The Gaza-Israel “Circus”

{ 129 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Drima 03.05.08 at 9:07 am

Btw, in case you’re around Amru, I’m not sure if you’ve already read my reply to your previous comments on Israel and Palestine. See it here.

2 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 9:42 am

Drima,

The minister used the Hebrew word “shoah” which means “disaster”. He promised them an even greater disaster.

The Holocaust is, in Hebrew, “haShoah”, which means “the disaster”.

It’s like mixing up “president” and “the president” in American English, I suppose.

Why the news media decided to mis-translate the word I can only speculate. Perhaps the Jews weren’t evil enough without promising a Holocaust?

BTW, over 50% (or much more) civilian casualties in a war against an enemy hidden in a civilian area (like a city) is normal. It is a war crime to hide among civilians, it is legal to target the hiding places. (Unless, of course, Jews are involved. In that case the definitions change and the Jew is the war criminal.)

It’s a miracle that civilian casualties are not more than 90% given that the terrorists hide among civilians and probably don’t make up more than 5% of the population where they hide.

I don’t think any other army in the world keeps civilian casualty levels as low as the Israeli.

(And anybody who thinks that’s BS may come up with examples for other wars where one side hides among civilians and the other takes them out without harming civilians.)

Lastly, for all the anti-Zionists out there, let me ask you this simple question:

Is hiding among civilians still a war crime when done by Arabs fighting Israel? Yes or no?

3 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 10:57 am

First of all, you don’t even know how many (innocent) civillians REALLY got killed, because they are figures provided by Hamasthugs and it’s not the first time they would lie about this.

4 Roman Kalik 03.05.08 at 11:16 am

The wonderful Israeli deputy defense minister, Matan Vilnai seems to disagree though. Vowing a “bigger holocaust” in Gaza huh? Very nice Mr. deputy defense minister. Very nice. I hope you’re proud of your cute self. I’m not even surprised you hold that position of yours.

I totally agree with Andrew on this one, Drima. As the article you linked to states, the word “shoah” literally translates to “great disaster”. Vilnai was saying (and accurately so) that should Hamas continue down their current path, they will bring an even greater disaster upon themselves. Had he used a more mundane word - Ason - for ‘disaster’, his interview would have been utterly forgotten by all.

Mind you, Vilani did get people in Israel angry for using a word that had become largely reserved for The Holocaust (Ha’Shoah in Hebrew) in a mundane manner - and for playing right into the hands of people who would latch onto the Zionists = Nazis comparison. I doubt Vilnai even realized just how far and wide this single interview would go.

According to the IDF, only 10% of those killed so far are innocent people. Yes, sure thing. I so believe that. Oh yeah, like totally! The truth is, more than fifty percent are innocent civilians including women and children.

These aren’t some crazy statistics that I simply farted out of my butt. They’re provided by the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem.

I’d take B’Tselem’s reports with a grain of salt, myself, just as I would take the unverified public statements of the IDF. B’Tselem have a pretty simple approach - in their book, anyone aged 18 and below can’t be an armed militant as he is a child, and anyone whom the Palestinian medical authorities report as being unarmed also can’t be an armed militant.

The first view (that people aged 18 and below are innocent children) is pretty laughable, in my view. Teenagers are the ones usually drawn, unthinking, to populist and violent causes. 16-22 is pretty much the most dangerous age group, and it’s people at these ages that Israeli soldiers largely encounter in combat.

The second issue is that here and now, most medical services in Gaza are managed by Hamas (they built up quite an extensive civic infrastructure, similar to that of Hezbollah in Lebanon). The press won’t report what the rulers won’t allow. So at the end of the day, that means that the only people reported as militants by Palestinians are those that are suitable candidates for glorification. They would all be reported as “martyrs who fought against the occupation” in one way or another as it is (regardless of age or participation), but the only ones would count as militants are those who publicly walked around wearing Hamas colors, participating in Hamas rallies, and fighting while wearing the same uniform.

Remember that article I linked to a few posts ago, Drima, about the small Kassam production shed? Would that student who makes the fuel count as a militant? Or would he be reported as a civilian casualty? He’s unarmed, he doesn’t wear Hamas colors, and there is little to no benefit from glorifying him (as public glorification is a publicity device used to bring in new recruits, and that student wasn’t the usual kind of recruit - the men in the car with him who played with guns are).

Regarding the Vanity Fair documents…

Weeks passed with no sign that Abbas was ready to do America’s bidding. Finally, another official was sent to Ramallah. Jake Walles, the consul general in Jerusalem, is a career foreign-service officer with many years’ experience in the Middle East. His purpose was to deliver a barely varnished ultimatum to the Palestinian president.

We know what Walles said because a copy was left behind, apparently by accident, of the “talking points” memo prepared for him by the State Department. The document has been authenticated by U.S. and Palestinian officials.

“We need to understand your plans regarding a new [Palestinian Authority] government,” Walles’s script said. “You told Secretary Rice you would be prepared to move ahead within two to four weeks of your meeting. We believe that the time has come for you to move forward quickly and decisively.”

The memo left no doubt as to what kind of action the U.S. was seeking: “Hamas should be given a clear choice, with a clear deadline: … they either accept a new government that meets the Quartet principles, or they reject it The consequences of Hamas’ decision should also be clear: If Hamas does not agree within the prescribed time, you should make clear your intention to declare a state of emergency and form an emergency government explicitly committed to that platform.”

Walles and Abbas both knew what to expect from Hamas if these instructions were followed: rebellion and bloodshed. For that reason, the memo states, the U.S. was already working to strengthen Fatah’s security forces. “If you act along these lines, we will support you both materially and politically,” the script said. “We will be there to support you.”

Abbas was also encouraged to “strengthen [his] team” to include “credible figures of strong standing in the international community.” Among those the U.S. wanted brought in, says an official who knew of the policy, was Muhammad Dahlan.

I’ve read this again and again, and I’ve yet to understand just how Vanity Fair want to play this into a “US started a rebellion” gig. The US had an interest in a Palestinian government that accepted the obligations of the previous governments - this is a pretty basic issue. If, as Vanity Fair imply, violence and bloodshed on the part of Hamas due to the pressure on this issue were to be expected, then how does this make it a *US* instigated violence?

As for the rest of the argument…

In essence, the program was simple. According to State Department officials, beginning in the latter part of 2006, Rice initiated several rounds of phone calls and personal meetings with leaders of four Arab nations—Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates. She asked them to bolster Fatah by providing military training and by pledging funds to buy its forces lethal weapons. The money was to be paid directly into accounts controlled by President Abbas.

And this makes it comparable to the Iran Contra deal? Pfeh. Both Egypt and Jordan had (and still have) a vested interest in a stable Palestinian nation. Further reading reveals that not only did few (if any) shipments of either arms or cash reached Fatah - these were closely scrutinized by Israeli officials to make sure that they were, at best, the kind of guns a policeman would feel comfortable with, rather than the kind a soldier would.

And by the time the great “warlord” Dahlan made his “attack” against Hamas, the war between Hamas and Fatah was already in full swing - the Palestinian police force under Dahlan being at least an official part of the Palestinian Authority, unlike the Hamas armed forces.

Frankly, by the time of this so-called “Fatah coup” that the US seemed to have supported, the Hamas aim to personally take over Palestinian institutions, as well as create semi-official armed forces loyal directly to Hamas rather to the Palestinian government institutions - was already obvious and operating at full swing.

As for the US policy not having been any worse - I can’t help but wonder, what could have been any better? Perhaps the US should have left Fatah to die as Hamas gathered more unofficial foreign support - arms and money aplenty, and even official support from Iran. At the end of the day, you pick the lesser of evils and pray that you’ve made the right choice - had the Palestinians supplied a better choice, I’m sure it would have received a great deal more support. But this did not happen. We were left with Hamas and Fatah instead - to our great chagrin.

5 Craig 03.05.08 at 11:18 am

Good post, Drima. I agree with much of what you say. I agree with Andrew’s comment too, and I admire his persistence in continuing to debate the issue. I gave up on trying to debate the Arab-Israeli conflict in a rational manner years ago.

I’m curious why you blame Bush, though? Do you think anything will be different next year, with a different President? I think the next President, whoever it is, is unlikely to involve the US politically in the “mid-east peace process” - mainly because, there isn’t one. And there is no benefit for a US President to try, and fail.

6 Drima 03.05.08 at 11:36 am

Lots of interesting stuff covered and I’ll be back again but for now I’d like to comment on the Vanity Fair piece.

I probably should have linked it in a separate and fresh post. I don’t agree with everything mentioned in it as I feel that it cuts Hamas too much slack, but I do agree with the overall argument, in that Bush had a seemingly good plan which then got implemented terribly.

More posts and replies later.

7 Roman Kalik 03.05.08 at 12:01 pm

I probably should have linked it in a separate and fresh post. I don’t agree with everything mentioned in it as I feel that it cuts Hamas too much slack

I agree. Like the bit where they went on to justify the way Hamas militants went around summarily executing Fatah members, torturing them, and throwing them off tall buildings - because, apparently, they only did this because the Evil Dahlan’s security forces were bad people.

Or the series of quotes taken off Hamas members that went on to show how Hamas are really nice people who didn’t really mean to have a (barely mentioned in the article) illegal armed force, or to take over Gaza, or to do anything at all save “resist” - be it Israel or Fatah.

but I do agree with the overall argument, in that Bush had a seemingly good plan which then got implemented terribly.

That much is certain. The obsession and intervention of foreign countries in this issue often follows the same lines.

More posts and replies later.

Looking forward to them.

8 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 12:30 pm

ah this is going to be a reasonable debate. Lovely! Drima, looking forward to your replies.

9 salma 03.05.08 at 12:32 pm

hi drima
one question for u , if israelis are the peace loving people in this conflict , did u ask yourself why they always building new settelments ( in palestinean land), did u ask your self why they have to take alot of prisoners from the west bank .
i do not support the rocket attacks at all. ( i hate to play the blame game ).

10 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 12:54 pm

“if israelis are the peace loving people in this conflict , did u ask yourself why they always building new settelments (in palestinean land)”

I know Drima is against those settlements, but have you ever asked yourself the question why you consider it an act of war to build a village?

Many of the “settlements” have been built on land where Jews lived until 1948. Others have simply been built on land Jews bought from Arabs before 1948 or after 1967.

All of it happens on land that Israel won in a war and offered to give back several times.

Can you tell me how buying land and building on it is considered “not peace” just because a Jew does it?

I am from Germany. A huge part of Germany was annexed by Poland after WW2. The Germans living there were expelled. Poles settled there. But that doesn’t mean, to me, that Poles do not want peace.

And if they hadn’t expelled the Germans and had bought the land they settled on, I would never ever consider what they did anything but completely normal and civilised. (As it stands, I consider it an unfortunate by-effect of losing a war.)

You can test who is the peace-loving side by dressing up as one and walk through a city of the other. The city where you are killed for being the other is not of the peace-loving side.

“did u ask your self why they have to take alot of prisoners from the west bank .”

That’s an easy one: it’s because Israel does not simply kill all her enemies and instead puts them into prisons (even though that’s more expensive).

Are you really surprised that many of those who WANT to murder Jews (they proudly admit it) land in prison when the police catches them? Should it be different?

Which peace-loving country would not put anti-Semitic terrorists into prison???

11 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 1:05 pm

“i hate to play the blame game”

I don’t.

I blame the Arabs for attacking Jewish villages in Palestine before Israel was ever founded.

I blame the Arabs for attacking Israel when it was founded.

I blame the Arabs for selling land to Jews and then complaining about it and demanding it back (after it has been improved and a city has been built on it).

I blame the Arab Palestinians for abandoning the new country instead of defending it against the invaders. I have not forgotten the speech by the mayor of Haifa and Israel’s calls on Palestinian Arabs to stay and participate in the new country.

I blame the Arabs for not keeping to their word and breaking cease-fire agreement after cease-fire agreement.

I blame the Arabs for co-operating with the Nazis in their quest for a final solution. And while not all did, the PLO still regards those that did as heroes and great fighters for the “Palestinian cause”.

I blame the Arabs for idolising terrorists and murderers.

I blame the Arabs for refusing to sign a peace-treaty in exchange for lost land in 1967.

And 1994.

And 2000.

I blame the Arabs for TARGETING kindergartens, schools, and hospitals with rockets.

I blame the Arabs for voting for Hamas and war with Israel AGAIN after signing a peace treaty.

I blame the Arabs for signing peace treaties and not stay true to their words.

I blame the Arabs for expelling hundreds of thousands of Jews and for the mistreatment of those same Jews before they fled.

I blame the Arabs for mistreating other minorities.

And I blame the Jews for buying land and building houses. But I cannot find that quite as reprehensible.

Jews have done exactly two things that stand in the way of peace:

a) build settlements

b) exist

Unfortunately that is the point where I am not willing to back down.

DISCLAIMER: By “Arabs” in the above text I am referring to the Arab countries or their governments, NOT every single Arab has has ever lived and might or might not agree with the policies of Arab countries or their governments.

(This disclaimer is usually not necessary. For example when I talk about WW2 I can say “the Germans” or “the Japanese” and everybody knows I am referring to Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2. “Arabs” is here used in the same sense.)

12 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 1:09 pm

Salma, just as muslims are allowed to live in Israel and the rest of the world, jews should be allowed to live also everywhere in the world.

13 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 1:16 pm

“just as muslims are allowed to live in Israel and the rest of the world, jews should be allowed to live also everywhere in the world.”

Yes. This weird principle that the Arab part of Palestine is naturally off-limits to Jews and that any attempt to change that is tantamount to a war crime must be forgotten.

Can anybody here give me a good legal argument against ALL Jewish “settlements” in the West Bank that works WITHOUT reference to the weird principle cited above?

I also need to know why the same argument would not apply to Arab settlements in Israel should a “right to return” be enforced.

Case-in-point:

There was a Jewish community in Hevron for 3000 years until 1948. Since 1967 Jews have come back to Hevron. Why is that illegal?

14 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 2:06 pm

“and on the other hand, they can easily hurt innocent Israelis”

But isn’t that the point?

If this wasn’t about hurting innocent Israelis, why call for the death of the Jews at all? Why try to destroy Israel? Why make up stories about Jews to justify their murder?

You still believe that the “Palestinian cause” is not primarily about killing Jews and hence cannot find the rocket attacks useful. But I wonder how many “Palestinians” share your view of the “Palestinian cause”. If the “Palestinian cause” was not about killing Jews, why do we have a conflict?

15 Don Cox 03.05.08 at 3:49 pm

“Bush had a seemingly good plan which then got implemented terribly.”

This has been the whole history of the Bush administration.

16 Don Cox 03.05.08 at 3:53 pm

I find Andrew’s arguments compelling. The root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict seems to be the xenophobia of some Arabs.

17 Zionist=Racist 03.05.08 at 4:11 pm

“Meanwhile, it looks like the spectacle is going to continue for a while but it’s not just Israel, Israel and more Israel. Let’s not forget to hold Hamas responsible too for the death of innocent Palestinians. In fact, increasingly, the so-called leadership of the Palestinians is responsible for more and more of its own people’s troubles.”
——–
Drima just curious do you ride Israeli dick becuase you enjoy it, or becuase you enjoy all your dick riding ’stans’ who come and post on your thoughts every day?
——-
“Truth is on the side of the oppressed” Malcom X

18 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 4:12 pm

“The root cause of the Arab-Israeli conflict seems to be the xenophobia of some Arabs.”

Yes.

That would also explain the Arab-Kurdish conflict, the Arab-Turkish conflict (at the Turkish-Syrian border), the Arab-Iranian conflict, both major and all minor conflicts in Sudan, and what happened in France in the last few years.

Arab attitude towards Berbers in the Maghreb is also a symptom, I am sure.

19 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 4:29 pm

Oh, look, our friend ZionistvsNazi is back.

Since my posting about the connections between the enemies of Zionism in Palestine and the Nazis in Germany he has changed his name.

Soon he will discover that the Nazis were racists and he has to change his name again.

“Truth is on the side of the oppressed”

Did he add “unless they are Jewish”?

20 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 5:02 pm

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/UpLoadFiles/PGallery/0758189745.jpg

This is how brave Hamas and co are. Of course it shows their desperate hope for peace with Israel and it shows that they are really willing to accomplish that.

21 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 5:06 pm

Tell me Zionist=Racist, you like to come here to attack and insult Drima because you have no arguments against the truth being uttered here or because you have no arguments against the truth being uttered here?

22 Suzanne 03.05.08 at 5:09 pm

Btw. Malcolm X also said:

“(…) and then the Jews set up Israel, their own country — the one thing that every race of man in the world respects, and
understands.”

(the only mistake he makes there is callig Jews a race, but despite that… exactly!)

23 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 5:16 pm

Just to make something more clear to the casual reader.

The “oppressed” we are talking about here rank higher on the human development index than all neighbouring Arab countries:

http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_PSE.html

And they have a lower infant mortality rate than neighbouring Arab countries:

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/chart.htm?=&period=0&rt=0&startdate=2000&enddate=2007&category=standard_of_living.0.deaths_of_babies&countrycode=215616&countrycode=217173&countrycode=218247&countrycode=PS&go.x=52&go.y=2

When the border between Gaza and Egypt was open, the Gazans literally bought the northern Sinai empty. Apart from forged money (probably used to show their brotherly love for the Egyptians) the Gazans had huge amounts of real money and had no problems buying food, equipment, and luxury items, the Egyptians themselves could never afford.

We are talking “oppression” here that allows the “oppressed” to enjoy a higher standard of living than the non-oppressed.

Let’s keep that in mind when somebody refers to the Palestinian Arabs as the “oppressed”.

24 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 5:22 pm

“and then the Jews set up Israel, their own country — the one thing that every race of man in the world respects, and understands.”

“Race” doesn’t only mean “race” in the biological sense, but often simply “a group” (”race of doctors” - google it without quotes for some fun).

From Malcolm X’s autobiography:

http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-197-Malcolm-X-on-Jews.html

25 Andrew Brehm 03.05.08 at 5:32 pm

Our friend ZionistvsNazi clearly doesn’t know much and simply repeats whatever propaganda he heard from particularly disreputable sites.

He doesn’t actually know anything about “Palestine” or “Palestinians” and how Israel treats them (during a war with them).

If you had asked him where he would rank the living standard of the “Palestinians”, I doubt he would have said “above Egypt’s”.

He compared Zionists to Nazis because he didn’t know of the historic connection between the “Palestinians” and the Nazis.

And then he uses Malcolm X as a spokesman for his cause, not realising that Malcolm disagreed with him.

He’ll be running out of groups with which to associate the Zionists and people with whom to associate himself. Without an education, and following just cheap propaganda, he will constantly find that the groups he considered evil enough to be considered similar to Zionists were actually supporters of the “Palestinian cause” and that the people he respects do not support that same cause.

From there it’s only a small step to becoming a Zionist.

DISCLAIMER: A Palestinian, no quotes, is an inhabitant of Palestine, the territory, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion. A “Palestinian”, with quotes, is a non-Jewish inhabitant of “Palestine” or Egyptian who moved to Palestine who holds Arab-nationalist or heretical Islamic beliefs. All statements referring to “Palestinians” (quotes) are not meant to refer to Palestinians (no quotes).

26 Zionism=Racism=Nazism 03.05.08 at 9:22 pm

Nice to see all the Drima dick riding stans out in full force…..lets see how many times you can post after this one, can we go for 25 one after another Mr. Brehim?…Do you zionists hold Drima’s dick while he pisses?

And again with all your zionist propaganda, you racist zionist are little league. ….

You trying to say Malcom supports zionist is hilarious….just like Fallafel is Jewish right?
You stay losing.

here’s his article from 1964:(Speciffically second to last paragraph)
—————————-
Zionist Logic — Malcolm X on Zionism
Malcolm X (Omowale Malcolm X Shabazz)

Taken from The Egyptian Gazette — Sept. 17, 1964

The Zionist armies that now occupy Palestine claim their ancient Jewish prophets predicted that in the “last days of this world” their own God would raise them up a “messiah” who would lead them to their promised land, and they would set up their own “divine” government in this newly-gained land, this “divine” government would enable them to “rule all other nations with a rod of iron.”

If the Israeli Zionists believe their present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of predictions made by their Jewish prophets, then they also religiously believe that Israel must fulfill its “divine” mission to rule all other nations with a rod of irons, which only means a different form of iron-like rule, more firmly entrenched even, than that of the former European Colonial Powers.

These Israeli Zionists religiously believe their Jewish God has chosen them to replace the outdated European colonialism with a new form of colonialism, so well disguised that it will enable them to deceive the African masses into submitting willingly to their “divine” authority and guidance, without the African masses being aware that they are still colonized.

CAMOUFLAGE

The Israeli Zionists are convinced they have successfully camouflaged their new kind of colonialism. Their colonialism appears to be more “benevolent,” more “philanthropic,” a system with which they rule simply by getting their potential victims to accept their friendly offers of economic “aid,” and other tempting gifts, that they dangle in front of the newly-independent African nations, whose economies are experiencing great difficulties. During the 19th century, when the masses here in Africa were largely illiterate it was easy for European imperialists to rule them with “force and fear,” but in this present era of enlightenment the African masses are awakening, and it is impossible to hold them in check now with the antiquated methods of the 19th century.

The imperialists, therefore, have been compelled to devise new methods. Since they can no longer force or frighten the masses into submission, they must devise modern methods that will enable them to manouevre the African masses into willing submission.

The modern 20th century weapon of neo-imperialism is “dollarism.” The Zionists have mastered the science of dollarism: the ability to come posing as a friend and benefactor, bearing gifts and all other forms of economic aid and offers of technical assistance. Thus, the power and influence of Zionist Israel in many of the newly “independent” African nations has fast-become even more unshakeable than that of the 18th century European colonialists… and this new kind of Zionist colonialism differs only in form and method, but never in motive or objective.

At the close of the 19th century when European imperialists wisely foresaw that the awakening masses of Africa would not submit to their old method of ruling through force and fears, these ever-scheming imperialists had to create a “new weapon,” and to find a “new base” for that weapon.

DOLLARISM

The number one weapon of 20th century imperialism is zionist dollarism, and one of the main bases for this weapon is Zionist Israel. The ever-scheming European imperialists wisely placed Israel where she could geographically divide the Arab world, infiltrate and sow the seed of dissension among African leaders and also divide the Africans against the Asians.

Zionist Israel’s occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments, making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people.

And the continued low standard of living in the Arab world has been skillfully used by the Zionist propagandists to make it appear to the Africans that the Arab leaders are not intellectually or technically qualified to lift the living standard of their people … thus, indirectly “enducing” Africans to turn away from the Arabs and towards the Israelis for teachers and technical assistance.

“They cripple the bird’s wing, and then condemn it for not flying as fast as they.”

The imperialists always make themselves look good, but it is only because they are competing against economically crippled newly independent countries whose economies are actually crippled by the Zionist-capitalist conspiracy. They can’t stand against fair competition, thus they dread Gamal Abdul Nasser’s call for African-Arab Unity under Socialism.

MESSIAH?

If the “religious” claim of the Zionists is true that they were to be led to the promised land by their messiah, and Israel’s present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of that prophesy: where is their messiah whom their prophets said would get the credit for leading them there? It was Ralph Bunche who “negotiated” the Zionists into possession of Occupied Palestine! Is Ralph Bunche the messiah of Zionism? If Ralph Bunche is not their messiah, and their messsiah has not yet come, then what are they doing in Palestine ahead of their messiah?

Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the “religious” claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago? Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain. Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula, drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation … where Spain used to be, as the European zionists have done to our Arab brothers and sisters in Palestine?…

In short the Zionist argument to justify Israel’s present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history … not even in their own religion. Where is their Messiah?

27 Howie 03.06.08 at 12:07 am

Salma-

I think you ask a fair and reasonable question…let me try to answer coherently;

1. Learn something about the geography and population centers of Israel…The VAST majority of “settlements” is primarily the nature growth of major centers like Jerusalem…these are suburbs. I know you have a image of wild-eyed bearded Jews running around with Uzi’s, but that is miles from the truth. The “settlements” that you talk about are places like Hebron with like 500 Jews in the town. Many other settlements are right near Jewish populations centers and not in the middle of the West Bank…so that is a distorted propoganda tool.

Prisoners? Prisoners are a major pain in the ass. It is a huge security problem and very expensive. Many prisoners are criminals and terrorists with blood on their hands…they have committed MURDER Salaam…what should we do…ask them to apologize?

Yes…some tend to be political prisoners…but taking and keeping these guys is not a hobby, it is a huge drain on the country.

I am not being sarcastic here at all, I am trying to give you an honest answer…The entire “settlement” population would be probably less than 1-2% of Israel if you deduct the Jerusalem suburbs… It is more of a political tool…used by BOTH sides.

Salaam-…

If they would just stop trying to kill us over and over and over again…I would give a bunch of it back. I was for the returning of Gaza..still am basically, but this was greeted with rocket fire. What country can allow that.

And in terms of civilian deaths…

1. Does Hamas have a standard uniform for its soldiers?

2. Does it fight a front based war?

3. Does it dress like civilians and blend in with the civilian population?

Answer that honestly and you will understand why there are higher numbers of civilian deaths.

As for our friend Nazi…he said “dick”…Very clever…please note the types that are supporting the Palestinian side in this argument…Maybe that is at least part of the problem?

Salaa-

If the Palestinians would be good neighbors, we could turn that part of the world into a paradise. But they have been very very very bad neighbors…over and over and over again.

28 Drima 03.06.08 at 2:32 am

Craig,

“Do you think anything will be different next year, with a different President?”

Yup I really do believe things can be different. I’ve got a post coming up on the candidates and the direction they’ll take America’s foreign policy.

Hi Salma and thanks for your question,

“if israelis are the peace loving people in this conflict , did u ask yourself why they always building new settelments”

There are peace loving people on *both* sides of this conflict, so please don’t misunderstand and get the wrong impression. Palestinians as a people are the number one victims in this conflict although sadly a huge bunch of them have become seriously manipulated by Hamas’s propaganda. As for the settlements, if you’ve been a long time reader (read the “About Drima” section), you’d know I’m very opposed to them no matter how they’re excused because ultimately they don’t give Palestinians the impression that Israel is interested in peace. Talking peace and continuing to build those settlements is hypocritical. However, I do believe Israelis can compromise and hand the land back if they feel there’s a good chance for peace happening. Remember that they gave back all of gigantic Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace. Israel will just have to deal with those crazy, super passionate Zionist settlers who’ll cause a lot of havoc.

29 Drima 03.06.08 at 2:33 am

GUYS! Please do me a favor, ignore the trolls.

30 Drima 03.06.08 at 3:07 am

Btw, Mr. “Zionism=Racism=Nazism”,

spitting out insults isn’t going to make it easier to convince others of your arguments. If you’re doing it for the sake of pure self-satisfaction then it’s pretty childish. If you’re annoyed, then chill out and try saying something coherent.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

31 Drima 03.06.08 at 3:41 am

For those who strongly disagree with my post, I understand quite well where many of you are coming from, and so I ask you to check out Ray Hanania’s article. Unlike me, Ray is a Palestinian:

You can’t just blame one side for Gaza killings

32 Howie 03.06.08 at 5:31 am

Drima-

I read Ray’s article…I agree with some points in principle…others are way off…

Again…it is the tired argument of moral equivalency and it just does not fly here…

As I said…if Hamas wore uniforms and did not hide among the civilian population, then that argument might hold more weight.

But I would like to ask Ray this; If Hamas had much much mightier firepower…how might they use it?

A. Proportionately and in an inexcessive manner

B. Aim it right at the nearest or better, furthest schoolhouse

Hmmm…tough question.

Excessive force…killing a Gazan civilian is exactly the same as killing the Israeli? How?

If Hamas was shooting at a soldier and hit a kid…I could start to buy into that argument. But Palestinian terrorism has almost exclusively sought out civilian, even non-Israeli targets…

You can push that argument…but it is a very very poor argument.

Be a good neighbor…which you never have…and good things can happen…choose violence, threats, gloating and then whining…well…then you deserve violence in return…

And let’s not forget that Israel had withdrawn from Gaza and got rockets for the effort…

No…I don’t buy the “both sides are guilty” stuff. Decent try Ray…but short of the mark

33 Drima 03.06.08 at 5:46 am

It’s easy to notice that Ray is trying to draw a symmetry between what both sides do which I believe is simplistic. However, as a Palestinian, the fact that he places significant responsibility on Hamas’s shoulders is something very noteworthy.

Personally, I’m tired of how Hamas is let off the hook and treated like a completely blameless entity. My main goal is debunking the popular myth that Hamas is a “noble resistance”, something that unfortunately too many people believe.

34 Howie 03.06.08 at 5:58 am

Drima-

I admire Ray’s effort to stand away from the party line. I would not expect him to jump up and down and cheer each missile that plunges into Gaza…I fully feel Ray is making an effort at some objectivity and I appreciate that.

But the symmetry argument has to be exposed for what it is…a rationalization…

Drima…sometimes there really is a right and wrong…even when that is painful…

Hamas is wrong…they got Gaza which should have been the platform for a complete reversal of direction. They should have made a model of their behavior and shown how they could be moral and good neighbors…But truth be told…it was a riot from day one…they never changed their “death to Israel” rheteroic nor did they change their charter which is still pissed off at the Lions Club of America…nor did they lift a finger to stop terror. And now, what 2-3 years later, Israel finally says…THAT’S IT…and that is exactly what Israel should say and the world should scream; Hamas…you fucked your own people…you fucked an historic opportunity to make the world a better place. You turned a turning point into horror and death. Nice job.

How is that that people cannot see that?

Sorry…on this one…100% of the blame on Hamas and its ilk…no gray area for me on this one.

35 Amru 03.06.08 at 7:20 am

Am I the only one here that finds it extremely interesting that the focus has been lifted from the massacre Israel is committing in Gaza and shifted towards blaming Palestinians. Doesn’t this remind you of how the Nazi’s blamed the Jewish populations of Europe for their own demise? My hat goes off to the Israeli Foreign Ministry that has made it its number one task to conduct counter PR for it’s negative image in the world in regards to their massacre of innocent civilians, with the criminal rate of massacring innocent civilians Israel will need more than just a white washing PR campaign. Yesterday a toddler 20 days old, named Amira was shot and killed by IDF bullets and some have the audacity to come here and claim self defense. Maybe she was to grow up and make fuel for the rockets, Israel must defend itself you know.

What does Israel expect to happen when a child sits there mourning the death of his father, brother, sisters and niece?
It will expect to call him a terrorist in a couple of years.
I can understand trying to defend yourself and country by making excuses for your Armed forces but to turn a blind eye to this excessive use of force makes you implicit as well.

The home made missiles argument is not only weak it’s shameful. Haven’t you ever stopped for a second and asked yourself why they are still being shot towards Israel? Have you ever asked yourself about the targeted assassinations, the incursions, the blockades, closure of Gaza and the imprisonment of it’s people within its borders, the apartheid wall being built as a land grab, the annexation of Jerusalem, the continuation of settlement building/expansion on Palestinian land and the kidnapping (I will not use the term arrest) of Palestinian citizens and politicians by the IDF, just to name a few. So you expect Palestinians not have any form of resistance to the occupation, they should just roll over and take it!?!

This whole “Hamas” is to blame is no different than the Nazi’s “It’s the Jews to blame” or the American “It’s the weapons of mass destruction” argument that turned Iraq into a hellhole. Don’t get me wrong, Hamas is not an Angelic movement free of guilt nor am I a supporter of its failed policies but to say what is happening in Gaza today is only because of them is a LIE. This is what Israel has been doing to Palestinians for the past 60 years, let me quote Israels PM to help refresh your memory:

David Ben Gurion (Israel’s First PM, 1948-1954)

* Quote: “We must expel Arabs and take their places.” (Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985)

… boy did he/they not only succeed but they managed to convince a lot of people in the world even some mis-guided Muslims/Arabs that this is Israel’s right…

Shalom

The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust.

P.S
Dirma I just read your reply to the other post, I will comment on it once I return home.

36 suzanne 03.06.08 at 8:03 am

“taken from The Egyptian Gazette — Sept. 17, 1964″

Well… I trust an autobiography published in the west more than an egyptian newspaper.

You know why?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisk-the-curious-case-of-the-forged-biography-776775.html

Especially the tone of the article is nothing like Malcolm X.

37 suzanne 03.06.08 at 8:10 am

@Amru, I can be short on this one. We are not blaming Palestinians. We are blaming Hamas and the likes.

As Andrew Brehm earlier said. When talking about WWII and saying “the Germans did this” it is not the whole German population being meant, but those who did and/or supported the atrocities.

Let that be clear.

38 suzanne 03.06.08 at 8:23 am

@Amru,… this is one of the reasons why Israelis dont love Hamas and the likes:

1) Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV and PalMedia Website called upon civilians to form a human shield at the home of Abu al-Hatal in the Sajaiya neighborhood (in Al-Sha’af according to other version) because the IDF had threatened to blow it up (March 1).
http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/tv-shot.jpg
(Al-Aqsa TV, March 1 - The inscription reads: “Hamas calls upon on [the Palestinian] public to come to the house of Abu al-Hatal in al-Sha’af [neighborhood] to act as human shields” (Al-Aqsa TV, March 1).

2) Al-Aqsa TV called upon the Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip to go to the house of shaheed Othman al-Ruziana to protect it because the IDF was threatening to blow it up (February 29).

3) Al-Aqsa TV called upon the residents of Khan Yunis to gather at the house of Ma’amoun Abu ‘Amer because the IDF was threatening to blow it up (February 28). An hour later dozens of Palestinians from Khan Yunis were reported to have gathered on the roof of Abu ‘Amer’s house to serve as human shields to prevent the house from being hit (Pal-today Website, February 28) .

4) Al-Aqsa TV called upon Palestinians in the northern Gaza Strip to go to the house of shaheed Musab al-Ja’abir to protect it because Israel was threatening to blow it up (February 29).

5) The PIJ’s Radio Sawt al-Quds called upon civilian to gather around the house of Fawzi Abu al-Hamed in the Absan al-Kabira region to prevent it from being blown up by the IDF (March 1).

39 suzanne 03.06.08 at 8:49 am

Also @Amru,

You are using the term homemade rockets. When you think of homemade rockets you think of something like this:
http://www.sciencetoymaker.org/airRocket/images/guyLauncher.JPG

Rather than this:
http://hashmonean.com/images/aksa207.jpg

stuffed with lose bullets like these:
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/KatyushaShrapnel02.jpg

which can do this:
http://canberra.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Data/116021.jpg

And if you think these rockets only harm Jews, you are wrong:
http://www.bostonnow.com/news/world/2008/02/28/rockets-strike-israel-campus-killing-1
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/87982/woman_killed_in_sderot_israel_was_muslim.html

But of course the idea is that israelis do not give a fuck about palestinians.

How to explain this, then?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Two+premature+Palestinian+babies+treated+at++Barzilai+Hospital+3-M.htm

40 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:43 am

“Am I the only one here that finds it extremely interesting that the focus has been lifted from the massacre Israel is committing in Gaza and shifted towards blaming Palestinians.”

Well, USUALLY the Jews would be blamed. Unless the people discussing the matter are not anti-Semites.

“Doesn’t this remind you of how the Nazi’s blamed the Jewish populations of Europe for their own demise?”

You might be surprised to learn that the Jews in Europe did not try to exterminate the Germans, did not shell German kindergartens, and did not show vile anti-German propaganda on their television stations.

Maybe you didn’t know that.

41 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:47 am

“The home made missiles argument is not only weak it’s shameful. Haven’t you ever stopped for a second and asked yourself why they are still being shot towards Israel?”

No. Hamas have answered that. They want to exterminate the Jews. Haven’t you seen their television announcements?

42 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:50 am

Amru, you REALLY need to study more.

“We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.

* Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Fabricating Israeli History: The ‘New Historians (2000) by Efraim Karsh
* This was extensively quoted as “[We] must expel Arabs and take their places” after appearing in this form in The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (1987) by Benny Morris, p. 25.”

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

It seems like any and all information you have about Israel is fabricated.

Can you not learn what happened and then come back when you have some knowledge?

It’s getting ridiculous.

Don’t you realise that the reason we “blame the Palestinians” and not Israel is that we simply spent some time READING what actually happened?

43 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:54 am

Something Ben Gurion really did say:

“Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

* Israel’s Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)”

Amru,

It sounds cynical when you end your posts with “Shalom” while mis-quoting Zionist leaders and using those lies about them as “arguments” against Zionism.

I suggest you either learn more about Zionism and the history of Israel (in the “Shalom” spirit), or you stop saying “Shalom” because anti-Semitic lies as arguments against Zionism has nothing to do with peace.

44 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 9:57 am

I will only comment on Amru’s so-called quote of Ben-Gurion:

“We do not wish and do not need to expel Arabs and take their places.” - From a letter Ben-Gurion wrote to his son Amos, 1937

45 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:07 am

“Ray Hanania’s article.”

I bought his DVD.

He is funny, but the sound quality is awful.

Charly Warady has this ongoing joke in his podcast “Israelisms”, where he constantly confuses his friend Ray Hanania with the Hamas “prime minister” Haniye. This usually results in rather interesting conversations when Haniye said something on television and Charly claims that he hadn’t mentioned that when they had dinner two days ago. (You would assume he would have mentioned something like that.)

46 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:08 am

“The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust.”

As is the Arab alliance that tried to destroy Israel in 1948 and 1967.

It’s funny that you would bring up the Pharaoh. Do you notice how all the powerful empires that attack the Jews have died or are dying?

I don’t know if you are religious. But if you are, read the Quran Sura 5 (I think it is). It will tell you that G-d made a special compact with the Jews (and commanded them to live in the holy land).

Now that’s not necessarily true. It’s just something people believe to be true. Jews believe it, Christians believe it, Zoroastrians believe it, and the Quran says it.

It’s not a real argument for Israel, except in religious circles, but now that you are bringing up Egypt, it might perhaps be worth it to study that a bit more.

Maybe it is true.

Do you remember what happened to the Roman Empire after it had attacked Israel and Jerusalem, renamed them “Palestine” and “Aelia Capitolina”. The name Aelia Capitolina died out, but Israel’s enemies are still using the term “Palestine” for the land. But the Roman Empire has gone.

Religion, it is said, is at the root of terrible wars. But in this case, religion would end the war; if people believed.

47 Amru 03.06.08 at 10:19 am

Andrew Brehm, your mentality is a prime example of why peace between us will not be that easy. You have made less of my arguments using a fallacious argument that I’m not well educated about the conflict and therefore I need to be educated before discussing this matter. I’m sorry to tell you, that I am well versed in the conflict but unlike you I’m willing to listen to the other side and evaluate their arguments. I don’t just bombard the place with material from my school of thought and discredit everything else. I don’t have my head inserted in the ground ‘like you’ not willing to except anything other than what my Zionist peers have told me. As a Zionist you DO wish to EXPEL all Arabs as quoted by your first PM and your history from the date of your creation stands witness.

You are not looking for peace, you are only looking for a solution based on your terms and conditions; and this will never lead to a just peace where both Israeli and Palestinian children can harvest its fruits. And stop with this “ARABS don’t want peace” crap you’ve been circulating. Have you heard of the Arab Peace Initiative? But why would you even consider it, since you have the US to bully everyone else for you and discredit the UN.

I’m also tired of people using peace with Egypt as in example since Sadat realized he was in war with the US and it’s allies not just Israel, a war he can not afford nor win. It was a peace between governments which should help explain the no-peace situation between the Egyptian MASSES and Israel.

I find it beyond SAD that hatred can blind both sides of the conflict that they both fail to see the humanity of the other. Fortunately not all of us are blinded and many of us want a just peace that will allow all our children to grow. Until then Andrew try taking your head out of the dirt and look around you.

48 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:20 am

ZionistvsNazi,

Malcom X said many stupid things in his life. The reason he is regarded as a great black leader is because he realised it (and was eventually murdered by those who felt betrayed by him):

“I did many things as a Muslim that I’m sorry for now. I was a zombie then — like all Muslims — I was hypnotized, pointed in a certain direction and told to march. Well, I guess a man’s entitled to make a fool of himself if he’s ready to pay the cost. It cost me 12 years. That was a bad scene, brother. The sickness and madness of those days — I’m glad to be free of them.”

(Note he was referring specifically to the type of Muslim he was in the past, a “black Muslim” if you will.)

It is again a matter here of you being ignorant and not realising the extent of your ignorance.

I am sure that everybody else here knows about Malcom X’ life and that only you read about it until you found what you needed and then decided he was on your side (and hence you respect him).

Do you still respect him now that you have learned that he considered his positions sick and mad and that he was like a zombie when he held them?

And how many do you think claim to support anti-Semitic positions because they are afraid that they too be killed if they change their mind?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/19/arts/design/19malccut.html?pagewanted=print

I agree with you that Malcolm X was a great man. I disagree with you that he was great because he hated Jews. I think that he was great because he overcame his hatred, admitted his mistakes, and tried to repair.

The fact that he finally died for his beliefs only adds to the legend he ultimately was.

49 Amru 03.06.08 at 10:21 am

And Andrew once more;

“The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust.”

50 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:23 am

More about Malcolm X:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/elder012999.asp

51 Amru 03.06.08 at 10:24 am

As for the quote, take up the mater with the Oxford University Press.

SHALOM

52 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:27 am

“The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust.”

Yes, Amru.

I know that. As I have said. And I truly believe that that will happen to anyone who tries to destroy Israel.

Repeat it as often as you like. It’s a Zionist motto. If this were a newsgroup, I would put it in my signature.

53 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:30 am

And Amru,

“As a Zionist you DO wish to EXPEL all Arabs as quoted by your first PM and your history from the date of your creation stands witness.”

You are uneducated, because you use falsified quotes AND don’t care if you are being corrected.

You talk of blind hatred and not listening to the other side?

And then you feel the need to use made-up quotes?

THIS quote is real and is from the same decade as Ben Gurion’s:

“Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honour. God is with you.”

Care to find out who said it and where?

Guess what reaction it provoked in Israel?

54 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:36 am

“As for the quote, take up the matter with the Oxford University Press.”

I don’t have the book and don’t know whether he was misquoted in it or not.

Also, publishers are not really responsible for their authors’ works.

Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” is being published, today, by the Bavarian government. Do you think I have to take up the matter of the odd lie in the book with the Bavarian prime minister?

55 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:40 am

“And stop with this “ARABS don’t want peace” crap you’ve been circulating.”

I will stop with it once Hamas and the PLO do.

“Have you heard of the Arab Peace Initiative?”

Yes. It’s what Israel has offered in 1948 and 1967.

Why is it now an “Arab initiative”? It’s an Israeli initiative the Arabs rejected several times.

THAT’S why I believe they don’t really want peace.

If the Arabs wanted peace, all they had to do was NOT attack Israel in 1948. And there would have been peace.

Why do I think that people who attack a country and want to destroy it and kill all the Jews don’t want peace? Can you not figure it out?

56 Amru 03.06.08 at 10:42 am

So now I’m the one that falsified the quote, very interesting. I do stand to be corrected after I research the matter further more, until then I stand by my sources and you can stand by yours… calling me uneducated will not help advance your argument

Until then my two (long) replies above still stand, side-tracking and fallacies have so far not helped you any. Till then you can keep your Zionist head as deep in the ground as you please.

Shalom

57 suzanne 03.06.08 at 10:49 am

Adding to Andrew’s remark about the Quran (he means these Sura):

[5:19] O people of the scripture, our messenger has come to you, to explain things to you, after a period of time without messengers, lest you say, “We did not receive any preacher or warner.” A preacher and warner has now come to you. GOD is Omnipotent.

[5:20] Recall that Moses said to his people, “O my people, remember GOD’s blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people.

[5:21] “O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers.”

[5:22] They said, “O Moses, there are powerful people in it, and we will not enter it, unless they get out of it. If they get out, we are entering.”

[5:23] Two men who were reverent and blessed by GOD said, “Just enter the gate. If you just enter it, you will surely prevail. You must trust in GOD, if you are believers.”

58 Amru 03.06.08 at 10:51 am

“If the Arabs wanted peace, all they had to do was NOT attack Israel in 1948. And there would have been peace.”

Simple because Israel was created on ARAB land, why don’t you go back and revise The Balfour Declaration. Interesting enough the same declaration that gave you the right to exist on other people’s land to compensate Jews for the suffering endured by the West. so expected them to do what? Of course they will fight and unfortunately for them you being backed US, UK and their western allies thats why they never stood a chance and don’t stand a chance till today.

Listen Andrew, I’m seriously not interested in getting sidetracked and going about in circles.

Shalom

59 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:53 am

“So now I’m the one that falsified the quote, very interesting.”

I said you use made-up quotes, not that you falsified them.

“I do stand to be corrected after I research the matter further more, until then I stand by my sources and you can stand by yours… calling me uneducated will not help advance your argument”

Do you even have the source or are you relying on some other anti-Semite, like his Web site or an article?

Why don’t you do the research you speak about BEFORE you make claims? A made-up quote is not an argument, not even for such time as it takes for you to find out the truth.

60 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:55 am

“Simple because Israel was created on ARAB land”

It wasn’t Arab land. It was British land and before that it was Turkish land.

It was originally Jewish land and is now again Jewish land.

The only claim the Arabs have to had was that they too once invaded, like the Romans, the Turks, and the British.

Perhaps it is Italian land?

61 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 10:58 am

Oh, and Amru:

Israel was not backed by the US (or the west) before 1967. The Arabs, however, were backed by the Soviet Union.

The Balfour declaration was made before WW2 and has nothing to do with supposed suffering of Jews in the west.

Once Israel was created it did become a save haven for Jews, though not for western Jews but for Arab and Russian Jews.

You SERIOUSLY need to learn about the history of Israel.

I suggest go travel to Israel and learn.

62 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 11:00 am

“Of course they will fight and unfortunately for them you being backed US, UK and their western allies thats why they never stood a chance and don’t stand a chance till today.”

You also need to learn about the wars between Israel and the invaders.

It’s a miracle that Israel survived the onslaught.

63 suzanne 03.06.08 at 11:02 am

@Amru, I’m sorry, but as a listener you do not seem to listen very well.
Furthermore you start entering this blog with name-calling, using dubious terms and when corrected or mentioned, you just said that commenting on it is unjustified, rather than explaining why exactly those comments would have been unjustified.

I’m sure you’re capable of having an open and reasonable discussion. But stand corrected when good arguments “bomb away” your statements. We (as in: the ones disagreeing with you) will do that visa versa as well, if necessary.

Looking forward to your next post.

64 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:04 am

I did my research on the above quote and have the sources to it, I don’t just quote. But since I’m reading claims that this might be false I’m willing to research it some more. It’s okay I don’t expect you to understand since your type of thinking and debating is only ONE WAY

Listen to yourself, British land in the MIDDLE EAST! lol Of course it is! And the orginal inhabitants are Sir Zionist and Lady Zionista.

I rest my case. You are not only a blind and deaf Zionist you are very confused Zionist and for that matter a very ignorant one.

Shalom

65 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:09 am

suzanne, can you please tell me where I didn’t listen or use name calling? Also please provide me with the argument that bombed away my arguments? And where did I say commenting on anything is not justified, just so that we can be on the same page.

66 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 11:18 am

“Listen to yourself, British land in the MIDDLE EAST!”

Why not. The British can invade any land, just like the Arabs.

“But since I’m reading claims that this might be false I’m willing to research it some more.”

Well do go ahead.

Check your source. Maybe you will notice that it is just a big collection of similar anti-Semitic lies.

May I ask what your source was, if it was not the book? Might be worth it to buy the book if you want to quote it.

67 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:20 am

So what you are saying that the Jews never lived in ghettos and were mis-treated in almost each and every European country they lived in? They were treated as equals and enjoyed an excellent livelihood up until WWII. At the same time Israel since it’s creation never received any help from the Western Nations it just managed all on its own? Interesting! And you claim I’m uneducated…

When I said lets not get sidetracked I was referring to the TOPIC IS THE GAZA MASSACRE.

68 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:23 am

So what you are saying that the Jews never lived in ghettos and were never mis-treated in almost each and every European country they lived in? They were treated as equals and enjoyed an excellent livelihood up until WWII. At the same time Israel since it’s creation never received any help from the Western Nations it just managed all on its own? Interesting! And you claim I’m uneducated…

When I said lets not get sidetracked I was referring to the TOPIC IS THE GAZA MASSACRE.

69 suzanne 03.06.08 at 11:30 am

The topic is The GAZA-ISRAEL “Circus”.

Massacre is something you mentioned. Using incorrect terms. Yet again.

70 suzanne 03.06.08 at 11:35 am

And yes, the Brits had a mandate over “Palestine (including what’s now called Jordan)” - a province of former Ottoman empire. Called like this due to the Romans who called the area Palestine to annoy the Jewish population because of their old enemy “Filistines”.

Furthermore. If you mention a quote, it’s usually nice to show where you got it from. Not always necessary, but in cases like this, it would be useful as there is a discrepancy between your version of the quote of ben gurion and Andrew Brehms.

71 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:39 am

Alright then, I was referring to the TOPIC of my post within this article and I believe I did use the correct term MASSACRE because I don’t agree with most people who wish to claim it a Holocaust I’ll leave that to the Israeli deputy defense minister

Shalom

72 Amru 03.06.08 at 11:48 am

Read the book Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985 or visit these quick links for some more quotes :

http://www.indymedia.org/en/2005/12/830291.shtml

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/01/31/44937.html

73 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 11:57 am

As a Zionist you DO wish to EXPEL all Arabs as quoted by your first PM and your history from the date of your creation stands witness.

Thank you, Amru, for proving just how unbiased you are, and impartial, and not trying to throw demonizing propaganda around at all.

As for your supposed Ben-Gurion quote, it is taken from Benny Morris’ first edition of The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem(1988). In the 2004 edition - The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, and in Righteous Victims, a history of the Zionist-Arab Conflict (1999), the quoted letter is written in its correct form (as several had complained to Morris about him misquoting the letter in the first book).

Of course, the best way to verify the letter is to just go to Ben-Gurion’s old house in Sde-Boker, in the Negev. The quoted letter is not, in fact, the letter that was sent - but rather a draft of the letter that was sent letter. His son didn’t keep the letter in question, apparently.

Benny Morris, by the way, is an Israeli. Just saying.

As for Arab peace initiatives… until 1967, the rhetoric of Arab leaders regarding Israel was consistently one of destruction. Post-1967 reality saw an “improvement”, in that now the Arab League spoke in terms of never talking with Israel (this was in response to the peace talks offered by Israel immediately after the war ended).

Since then, the so-called Saudi Peace Initiative did indeed mirror the the exact same offer Israel gave in 1967, only forty years later the reality in the field has unsurprisingly changed somewhat. Furthermore, the current draft includes talk-killers - in the form of demanding that Israel absorb Palestinian refugees into Israel-proper, effectively inserting into Israeli territory a large hostile population, making the Jewish population a minority and thus bringing about an end to their sovereignty in short order, either by way of civil-war or by war of attempting to combine the new Palestine with the old Israel (now becoming Palestine with a Jewish minority) - which would also result in civil war. The second talk-killer is the Syrian entry into the draft, which demands an immediate and unconditional return of the Golan Heights to Syria - not something viewed with amusement by Israelis, as we remember it all too well as territory used as war grounds to shell and attack Israel. Syria will have to, at the very least, get used to the fact that the Golan will have to be a demilitarized zone under joint management for the near future - not that Israelis trust Assad much, he doesn’t seem like a trustworthy peace partner in any sense of the word.

Malcom X said many stupid things in his life. The reason he is regarded as a great black leader is because he realised it (and was eventually murdered by those who felt betrayed by him):

“I did many things as a Muslim that I’m sorry for now. I was a zombie then — like all Muslims — I was hypnotized, pointed in a certain direction and told to march. Well, I guess a man’s entitled to make a fool of himself if he’s ready to pay the cost. It cost me 12 years. That was a bad scene, brother. The sickness and madness of those days — I’m glad to be free of them.”

(Note he was referring specifically to the type of Muslim he was in the past, a “black Muslim” if you will.)

Malcolm X started out in the Nation of Islam - less a Muslim group and more a supremacist group. It is likely that they were the ones who killed him in the end, as in the final days in his life he had did his best to sever all ties with them, and with the man he used to be. Malcolm X used to be a bigot and a racist, much like all members of Nation of Islam. He saw whites as enemies, and preached the same anti-Semitism that Nation of Islam spreads to this day.

Malcolm X changed, though. It’s a shame that change ended up killing him in the end.

74 Amru 03.06.08 at 12:19 pm

Roman, the above statement is very true in it’s historic context, I’m sorry you view it as being biased.

Now we can move towards a constructive debate. So you agree that these refugees were evicted from their lands or had to leave it due to the Israeli-Arab wars? If so, isn’t it only natural for them to return to their lands, especially if Israel is as FREE and DEMOCRATIC as it claims to be? This is not a talk-killer, this is an essential right to the refugees that will allow for a long lasting peace. It is enough that Israel has been created on their lands, but not allowing them to return is criminal and strips them of their human rights. Asking other countries to take them in is also a violation to their rights of return. For example what would you think if the Sudanese government tomorrow decided that all refugees out of Darfur will not be allowed back to their homes because they will destabilize the Arab demographics?
As for the Golan heights, it’s an occupied land as was the Sinai Peninsula that was also used to mount attacks on Israel. It must be returned and I agree with you it must be demilitarized but i definitely do not agree on the joint administration part as that would infringe on Syrian sovereignty.
At the end of the day we aspire for a just peace, even if that means dissolving both Israel and Palestine into a single nation that respects both populations.

Shalom

75 Amru 03.06.08 at 12:23 pm

On the quote, unless the original letter is produced I believe we can go in circles about this till judgment day.

Since there is so much surrounding it, it’s only logical that I research it some more before using it again. I appreciate the additional information.

76 Amru 03.06.08 at 12:24 pm

On the quote, unless the original letter is produced I believe we can go in circles about this till judgment day.

Since there is so much controversy surrounding it, it’s only logical that I research it some more before using it again. I appreciate the additional information.

77 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 12:24 pm

Listen to yourself, British land in the MIDDLE EAST! lol Of course it is! And the orginal inhabitants are Sir Zionist and Lady Zionista.

Or rather, the entire Middle-East is Arab Land, and it never had anyone other than Arabs in it, right?

Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.

At the same time Israel since it’s creation never received any help from the Western Nations it just managed all on its own? Interesting! And you claim I’m uneducated…

Read a history book. Particularly noteworthy is comparing the Arab armies and the newly-founded Israeli army in 1948. The Israeli army consisted of 4 active airplanes, no tanks, a score of armored vehicles, a scattering of small-scale anti-tank weaponry left by the British as they left the country, and about a single machine-gun per sector. The Israeli army was producing submachine-guns out of inferior metal and using stolen British plans in a desperate attempt to get some actual weaponry, as well as purchasing rifles from gun-dealers in Poland.

Whereas the Arab armies had real armor, and air-force that routinely went on strafing and bombing runs, and an over-abundance of weaponry.

The situation after 1948 changed little. Many Arab states aligned directly with the Soviet Union, purchasing arms far superior to those of the small Israeli state. Until 1967, Israel made arms purchases mainly from France and Britian - often discovering that Soviet arms were far more suitable to middle-eastern terrain than anything made by, say, Britian (the FN-FALs were a total failure). The only noteworthy success was in buying old Sherman tanks (following the lifting of the US arms sale embargo on the Middle-East) and converting them into Super Shermans by installing high-velocity guns on them once used on the German Panther tanks. The French Mirage fighters also weren’t bad, but MIGs still came at a decidedly faster rate - and of newer generations than anything Israel owned.

That Israel managed to defeat the pan-Arab war machine in 1967 only proves yet again that superiority in numbers and armament doesn’t mean victory - strategic thinking can still win the day.

Actual Western (US) support to Israel came in 1973, when Israel first received a goodwill arms shipment from the US during the Yom Kippur War.

78 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 12:30 pm

Roman,

Isn’t it strange how anti-Semites always claim that Zionists believe X and Y while Zionists first hear of those beliefs from non-Zionists?

I have heard, here on this blog, that I, as a Zionist, want to

a) expand Israel to the Nile and Euphrates.

b) destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque.

c) expel Arabs from Israel.

Well, here are my actual positions regarding those:

a) I don’t think country that size could be run effectively; not by Jews anyhow.

b) I like the Al-Aqsa mosque. I believe the mosque is the only reason nationalist Arabs did not destroy what remains of the Temple and I believe that Muslims built the mosque because it is the site of Allah’s temple. That’s why Jerusalem is “the holy” in Arab legend. I also believe that the mosque was built to protect the site from vandalism. Destroy this, it says, and you will have made both Jews and Muslims your enemies.

c) Like the mayor of Haifa in 1948 I am in favour of Israeli Arabs staying in Israel and defending the country. I was very impressed by the Druze I met and have met many Israeli Arabs, including those that I shared a university dorm with in Haifa, who struck me as genuine Muslims and really educated people. (And now, they have no problem with interacting with Jews.) I am well aware of Israeli Arabs who have done so much to defend Israel and I think the world owes them for their fighting against terrorism on the foremost front.

79 suzanne 03.06.08 at 12:32 pm

Amru, the correct term is not massacre, but big catastrophe.

80 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 12:43 pm

“So you agree that these refugees were evicted from their lands or had to leave it due to the Israeli-Arab wars?”

No. I don’t agree that they were “evicted”.

Some were, but I do know that Arab countries called on them to leave and Israeli leaders called on them to stay.

They left.

“If so, isn’t it only natural for them to return to their lands,”

No. It’s completely unnatural, since most of them are dead. Whether anyone’s children and grandchildren have a right to return is questionable, especially since apparently nobody else does. (The Germans evicted from Poland and Russia certainly don’t have a right to return.)

It’s also no longer “their lands”. As Arabs will happily tell you the Jews lost their rights to “Palestine” at some point. Well, the Arabs did too.

“especially if Israel is as FREE and DEMOCRATIC as it claims to be? This is not a talk-killer, this is an essential right to the refugees that will allow for a long lasting peace.”

They are not refugees.

Grand children of refugees are NOT refugees. A “refugee” is somebody who fled somewhence.

Very few of the current “Palestinians” have been born in a different place than they currently live in. They are NOT refugees.

Free and democratic doesn’t mean that millions of hostile anti-Semites are allowed to come into the country and murder its population. And if you don’t think that will happen, I suggest you dress up as a Jew and walk into one of the “refugee” camps and see what happens.

Also, what about the Jewish refugees (and their grand children). They don’t want to go back to Arab countries, hence a “right to return” isn’t worth anything to them. A right to return is only valuable if you are returning to a nice place. Israel, apparently, is such a place.

Isn’t it odd that so many Arabs want to live in Israel, even though Zionists are evil?

Evil places are those that people want to leave and not return to, like Egypt and Tunisia.

And REALLY evil places are those that people want to leave and are not allowed to, like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

Israel is not one of those places.

If the Zionists are so evil, why do Arabs want to “return” to Israel? (I say “return” in quotes because the vast majority of those wanting to “return” have never been in Israel.)

Should I mount a campaign to invade Poland tomorrow? After all, they did take German lands and expelled Germans. Can I demand a right to return?

Who do you think would support my campaign?

Guess what! It’s the same people who supported the Arabs in their fight against Zionism.

81 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 12:44 pm

“On the quote, unless the original letter is produced I believe we can go in circles about this till judgment day.”

Well, there is the easy principle of “in dubio pro reo”.

It means that if you accuse somebody of something bad, you better prove it, otherwise it is assumed not to be true.

Did you check your source? Was it a collection of anti-Semitic quotes and trivia?

82 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 12:46 pm

“Amru, the correct term is not massacre”

If Jews did it, it’s a “massacre”. It doesn’t have anything to do with how many died or what exactly happened.

83 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 12:49 pm

“Or rather, the entire Middle-East is Arab Land, and it never had anyone other than Arabs in it, right?”

I claim Europe for Germany!

That’s the spirit.

DISCLAIMER: That was sarcasm. I do not really believe that Europe is German land. And I do not believe that the middle east is Arab land.

84 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 1:53 pm

Roman, the above statement is very true in it’s historic context, I’m sorry you view it as being biased.

And here and now I tell you that it isn’t true in its ‘historic context’ at all, and that you seem to rush head-on into attacking what you see as legitimate - anyone and anything that you identify as Zionist. To you, ‘Zionist’ is a swearword.

Further, you attribute to anyone you identify (or see himself identifying) as Zionist, views and notions (such as expelling people or conquering anything and everything in sight) that we can neither understand nor respect. We don’t do blind hatred around here, sorry.

Now we can move towards a constructive debate. So you agree that these refugees were evicted from their lands or had to leave it due to the Israeli-Arab wars? If so, isn’t it only natural for them to return to their lands, especially if Israel is as FREE and DEMOCRATIC as it claims to be?

Sure. Just as soon as you explain to me why their great-grandchildren count as refugees too. And while you’re at it, explain to me why a free and democratic nation would turn itself into Lebanon - a sectarian Hell. In case you haven’t noticed, Palestinians in the camps aren’t raised with a nice view of Israelis. You will essentially create a nation split down the lines of language and nationality - and this *is* a recipe for the destruction of the state.

If the Palestinians want a nation, let them build one of their own.

As for the Golan heights, it’s an occupied land as was the Sinai Peninsula that was also used to mount attacks on Israel. It must be returned and I agree with you it must be demilitarized but i definitely do not agree on the joint administration part as that would infringe on Syrian sovereignty.

Syria hasn’t bothered with respecting Israeli sovereignty in any sense of the word since the formation of Israel. It didn’t bother to respect Jordan or Lebanon much either. Joint management for a fixed period is a good way to build mutual trust, and will ensure the demilitarization of the region.

At the end of the day we aspire for a just peace, even if that means dissolving both Israel and Palestine into a single nation that respects both populations.

Most of us here don’t share these sentiments, as the Jews remember all too well what happens to Jews over the centuries when they were a minority (and this ‘dissolution’ would ensure just that), and I do not trust others to keep my rights and sovereignty - particularly when we are discussing a population currently hostile to the very presence of “European Outsiders” or “crusaders” here, as many view us in the region.

The only just solution for both populations is two states. You view the one-state solution as the preferred one because you view Israeli statehood as unjustified and irrelevant, and instead focus solely on Palestinian claims on sovereignty and land. For me, this is merely a second indication of your blinding bias.

On the quote, unless the original letter is produced I believe we can go in circles about this till judgment day.

Since there is so much surrounding it, it’s only logical that I research it some more before using it again. I appreciate the additional information.

As I said, your best solution is to come to Sde-Boker in Israel - learning Hebrew along the way, as that is the language of the letter. For me the version included by Benny Morris in his later books (and every other historian who referenced the letter, for that matter) suffices.

85 suzanne 03.06.08 at 2:29 pm

I found this talk back below an artikel in ynet appropriate to mention:

“I have a better idea Let IAI AND IMI sell smalll rockets to the population of Sderot and Ashkelon and let them fire them at Gaza .It is proportionate and Israel can say they were home made rockets.”

you think that’ll work?

problem is only that Israel has no intention to target civilians as Hamas and the likes are doing. It’s also against war ethics to do so.

On the other hand, no-one should have the right to complain any longer.

86 Drima 03.06.08 at 2:45 pm

Amru, I understand where you’re coming from and used to have the same idealist vision for the return of all refugees but let’s get real.

Israel + Return of Refugees =/= Hugs and Peace

Israel + Return of Refugees = Civil War

As for Zionism, it can be a real headache separating facts from propaganda especially when you have various versions of history available on this conflict.

I invite you to read this old post of mine. I still stand by the overall argument I made in it.

87 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 2:54 pm

“As for Zionism, it can be a real headache separating facts from propaganda”

One easy method is to let Zionists speak for Zionists.

There is a reason why people use falsified quotes to display Zionist as evil. The reason is that Zionism without falsified quotes is not evil.

People NEED the argument that Zionists want to expel Arabs, because without that feature it is difficult to argue against Zionism.

“Israel + Return of Refugees = Civil War”

Well, no. It would simply be a repeat of 1948. The Arabs will invade and try to kill the Jews.

Israel will win and the Arabs will flee again.

More death and tragedy.

88 Zionism=Racisim 03.06.08 at 3:37 pm

“Btw, Mr. “Zionism=Racism=Nazism”,

spitting out insults isn’t going to make it easier to convince others of your arguments. If you’re doing it for the sake of pure self-satisfaction then it’s pretty childish. If you’re annoyed, then chill out and try saying something coherent.

Stop embarrassing yourself.”
————-
BTW Drima if you really think you’re going to gain anything or actually change minds by this little net ‘discussion’ as it relates to the Palestine/Israel problem you’re as naive as they come……..
You sit from a position of relative comfort and pass judgement on how Palestinian’s react to the most oppressive gov’t occupier in the world…you Drima are a typical ‘educated’ person from a 3rd world country, come from a rich family and consider yourself completely enlightened, I’ve met your kind they’re a dime a dozen…you’re a clown in a minstrel show.

Who’s really embarrassing themselves?

89 Zionism=Racisim 03.06.08 at 3:46 pm

FYI:
“Gaza’s humanitarian situation is at its worst since Israel occupied the territory in 1967, say UK-based human rights and development groups.
They include Amnesty International, Save the Children, Cafod, Care International and Christian Aid.

They criticise Israel’s blockade on Gaza as illegal collective punishment which fails to deliver security. ”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7280026.stm

-Horrible living conditions directly as a result of Israeli seige, but yet it’s Hamas proaganda that has ‘entrenched the culture of hatred’?? Right Drima. GTFOH

-

90 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 3:59 pm

“Palestinian’s react to the most oppressive gov’t occupier in the world”

Hahahahahahaha!

“Horrible living conditions directly as a result of Israeli seige,”

That’s not what they are saying, Nazi.

They are saying that it was BETTER under Israeli rule (i.e. since Israel occupied it in 1967) than before. That’s what “worst since Israel occupied the territory in 1967″ means.

I am sure it’s true.

The people in Gaza have a higher living standard than Egyptians and Jordanians.

We’ll see whether it will fail to deliver security.

What we have here is a territory that was best off under Israeli rule and worst off under Egyptian rule and now Hamas rule.

91 suzanne 03.06.08 at 4:03 pm

“I invite you to read this old post of mine. I still stand by the overall argument I made in it.”

That was an excellent post of you Drima. Also the discussion afterwards I really liked.

And btw,… this post,.. you really called it correctly by saying “Circus”

92 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 4:11 pm

I think a blockade of enemy territory is only “illegal” when Jews do it.

93 suzanne 03.06.08 at 4:25 pm

About that report btw, I found this:
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/03/fisking-human-rights-organizations.html

And well. I guess Israel should reoccupy Gaza then as the Gazans were way better off.

I wouldnt mind if it just goes to Egypt.

I see more potential in a Palestinian state on the Westbank the way it is now.

94 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 5:23 pm

“I guess Israel should reoccupy Gaza then as the Gazans were way better off.”

Yes. These things are flying into the face of the “Zionists are evil” crowd.

Here we had one of them actually TELLING us that Gaza was better off during the occupation than before.

“I see more potential in a Palestinian state on the Westbank the way it is now.”

I used to support that idea (a third partition of Palestine), but lately I have been reading more articles about the Arab clans and their leaders, who apparently don’t support the PLO and their plans for a state.

I am now tending towards working something out with the sheiks and handing the rest over to Jordan, perhaps as a separate country sharing the same monarch.

Why force the Arabs in the West Bank to live under PLO or Hamas rule? The people of East-Jerusalem are signing up for Israeli passports lately, they obviously don’t want PLO rule either.

So I am thinking fourth partition of Palestine:

1. Palestine -> Cisjordan and Transjordan
2. Cisjordan -> Israel and Gaza/Westbank
3. Gaza/Westbank -> Gaza and Westbank
4. Westbank ->

a) Jewish settlements at the Israeli border will be annexed to Israel.

b) Arab settlements at the Jordanian border will have a choice between being annexed to Jordan or become independent.

c) Settlements far from the respective border will have a choice of being annexed to Israel, to Jordan, or become part of the independent state.

All this will be subject to the opinions of the clan leaders.

I have enough of the PLO, Hamas, the Arab nationalists and the like.

Let’s talk to the clans!

The West Bank as an entity will simply vanish, like in 1948, except this time Jordan won’t get all of it and the people living there will have a say.

Gaza can do whatever it likes. For all I care the Egyptians can invade it and become as rich as the Zionists by “oppressing” and “enslaving” the Gazans.

95 suzanne 03.06.08 at 5:28 pm

There are so many interesting places to visit in Westbank. But I do not dare to

96 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 5:37 pm

“There are so many interesting places to visit in Westbank. But I do not dare to”

Yepp. The people there are too peaceful and non-anti-Semitic.

97 suzanne 03.06.08 at 5:40 pm

“Most active of the new pragmatists is Sheik Mohammed Ali Ja’abari, 60, the mayor of the ancient city of Hebron in the hills southwest of Jerusalem. A former Minister of Justice under Jordan’s King Hussein, Ja’abari has spent the past two weeks trying to organize a conference of prominent Palestinians to determine just what form peace negotiations should take, and what they should lead to. His compatriots still disagree about whether to hold out for full independence, try to become part of Jordan again or accept Israeli citizenship in return for full local autonomy and Israeli economic aid. No date has yet been set for the conference, but Ja’abari expects it to appoint an Arab Palestinian to begin negotiations with the Israeli authorities. (…)
In Hebron, Mayor Ja’abari’s calls for negotiations have brought him a flood of threatening letters, the derision of Jordan’s Amman radio and an attempt to blow up his house. But neither Ja’abari nor his colleagues give much importance to the violence of their critics. “I am not afraid,” Ja’abari says. “I believe the great majority of the Palestine people want a solution, so they can live in peace. We are tired of war. We want better days for our children.” All that keeps many Palestinians from openly working with the Israelis toward that end, in fact, is uncertainty over just what will finally become of the West Bank. Afraid to cooperate too actively with the Israelis lest they be called collaborators if Jordan regains the land, they may need only a firm declaration of Israel’s intentions to make them all as pragmatic as their leaders.”

Unfortunately from an old article written in 1967. http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,837304,00.html

You can also read here:

Fresh Fish. In part, the new pragmatism stems from desperation: Palestinians no longer believe that the Jews can be driven out of Israel. But it also reflects the indisputable fact that life under the Israelis has not been as harsh as most Palestinians had feared. Money and private cars have been in short supply since the war, and the West Bank telephone system, sabotaged by the departing Jordanians, is still a shambles. But food is plentiful, including the fresh sea fish that Palestinians love and the Jordanians were unable to supply. More important, there have been no mass repressions, no raping of Arab women, no wholesale expropriations of Arab property. Palestinian businessmen have shucked their coats and ties, adopted the more comfortable Israeli practice of coming to work in their shirtsleeves. “From the very first day,” says Bethlehem’s Mayor Elias Bandak, “the Israelis and our people mixed together as old friends.”

98 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 6:04 pm

Yes, that was the situation before the PLO started the “Intifada”.

Israel should talk to the tribal leaders again and ignore the PLO. The PLO was a mistake.

99 suzanne 03.06.08 at 6:13 pm

But do you believe they would have enough power? It might led to more bloodshed - also along Palestinians themselves - as the last what people in power (which are the militants now) want, is losing it.

I consider ‘Palestine’ (Palestine as in WB and Gaza and its Palestinians) facing a same problem as Italy did (and does): both have to deal with groups who do not want to lose power and both groups do not mind to use violence to keep the power. I’m referring to the militant groups and I am referring to the Italian maffia.

If the Palestinian militants really were fighting for their people, they would have invited the Israelis around the dinner table already 40 years ago.

100 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 6:14 pm

That’s it.

Hamas and the PLO and all the other Nazis will just have to leave the Palestinians alone.

And by Palestinians I mean ALL Palestinians, Jewish and Arab.

Israel should talk to the tribes and then simply withdraw recognition from the PLO. The PLO didn’t keep their end of the peace treaty anyway, so let’s find someone who might.

They just have to be better than the PLO! A very easy demand, I think.

101 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 6:28 pm

“But do you believe they would have enough power? It might led to more bloodshed - also along Palestinians themselves - as the last what people in power (which are the militants now) want, is losing it.”

The clans don’t have enough power.

But those who did could not be trusted. Israel needs to help those who want peace. Too long the mistake was made of talking to those who could enforce peace (but didn’t want it).

Economic aid should be withdrawn from the PLO and given to the clans. I don’t expect an end of corruption, but I do expect that the clan leaders will abuse their power and make sure supplies reach those loyal to their clans.

That way the clans will become more powerful within a few years. And they won’t be in Israel’s pay, since the money will come from abroad. Let’s see if Arab funding of the PLO can compete with American and European funding of clan leaders.

Once the clans have some power, they can make sure that PLO and other terrorists won’t operate from villages loyal to the clans. Israel can then happily fight it out with the terrorists and any civilian damage will shift the balance of power even more away from the PLO to the clans.

Apart from that Israel should simply ask what the clans want and then do it. Let the clans built their little empire and let Israel do what the clans think is helpful.

However corrupt the clan leaders might become because of that, it still will be better than what the PLO always was.

The clans can also ask (not condemn) Israel to react less violently. The clans can also speak for villages and give Israel a list of villages and towns not to attack, even in retaliation. Once the clans have power over Israeli retaliation, more people will try to be on their good side.

There won’t be any open warfare for power between the clans and the PLO, but the clans will have the money, some power over Israel’s responses, and control over settlements outside the war zone.

Should the PLO take action against the clans, the PLO will have to fight against tribal traditions among the Arab population. And they are strong.

Al-Qaeda ran into the same problem in Iraq lately.

Arab nationalism is a nice thing for the urban poor, but is goes against the powers of the clans. And the sheiks don’t like losing power.

So let’s help them.

102 The Truth 03.06.08 at 7:19 pm

To blame the victims for this killing spree defies both morality and sense

March 06, 2008 By Seumas Milne
Source: Guardian

Washington’s covert attempts to overturn an election result lie behind the crisis in Gaza, as leaked papers show

The attempt by western politicians and media to present this week’s carnage in the Gaza Strip as a legitimate act of Israeli self-defence — or at best the latest phase of a wearisome conflict between two somehow equivalent sides — has reached Alice-in-Wonderland proportions. Since Israel’s deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, issued his chilling warning last week that Palestinians faced a “holocaust” if they continued to fire home-made rockets into Israel, the balance sheet of suffering has become ever clearer. More than 120 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza by Israeli forces in the past week, of whom one in five were children and more than half were civilians, according to the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem. During the same period, three Israelis were killed, two of whom were soldiers taking part in the attacks.

So what was the response of the British foreign secretary, David Miliband, to this horrific killing spree? It was to blame the “numerous civilian casualties” on the week’s “significant rise” in Palestinian rocket attacks “and the Israeli response”, condemn the firing of rockets as “terrorist acts” and defend Israel’s right to self-defence “in accordance with international law”. But of course it has been nothing of the kind — any more than has been Israel’s 40-year occupation of the Palestinian territories, its continued expansion of settlements or its refusal to allow the return of expelled refugees.

Nor is the past week’s one-sided burden of casualties and misery anything new, but the gap is certainly getting wider. After the election of Hamas two years ago, Israel — backed by the US and the European Union — imposed a punitive economic blockade, which has hardened over the past months into a full-scale siege of the Gaza Strip, including fuel, electricity and essential supplies. Since January’s mass breakout across the Egyptian border signalled that collective punishment wouldn’t work, Israel has opted for military escalation. What that means on the ground can be seen from the fact that at the height of the intifada, from 2000 to 2005, four Palestinians were killed for every Israeli; in 2006 it was 30; last year the ratio was 40 to one. In the three months since the US-sponsored Middle East peace conference at Annapolis, 323 Palestinians have been killed compared with seven Israelis, two of whom were civilians.

But the US and Europe’s response is to blame the principal victims for a crisis it has underwritten at every stage. In interviews with Palestinian leaders over the past few days, BBC presenters have insisted that Palestinian rockets have been the “starting point” of the violence, as if the occupation itself did not exist. In the West Bank, from which no rockets are currently fired and where the US-backed administration of Mahmoud Abbas maintains a ceasefire, there have been 480 Israeli military attacks over the past three months and 26 Palestinians killed. By contrast, the rockets from Gaza which are supposed to be the justification for the latest Israeli onslaught have killed a total of 14 people over seven years.

Like any other people, the Palestinians have the right to resist occupation — or to self-defence — whether they choose to exercise it or not. In spite of Israel’s disengagement in 2005, Gaza remains occupied territory, both legally and in reality. It is the world’s largest open-air prison, with land, sea and air access controlled by Israel, which carries out military operations at will. Palestinians may differ about the tactics of resistance, but the dominant view (if not that of Abbas) has long been that without some armed pressure, their negotiating hand will inevitably be weaker. And while it might be objected that the rockets are indiscriminate, that is not an easy argument for Israel to make, given its appalling record of civilian casualties in both the Palestinian territories and Lebanon.

The truth is that Hamas’s control of Gaza is the direct result of the US refusal to accept the Palestinians’ democratic choice in 2006 and its covert attempt to overthrow the elected administration by force through its Fatah placeman Muhammad Dahlan. As confirmed by secret documents leaked to the US magazine Vanity Fair — and also passed to the Guardian — George Bush, Condoleezza Rice and Elliott Abrams, the US deputy national security adviser (of Iran-Contra fame), funnelled cash, weapons and instructions to Dahlan, partly through Arab intermediaries such as Jordan and Egypt, in an effort to provoke a Palestinian civil war. As evidence of the military buildup emerged, Hamas moved to forestall the US plan with its own takeover of Gaza last June. David Wurmser, who resigned as Dick Cheney’s chief Middle East adviser the following month, argues: “What happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen.”

Yesterday, Rice attempted to defend the failed US attempt to reverse the results of the Palestinian elections by pointing to Iran’s support for Hamas. Meanwhile, Israel’s attacks on Gaza are expected to resume once she has left the region, even if no one believes they will stop the rockets. Some in the Israeli government hope that they can nevertheless weaken Hamas as a prelude to pushing Gaza into Egypt’s unwilling arms; others hope to bring Abbas and his entourage back to Gaza after they have crushed Hamas, perhaps with a transitional international force to save the Palestinian president’s face.

Neither looks a serious option, not least because Hamas cannot be crushed by force, even with the bloodbath that some envisage. The third, commonsense option, backed by 64% of Israelis, is to take up Hamas’s offer — repeated by its leader Khalid Mish’al at the weekend — and negotiate a truce. It’s a move that now attracts not only left-leaning Israeli politicians such as Yossi Beilin, but also a growing number of rightwing establishment figures, including Ariel Sharon’s former security adviser Giora Eiland, the former Mossad boss Efraim Halevy, and the ex-defence minister Shaul Mofaz.

The US, however, is resolutely opposed to negotiating with what it has long branded a terrorist organisation — or allowing anyone else to do so, including other Palestinians. As the leaked American papers confirm, Rice effectively instructed Abbas to “collapse” the joint Hamas-Fatah national unity government agreed in Mecca early last year, a decision carried out after Hamas’s pre-emptive takeover. But for the Palestinians, national unity is an absolute necessity if they are to have any chance of escaping a world of walled cantons, checkpoints, ethnically segregated roads, dispossession and humiliation.

What else can Israel do to stop the rockets, its supporters ask. The answer could not be more obvious: end the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories and negotiate a just settlement for the Palestinian refugees, ethnically cleansed 60 years ago — who, with their families, make up the majority of Gaza’s 1.5 million people. All the Palestinian factions, including Hamas, accept that as the basis for a permanent settlement or indefinite end of armed conflict. In the meantime, agree a truce, exchange prisoners and lift the blockade. Israelis increasingly seem to get it — but the grim reality appears to be that a lot more blood is going to have to flow before it’s accepted in Washington.

103 suzanne 03.06.08 at 7:43 pm

A great.
A terrorist attack in Jerusalem. (shooting in a yeshiva ffs)

104 suzanne 03.06.08 at 7:53 pm

@the truth.
The truth = /= the Guardian. How many times they were far beyond the truth.

If you start interrupting the discussion which was going on there. Please do so by posting arguments against the statements being made earlier, instead of posting an article of some british journalist who thinks he knows “the truth”.

Me and I believe others, do not feel the need to repeat themselves over and over again.

105 suzanne 03.06.08 at 7:55 pm

and of course in Gaza there are open celebrations because of this shooting.

Perhaps Israelis should adopt the same mentality. With every Palestinian killed we should hand out sweets and dance and celebrate.

:s

disgusting!

106 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 9:02 pm

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3515985,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3516031,00.html

Perhaps Mr. Truth, much like Seumas Milne, view this as merely a legitimate act of Resistance, so as to show the Israeli army that they will not go down without… defending themselves.

And I do love the word “indiscriminate”. Is that the new word for “deliberately and actively targeting civilians”? Yes, shooting at Yeshiva students is also “indiscriminate”. Perhaps the two terrorists were hoping that one of them is a soldier in disguise?

Not that the rest of that Guardian article was much better.

And did I mention just how disgusted I am when I see people *celebrating* death, particularly the death of innocents? Do these people not understand the severity of what happened, of what they celebrate?

How much brainwashing and dehumanization of the other does it take to *celebrate death and murder* in the streets? I’ve never seen anything like it in Israel, and pray that I never will.

107 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:07 pm

“What else can Israel do to stop the rockets, its supporters ask. The answer could not be more obvious: end the illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories”

1. The occupation is not “illegal”.

2. Rockets are flying from territories no longer occupied (Gaza and southern Lebanon), not territories under occupation (the West Bank).

The author is uninformed. It might be “obvious” to him, because he is an idiot, but the reality on the ground is that ending occupation equals rocket attacks.

The terrorists have attacked a school. Obviously the Jewish kids are not the victims, but those attacking them are. The police got them, I think. Otherwise I am sure the terrorists would hide among civilians again.

So what’s the excuse for attacking a school? Oppression? Israeli soldiers shooting from it?

Where is the British author who knows everything when those questions are asked?

108 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:10 pm

“I’ve never seen anything like it in Israel, and pray that I never will.”

The day Israel becomes like the Arabs is the day Israel is not worth fighting for any more.

I am glad that they got terrorists in Gaza, but I am not celebrating the death of the civilians who were killed in the fighting.

Nothing gives those people greater pleasure than the death of Jewish children. I assume their version of heaven is not 70 virgins but 8 dying Jewish children.

109 Zionism=Racisim 03.06.08 at 9:23 pm

Suzanne Says,
“If you start interrupting the discussion which was going on there.”
———–
If by discussion you mean your zionist mutual stroke fest…..by all means I agree.

110 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 9:34 pm

ZionistvsNazi,

Riddle me this:

Do shopping malls in Arab countries check customers for bombs out of fear that a Jew might sneak in and blow up a shop or two?

Do Jews run into Arab schools and kill children?

Why not?

(It’s a field day for our Nazi friend. Eight dead Jews.)

111 Nobody 03.06.08 at 10:21 pm

The Truth on March 6th, 2008 7:19 pm

To blame the victims for this killing spree defies both morality and sense

March 06, 2008 By Seumas Milne
Source: Guardian

i think when people start copy pasting whole articles from the guardian it’s a sure sign that it’s time to end the debate … at least until now all posters on this blog were able to pass the minimum test of being capable of formulating their point by themselves … but don’t despair, the truth .. there are multitudes of blogs created to accommodate the type of idiots like you … there people are copy pasting whole articles by dozens everyday to everybody’s satisfaction

112 Zionism=Racism 03.06.08 at 10:24 pm

Notice not once in any other of my posts did I use the word ‘Jew’. Unlike you and your zionist racist buddies view of Arabs/Muslims, I see there is a difference btw zionist & Jewish….
——
Another common tool of the zionist turn any valid critisim of their genocidal, racist occupation/policies into anti-semitic rehtoric.

-Read Norman Finkelstein

Riddle me this prick:

What Arab country had racked up these numbers in the same time frame????
———–

From then through late January 2008, PCHR documented the extra-judicial killings alone:

– 705 in total;

– 478 of them targeted victims;

– 227 of them innocent civilians; and

– 68 of them (through June 2006) children.

Total Palestinian deaths and injuries from September 29, 2000 through late January 2008 are as follows, according to PCHR:

– 4419 Palestinians killed, including 794 children, 152 women, 25 medical personnel and 10 journalists;

– 11,700 Palestinians injured in Gaza; and

– 13,550 Palestinians wounded in the West Bank

113 Nobody 03.06.08 at 10:42 pm

Riddle me this prick:

What Arab country had racked up these numbers in the same time frame????

we got 300.000 people dead in darfur in the last 5 years … you are just idiot or smoking something ??? the jordanians killed 10 times as many palestinians if not more in one week …

114 Andrew Brehm 03.06.08 at 11:10 pm

The victims of Arab infighting in Gaza and the West Bank…

Either way, why are those deaths “extra-judicial killings”? I love it how everything is illegal when a Jew does it.

Sorry, when a Zionist does it.

A Zionist is a Jew who shoots back.

115 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 11:13 pm

What Arab country had racked up these numbers in the same time frame????

Um, most of them? This includes, off the top of my head, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt (in Yemen), Lebanon (have you *looked* at the civil war death-toll?), Sudan… do you honestly want me to continue? I mean, seriously? Because I can add quite a few gruesome details, like how Saddam killed a couple hundred *thousand* Kurds. With poison gas.

As Fink, I leave him to his good friends at the Al-Manar TV station.

116 Roman Kalik 03.06.08 at 11:15 pm

*As for Fink

117 Howie 03.07.08 at 12:15 am

How about 9-11…5,000 in about 3 minutes…

Though that was not ONE country…but a shared venture.

118 Lynn 03.07.08 at 1:47 am

This is a wonderful aticle that I wish all arabs would read with an open heart.

http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2008/03/05/46509.html

119 Zionism=Racism 03.07.08 at 6:03 pm

Um, most of them? This includes, off the top of my head, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt (in Yemen), Lebanon (have you *looked* at the civil war death-toll?), Sudan… do you honestly want me to continue? I mean, seriously? Because I can add quite a few gruesome details, like how Saddam killed a couple hundred *thousand* Kurds. With poison gas.
—-
Nice job citing numbers and facts…..almost but nope not really. *Time Frame* dip shit.
—-
How about 9-11…5,000 in about 3 minutes…
—-
Ahhhh let’s see was that a nation/state which did that? dip shit….
—
we got 300.000 people dead in darfur in the last 5 years … you are just idiot or smoking something ???
—-
And I don’t support the Sudanese gov’t or any of the players in the civil war…..nore any of the oppressive gov’t in 99% of the “Arab world”…

Israel is still by far one of the worst offenders in the world, second to the million or so the US has killed in Iraq.

120 Nobody 03.07.08 at 6:49 pm

And I don’t support the Sudanese gov’t or any of the players in the civil war…..nore any of the oppressive gov’t in 99% of the “Arab world”…

i dont remember that anybody asked you if you support your shitty governments or not … i only remember that you asked what arab country had racked the same numbers these numbers in the same time frame …

and israel has never been the world’s worst offender in terms of casualties … every arab civil war, whether fought in algeria, yemen or lebanon, killed 2-3 times more people than the combined number of victims on both sides who died in the 60 years of the israeli arab conflict … the worst arab killers in the world have been always the arabs themselves

121 Roman Kalik 03.08.08 at 5:32 pm

Israel is still by far one of the worst offenders in the world, second to the million or so the US has killed in Iraq.

I really shouldn’t bother, no really I shouldn’t, but when I see numbers like the above pulled out of one’s *arse* I just can’t but point and laugh.

And really, it’s getting quite tiresome. I’ve already given you a detailed list of nations far ahead of Israel in your little list. You can add easily add over half of the world as being ahead of Israel in that list, but why bother? Your list is obviously based on a simple, yet straightforward principle - hate first, fanatically self-convince later.

122 Andrew Brehm 03.08.08 at 8:16 pm

Million or so…

Hahahahahahaha!

Is that it? Maths is the problem? You make up numbers and that’s why Israel and the US are evil.

123 anna 03.09.08 at 8:52 am

I’m not going to wade in to this one except to say that it’s funny that Egypt cropped up on that list.

Distressing as it was to see more loss of lives and destruction in that part of the world yet again, one has to wonder if either government is serious about peace. Firing rockets and settlement building that negates a peace process were both catalysts to the tragedies we are seeing. All I can say is, you have our prayers.

124 Roman Kalik 03.09.08 at 9:27 am

I’m not going to wade in to this one except to say that it’s funny that Egypt cropped up on that list.

Blame Nasser.

125 anna 03.09.08 at 11:24 am

Nah, this one I blame you for, Roman ;).

126 Roman Kalik 03.09.08 at 12:00 pm

Oy, was it moi who decided to play regional stabilization games back in the Fifties, with chemical weapons no less?

127 anna 03.09.08 at 1:45 pm

I won’t go for the bait this time ;). Be fair, is all I will say.

128 Andrew Brehm 03.09.08 at 2:30 pm

“one has to wonder if either government is serious about peace.”

The Israeli government is. Hence the offers of peace in 1948, 1967, 1994, 2000, and 2005. It’s just very difficult to have peace when the other side keeps screaming “death to the Jews”.

Israel and its government has no interest in fighting anybody. It’s expensive and you might be surprised just how unprofitable “oppressing” Arabs really is. Gaza never turned a profit and neither does the West Bank. All the “oppression” is done for nought, except for security.

Anti-Semites know how profitable it is to oppress Arabs, Israel doesn’t. It’s terrible.

“Firing rockets and settlement building that negates a peace process were both catalysts to the tragedies we are seeing.”

I’d say that building houses and firing rockets are two different things.

And it tells you quite a lot about what the two parties think.

Jews believes that peace is impossible because Arabs fire rockets.

Arabs believe that peace is impossible because Jews live in houses.

What’s the problem with “settlements”?

129 Roman Kalik 03.10.08 at 8:27 am

Odd, I was sure I posted a comment, but it seems to have never appeared…

In any case, Anna, here’s what I tried to say previously:

A comparison was made by the rather unsavory character above between Israel and Arab countries in the region. In replying to it, I mentioned Egypt, but only as part of a longer list - and without any special note.

If anything, I particularly pointed out Saddam’s Iraq rather than Egypt. Egypt was not due any special attention in that list, but it is still (by its own definition) an Arab country in the nearby region, so I referred to it in my comparison.

In no way did I refer to Egypt unfairly, or gave it any special attention beyond what was already given before me.

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