Andrew Heavens has written a superb piece on Arab and African gay bloggers. It mentions fellow Sudanese blogger Ali who is gay and tells the story of my post’s aftermath.
I believe that the coming out of Arab and African gays online is a good thing. It’s a wake up call to all the naive ones out there who think such people don’t exist amongst them. Plus, it’s extremely interesting reading their thoughts. Say hello to the real world.
My view of gay people has changed significantly over the past two years. The first real encounter conversation I’ve had with a gay person whom I knew is gay was over the internet. Well to be more precise, he wasn’t gay. He was bisexual. His name was Jim Benton.
Atheist Jim began reading Muslim blogs after developing a genuine interest in Islam and the Koran. Besides being bisexual, there was also another thing that was extremely intriguing about him. In his own words written here in April 2006, Jim “had the extremely GOOD fortune to be brought up in a lesbian household in the ‘conservative’ 1950s”.
Yup, he had a mommy and another mommy. 
Old time readers of this blog may remember Jim from his frequent comments here and over at Sandmonkey’s blog. All in all, he was a very interesting guy to chat with. And yes, we certainly did do a lot of chatting.
Later on, I’d also discover that a regular reader of this blog - Nominally Challenged - is gay. Not surprisingly, since I’ve previously said some not-so-nice things about gay people, NC and I ended up exchanging thoughtful emails.
Things continued happening. In fact, quite recently a friend of mine turned out to be gay. At first I was shocked. How could he be gay? The guy is not effeminate, soft spoken or anything like that at all. If you met him, you’d probably never expect it (unless you’re gay too and your “gay radar” is pretty good 
). Hell, you might actually enjoy a conversation with the dude.
So what happened? Frankly, after I got over my astonishment, nothing changed. The guy is still a friend. But it didn’t stop there. Eventually, I’d discover that a few more people I knew are also gay or lesbian. Who knew huh?
If they visit Sudan and become openly comfortable about their sexuality, some not-so-pleasant things will definitely happen to them but for me personally, it doesn’t matter anymore. Only those who are loud and flirtatious seriously, seriously annoy me.
If you believe people are born gay then you should be cool with how they are. However if you believe it’s a choice then that’s where things get complicated.
Me? I believe many cases of “odd” sexuality are due to biological reasons. Hermaphrodites are a perfect example. They are born like that. On the other hand, I believe there are cases in which it’s a choice. To me the former is alright but the latter is just super weird because it goes against the norm. I mean hello, why would a straight guy have a crush on another straight guy?
One al-Azhar Muslim scholar in a daring Egyptian TV show I watched about a year ago talked about how it’s not right to discriminate against those who are the way they are due to biological reasons. He however, vehemently criticized and opposed those who engaged in “deviant homosexual acts” by choice.
Question is, how can you tell if it’s by choice or not? Hmmm… Ehm, ehm, I’ll leave that one up to you. 
Anyways now, back to Andrew Heavens article about Arab and African gay bloggers. It’s funny how they’re talking about their rights in the context of our societies especially Arab ones. Good luck! Even women still can’t get theirs fully yet.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Sexuality is more than just choice vs. no choice. It’s not that simple. I’d go on my soup box, but eh…I try to keep my comments here short and sweet.
I am a very GLBT friendly person, and see no real difference between “straight” or “the gay.” All sexualities, welcome. One type is too boring.
I’ve always imagined gay dudes as very feminine. My early real life encounters with them were not pleasant. All they did was reinforce what I was told.
If you have time, I’d love to get to know your perspective Dalu - religious and cultural. After all we’re both Sudanese, had a conservative upbringing and then left Sudan, which got us exposed to what we were only told stories about while growing up.
Btw, I’d like to add something.
I understand that some people will argue and say it can’t be a choice at all. I believe it can. After all, there are some individuals who like kids and small boys. They’re attracted to them which I’m sure is something everyone here will not condone.
Now don’t get me wrong though, I’m not trying to draw a symmetry between the aforementioned and homosexuality. That’s not my intent. Merely, it is about exploring the matter of choice in all of this because I do think it’s existent.
Hey Drima.
Guilty as charged
As for the other points, well, you know my point of view already - I’ll let the others argue it out with you if they want.
“I understand that some people will argue and say it can’t be a choice at all. I believe it can. After all, there are some individuals who like kids and small boys.”
The key word here is “choice”. What happens between consenting adults is nobody’s business. Both parties have chosen. Children and rape-victims are offered no choice. Laws against pedophilia and rape have nothing to do with sex orientation. They protect the weak.
The way a person acts is not genetically encoded, but a result of nurturing. Heterosexuals are expected to act a certain way based on their respective genders. All in all, in my opinion, “stereotypes.” For example (and this is more on the extreme side) girls are supposed to be all “delicate” and not play sports and guys are all rough and don’t show emotions.
Some GLBT folk will often end up feeling the same pressures of taking on certain roles that are generally heteronormative but will end up seemingly ill fitting because of their respective genders and sexuality. For example, in a gay couple you will always find the “feminine” one, or the “wife”.
This might cause me to be flamed, but I don’t mean offense by it, but quite honestly, I find too often that a lot of people who do not fit hetero norms end up resulting to over the top stereotypes. But then I always wonder, well if you are not part of the “majority” what other model do you really have?
However, I have met several GLBT folk who will not fall into stereotypes or even if they do…they are generally just being themselves (they choose to act a certain way, just as many of us choose to be who we are…how we present ourselves, to whatever extent), and since I am one of those people who believes that gender is entirely constructed anyway, I am not much phased with gender benders and actually appreciate it.
Also I believe that sexuality is not as rigid and easy to decipher as we try to make it out to be. When we live in a very rigid heterosexist society that has religious/cultural/social/political rules as to how one must behave in order to be expected…many of us immediately will naturally take the major path, with the least uh…prosecution. So our sexuality will largely be a product of our environment. If it is drilled into us that loving the same gender is somehow wrong, we will grow with the aversion (even police ourselves and reinforce such ideals until it becomes part of us, so that we can’t imagine being anything but straight). But at the same time, I also believe that biology will play a part. Just as there are people out there who have no sexual desire at all, there will be people who will be more open to either genders or more so drawn to the same gender than exclusively the opposite.
I personally don’t believe in labels. It gives the false idea that sexuality is this dead set in stone thing. But labeling in some societies is very important and a lot of people take pride in set identities that will form around different cultural ideals and behavioral sets. Or whatever.
A friend of mine hates the word gay and although he prefers men, he is not absolutely horrified by women. He prefers the term “homosexual” but does not like to be labeled, because with labels comes a set of expected behaviors and labels can actually “mold” people. He is annoyed when people say OMG YOU DON’T SEEM GAY AT ALL, YOU PLAY SPORTS?? YOU DON’T TALK FUNNY? OMGZZ!!! And the same time he also gets extremely annoyed by other homosexual men who play up to stereotypes.
Yea I was repetitive, whatever the Golden Girls are on, I can’t be expected to keep a smooth train of thought.
Finally. Yes I grew up in a very conservative household and was taught that anything but straight was witchcraft (my mother’s terminology lol) but for some reason, I never formed any fear or hatred.
“The key word here is “choice”. What happens between consenting adults is nobody’s business. Both parties have chosen. Children and rape-victims are offered no choice. Laws against pedophilia and rape have nothing to do with sex orientation. They protect the weak.”
Thanks Eva. I am always appalled at the attempt of connection making between those things. >_>
omg. I meant “some gay couples” I know couples who are both what you would refer to as “masculine” or “feminine” in terms of gendered behaviors, regardless of their sexes. i.e. two masculine lesbians. Or two feminine lesbians.
And I meant “resorting to” not resulting to…”
And “accepted” not expected.
I am sure there are more. >_>
Also non conformative genders and sexualities are not strictly a product of western societies. They have existed in many other regions (through out time). Everyone just has different names, expectations etc. Also the extent to which it becomes political also influences identities. Especially in the U.S.
I mean geez, I remember a girl in one of my workshops (one of the many I attend for free pizza, yea I got no shame) once almost screamed out the fact that she just can’t exist as a “queer youth” (as she labels herself) without having to act a certain way, dress a certain way, and attend 898990890 rallies and be the voice of every other queer youth out there???” :\ Mind you she was being frustrated of the amount of pressure that comes with being “different.”
ok. I’m done.
Eva and Dalu, thanks for taking the time to express your perspectives. Much food for thought.
Dalu,
While I agree with most of what you say, your comments on choice relate to behavioral choices, but I think that a distinction can and should be drawn between that, and sexual orientation itself which is in my humble opinion, simply not a matter of choice. I did not choose to be attracted to men - I simply find men sexually attractive. My choice (to the extent that it exists) is the extent to which I give voice to my orientation - and that is behavioral.
“Thanks Eva. I am always appalled at the attempt of connection making between those things.”
So am I, Dalu, and thanks also, Eva, for putting it so succinctly.
Hey Nominally Challenged.
A. I love your Art work, I have stopped painting for a while and now I feel like a total failure. But I’ll keep that between me and my therapist.
B. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I know my writing style is kind of crappy, and I suck at improvement.
Because I oddly agreed with what you said (because somewhere in the back of my mind I whole heartedly believe that I was saying the same thing as what you just said :P) but I can’t seem to go back and figure out where I went wrong.
I believe biology does factor into sexual orientations, but the extent to which we choose to express our sexuality will be limited or more open based on our environment. And this is where “choice” will factor in. By choice, I mean whether or not we will act on our desires and to what extent (I do not mean choice as in “we choose to be attracted to the same sex). By environment I mean how accepting the society/religion what have you is of our sexual identities. Also our sexual identities will be molded (to a great extent, I believe) by whatever ideals in our society…the whole “self policing” thing I spoke of earlier if it is drummed into us from day one that anything but heterosexuality is bad. Then we will be more inclined to focus more on what is more accepted, and be more limited to exploring others.
I cannot speak about sexual orientation without factoring in the larger anti anything “not straight” issue. And how a heteronormative society will criminalize (i.e. connections to pedophilia) through whatever means anything that is not heterosexual. (Sex between two consenting adults is a crime? Are you kidding me? And why is it ok that there will be people who will find their policing of other consenting adults sexuality okay?)
So, I am, also, largely speaking to the internalized homophobia so many heteros have (even those who later on come out as gay, the initial homophobic feelings they have….a product of being policing by others and self policing thanks to living in largely heterosexual societies).
A good example of the “self policing”, is stories of “closeted” people who end up marrying and having children and leading a lifelong closeted life (while having affairs with same sex individuals on the side), or somehow along the line abandon their wife and children. Thats what I meant by choice. And that is the kind of determinant factors I was talking about. Thought this factor is obviously largely that of suppression.
“Real” men are also generally expected to set others straight, i.e. “beat up the sissies” always make it very CLEAR that you are straight and defend your honor in anyway whenever your manhood is questioned. Etc.
The expectation of masculinity and the extent to which some males go into proving it is always interesting to me. There’s actually an emerging discipline devoted to “masculinity studies.” In fact I am more interested in masculinity than femininity in general…Although I tend to look at masculinity through feminist framework.
So, I did not mean that to feel attracted to males or females is choice only. Or even largely choice. The will, want and desire that is hardwired into all of us has to come into place (biology).
Which reminds me. Heterosexuals are always quick to dismiss others without realization that they themselves cannot figure out why they are “straight” other than “well I am attracted to the opposite sex that’s why” and when all fails, religion/taboos and whatnot comes into play to back up their claims.
Why can’t it just be the same? Attraction, is attraction is attraction. Homosexuals are expected to just “stop” being gay but heterosexuals find it appalling and inconceivable to stop being “straight.”
Although I believe in biology, I am also very wary of some “biological” studies out there that try to make homosexuality into an illness. Because we are quick to forget that scientists are humans that operate within heteronormative societies and their studies will serve to confirm their own interests. Or making it into “they have no choice” as if it’s something to be pitied and given cure to, but only if they “seek it” (“they” being “the gays” ). >_> Instead of it being seen as biological and therefore just as NORMAL as heterosexuality, and nothing more than a different orientation…therefore is just as valid to be protected and recognized with society.
Now behaviors.
And although this is bad example (but it’s the best way I can illustrate what I mean), as a “person of color” I am often told that I have “sold out” because I don’t listen to certain types of music, don’t talk a certain way and certainly don’t dress a certain way. Which means I am not conforming in stereotypical ways that are expected of my racial/ethnic and sometimes even gender identity. By behaviors I do not mean sexual, I am talking about interests, the way we talk, walk etc. Now, I know for a fact, at least in my circles, gay folk are expected to act, by heteros and even other gay folk, a certain way and conformity will take place. So that many, just like the heterosexual “majority” will conform to societal pressures. I have had gay friends say “Of course I have a good fashion sense, I am gay.” As if it’s genetically encoded.
This is what I meant by “behaviors” I did not mean it to be attached to as a product of sexuality or easily exchangeable. I guess I used choice in many different ways.
The choice to come out of the closet/stay in the closet.
The choice to express your sexual identity in certain ways (fasion/interests etc, not talking about expression in terms of having sex with the same sex)
Sorry for overspamming your blog, Drima, in such a repetitive manner. But I was trying to re-word what I said in a more (even if imagined) clear manner.
I hope this cleared up everything, Nominally Challenged. Or was I wrong and I was actually causing you some offense/disagreement in what I was saying? Or am I still not being clear enough?
My thoughts make more sense in my head. THIS IS WHY I ONLY MAKE SIMPLE STATEMENTS MADE OUT OF ONE OR TWO SENTENCES. Anything longer and the beast is unleashed. This is too long.
I tire myself.
Now I have to go look up the word “succinctly.”
“Sorry for overspamming your blog, Drima”
Don’t worry about it!
I’m actually liking this. No harm in getting exposed to different perspectives. We all need a bit of that anyway.
I’d add one more thing to the matter of choice. Let’s take the example of the regretted mid-century Hollywood star Rock Hudson. Hudson was a stunningly gorgeous hunk who could have had any woman he wished. He had never availed himself of that choice, except for a brief marriage to cover his tracks. By the moral standards of his time, he’d be finished had his homosexuality become known to public. Do you really think, Drima, that he would have risked his reputation and his gigantic movie career by choice? It rather proves that his attraction to men was completely overriding his life. (I must admit that when the truth came out in the 80’s, I was shocked, together with millions of his fans. I think we all wish he went to the grave with his secret. One can’t watch his movies, especially the love scenes, and not think of that. Sad but true.)
Eva, I have never said that it’s strictly a matter of choice. I’m beginning to realize it isn’t. Biology has its role, but to which extent, is the thing I’m still exploring.
Somehow I see this issue of Choice Vs Biology as something very similar to that of Creationism Vs Evolution. Unfortunately, unlike politics and social issues, with these two topics you’d have to delve deep into the complex world of science and biology which I have the urge to do more of.
At the end of the day, gays are still people so it’s not like I advocate hating or smacking one just because of his gayness.
omg. Black Gay Arab is Sudanese? I have been laboring for months trying to figure out how to read his arabic (my arabic sucks).
I need to desperately meet gay Sudanese people. Just because I have to. There are some Sudanese Lesbians here, but my mother swears to me that they are just pissed off because all their husbands ran off and they are basically just being corrupted by American Culture.
I have not met any of these women though…hmmm….
I know my mother is watching me. Closely. Because I keep telling that a) I am never getting married and b) I always have something “feminist” to say. >_>
effeminate or not.. anyone who has a good heart is good enough to be my friend.. i dont care how loud and obnoxious someone is as long as they are kind..
at my school in israel we had a few very effeminate guys.. turns out some of them were gay and some of them weren’t..
i recall in the 10th grade one of the “jocks” mocking one of them in class after the effeminate guy asked a question in the middle of a lesson..
“you dumb homo!!”
and the teacher said nothing.. i was shocked.. but much to my compounded amazement his best friend (also a jock) actually stood up and said
“what a stupid thing to say.. how is that [your comment] relevant to anything!!”
he redeemed the classroom and made it plainly uncool to harrass people because of sexual preference..
Dalu,
Double thanks are due - firstly for complimenting my art (I blush) and secondly for restating your point. Perhaps I misunderstood you and rushed to comment, but after reading your explanation, I believe that we’re essentially on the same wavelength.
Great post, Drima!
I have to say I enjoyed reading every word of this blog. Thanks Drima, Dalu and everyone. I have to say I am very pleased to know there are people out there like you who are willing to support and actually discuss such a matter that has always been delicate and sensitive to talk about in our Sudanese society. Keep up the good work.!
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