An interesting a piece by SLM’s head Abdul Wahid Al-Nur, published at the Wall Street Journal. He makes it utterly clear that in SLM’s eyes the only way forward is to eradicate the current regime.
It is inconceivable that the racist, Islamo-fascist regime in Khartoum can reform itself. It must disappear. Did the world ever attempt to “reform” the Nazi regime?
We must prevail to preserve the unity of Sudan. In a truly democratic and secular Sudan, neither the South, nor Darfur, nor any other region would be tempted to secede. We must prevail to eliminate the presence of terrorist groups, such as al Qaeda and Hamas, which are guests of the regime in Khartoum. We must prevail to stabilize the region and spread democracy.
We must prevail to help Sudan return to its natural, legitimate geopolitical place — which is the African continent and not the Arab or Muslim world. At the same time, we must forge new alliances, no longer based upon race or religion, but upon shared values of freedom and democracy. This is why we opened a representative office in Israel last February.
We know we can prevail over a regime which, despite its appearances, is weak. We are well-organized and increasingly popular throughout the country. With the help of those who share our values and cherish freedom, victory is within reach.
His article is cleverly written for an American audience. Some parts of it are not factual but merely designed to gather more support for SLM. On top of that, he leaves some questions unanswered. Overall though, it certainly is an interesting piece.
There is more to comment on. Hopefully I’ll do it later if I have time.
(hat tip: Sigmund, Carl and Alfred)
UPDATE:
1. Terrorists aren’t guests of this regime anymore really, at least not in the sense that it harbors them (Hamas people do drop by from time to time and the government is lenient about it). Today, the regime’s focus is investment, investment and more investment. Terrorists are bad for business. Plus, keep in mind the heavy cooperation between the CIA and the Sudanese intelligence.
2. Most Sudanese are Muslims and most speak Arabic. Reversing what happened is the equivalent of saying ludicrous things like “the United States should go back to its natural state which was Indian and not white.” It’s been hundreds of years already. Sudan is Afro-Arab. Period.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 62 comments… read them below or add one }
“His article is cleverly written for an American audience”
And why not?
Most Americans (probably) don’t know anything about Sudan. Especially “peace activists” who worry about the life of every single Palestinian terrorist don’t seem to care much about Darfur (and Sudan).
An-Nur is making a point of choosing sides.
More power to him!
While I have no love for the current regime, currently there are no viable alternatives to Bashir and Co.!
What about An-Nur?
What is not factual? What has he not answered?
I like the direction Nur is going to.
Salaam
The SLM are nothing but a bunch of thugs with guns - ask them about their plans for the economy, society, health care and education!
You can’t change things through a barrel of a gun!!!
And where exactly are the SLM getting there funding from? A Foreign Power, the good ol’USA, I personally will not live in a puppet state, the current regime may be evil but at least its our own evil!
Digital,
You can change things through a barrel of a gun. Remember the American Civil War or World War 2.
I _hope_ that the SLM is getting their funding from the USA, because that is generally a good sign. I don’t care whether you want to live in a “puppet state” or not, because you already, alas in a Chinese puppet state also heavily influenced by the mad mullahs in Iran whom for some reason so many Arabs surrender to these days.
I myself grew up in an American “puppet state” (Germany) and it was a fantastic experience. You should try it some time.
Your own evil? What is that, exactly? You will allow people to mistreat you and murder others because they are your own? That’s pathetic!
If Bashir is your own, why don’t you tell him to cut it out, and see how he reacts and whether he cares for your opinions, since you are his own?
Ron,
What’s not to like?
If An-Nur is accepting money from the US (or even Israel) he will obviously try to implement policies that those two foreign powers will want him to implement.
That would mean a Sudan with no friendly relations with Iran or Syria but friendly relations with (and economic help from) Israel, the US, the EU, Jordan, Turkey, and the Comonwealth.
That would mean a Sudan open to foreign investors that don’t have a huge army of workers and would actually need to hire Sudanese.
That would mean a Sudan with schools and universities benefiting from Israeli and American support and knowledge.
That would mean a Sudan where churches can stand next to mosques and synagogues, like in the US and Israel (but sadly, not so much in Europe).
That would mean a Sudan that is not a lackey but an important and needed ally of its benefactors, a Sudan that is respected by the western world and hated by backwards dictatorships, a Sudan that can issue a passport that allows visa-free entry to Israel, America, and Europe.
And finally it would mean a Sudan that sends exchange students to Israel, and not refugees paying Bedouins to get away from “our own evil”.
And Drima could finally find his “Sudanese Jew” because Sudanese Jews could make themselves known and return to open businesses.
(And maybe even the Egyptian border police will stop shooting at Sudanese citizens. Or is that just a dream?)
Of course, there are downsides.
The western media will hate Sudan and list every single death that happens after An-Nur takes power, calling it an “increase in violence” when a few hundred die of violence rather than hundreds of thousands.
The mad mullahs and the Saudi criminals will decry Sudan’s apostasy (once Sudan starts following the Quran and respects Jews and Christians as the Quran dictates).
And Hamas will decry Sudan’s support for the Zionist genocide that has so far failed even to stop the massive increase of the Arab population in the territories and will launch a few rockets at Israeli hospitals and schools, hoping to hit not just Jewish and Druze patients and children but also the odd Sudanese student.
But some Sudanese will cry for the old days, when murdering Sudanese citizens was legal, if only the mad mullahs and Hamas and their ilk benefited from it.
They will cry because Sudan has become an American “puppet state” rather than the glorious free and proud country it was under Bashir, when Sudanese citizens were always ready to die whenever the mad mullahs or some Arab dictator needed cannon fodder or wanted to make room for another tribe or whatever else was reason enough to kill a Sudanese citizen.
Because nothing is more valuable than the pride of being the whipping boys of the mad mullahs in Iran. Right?
You can’t change things through a barrel of a gun!!!
When the only option you are given is the barrel of a gun (to whit, dying), and when any other path is barred to you, then the option of violent uprising seems to become more promising by the day.
And where exactly are the SLM getting there funding from? A Foreign Power, the good ol’USA, I personally will not live in a puppet state, the current regime may be evil but at least its our own evil!
Ah yes… And the central Sudanese government is being supported by China on the one hand (oil is nice - so is owning half of a country’s industry), and having its security forces being trained by Iran. But this, of course, is mere… international politics, nothing more, right? They’re still *your* bastards, but the rebels… oh the rebels by some miracle have stopped being *yours* when they took foreign aid, which essentially is their only possible source of funds, arms, and the only viable counter to the foreign support, funds, and arms that the central government holds.
I have a simple newsflash for you: They’re *all* yours, regardless of how much foreign money they get, be they they Bashir and his cronies, the SLM, the various armed movements of South Sudan that were accused in the exact same manner… all of them are yours, whether you like it or not. All your conflicts are local conflicts, with each side taking its fair share of foreign aid - simply because they can, because the aid is available. Bashir gives oil, and gets an international padded cushion in return - and leaders of countries in a similar vein to his model cushion him so that they won’t have to face trouble themselves in the future.
It’s all a merry little circle, isn’t it?
But the thing is… you’re so easily distracted by the “foreign intervention” argument that you then become willing to accept Bashir’s actions… simply because he isn’t “foreign intervention”. Because he’s *your* bad man, and somehow… the fact that the SLM then somehow become *foreign*, regardless of the fact that they’re all Sudanese…
The biggest victory of any dictator is to convince the populace that he has no alternative, and that all people who try to oppose him are traitors who act on the decree of foreign enemies.
digital salam ya zool,
“While I have no love for the current regime, currently there are no viable alternatives to Bashir and Co.!”
No, there are. The National Democratic Alliance (while not really all that nice or strongly united) would make a much better alternative over this regime on any given day.
For me, as long as opposition groups work together towards democracy and to represent all the diversity in Sudan, such an alliance would be desirable. Problem is Darfurian rebel groups are too divided.
I’m not for a new government that would be made of one group of people with sectarian or Islamist tendencies though. Islamist JEM is such a group with ties to the Bin Laden loving al-Turabi. If we’re going to go through a shitload of trouble and pain to replace this regime, we might as well replace it with something better, not the same headache or one possibly worse .
Darfur’s rebel groups and Sudan’s opposition parties need to get their shit together and cooperate better.
“The SLM are nothing but a bunch of thugs with guns - ask them about their plans for the economy, society, health care and education!”
While it certainly does have some such people within its ranks, I wouldn’t call the SLM “just a bunch of thugs.” The SLM’s leadership has some very educated people at its top. More importantly they seem to genuinely believe in liberal democracy.
I hate the fact that Darfur continues to burn but I don’t think the current regime has left Darfur’s rebels any other choice.
“I hate the fact that Darfur continues to burn but I don’t think the current regime has left Darfur’s rebels any other choice” (( إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَتَنُوا الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمُؤْمِنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَتُوبُوا فَلَهُمْ عَذَابُ جَهَنَّمَ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابُ الْحَرِيقِ )) البروج 10
“More importantly they seem to genuinely believe in liberal democracy” Mr. Khalil Ibrahim fought SPLM for 5 years and he was one of those called themselves Musilim Suicider. Moreover, He has believed that All Sudan is to be ruled according to ISLAM!!!!
“No, there are. The National Democratic Alliance (while not really all that nice or strongly united) would make a much better alternative over this regime on any given day.”
Every single party in Sudan got the chance to rule, unfortunately they all failed to resolve minor issues such as Electricity “by 2009 Sudan will be exporting it to Egypt & Ethiopia”!!!!
when I was born Electricity came only once at night three times a week. The are so many feasible postive things this regime has done for Sudan yet it has few shortcomings but they have never worked under peace. Put any regime under continous war and order all service providers not give them the necessary tools for E&P of Oil and see if they can make it happen.
so what da fu… those parties have done for Sudan?????
by they way… changing people doesn’t change the situation… we need to change the mentality of all politicians as well as Sudanese and You & I first
Note: Read, “Think”, then post because what you are doing is: Post, Read, then Think!!!!!!!
Slam
Andrew Brehm,
Totally enjoyed reading your post, especially “Your own evil? What is that, exactly? You will allow people to mistreat you and murder others because they are your own? That’s pathetic!”
First of all, what did the American Civil War really achieve : Northern Industrial Hegemony, the degradation of the South and the creation of economic slavery, a supposed freedom enjoyed by most of America’s black population till today!
As for WW2, can your really compare Sudan with 1940’s Europe? Not trying to be funny but there are areas in Sudan where cultures and skill sets mirror Iron Age civilization!
Anyway back to topic, what most foreigners do not realize or choose to ignore is that our socio-political evolution has been retarded for at least 200 years, can you really expect an alien concept such as “Democracy” to take root, in such a fractured nation.
What we need is real change, a slow yet steady organic growth, in order to reach our “collective” Sudanese objective of peace and prosperity. If that means another 100 years of war, bad governance and death so be it, name one successful nation on this earth that has not been purified in fire!
P.S. Israel really??? While I have no problem with people of the Jewish faith, I do have a problem with Israeli policy! The only lesson we can learn from the Israelis is how to more effectively deal with our insurgents through targeted assassinations, economic blockades and collective punishment!!
Peace
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Drima, Salam ya man
Although the National Democratic Alliance sounds like a good idea on paper, the past performances of some of the members leaves much to be desired, especially when it comes to the Umma Party!
Brother what we really need is a Technocracy, to manage our resources and implement social, health care, educational reforms and manage them fairly and properly!
F*&k the politics!
Peace
Ponder,
please apply that “Sudan is to be ruled according to ISLAM!!!!” argument to yourself if you want it that way because I sure don’t.
Islam has was filthily exploited for political benefits by the NIF and will continue to be so throughout the Muslim world unless there is a separation between the state and religion. Plus, let’s get real. Sudan is a diverse country with many non-Muslims and even the Muslims in Sudan have different conceptions of what Islamic law is.
As for the economic achievements of this regime, I agree with you. I’ve praised them for that here in this blog (admittedly a few times). Economic growth of up to 10% in a country with so many problems and internal conflict is nothing short of amazing. Still, the problem is development remains focused in Khartoum and central Sudan. Moreover, it’s mainly us Khartoumers and Northerns enjoying the economic boom. That needs to change asap.
Digital,
Mar7aba ya man. It looks like I’m going to enjoy discussing things with you here.
You mentioned this:
“What we need is real change, a slow yet steady organic growth, in order to reach our “collective” Sudanese objective of peace and prosperity. If that means another 100 years of war, bad governance and death so be it, name one successful nation on this earth that has not been purified in fire!”
I see where you’re going with this but I still don’t get how you perceive the current regime to be a starting point for that needed real change you speak of.
“Brother what we really need is a Technocracy, to manage our resources and implement social, health care, educational reforms and manage them fairly and properly!”
But how on earth is al-Bashir’s NCP achieving that? What they’re doing in Sudan can hardly be described as “fair” and “proper”.
I believe we agree on the direction and the goals but not the methods.
“The only lesson we can learn from the Israelis is how to more effectively deal with our insurgents through targeted assassinations, economic blockades and collective punishment!!”
You could also learn how to treat enemies in your hospitals while enemy “freedom fighters” keep shooting at those same hospitals.
You could learn how to build an infrastructure for a people and then see it destroyed when the Islamists take over and the legitimate (if corrupt) government flees and needs your help.
You could learn how to deliver oil and food to the enemy while the enemy tries to murder you, how to produce electricity for your enemy while your own workers are targeted with rockets when going to work in the power plant, how to offer peace for 60 years and see it rejected every time, and how to build a wealthy and free nation while being on the brink of extinction.
And you could learn how to drop leaflets a day before dropping bombs so that civilians can get away, if they wish to do so.
Learn all that and Sudan will be a success and nobody will, without lying, say that Sudan commits genocide in Darfur.
But be prepared that others will call your efforts “collective punishment”, because producing electricity for your enemy under their fire and treating their sick and wounded while they try to destroy the hospital you are working in is no work you will be thanked for.
So, yes, you can learn a lot from Israel, including how to be violent, how to survive, and how to deal with a large number of people, Arab and European, who wish to destroy you and a world that won’t accept that you too have the right to defend yourself against genocide.
I wish you would learn. I wish the Sudanese government would learn. I wish the world would learn.
If Sudan and its government won’t learn the lesson, then perhaps the Darfurians will!
“Northern Industrial Hegemony, the degradation of the South and the creation of economic slavery, a supposed freedom enjoyed by most of America’s black population till today!”
But for some reason American blacks stopped trying to flee to Canada.
Have you thought about that?
Dude,
You do realize that Israel is an occupying force! Right???
You do realize that Israel is an occupying force! Right???
Yes. And some of us also remember that the territories in question were previously under the military control of Egypt and Jordan. And some of us further take that extra step and remember that Israel had been under attack several years before its official declaration of independence.
Some of us, in fact, take that extra step and wonder not simply at the fact of the occupation, but on how it got there in the first place, and on why until the very early Nineties any attempt at removing said occupation also involved trying to continue the pre-1967 attempt at removing the entire state of Israel along with it.
Some of us remember that all the way back in 1967, when said occupation had just begun, Israel had already asked for negotiations - and got the famous “Anyone who negotiates with Israel is a traitor” Arab League answer.
Some of us remember that Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader with whom Israel entered negotiations to end the occupation, and who got de-facto autonomy and was building a thriving economy based on tourism, decided instead to rob his people silly (his wife, Suha, still holds the Palestinian presidential jet as her personal airline), and to set the conflict aflame yet again.
In fact, some of us… are capable of going beyond the simplistic.
Just saying.
“You do realize that Israel is an occupying force! Right???”
Yes. And?
I myself grew up in occupied territory. Cannot see the problem.
I wonder how many Arabs who don’t have a problem with Jews would even know what a Jew is if Israel had been destroyed in 1948 and the Jews of the Arab world had had no place to run to.
“Israel had been destroyed in 1948″!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as I know things are normally destroyed after they are established. Was there something called Israel b4 1948?
I believe Andrew is talking about the large-scale invasion that came on the day Israel declared independence, Ponder. And all that it entailed.
Though quite frankly, that was just the official date. The Jordanian legion had already entrenched itself, Jerusalem was blocked off, and gunfire had become the norm. The war had become inevitable, with the Israeli declaration of independence a mere symbolic rallying point. Too many regional leaders had become interested in building their new empires - and that was that.
Ponder, Roman,
I was talking about the large-scale invasion. But I was also talking about “Israel”, the land, rather than just “Israel”, the state.
The Jews called it “Israel”, the Quran refers to it as the land given by G-d to the children of Israel, the pagan Romans called it “Palestine”.
The British Empire called it “Palestine (Land of Israel)”, trying to compromise between the original and the pagan name for the land. Jews also referred to it as simply “the land”.
Whatever you want to call the place, the Arabs invaded and tried to destroy it (or at least the Jewish half of it) in 1948 (and a few more times after that).
Ponder,
Whether you accept it or not, Israel has existed for a very long time;
before the Babylonians invaded it, before the Persians gave it back to the Jews, before the Greeks invaded it,
before the Romans took over, before the Jews rebelled against the Romans because Jews had to refuse to accept a human emperor as a god,
before the Romans renamed the land “Palestine” after the pagan nation (probably from Greece) of the Philistines, who once lived in Gaza,
before Muhammed told his followers of G-d’s gift to the children of Israel, and before the Arabs invaded, and before the Turks invaded, and before the British invaded,
and before it was partitioned into Transjordan and Cisjordan Palestine, and before Cisjordan Palestine was partioned into (another) Arab state and one Jewish state,
and before and after all Arab attempts to destroy it.
The Jews have never given up their claim to the land.
Israel existed, exists, and will exist; just as the Tanakh and the Quran tell us.
The odd renaming by pagans from Europe or the attempts by secular Arab nationalists to destroy it or even the attempt by “Islamic” fundamentalists to destroy both Israel and the secular Arab nationalists don’t change that fact.
So if you want to support Sudan, look at Israel as an example. Its own culture and people are protected against ANY and ALL attempts to eradicate it.
Would any Sudanese patriot not want to be able to say the same thing about Sudan?
“Jerusalem was blocked off”
Well, the Jordanians will have to leave Jerusalem! Don’t you guys know that annexing Jerusalem is illegal?
Or was that illegal for Jews only? Not sure…
When did the Jews ever give Jerusalem to the Jordanians? Or the British or the Turks for that matter?
Not that I complain that the Turks had it…
Citation please! don’t refer 2 Bible because 1 bilion people don’t believe in these version of yours….
“the Quran refers to it as the land given by G-d to the children of Israel”, Is it the only part of Quran you believe in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please read it again
Taped evidances proves Palestine belongs to ARAB!
Read chapter 17 of the Quran, the Night Journey. You will find the story told also in the Tanakh about G-d commanding Moses and his people to move and settle in the holy land.
At no point did G-d take back that instruction.
Also read this, which I found an interesting (although pro-Islamic and anti-Christian) take on the matter:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa.html
“Taped evidances proves Palestine belongs to ARAB!”
How can there be evidence for that?
If we accept Muhammed as an authority, there is no way he would have reversed G-d’s decision (which he believed in) and there is no way he would have used the word “Palestine”, given his opinion on the Roman Empire who renamed Israel to “Palestine”.
Furthermore, Muhammed didn’t believe in _Arabs_ as much as believed in _Muslims_ (regardless of nationality), and other believers (like Christians and Jews).
Any other authority would be either a false prophet or a politician whose authority consists of being the de-facto ruler of the land.
I can give you a false prophet who will back me up and a regime that currently runs Israel as proof for the Jewish claim any day.
If that’s the sort of evidence you find sufficient for an Arab claim, surely it must suffice for a Jewish claim as well.
However, you are missing the point.
I’m not saying that Israel must be Jewish because G-d said so (although I believe that), I am saying that the land of Israel is very old and was recognised as a Jewish land long before the pagans renamed it “Palestine” and long after the renaming as well.
Muhammed referred to Israel as Jewish land before the Arabs even invaded it, when Israel was controlled by the the Byzantinians and the Persians before the Caliphate took it.
So claim ownership of the land if you like, but don’t claim that it wasn’t Israel all along.
You can claim the land, steal the land, not allow the Jews to live there (like the Byzantinians did), but you CANNOT erase the fact that it was and is _Israel_, for it will be impossible to change every copy of the Bible and the Quran out there and to remove all evidence for the existence of the Jewish Temple and to remove all memory of Jewish and Muslim history.
Like the Zionists I am all for Arabs living in Israel as citizens next to Jews, but when the Arabs refuse to live in peace and even start calling the land their own, while treating all minorities like dirt and hunt the Jews down everywhere but Morocco and Israel (where they can’t), then it means war.
Call Israel by the pagan name and you insult those who defended the holy land against the pagan invaders.
It was Israel before the pagans called it Palestine.
One thing i cant get is the following:
“We must prevail to help Sudan return to its natural, legitimate geopolitical place — which is the African continent and not the Arab or Muslim world.”
Why is it so important that Sudan in geopolitical contextes should be a part of Africa rather than the Arab or muslim world? Lets face it, Arabic is the most widely understood language in Sudan and Islam is the most widely practiced religion in Sudan. Why do you have to choose between Africa and the Arab and the Muslim world? The way i see it, Sudanese is part of all these 3.
Andrew:
Instead, give us some action. I once before asked you to copy/paste the relevant verses and from there show you how your interpretation is invalid, but you never did this. Do it, and i’ll show you why we disagree with that interpretation of yours.
Cut your talk about the Quranic laws regarding the children og Israel, please
Ponder and digital -
No amount development will extinguish the desire of Africans to have their land back.
Just as you fight for your Arab brothers the Palestinias we must also fight for our African brothers oppressed in Sudan and throughout Arab dominated lands.
Unfortunately, Sudan is the frontline between the war between Arabs and Africans and will continue to be symbolic for many reasons.
Salaam
God Bless Ahamed he did the job instead.. Copy and Paste that part …. I Challenge you…
btw… I don’t know but i feel you don’t exist…. i think you are … anyways!
Ponder, what taped evidence would that be? Elabourate, please.
Digital may actually have a point here. Though I have my doubts about how much organic growth can heal the gaps. It took Europe hundreds of years of wars and ethnic cleansing to become what it is now and even in recent years countries kept breaking up. There may be no real solution for the ethnic and sectarian mess in this region apart from velvet divorces and these may be practically impossible.
I would paraphrase it all as: If that means another 100 years of war, bad governance and death so be it, just don’t hold your breath for anything successful to come out of this. Rather it looks like too many countries around have an impossible ethnic composition and they won’t survive. On the bright side this ensures that watching news in our region is not going to be boring in the foreseeable future.
As i sit here munching on smoked almonds, I wonder
how in the hell this discussion shifted from Sudan to the legitimacy of the Israeli nation…
As terrible as the current government actually is, they are in fact currently planting the seeds of development. Through Hydro-Electric dams, Telecommunications, the Oil Industry, the Cement Industry, Industrial Agriculture et al….
Not to mention the application of Free Market principles… just take one look at the prices in town and tell me we don’t live in a capitalistic society.
Now many may argue that this development is only happening in Khartoum, and that is true, but what do you expect. nationwide simultaneous development! That is pretty much impossible due to the current deficiencies in logistics, raw materials, expertise and skilled man power.
Don’t forget the Sudan has always been poor, our economic output since independence has always been minuscule, only the emergence of the oil industry really saved us from “failed state” status!!
The situation may not be perfect, but development has to start somewhere, and Khartoum is the only area in the country with anything resembling infrastructure, so it might as well be it. In time development will spread to the east and west and south ( if they have not seceded by that time, which i personally think would be a big a$$ mistake, but that discussion is best left for another time.)
So please stop with all this development is only happening in Khartoum business, next you’ll start telling us to curb our carbon footprint!
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Ron wrote…
“No amount development will extinguish the desire of Africans to have their land back.
Just as you fight for your Arab brothers the Palestinians we must also fight for our African brothers oppressed in Sudan and throughout Arab dominated lands.”
————————————————–
Dude, when I look in the mirror all I see is a tall, handsome BLACK SUDANESE man who happens to speak Arabic. I don’t identify with Arabs or Africans.
Please don’t make brash generalizations.
As for the Israeli/Palestinian issue, personally I couldn’t care less, as a Sudanese I have enough problems to deal with!
As i sit here munching on smoked almonds, I wonder how in the hell this discussion shifted from Sudan to the legitimacy of the Israeli nation…
Too many people interested in Israel here, really. And I prefer roasted sunflower seeds, myself.
As for the Israeli/Palestinian issue, personally I couldn’t care less, as a Sudanese I have enough problems to deal with!
Entirely the best approach for anyone, anywhere. We all have our own problems in our own back yards - and should do our best to solve them.
“I wonder how in the hell this discussion shifted from Sudan to the legitimacy of the Israeli nation…”
I think it’s because YOU took it upon yourself to doubt the legitimacy of other nations.
I used Israel as an example for how Sudan could work.
“Instead, give us some action. I once before asked you to copy/paste the relevant verses and from there show you how your interpretation is invalid, but you never did this”
So what if I would quote a few lines? Wouldn’t you simply tell me that they are taken out of context?
Also, you cannot show me how my “interpretation” is invalid, you could merely show me why you THINK the words don’t mean what they mean.
The Quran simply states that G-d commanded the children of Israel to live in the holy land. That’s not interpretation, that’s just what it says.
A good explanation can be found here:
http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html
You will find the relevant quotes there too.
Either way, I wasn’t using the Quran as “proof” that Israel must be Jewish (hence my saying “I’m not saying that Israel must be Jewish because G-d said so”), but as proof that Israel predates “Palestine” and that “Palestine” is merely another name for the land, one that wasn’t even acknowledged by Muhammed (who I doubt would acknowledge the pagan name for any territory).
Incidentally, I read the entire Quran. I know the context and I know that Islamic rulers in the past certainly did interpret the Quran the way I did (Jews are allowed to live in Israel) and not the way modern Islamists do (Jews are the sons of pigs and dogs and shoule die).
Incidentally, the legend about Moses being a prophet and telling the Jews that G-d commanded them to live in the land of Israel is a core component of ALL Abrahamic and many related faiths. Even the Zoroastrians believed it.
The ONLY off-shoot of the religion of Abraham that doubts the validity of the legend is current (not traditional) “Islam”, where nationalist interests have obviously taken over the role of faith.
The big irony is that IF Muslims followed the Quran, regardless of their personal opinions or national interests, there WOULD be peace in the middle east.
You are trying to figure out whether Israel belongs to the Jews or the Arabs? Ask the Quran.
I am still not saying that that is an objective argument. But it does seem to me that if Muhammed had foreseen the conflict, he couldn’t have done more to end it!
(But then I also believe that Umar (?) built the mosque on the temple mount to protect the temple mount from future vandalism. My respect for early Muslim rulers is only matched by my disgust for current “Muslim” leaders.)
Andrew,
I never once doubted the legitimacy of Israel , I believe I may have criticized Israeli policy in dealing with Palestinians, but that’s about it!
I believe it was “Ahmad Al Safawi” who so eloquently put it :
” Cut your talk about the Quranic laws regarding the children og Israel, please
Instead, give us some action. I once before asked you to copy/paste the relevant verses and from there show you how your interpretation is invalid, but you never did this. Do it, and i’ll show you why we disagree with that interpretation of yours.”
“Incidentally, I read the entire Quran”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Incidentally! unless we understand english differently:)
Please tell how reading thirty Chapter which consist thousand of pages can be an incident?
Stop fooling around and post the part that says God says “Palestinian is the land of Jews or Israel!!!!!!!!!!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Incidentally
1.apart or aside from the main subject of attention, discussion, etc.; by the way; parenthetically.
To sum up the above “incidentally” is equivalent to “by the way” when used in the manner Andrew did. And it would seem that he and you *do* understand English differently.
Also, Andrew did post what was asked of him. Read through the link he supplied, which includes the relevant quotes from the Qu’ran and commentary by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi. I believe this is precisely what you have been demanding of him.
http://abuskander.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/israel-quran/
This one is for you, dear Andrew
I think Andrew should pay Roman…..!!!!!!!!
“incidentally” is equivalent to “by the way” REALLY!
“Andrew did post what was asked of him” No, he only gave a link….. Is it so hard to copy that part of the Quran and paste it here…. do it if you dare
hola
I just found out that i by accident removed large parts of the article, it were supposed to include the commentaries of the great muslim scholars of the past. Therefore, i have withdrawed the post. It will be finished tomorrow, God willing.
“incidentally” is equivalent to “by the way” REALLY!
As I said, you and Andrew have a different understanding of the English language. So do you and the entire English-speaking world, it would appear.
No, he only gave a link
Did you bother clicking it? The rather short article contains the relevant quotes. Surely you can press “page down” on the keyboard every now and then to browse through a single web-page?
Or is that too much to ask for? I can help you find the relevant key on your keyboard if it’s too hard for you to locate it on your own.
Ahmad, I guess it means my comment is gone?
“Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: ‘Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel].” [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
And OF COURSE the Quran doesn’t say that “Palestine” was the land of the Jews.
As I said before, Muhammed would not have used the _pagan name_ for the land of Israel.
This might be simpler if you would simply stop calling Israel “Palestine”.
“And [remember] when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.’” [Qur'an 5:20-21]
So there, the Zionists did EXACTLY what the Quran claims G-d commanded them to do.
David Ben-Gurion once said that “in Israel, to be a realist, you have to believe in miracles”.
Well, I’m not sure if any miracles happened; but the survival of the Jews considering the number of their enemies and the methods those enemies used to attack, certainly seems miraculous.
Israel was so close to being destroyed, twice.
But I agree with Shaykh Palazzi. I also believe that G-d won’t allow that to happen, no matter how hard His enemies try!
“Is it so hard to copy that part of the Quran and paste it here”
It’s not hard. I just consider taking individual statements of the Quran and quoting them free of context or commentary a bit questionable. It IS an important book, after all.
Anyway, the Quran does tell the story of G-d giving the land of Israel to the Jews, just like the Bible does.
It does not mention a legal way to take that title away from the Jews, as far as I know.
You should have left it as it is. There was no need to remove it and the comments. But i can tell you already that you did not sound very convincing to me. I was waiting for a whole day for your answer to Roman only to find out that both the post and the comments are gone.
I am no expert on Koran and Islam and even have doubts about the whole idea of Koran as a zionist manifesto as presented here by Andrew. Nevertheless, regardless if Andrew’s point valid or not, it’s not hard to see that refutation does not come easily to you. I was sure that you have some polished and prepared in advanced argument and was really surprised to see the whole thing getting stuck without an answer after the very first Roman’s comment.
“the whole idea of Koran as a zionist manifesto”
It depends on your definition of Zionism, I am sure.
My own definition of Zionism is perfectly compatible with the Quran’s statements.
Plus I only used the Quran here as evidence for my claim that the association of the land in question with the people of Israel is not new and that hence 1948 _could_ have destroyed the land of Israel.
If Muhammed believed that G-d gave the holy land to the Jews, that certainly proves that “Israel” existed as a land before 1948. Whether Muhammed was RIGHT, I do not know. I believe so, but it is not an objective argument.
I do claim, however, that there is no Arab claim to “Palestine” that is better than “we took it in a war”, a claim that Jews now also have (and more recently too).
Never mind that I after came back home I discovered the whole thing still open in my Firefox. I promptly saved the page to my disk, even twice, to make sure that Ahmad can’t get away
I have not deleted the comments, only withdrewn the article (not deleted it!). If by mistake deleted the comments then i will see if i cannot drag it forward. I am so sorry, i will get it done tonight friends.
Just discovered that the comments seems to be gone, Nobody you can insert Romans comment again as soon as it is back. I will not make any changes to what was written (except that i by mistake wrote Qurtubi instead of Tabari), only additions because i forgot to include the footnotes (if you have the article you can see that i did intend to insert them!) and the commentaries of the muslim scholars too.
Yes, I did notice that the numbered footnotes seem to be missing. I’ll wait for the update.
Also, the comments seem to have been restored properly. No worries on that count, then.
I dont know what is wrong, everytime i seek to print the changes, it shuts down. So i’ve just recalled the previous version and responded on the comments instead. Hope that works.
Have you tried to flush the cache? Try to delete all temporary Internet files and the stuff.
RESPONSE TO THE HYPOCRITIC RACIST ZIONIST:-
Qur’an, “Night Journey,” chapter 17:100-104]
And OF COURSE the Quran doesn’t say that “Palestine” was the land of the Jews. Thanks for admitting that your point is weak.
Here is phrase as in arabic: “قُل لَّوْ أَنتُمْ تَمْلِكُونَ خَزَائِنَ رَحْمَةِ رَبِّي إِذًا لَّأَمْسَكْتُمْ خَشْيَةَ الإِنفَاقِ وَكَانَ الإِنسَانُ قَتُورًا
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى تِسْعَ آيَاتٍ بَيِّنَاتٍ فَاسْأَلْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ إِذْ جَاءَهُمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ فِرْعَوْنُ إِنِّي لَأَظُنُّكَ يَا مُوسَى مَسْحُورًا
قَالَ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتَ مَا أَنزَلَ هَؤُلاء إِلاَّ رَبُّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ بَصَائِرَ وَإِنِّي لَأَظُنُّكَ يَا فِرْعَوْنُ مَثْبُورًا
فَأَرَادَ أَن يَسْتَفِزَّهُم مِّنَ الأَرْضِ فَأَغْرَقْنَاهُ وَمَن مَّعَهُ جَمِيعًا
وَقُلْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اسْكُنُواْ الأَرْضَ فَإِذَا جَاءَ وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ جِئْنَا بِكُمْ لَفِيفًا ”
So there’s no reference saying Palestine is the Jew land but void historical books!
Since you believe in Quran or at least what it says about Jew, so believe this too. “Night Journey: Chapter 17:4-5″And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!
5 When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled”.
BE PREPARED!
“Thanks for admitting that your point is weak.”
Actually, I was admitting that YOUR point was weak.
I was telling you that I don’t believe that Muhammed would use the pagan name for the land.
“Night Journey: Chapter 17:4-5″And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!”
Actually, I believe that. In fact, it has already happened.
Those events are known as the two exiles.
The article I linked to addresses that situation. Have you even read it?
So what does your BE PREPARED mean? Are you going to try to against Quranic prophecy and work to cause a third exile?
You are not the “servants” the Quran referred to. They were the Babylonians and Romans.
Muhammed was fully aware of Jewish history. What you are relying on is secular nationalism.
(Incidentally, I am not a “racist zionist”. But I love it when quoting the Quran immediately qualifies me for both titles!)
*Yawn*
FACT: Moses is a Prophet recognized and respected in Islam.
FACT: The story of how Moses led his people away from the Pharaoh’s oppression and into the land of Israel is one that is recognized and told in Islam.
FACT: In the Quran, that piece of land is not called Palestine. It’s called Israel.
FACT: Before the Kabba was cleansed of idols, Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem.
FACT: Based on the facts above, there is evidence that clearly indicates the inherent ties between the land of Israel and the Jewish people. However, there is no evidence indicating that the land is *exclusively* Jewish or *exclusively* meant for Jews.
P.S.: This comment has no agenda really… besides conveying the facts of course.
Guys, join me and Roman over at my blog instead, you are giving poor Drima a headache
And damn, first I was wondering why the discussion turned into one focused on Israel (OMG, surprise of the century!) and next thing I know, I’m participating in it.
*smacks forehead*
Anyways, back to topic…
Digital,
“What we need is real change, a slow yet steady organic growth, in order to reach our “collective” Sudanese objective of peace and prosperity. If that means another 100 years of war, bad governance and death so be it, name one successful nation on this earth that has not been purified in fire!”
True, and never have I said things will improve over night but you’re STILL missing the core point of my message.
There has to be a starting point for progress, and while you partially right about technocracy, you can’t overlook politics and the democratic transition. The main reason Khartoum is just beginning to look for ways to begin developing regions away from the mid-North is because it’s starting to see that marginalized people are angrily starting to wake up to their marginalized reality.
“However, there is no evidence indicating that the land is *exclusively* Jewish or *exclusively* meant for Jews.”
That is my understanding too, and, as I said that was the understanding of the Zionists, who founded a country that was supposed to have Arab citizens (and does have Arab citizens).
Either way, I think it is fair to say that _Israel_ did exist before 1948 and was understood as such for a long time.
I have never met anybody who thought that the land was supposed to be exclusively Jewish. There are small groups that believe that, but they have little support among Israelis, Jews, and Zionists.
But there are groups who believe that the land should be exclusively Arab or Islamic.
Ahmad,
Joined.
Thanks.
“it has already happened” yet to happen….
again an again an again …. No evidence Niether from the Holy Quran nor from the Bible.
and all Taped Evidences prove that Palestine belongs to Arab
Sir, you are trying to rewrite the history…
The end is so close so get ready!
What is “taped evidence”?
I wonder as well, Andrew? What *is* this taped evidence that Ponder keeps talking about between bouts of threatening destruction based on his self-perceived religious and ethnic superiority?
I find his refusal to read the Quran to check whether his religion even supports his crusade even more worrisome.
Unfortunately You are not a debator and yet you failed to come up with one clear evidence The Land of Palestine belongs to Jews or Israel…
Sir, niether the Quran nor any other holy book says that Palestine is the land of Israel… and again Quran chapter 17:100-104 has never mentioned that…
and since you believe in Quran, the following is also from the Quran:
وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ يَدُ اللَّهِ مَغْلُولَةٌ غُلَّتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَلُعِنُواْ بِمَا قَالُواْ بَلْ يَدَاهُ مَبْسُوطَتَانِ يُنفِقُ كَيْفَ يَشَآءُ كُلَّمَآ أَوْقَدُواْ نَاراً لِّلْحَرْبِ أَطْفَأَهَا اللَّهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً وَاللَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُفْسِدِينَ } [المائدة:64].
Translated: 5:64 And the Jews said: “The hand of God is tied-down!” Their hands will be tied-down, and they will be cursed for what they have said. No, His hands are wide open spending as He wills. And for many of them, what has been sent down to you will increase them in rebellion and rejection; and We have cast between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the fire of war, God puts it out; and they seek to make corruption in the land; and God does not like the corrupters.
AND GOD DOES NOT LIKE THE CORRUPTERS… anyone can answer me: How God almighty can give the Right of Property to bunch of Corrupters..
Sir, This ownership does only exist in you racist brain!
4:155 So, for the breaking of their covenant, and their rejection of God’s signs, and their killing of the prophets without justice, and their saying: “Our hearts are layered over.” Indeed, God has stamped upon their hearts because of their rejection; they do not believe, except for a few”
How come that who murder God almighty Messenger and Prophets are given any right over the Holy land… but I hope that you will be one of those few believers
The Holy Quran also mentioned that you have no wisdom………
59:14 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves: thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
Believe me If you put down you weapons and offer a true peace to Muslim and Arab after admitting your sins, mistakes, and slips. We Arab, Muslims will forgive for whatever you have done. Even The Arab Christian may forgive for killing The beloved the messenger of mercy Jessus.
Change before it’s too late
Peace
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