their holy books to meet their own needs. I would argue that Jerusalem…for example, never shows up in the Quran. But heck…let’s pick on the Jews for a moment. “You shall not loan money to a fellow Jew (I think it says countryman) at interest”….Yet Israel has banks that are administered by Orthodox. But they don’t LOAN…they merely “invest”. But you see…investors are at risk. Business does well…you do well..business does poorly, you do poorly. They just collect interest…So nothing new there.
Muslim hatred of us and rejection of us is cynically driven politics along with the typical neighbor/border crap that happens between SCORES of peoples and countries.
Yes…I have read in the Quran about Jew behind a tree thing…so pick your poison when it comes to what the holy books REALLY tell us.
But a great topic
AB
“Sometimes, the best way to find out what people really believe is to watch their actions.”
I guess it is your day to be quoted.
It is off the subject a bit…but this is my number 1 problem with religion. I rarely see a correlation between religious belief and good behavior. It seems that good people who become or are religious do good things and bad people who are religious do bad things and find religious excuses for it.
Of course, there are many exceptions…but it greatly saddens me to see this manifest over and over.
Sad
I am still amazed at the English that comes out of Ahmed and RK and throw Drima in there. I speak two other languages besides English but couldn’t hold a candle to dudes like that. Just amazes me.
“I have read in the Quran about Jew behind a tree thing”
I thought that was in a Hadith?
This is well known that some of the Koran verses stipulate clearly and convensingly the land of Cannan as a land given to the children of Isreal (Benu-Israel) by Allah Almighty. I am surprised by the surprise of some blogers. It is a classic case of plagiarism from the old testament.
Unfortunately, as it is the case with delusional people, they would only choose the verses that suit their ideological and political views. The other that contradict the views are brushed aside. How convienent?
In the case of Hamas and major arab anti-Jewish propaganda, is the verses that had fallen from Allah that stipulate the killings of jews, or the hadiths that demonize the jewish people as hypocrites and scheamers. And the famous and shameful and despicable koranic sura that depicts jews as monkeys and swine.
How can any religion be called religion if it depicts any poeple like this. Oh I forgot it is the words of Allah. Then what sort of God is this? That does not make any sense. I can easily compare the depiction with Hitler’s Mein Kemf views of modern jews as blood suckers in their world wide financial network hegemony or the famous Goebel’s SS propaganda film “the eternal Jew” depicting the jewish poeple as rats and vermin.
The tree calling a Muslim to kill a jew who is hidding behind it, it is in one hadith, it is not in the Koran.
“let’s pick on the Jews for a moment. “You shall not loan money to a fellow Jew (I think it says countryman) at interest”….Yet Israel has banks that are administered by Orthodox.”
Yes. However, Israel didn’t make it its raison d’etre to enforce the opposite of “don’t loan money at interest” and most Jews would probably hope that we lived in a world where such mechanisms as loaning wouldn’t be needed.
I agree that the loan thing is stretching the law, perhaps breaking it (although it is a stupid law).
But that’s not the same as reading that X has a right to live in Y, concluding from that that X must not live in Y, or even that X must not be allowed to live at all, especially in Y.
There is quote of the Hadith regarding the tree example, I forgot there is also a “talking” rock too: (Amazing)
following hadith, that is, a tradition attributed to Muhammad:
“The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”43
“It is a classic case of plagiarism from the old testament.”
Whatever it is, it does prove that “Israel” existed in connection with that land before 1948.
“the famous and shameful and despicable koranic sura that depicts jews as monkeys and swine.”
Actually, that’s a bit more complicated:
http://eteraz.wordpress.com/2006/07/21/jews-as-apes-and-swine/
Complicated NOT.
By simply showing what other individuals tried and tried to rescue the depiction of jews in more light hearted (as the case of Assad adding the word “as” before monkeys to be read “as monkeys”) is really laughable if not silly game of scrable like rescue. If Assad or you Andrew beleive by adding “as” somehow changes the tone of the depiction then good for you.
Zaki,
You are a bit pig-headed, aren’t you? I respect how you fight like a lion for your opinions.
Well I do not know about this swine-headed stigma to attached on me. My point is that you are adding nothing to the discussion. Sending a link about the monkey and swine and jews thing and saying it is more complicated this. What do you mean it is more complicate than this?
Can’t you write a bit more to express yourself, or say something about WHY and HOW is more complicated. You are a trully a good reductionist.
Zaki and AB…
Funny watching a couple of swines and apes argue
Yours Truly
Howie the Ape
“My point is that you are adding nothing to the discussion.”
Might have gone over your head.
I sent you a link to an article that explains why it is more complicated and gave you an example of how English also uses comparisons with animals to make a point.
“Pig-headed” isn’t usually read to mean anything swine-related. And “fighting like a lion” is really not meant to say that the subject _is_ a lion.
I assume Arabic works similarly.
Unfortunately You are not a debator and yet you failed to come up with one clear evidence The Land of Palestine belongs to Jews or Israel…
Sir, niether the Quran nor any other holy book says that Palestine is the land of Israel… and again Quran chapter 17:100-104 has never mentioned that…
and since you believe in Quran, the following is also from the Quran:
وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ يَدُ اللَّهِ مَغْلُولَةٌ غُلَّتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَلُعِنُواْ بِمَا قَالُواْ بَلْ يَدَاهُ مَبْسُوطَتَانِ يُنفِقُ كَيْفَ يَشَآءُ كُلَّمَآ أَوْقَدُواْ نَاراً لِّلْحَرْبِ أَطْفَأَهَا اللَّهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً وَاللَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُفْسِدِينَ } [المائدة:64].
Translated: 5:64 And the Jews said: “The hand of God is tied-down!” Their hands will be tied-down, and they will be cursed for what they have said. No, His hands are wide open spending as He wills. And for many of them, what has been sent down to you will increase them in rebellion and rejection; and We have cast between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the fire of war, God puts it out; and they seek to make corruption in the land; and God does not like the corrupters.
AND GOD DOES NOT LIKE THE CORRUPTERS… anyone can answer me: How God almighty can give the Right of Property to bunch of Corrupters..
Sir, This ownership does only exist in you racist brain!
4:155 So, for the breaking of their covenant, and their rejection of God’s signs, and their killing of the prophets without justice, and their saying: “Our hearts are layered over.” Indeed, God has stamped upon their hearts because of their rejection; they do not believe, except for a few”
How come that who murder God almighty Messenger and Prophets are given any right over the Holy land… but I hope that you will be one of those few believers
The Holy Quran also mentioned that you have no wisdom………
59:14 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves: thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
Believe me If you put down you weapons and offer a true peace to Muslim and Arab after admitting your sins, mistakes, and slips. We Arab, Muslims will forgive for whatever you have done. Even The Arab Christian may forgive for killing The beloved the messenger of mercy Jessus.
Change before it’s too late
Peace
The above is dedicated to the called “Andrew Brehm”
Ponder…
“Believe me If you put down you weapons and offer a true peace to Muslim and Arab after admitting your sins, mistakes, and slips. We Arab, Muslims will forgive for whatever you have done. Even The Arab Christian may forgive for killing The beloved the messenger of mercy Jessus.”
You left out us apologizing for using your kids blood for our matzah and controlling the world economy.
AB…we should apologize for killing Jessus or is it Jezzus? Or is it Geez US? OK…I apologize…I did it…I admit it.
Anyone want to come over and celebrate my 1,941st birthday with me next week?
Ponder,
Oh boy are you an evil little bugger.
People like you are the reason Israel needs such a powerful army! Without people like you, there would be peace in the world.
“Believe me If you put down you weapons and offer a true peace”
Let’s not forget that Israel already did that, in 1948.
The Arabs attacked.
Then Israel, again, offered to put down its weapons and offered peace in 1968.
The Arabs rejected it.
So who else believes that Ponder is lying?
“AB…we should apologize for killing Jessus or is it Jezzus? Or is it Geez US? OK…I apologize…I did it…I admit it.”
That was you?
Oh boy oh boy oh boy.
(Actually, it was the Romans who killed a Jew. Not that that was surprising, since Jesus was a Jewish leader. He wasn’t the first or the last Jewish leader the Romans killed. Of course, after they killed Jesus, the Romans renamed Israel “Palestine”. And Israel’s enemies call it “Palestine” as the Romans wished ever since.)
Ponder:
“that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.”
Let’s make a list of what we Jews have accomplished for the world over the past 200 years…an average of about 14 million…then let’s talk about y’all…
Your remarks are out of context, racist, ignorant and I think an embarrassment to you religion and whatever or whomever you are trying to represent.
One more angry guy who speaks from hatred instead of with his mind…contributing nothing to the original question.
AB…
I typically agree with you, but have to take you to task on this one:
1. I am NOT Italian
2. I am American of Pollack and Ukranian descent
3. I have confessed…so don’t try to rewrite history…it was not the JEWS who killed Jessssus…it was one…me, I admit it…I have been living with the guilt for nearly 2,000 years. I am an old man now…let me die in peace (though my doctor says aside from a little acid and constipation…I’m healthy like a horse and could live long enough to polish off a few more messiahs yet, though it is hard for me to lift hammers lately because of some brusitis in the shoulder)
I have stated two critical points but you ignored them and this is a sign that you have no wisdom!!!
“that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.”
These are God words yet i believe on them…. Again: here is the complete verse:
59:14 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves: thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
So if you (Jews) dare to kill prophets and messenger, you can easily and with no mercy kill those innocent pathetic Palestinians
وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ يَدُ اللَّهِ مَغْلُولَةٌ غُلَّتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَلُعِنُواْ بِمَا قَالُواْ بَلْ يَدَاهُ مَبْسُوطَتَانِ يُنفِقُ كَيْفَ يَشَآءُ كُلَّمَآ أَوْقَدُواْ نَاراً لِّلْحَرْبِ أَطْفَأَهَا اللَّهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً وَاللَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُفْسِدِينَ } [المائدة:64].
Translated: 5:64 And the Jews said: “The hand of God is tied-down!” Their hands will be tied-down, and they will be cursed for what they have said. No, His hands are wide open spending as He wills. And for many of them, what has been sent down to you will increase them in rebellion and rejection; and We have cast between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the fire of war, God puts it out; and they seek to make corruption in the land; and God does not like the corrupters.
AND GOD DOES NOT LIKE THE CORRUPTERS… can anyone answer me: How God almighty can give the Right of Property to bunch of Corrupters..
All participants in this discussion are invited to relax and “IMAGINE THE WORLD WITHOUT ISRAEL”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/7/12/214150/522
All participants in this discussion are invited to relax and “IMAGINE THE WORLD WITHOUT PONDER”
Ponder THIS suckah
“that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.”
http://hometown.aol.com/gjadoc/index.html
:0
Oh Ponder…
About 40 Nobel Prize winners in Science and Medicine ALONE…
But yes…now that I think of it…I AM devoid of wisdom…I am trying to have an intelligent conversation with you…
You win!!
“1. I am NOT Italian”
What??? And I kept talking to you! Unbelievable!
“2. I am American of Pollack and Ukrainian descent”
Now you are telling me! I thought you were Italian.
“3. I have confessed…so don’t try to rewrite history…”
Oh, really? You are not even Italian, so don’t tell me what to do or not to do!
Howie,
Jews are not a people of the book, they are a people of many books.
Andrew, we’ve been over this plenty of times, and i cannot understand why you keep circulating that claim of yours. The term “Palestine” dates further back than the romans, and has nothing to do with hating the jews in popular usage. Israel, as a state, were destroyed long before the Romans even became an empire. The term “Palestine” is derived from the people of Filistea, a greek people living in what is today Gaza. It depends completely about the intention behind naming the country. When an arab calls Saudi Arabia by that name (As-S3oudeya) it is not an approval of the House of Saud, rather it is referring to the land in a manner so that people will know what you are talking about when speaking Arabic. Even staunch opponents of the Saudi royal family will say things like “Makkah is situated in Saudi Arabia”, even though the phrase “Makkah is situated in Arabia” works as well. That’s simply common usage. Has nothing to to with approval of the House of Saud. Likewise, when referring to “Israel” as “Palestine”, it can as well be just referring to a geographical area that is known as such in Arabic. Israel is the name of a state, not a geographical area, and i believe that this is the most common usage in English as well. Rarely is the area, when speaking strictly geographical, mentioned as Israel. Things only get complicated when refusing to call the STATE situated in that area by the name of Israel, and even in these terms, it is only refusal of recognizing the state for political reasons, most people do not even know about the etymology for the term, but associates it with Arab superiority with regards to the right of ruling the area - not at all anti-semitism and not at all associating the term with Romans.
I doubt that any person refusing to call the State of Israel by its name is thinking: “Hey, lets follow the Romans in degrating the jews and taking away their rights”.
If one is into linguistics, then it becomes obvious that many places are named in such fashion. Thus, a group of muslims of arab descent in Sri Lanka is named “moros”, named as such by portuguese sailors that referred to all muslims as such, often degratory. It has nothing to do with the Moors of Spain and Northwest Africa. However, when ethnologues refer to them as “Moros”, it has nothing to to with anti-muslims sentiments, nor has it anything to do with them being dark-skinned (Moro derives from greek Mauros meaning black or very dark). Thats simply what they are most commonly called. The same is true for the muslims of the Philippines.
Ponder:
Islam also states that one is only responsible for their own acts, so there is no jew alive that you can blame for the attemp to kill Isa (as), and also they did not kill Isa (as) according to Islam. Sins cannot be inherited in islamic sharia.
“Andrew, we’ve been over this plenty of times, and i cannot understand why you keep circulating that claim of yours.”
What? But that’s easy. It’s because you haven’t convinced me and I disagree with you.
“The term “Palestine” dates further back than the romans, and has nothing to do with hating the jews in popular usage.”
Actually, you are half-right.
The term “Philistine” is older. It was the name of a (presumably Greek) tribe settling in Gaza.
However, it was the Romans who applied that name to Israel and it was done to erase the land’s connection with G-d and the People of Israel.
In popular usage the term has a lot to do with hating Jews. Show me one anti-Semitic group that doesn’t use the word “Palestine” to refer to the land of Israel!
Do you see me refer to parts of Poland as “Prussia” despite the fact that it is now (and used to be in the past) Poland? I suppose you don’t. But I know right-wing Germans who still haven’t accepted that “Prussia” is Polish again.
I think a more appropriate name for the region of Mecca and Medina is “Hejaz”.
I myself try not to say “Saudi-Arabia” when I speak of the location (and not the state).
Guess what. I don’t like the Saudi dictatorship and would like to see the Hashemites rule the Hejaz again.
I oppose calling the Muslim holy land “Saudi-Arabia” for the same reason as I oppose calling the Jewish holy land “Palestine”.
Hejaz is the holy land designated as such by (probably) Abraham and certainly Muhammed (who for all I care could have been a prophet sent to the Arabs).
Naming his holy land after a corrupt and thieving family seems insulting to me; just as insulting as naming the Land of Israel, designated as the land for the Children of Israel by both Bible and Quran, “Palestine” after the pagan Roman name given to it to disconnect it from the People of Israel and G-d.
The fact that the Saudis call Hejaz part of “Saudi-Arabia” and Israel “Palestine” tells me enough to want to refer to both of them by other names.
I cannot understand why Muslims world-wide allowed the Wahabis to take over Muslim holy sites.
I think the Saudis should give back the land they stole and rename their original land to something more humble, like “Najd”. I mean, who names their kingdom after themselves??? Shouldn’t Muslims me more humble than that?
s/me more/be more/
“I doubt that any person refusing to call the State of Israel by its name is thinking: “Hey, lets follow the Romans in degrating the jews and taking away their rights”.”
They probably don’t know about the Romans (people who degrade Jews are often not clever enough to know history), but they DO call it “Palestine” to show their opposition to a Jewish state.
You will often find that those same people cry about Arab refugees (but would not lift a finger to help them) but do not shed a tear over Jewish refugees (IF they even acknowledge their existence or the possibility of Jewish refugees having any relevance at all), see no problems in burning Star-of-David flags or other Jewish symbols, or show “solidarity” with the “Palestinian cause”, despite the fact that the “Palestinian cause” has in the past and today included the idea of murdering Jews and/or driving them out of “Arab” territory (which would make the Arab world Jew-free, except for Morocco and the 30 Jews of Bahrain, I suppose).
Do you think the people who burn down synagogues in Europe call the land “Israel” rather than “Palestine”?
The entire Palestinian case, for both the name and the (Arab) people, would be a lot better if it hadn’t included pacts with the Nazis, attacks on Jews and the state of Israel, calls for the death of all Jews, and supporters around the world who blame the Jews for everything.
But then without those things Arab Palestinians would simply have lived in peace in the three Palestinian (the region) states, and there wouldn’t be a conflict, and Israel would never have occupied anything, and anti-Semites would have to find something else to blame Jews for. (Not that there is a lack of fantasy crimes the Jews could have committed. The stories of today circulated in the 19th century as well.)
But if “Palestine” be the word for the region, that, I guess, is fine with me too. But it does mean that people like Ponder will have to accept that “Israel” is indeed a country that has always existed in that region, even if it was occasionally occupied by other powers; and the PLO state, if they ever decide to found it (they should have in 1948, I think), will need a nice new name, since it will not be “Palestine”, the state, but one of the three states founded in the region Palestine.
So what will it be?
Is Palestine the name of the region or the name of a (future) state?
If both, then I suggest Israel is also both a name of the region and the name of a state.
If a name of the region, I will be happy to announce that I believe that Israel is a state located in the region of Palestine.
If a name of a state, I will be wondering what we should call the region.
The last legal entity before the founding of Israel was the British territory; and that was called “Palestine (Land of Israel”) as I could see on bank notes shown to me by Arabs in East-Jerusalem.
So perhaps the names are equivalent, except that one is the name given to the land by G-d, and the other is the name given to the land by the pagans.
But I haven’t met many people who called the land “Palestine” without trying to make the same point the Romans tried to make.
So I hope you don’t mind if I continue to call it Israel. The word was good enough for the Bible and the Quran, it’s good enough for me.
“Islam also states that one is only responsible for their own acts, so there is no jew alive that you can blame for the attemp to kill Isa (as),”
How many times do I have to repeat myself…He CAN blame me…I was there…really…
I am old now…tired…
Need my nap ah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Slam Ahmed “they did not kill Isa (as) according to Islam.” but this what my christian brothers believe.
“Sins cannot be inherited in islamic sharia” Yes, to some extend. Take Prostituation as an example!
Again Ahmed, I am not talking to Muslims!!!! unless Andrew with Howie submit()
“Sins cannot be inherited in islamic sharia.” Yes, to some extend. but their defects will remain (Take Adultery as an example)untill you seek true forgiveness and I believe you (As a muslim) know the Terms of Forgiveness!
Howie “How many times do I have to repeat myself…He CAN blame me…I was there…really…”
Ok. we accept that…. SO There is still a chance to seek forgiveness:
If you beleive Jesus is a God:
To receive forgiveness from God there are three requirements:
1.Recognizing the offense itself and its admission before God.
2.Making a commitment not to repeat the offense.
3.Asking for forgiveness from God.
If the offense was committed against another human being (Palestinian), or against society(Palestine, and US as well because you dragged then into a war Hatred), a fourth condition is added:
1. Recognizing the offense before those against whom offense was committed and before God.
2. Committing oneself not to repeat the offense.
3. Doing whatever needs to be done to RECTIFY the offense (within reason) and asking pardon of the offended party.
4. Asking God for forgiveness.
So Sir, are willing to seek forgivenes?
Slam Ahmed “they did not kill Isa (as) according to Islam.” but this what my christian brothers believe.
Only those among your Christian brothers who are dumb, I’m afraid. Or who are looking for a reason to bash Jews.
Yes, to some extend. Take Prostituation as an example!
So you extend the definition of a bastard child to… pretty much anything now? Isn’t twisting religion for political reasons fun?
Again Ahmed, I am not talking to Muslims!!!! unless Andrew with Howie submit()
So what system are you applying to us, exactly? The Ponder System of Superiority Complex And Forced Conversion?
Ok. we accept that….
… I don’t think he got the joke, Howie. It just went waaaay over his head.
If you beleive Jesus is a God:
To receive forgiveness from God there are three requirements:
1.Recognizing the offense itself and its admission before God.
2.Making a commitment not to repeat the offense.
3.Asking for forgiveness from God.
If the offense was committed against another human being (Palestinian), or against society(Palestine, and US as well because you dragged then into a war Hatred), a fourth condition is added:
1. Recognizing the offense before those against whom offense was committed and before God.
2. Committing oneself not to repeat the offense.
3. Doing whatever needs to be done to RECTIFY the offense (within reason) and asking pardon of the offended party.
4. Asking God for forgiveness.
So Sir, are willing to seek forgivenes?
My, oh my… My, my, my, oh my… Tsk, tsk, tsk. Well, Howie, you better do what Ponder says, otherwise you’ll go to HELL. Ask Ponder, he knows about this sort of thing. Allah seems to be whispering right into his ear, after all. Or someone is, anyway.
*sigh* We lived through times when delusional and, frankly, fanatical people like you held sway over us, Ponder. We lived through the torture of the Inquisition and the massacres of the Almuhadeen, each telling us time and time again that it was *our* fault that they were forcing us to convert and murdering us. Really, it was. It was our fault for killing Jesus and not converting to his True Faith, or our fault for not recognizing the Truth of the Qu’ran.. Or maybe it’s just all our fault for looking at people the wrong way, making peoples’ fists itch.
We survived them. We’ll survive idiots like you.
Ponder:
“2. Committing oneself not to repeat the offense.”
I am cool with 1 and 3….but I wanna kill him a few more times…hammer swinging keeps my arm in shape…
I am enjoying this but I am busy right now and Allah willing I will get back soon…
“So what system are you applying to us, exactly? The Ponder System of Superiority Complex And Forced Conversion?” No The System of the one that has promised The Jew NO Land because they became corrputers! and God doesn’t like corrupters. Chapter 5:64
“We’ll survive idiots like you.” Thanks Sir, but the idiot is the one that can understand his own Bible!!!!????????????
am cool with 1 and 3….but I wanna kill him a few more times…hammer swinging keeps my arm in shape… I believe you dare to do it
Ponder-
I have a couple of questions..Given your narrow robotic thinking…I know I won’t get an honest response…or NO response…but at least others here will see you hipocracsy…the same hipocrascy I see in many Muslims…
Ponder…You care SO deeply about the Palestinians…why? I assume because they are your Muslim brothers and oppressed…yes?
OK…
1. What about the people of Darfur? Who have been killed and raped and tortured for years with to the sounds of a silent Muslim world.
2. Why, in general, has the Muslim world kissed Russian ASS. Why? Are they not the greatest oppressors of Muslims since the Crusades (which, by the way, I view as a European counterattack to Islamic imperialism). The Russians who utterly oppressed every “stan” in Central Asia, who would have taken Iran if it were not for the intervention of the Brits and the Great Satan in 1947.
3. And Muslims slaughter Muslims and a MUCH higher rate than anything that has happened in Israel…there is NO comparsion; Iran-Iraq alone added up to ONE MILLION dead Muslims…oh…I know…the USA and Israel were behind that right. And then there is Alergia, Yemen, Iraq-Kuwait, Iraq-Kurdistan…and now Chechneya has sold out its own people but you don’t give a fuck…do you. Because all you care about is hating Jews.
4. Refugees? What about Tibetians? What about Vietnamese who still live in tents around Hong Kong since the 1970’s? Fuck them…right Ponder?
Well…let’s see if you have the courage to make an honest response…but it will either be a non-response or a bunch of blaming cliches and denial because all you care about is Jews finally said, “fuck you, you want to fight? Then we are going fight”. And we won and won again and again and that is the BIG SHAME of the Arab world. Well…Ponder…the Arabs have far more to be ashamed of…let’s just start with Darfur
And funny…Iran is still licking Russia’s boots…on their hands and knees licking their boots.
Hipocrite
Damn I could never spell that word.
Ponder, PLEASE, I beg you, stop embarrassing yourself!
Before you get my response, you must answer the following question:
Howie “others here will see you hipocracsy”
Tell me, which part of what I said is hipocracsy? Challenge
Drima: “Ponder, PLEASE, I beg you, stop embarrassing yourself!” Maybe I will sign in with defferent name and …. !)…
and btw, You got nothing to lose if I continue embarrasing my self because This what makes your blog interesting then you have alots of traffic, and thus generating more income which is the main reason (According to me) behind establishing this forum
Ponder…
Actually…though you are so wrong in so many areas…I do hope you keep hanging around here…for once I am not being sarcastic..
Back to business…
As I predicted…you avoided my question by merely posing a question.
Not really, But I want to know which part show my hipocracsy so I can seek forgiveness!
So tell me and I will answer all you questions in a very polite and mature way!!
Ponder;
In this case…”your” hipocracsy is more of an editorial or universal “you” as in many Muslims…especially Arabs.
I hear the “poor Palestinian” refrain over and over and how terrible the Jews are for beating up on them. This seems to be an utter obessesion yet a nearly utterly blind eye to all the far more deadly and FAR more critical issues I have noted above.
Overall, the Muslim world, especially the Arab world…and here comes the cliche…hates Jews FAR more than they care about their own people.
If this was Russia pounding a few Palestinians…hardly a peep would be heard and most of you would still be licking there boots, that sit firmly on your necks (though Sudan is busy licking the boots of another Islam oppressor, China…not to mention just a human rights abuser of the first degree in general)you would still be licking their boots.
And please tell me about Americans “uneven foreign policy”!!! FUNNY…Let’s hear about the eveness of the foreign policy of; Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Saudia…FUNNY!! Yes…American please treat the people well that hate you, don’t share your value system, abuse most of what you stand for…yes that makes sense…Be fair in your policies like Russian and China and maybe we will lick your boots to…
OK…that is why you are utterly and completely a hipocrate…
And I know my words will have no affect on you, but this is more meant for others who may be more concerned with truth than rhetoric.
Sir,
because I know you are not a genius (), I have not attemptted to ask a tough question…
You said I am Hypocrite, so Tell me, which part of what I said is Hypocrisy.
and please stop talking about Russian or Chinese because the issue was Jew right in Palestine…. and all of you falied to bring a single evidence….
Answer my questions…I will answer your’s.
Ponder why waste you time and effort with two mentally retarded people who refuse to accept the truth when it is even broken down for them. It’s like going around the same circle constantly. Jews invaded the home of Palestinians who are the real children of Israel (jews r 2 selfish to share). Hitler should have got rid of them when he had the chance! Innocent Muslims have been killed by these terrorists because of their selfishness and fear of Islam (those who hate peace, fear Islam). Ok so its my opinion, but i am entitled to it and will dam well have it KNOWN.
Hey everyone,
Let’s not divert the discussion into a religious battle. The name Israel is another name for the biblical/quranic prophet Jacob.
The children of Israel are the children of Jacob, who comprise the Israelites and the Israeli tribes ( Joseph & his eleven brothers).
Israel is a name given in the Old Testament to Jacob and to the nation the hebrews founded in CANAAN.
Jacob was renamed Israel after he had wrestled with the mysterious ‘man’ who was either an angel or God Himself (Genesis 32: 28). As a geographical name, Israel at first applied to the whole territory of Canaan captured or occupied by the Hebrews after the Exodus from Egypt. This territory united as a kingdom under David in the early 10th century bc, with its capital at Jerusalem. Following the death of David’s son, Solomon, the ten northern tribes seceded and the name Israel thereafter applied to the kingdom they founded in n Palestine; the remaining two tribes held the southern kingdom of Judah.
Source: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O142-Judah.html
Palestine as a geographical term long preceded the term Israel as an indication to the geographical area between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Considering historical reference, the term Israel did not exist until the birth of Jacob, where as Palestine was given to the Canaanites , who are the indigenous people of the area.
There’s no need to disrespect one another. No man is superior nor inferior to another… be it a christian, a jew or a muslim.
Kushman,
The name “Palestine” means “Invaderland” in the Canaanite language. I seriously doubt that the Canaanites called themselves “invaders”. The land was known as “Canaan” (”Lowland”) first, then Israel. Only the Romans renamed it “Palestine” to insult the Jews and disconnect the land from G-d.
The Romans named it after Greek settlers who lived at the cost (around Gaza). Those settlers were called “Philistines” (”invaders”) by the locals (Canaanites and Israelites).
Your claim that “Palestine” as a geographical term preceding the term “Israel” has no basis in history and makes no sense linguistically.
The Canaanites eventually merged with the Israelites, which is why Israelites speak a Canaanite language (Hebrew, which is close to Phoenician). Hebrew is the only remaining Canaanite language. The opposite language is Aramaic, the language of “Aram”, which translated as “Highland” (from “ram” = “height”). You are correct that the Canaanites are the indigenous people of the area. And there are two surviving populations descending from them: the Jews (and associated tribes) and the Maronites in Lebanon. The first have preserved their Canaanite language over the millenia.
David did not found a kingdom in “Palestine”, he founded a kingdom in Canaan. The state exists again today and its population speak their Canaanite language. Today’s “Palestinians” are Arabs, not Canaanites.
If you are so eager for the rights of indigenous people, here’s a list of middle-eastern indigenous peoples and where they are indigenous:
Arabs - Arabia
Aramaeans/Chaldeans/Assyrians - Aram (Syria and northern Iraq)
Imazighen - “Arab” Maghreb
Kurds - Kurdistan (northern Syria and eastern Iraq)
Nilo-Saharan peoples - Sudan
Kopts - Egypt
Jews - Israel (southern Canaan)
Phoenicians (Maronites) - Lebanon (northern Canaan)
Canaanites also had colonies in West-Africa (Carthago = “Qart Hadasht” = “New City” in Phoenician) and Spain (Cartagena, also “Qart Hadasht”).
You might know of Hannibal, who lost the second Punic war against the Romans. In the third war, the Romans eliminated the Canaanites in Carthago and Spain and their cities were destroyed.
For a speaker of modern Hebrew, all those names sound very familiar. “Qart Hadasht” is “Qiryat Hadasha” in Hebrew, and “Hannibal” means in Hebrew what it means in Phoenician: “The Grace of Baal” (”Baal” being the city god of Tyr; the word means “master” or “husband” in Hebrew and “lord” originally).
For the longest time the Phoenicians (Canaanites) served as the Persian empire’s navy. That was the same Persian empire that rebuilt the Temple in Jerusalem and allowed the Jews to go back to Israel.
Andrew Brehm,
First of all, I’m glad that you responded to me in a very fast fashion, which I highly appreciate. Before we engage in any type of discussion, let us agree on having a respectful/subjective discussion, rather than having a ladened dogmatic argument. I will only use biblical/quranic verses and sources to draw the chronological orders of each term and event.
First of all, the term ‘Canaan’ came from the son of Hem (Gen. 10:6), whose descendants were under a curse in consequences of the transgression of his father according to the Old Testament (9:22-27), which I highly refuse and disagree with since it laid the foundation of racism and gave classism a biblical legitimacy. However, I will just point out to you that there was an animosity and despise and rivalry from the Jews toward Canaanites. Second of all, Judah is the son of Jacob and Leah (Gen. 29:35), who forebear one of the tribes of Israel and as I mentioned above Israel was another name for Jacob. Again, before Israel was born, the terms ‘Israel’ and ‘Israelites’ did not exist. We can deduce that Canaan existed in the region long before Jacob ( Israel) and his off-spring came to life. Therefore, the assumption that the Israelis were contemporaries to the Canaanites is false.
Let me point out some of your false linguistic claims as you quoted above, ” Hebrew is the only remaining Canaanite language. ”
On the contrary, Hebrew is not a Canaanite language; Hebrew is a Semitic language. Hence, the term Anti-semitic, which sometimes I found laughable especially when the accused are the Arabs of being anti-Semitic. The most widely spoken Semitic language today is Arabic in the Arab world (approx. 422 million speakers), Amharic in Ethiopia( 27 million) and Tigrinya in Eritrea (about 6.7 million speakers) and the last and the least spoken Semitic language is Hebrew (about only 5 million speak it).
In short, Sam the son of Noah, whom the Old Testament highly praised, is where the Semitic languages derived from. Nonetheless, Canaan is the son of Ham and the Canaanite language is definitely a Hematic language. I really can not figure out how you came to a conclusion that Hebrew is the only remaining Canaanite language !!!!
One more thing, Palestine derived from Philistine and Philistine derived from Philistia, which mean the land of wanderers and strangers, but not as you claimed the land of Invaders. Here’s the definition from the dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philistia?qsrc=2888
Kushman,
Canaanite languages are a subgroup of Semitic languages. I fear that if you don’t know this, you might not be able to understand any of my linguistic points.
Canaanite languages are named after the region, not the Biblical character. Semitic languages are named after the character.
If you look at a Phoenician (Canaanite) text you will see that it is almost Hebrew.
As I said Canaan did exist before Israel. My point was that “Palestine” (”Invaderland”) did not. In no way did I diminish the Canaanite claim to the land which is why I mentioned the Maronites, some of whom see themselves as the heirs of the Phoenicians, a claim I will happily acknowldge as true. (But those same Maronites have no problem with southern Canaan being Israel.)
Yes, there was a rivalry between Canaanites and Israelites as there was a rivalry between both those peoples and the Greek invaders (”Philistines”, after the Canaanite/Hebrew word for “invaders”). But the Canaanite and Israelite populations eventually merged.
But none of that has anything to do with Arabs or today’s “Palestinians”, who see themselves as Arabs and speak Arabic. The Arabs were a distinct group and lived in Arabia. Linguistically, the word “Arab” derives from Akkadian (and other Semitic languages) for “evening” or “south-west” (i.e. where the sun went down, root 3RB Ayin Resh Bet, also Ghayin Resh Bet for “west”) and “Arabia” was the steppe south-west of Babylon. They have nothing to do with Canaan or Aram except for the fact that they once invaded it, like so many have.
The root KN3 (Kaf Nun Ayin) in Semitic languages (including Canaanite languages) means “down”. In Hebrew you can form the causative infinitive “lehakani3″ which means “to subdue” (i.e. “to cause to be down”). Then there is the root RM (Resh Mem) for “high”, which you find in the word “Aram” which means “highlands”. This is where the Aramaeans live in the hills away from the Mediterranean. And finally there is the root 3BR (Ayin Bet Resh) for “cross over” for a people that moved from Aram towards Canaan 4000 years ago. Those where the “Hebrews” and later the “Israelites”. But 3000 years ago they had already merged with the Canaanites and adopted their language.
The Arabs or today’s “Palestinians” have nothing to do with it. They came to Canaan much later and ruled it for 200 years or so before losing it to crusader kingdoms, Kurds, and finally Turks. And today’s “Palestinians” are not Canaanites (they are Arabs) and the original “Philistines” were probably not Canaanites either (they were most likely Greeks).
And that is why Phoenician words seem very familiar to Hebrew speakers.
Just face it, today’s Israel is inhabited by Canaanites who speak a Canaanite language. And today’s “Palestinians”, aptly referring to themselves with the Canaanite word for “invader” are Arabs, who speak Arabic.
(And the assumption that Israelites were contemporaries with the Canaanites is only false if you don’t believe that pure Canaanites still existed 3000 years ago. But they did. Their golden age was 2500 years ago until the Romans destroyed Carthago. By that time the Israelites had already settled the land of Israel and the two peoples in the south of Canaan had become one, winning a war with the Philistines and finally outliving both the Philistine and the remaining pure Canaanite cultures.)
“the Canaanite language is definitely a Hamitic language. I really can not figure out how you came to a conclusion that Hebrew is the only remaining Canaanite language”
Canaanite is not a Hamitic language. It’s clearly on the L side of the R/L consonant shift between the two groups. (Canaanite for “learn” is Lamed Mem Dalet, Hamitic for “learn” is Resh Mem Dalet”.)
Hamitic languages, perhaps you want to include Egyptian, are spoken in north Africa, where it is hotter than in Israel and Canaan (hence “ham” which is Hebrew and Phoenician for “hot”.)
I came to the conclusion simply by reading modern linguistics and the simple fact that I can understand Phoenician (Canaanite) words but not Egyptian words. That demonstrates to me that Phoenician is closer to Hebrew than to Egyptian.
The thing about Philisitine you say I have already said in my comment. The translation as “stranger” is possible, but the root means “invader” in Canaanite languages. Either way, the “Philistines” were strangers to the region, not Canaanites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_languages
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