Anti-Semitism = Islamophobia

Posted on February 16, 2008
Filed Under Jews, Islam |

I may be generalizing but I’ve come across discussions in the blogosphere in which some Muslims accuse their critics of being Islamophobic and on the other hand, some Jews accuse their critics of being anti-Semitic when in fact those specific critics (whose views I’m very familiar with) are neither the former nor latter.

In such cases, I find that those labels and accusations are simply hurled to silence the other. In a post-9/11 world it has become rather fashionable for too many Muslims to scream “Islamophobia” instead of dealing with the issues head-on. I am not in favor of that attitude.

That being said, of course there are certainly cases in which matters are very evident and can’t be left to mere interpretation. I, like many of you I’m sure, have come across critics who are indeed passionately hateful towards Jews and venomously hostile towards Muslims, and I can’t help but notice that in many ways “anti-Semitism” and “Islamophobia” are two different sides of the very same coin.

Comments

85 Responses to “Anti-Semitism = Islamophobia”

Don Cox on February 16th, 2008 10:28 am

I think one can be hostile toward Islam as a religion without being hostile to those people who have the misfortune to have been made to believe in it. We should respect people but be critical of ideas and beliefs. If I think that the basic doctrines of Islam are false, I can reasonably be hostile to anyone who wants to force me to accept them, but not to those who keep their beliefs as private and don’t try to bully others. If I think the doctrines are false and absurd, I can reasonably mock them.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 4:37 pm

Drima-

I don’t agree with you on this one. And this is mostly from the point of view of manifestation.

Look…I see myself as a free thinker and, though I joke a whole lot, I do harbor some knee-jerk predjious against Muslims…particularly Arabs. But it is not hatred…but a deep cynicism and skepticism and enormous distrust and this was based a good deal on direct personal experience of people that said and did some pretty miserable things over many years. This is more of what you will get from Jews…and at the same time…whenever a Jew believes that a given Muslim does hate his guts, we bend over backwards to show friendship and that we are not some beast and that we want to share and understand…as I have many many times. You see, most of us believe that if you dig deep enough…the hate towards us is there. It is a very deep wound.

But overall, how does Jewish “hatred” towards Islam manifest? Even in Israel…there is a relatively small group that actively hates Muslims, a larger group that hates Palestinians yet…you don’t see hate parades, flag burnings, venomous articles and ugly shows on television. In Jewish communities outside of Israel, folks will mutter about “the fucking Arabs” or something and those same folks will be involved at their local temple trying put together Muslim-Jewish outreach organizations. Look at what Daniel Pearl’s dad is doing. We know him personally, my son WORKED for him…Yehuda Pearls son was viciously murdered for BEING A JEW…in Pakistan…PAKISTAN!! Where we all know Jews and Israeli’s have been busily murdering innocents for years and years. And Prof. Pearl has dedicated his life to making peace.

What do we see from the other side? I have personal heard Arabs talking about “finishing Hitler’s job”. I have had Arabs tell me to my face they hate Jews. Terrorism is NOT limited to a response against Israel…Jews have been targeted and murder in; France, Italy, Argentina, Morroco, Egypt, Pakistan on cruise ships etc. Iraq had once been a hellhole for Jews. So please don’t tell me this is just “anger at Israel” that won’t fly.

Would a Yemen be in danger…say in Beverly Hills? NO…but an American Jew would be in Jenin, and JUST for being a Jew. I once volunteered to go to Jenin to help start a program for handicapped kids…an ARAB friend talked me out of it, yet it was,,,yes the ISRAELI government that wanted to try and fund the project.

Are there issues yes…but this is not two sides of the same coin. They are very different coins.

Yes there are Jews that flat hate…but are you telling me the frequency, intensity and duration of their overt behavior comes anything close to that of Muslim, especially Arab world?

Watch the moral equivalency approach…it just does not fly here.

Love you Drima…you still dah man
Howie on February 16th, 2008 4:53 pm

Drima-

I will add one point…I do agree that many Jews fire off the “anti-semetic” thing too often…and can be used just when somebody has criticism of Jews or Israel…on that point…we completely agree.
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 5:03 pm

I’m afraid I agree with Howie.

Islamomophobia exists, but it hardly manifests. Muslims in the west and east do not hide who they are because they fear attacks (although ex-Muslims often do). There are four times as many attacks against Jews than there are against Muslims (per Jew and Muslim) in Britain.

Even assuming that Muslims in Britain are attacked because they are Muslims, I don’t see how the two compare. I haven’t seen numbers for attacks on non-Muslims and non-Jews, but I am curious whether attacks against foreigners (be they Muslim or not) are not the real reason behind attacks against Muslims.

I know that in Germany it is. Many people in east-Germany hate foreigners and Indians are regularly hunted down by mobs in east-German cities. Being a “Muslim” might actually be an advantage there as most German neo-Nazis sympathise with “Muslim” causes, especially in the middle east.

Yes, Turks are being targeted. But the slogan behind it is “Auslaender raus” (”foreigners out”), not anything specifically anti-Muslim.

“I can’t help but notice that in many ways “anti-Semitism” and “Islamophobia” are two different sides of the very same coin.”

That, on the other hand, is completely true.

But in my opinion what is usually referred to as “Islamophobia” is not, in fact, “fear of (or hatred for) Islam” but normal xenophobia. I haven’t heard of many people who were targeted by attackers because they were Muslims. And the Muslims who live here in my street certainly do not fear being identified as such (otherwise they would not put up anti-Semitic posters every now and then; yes, lying about Israel is anti-Semitism). For them showing that they are “Muslims” seem more of a shield against criticism than a potential danger.

“I think one can be hostile toward Islam as a religion without being hostile to those people who have the misfortune to have been made to believe in it.”

And that is also true.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 5:13 pm

Drima-

I don’t have the stats. to prove it…but I bet you anything the highest incidence of racial attacks, especially with violence..against Muslims in the west comes from non-Jews…bet you anything you want on that one dude.

On the other hand…I would bet you the VAST majority of attacks against Jews are now at the hands of Muslims…

This is a different coin
Howie on February 16th, 2008 5:15 pm

By the way…Raccoon…if you are out there…can you pitch in a bit on our basic Raccoonish, paranoid, most people probably hate us and want us dead mentality. That is kind of part of it also.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 5:34 pm

Drima-

I know you will give me an honest answer:

You are walking alone at night in neighborhood in Paris and dressed as a Jew…you see a group of young religious Muslim men walking closely behind you…your level of paranoia is 1-10?

You are walking at night through a neighborhood in Beverly Hills dressed as a Muslim…a group of yeshiva students from Chabad are walking closely behind you..your level of paranoia is 1-10?

You are walking, as a Muslim, through the center of Jerusalem…you level of paranoia is 1-10?

You are walking in a black suit with a yamulke and a big beard carrying a Torah scroll through downtown Gaza…just minding your own business…ah never mind…you are DEAD…period.

Different coin.
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 5:43 pm

Howie, you live in America, right?

America and Israel are really safe when it comes to these things.

“I do agree that many Jews fire off the “anti-semetic” thing too often”

Too often may be; but I am not convinced that many arguments against Israel and Jews are not anti-Semitic.

I rate “criticism” of Israel as anti-Semitic when

a) it is criticism of history plainly made up or criticism of history ignoring important details.

b) it is criticism of something Israel did which was never criticised when some other country did it.

c) it is criticism of of the nature that Israel and Jews are somehow supposed to be “better” than their enemies.

d) it is criticism that includes the belief that Israel ought to behave differently even though the critic himself has never been in Israel’s position and is not likely to behave any better himself in such a situation.

All four are anti-Semitic in my book.

I often find people condemning Israel for the occupation without mentioning that Israel offered the land back in exchange for peace (a), claiming that occupation is illegal even though it never was when other countries did it or are doing it (b), claiming that Israel is “civilised” and should hence not behave like the Arabs (c AND it is anti-Arab), and Christians who call on Israel not to react to attacks and instead turn the other cheek (d, and I think people who believe in turning the other cheek should do so themselves and not demand that Jews do it).

But I am neither a Muslim nor an Arab; and although my rabbi in the synagogue once spoke about Islamophobia in Britain and compared it to anti-Semitism too (he was talking about two specific instances) I would be curious to learn of actual examples of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim sentiments.

Please exclude the following:

1. Anti-Muslim sentiments that are anti-religious in general.

2. Anti-Muslim sentiments that are only considered anti-Muslim by Muslims whereas the same sentiments towards other religions are not understood as offensive (i.e. the Danish cartoons; cartoons of Moses are not usually understood as anti-Semitism, hence this doesn’t count as anti-Muslim).

3. Anti-Muslim sentiments that are simply anti-enemy sentiments. (I.e. Hizbullah attacks Israel and Israel then fights Hizbullah is NOT anti-Muslim).

4. Anti-Muslim or anti-Arab sentiments that are actually directed at foreigners or non-whites in general.

In other words, I want examples that affect Muslims and only Muslims and that affect Muslims because they are Muslims and not for quite logical reasons.
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 5:49 pm

“a group of yeshiva students from Chabad are walking closely behind you”

I would be scared. Those people can be really annoying.

But this has become too much of a who hates whom more story. I don’t like attributing anti-Semitism to Muslims because anti-Semitism is not an Islamic thing. It was brought to the middle east by pagans and later “Christians” and fell on a fertile ground among not Muslims but secular nationalists (and later so-called “Islamic fundamentalists” whom I still consider neo-pagans).
anna on February 16th, 2008 5:54 pm

The prefixes and suffixes used are interesting: ‘anti’ and ‘phobia’.
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 5:59 pm

“The prefixes and suffixes used are interesting: ‘anti’ and ‘phobia’.”

That’s because the two words mean different things.

I wish there would be more Jewphobia than anti-Semitism. In fact, I believe that is one of Israel’s goals.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 6:06 pm

Andrew…

My rabbi is almost a Jewish Nashrallah…beyond right wing..

In front of the congregation…I decided to pin him in a corner..

I simply asked:

“Does God love Jews more than Muslims”

He staggered and hesitated…and one of the few times I heard a meek response from him he said;

“No”

I have never in my life heard a hate speech from a Jew against Muslims…never…nasty things and stupid remarks…you bet…I have heard people speak of hate…my brother in law hates Palestinians…but I even have heard disciples of Meir Kahane speak in public…like Abe Rubin…no real hate speech, no incitement…no love for sure…but no “we have to kill them all and randomly hunt down Arabs in say…Sudan and blast them…even these guys were pretty specific to the Israel-Arab conflict.Even my crazy brother-in-law has no desire to blow up an Muslim community center in Argentina or blast people in a mosque in Italy or throw Arabs in wheelchairs off cruise ships in the middle of the ocean…And if somebody did…they would be despised for it and condemended in almost every circle.

It is not the same coin.
anna on February 16th, 2008 6:07 pm

“I wish there would be more Jewphobia than anti-Semitism. In fact, I believe that is one of Israel’s goals” tough talk.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 6:08 pm

Anna-

Brilliant observation and you have hit the nail right on the head…”against”…as opposed to “fear of”…

Brilliant…you got it right there. Genius.
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 6:14 pm

“No”

Yes, that is what I would expect from a right-wing Jewish rabbi.
Howie on February 16th, 2008 8:18 pm

Andrew-

“No”

Yes, that is what I would expect from a right-wing “Jewish rabbi.”

Did you have another kind of rabbi in mind?
Andrew Brehm on February 16th, 2008 11:24 pm

“Did you have another kind of rabbi in mind?”

Well, nine years ago I lived in a house in Dublin named “Pygmalion”.

There were 20 or so of us sharing the house. It was an interesting little community.

We once had a wedding.

An Italian guy, I forget his name, “married” the couple. We called him the “rabbi”. He was wearing a magician’s head.

Needed someone for the ceremony, you understand.

The house still exists and it is located in Dublin’s “Little Jerusalem” (Portobello).

So, no, I did not have another kind of rabbi in mind.
Howie on February 17th, 2008 2:57 am

. “This is more of what you will get from Jews…and at the same time…whenever a Jew believes that a given Muslim does hate his guts, we bend over backwards to show friendship and that we are not some beast and that we want to share and understand…as I have many many times.”

I wrote that wrong…I meant to say “given Muslim that does NOT hate his guts..” When I know they hate me…even when they know nothing about me…then screw ‘em.
Heimo on February 17th, 2008 3:49 am

I live in Germany & of course there is some Islamophobia here around,

since 11/9 - the awareness of Bin Laden etc. - but I didn’t ever see

that there’d be a change in tolerance to muslim people in our

society, which with mainly Turkish immigrants are about 10 percent in

the bigger cities - I have very good Islamic friends (my friend

Ghasem from Iran etc.) - belonging to a religion seems no problem

here around, be it in profession or relationship - but I heard some

people complain when it comes to build here bigger Islamic mosques -

there are also reports that some Islamic schools are centres of

hatred against the West, against Christians & Jews & so a startin

base for fanatic terrorists - that’s what you see for some cases in

news, but about never see it in daily life

but after 1945 Jews in Germany are much less - only very few returned

or survived (& most of them who survived got away anyway) -

understandable since the holocaust - so since the wall between East &

West in Europe fell - there came a lot of Ex-German people

(emmigrates) from Eastern countries, mainly from Russia to Germany &

also a small lot of Jewish people, but they are of course only a

small minority in relation to the Islamic population here.

Just these days I saw an alarming report in tv about the situation of

Jewish school kids in Berlin - there exists a Jewish school in Berlin

- the report told, that Jewish pupils got threatened on their way

to/from school by other other youths to be ‘jewish’. - so they get

sometimes bodyguard - the school is heavily guarded - there have

been a lot of Jewish kids in other schools who changed to that school

because they had been threatened as Jews by other pupils, mainly by

Muslim pupils -

There has been a demonstration for Peace in the time of the last

Lebanon war - a lot of Palestinian & Lebanon flags were waved - there

was a small group of Israel-friendly Jewish people, waving an Israeli

flag - they got beaten up in first case - then police came in the

wake of investigation they only accussed the small Jewish group to

having provocated & they even searched their houses & computers -

(well others may feel provoked by those other kind of flags)

Recently a Jew in Frankfurt who wore the Kippa - this small Jewish hat - got threatened & stabbed by a Muslim - just because!

I am glad that there is a small minority of Jews coming back to Germany but I find it disturbing & shocking, that a Jewish school has to be highly guarded from attacks from Islamic fanatics (not Muslims in general of course), while Islamic institutions on the other hand have no fear or reason to get protected..
Heimo on February 17th, 2008 3:58 am

argh - I used the wrong editor - producing all those blank lines between…
Howie on February 17th, 2008 4:34 am

Heimo

We have the same thing here in the United States. I am not aware of any Muslim schools being guarded…yet any significant Jewish event has security…sometimes significant security.

I remember going to a bar mitzvah in California with guards all around…it is gradually becoming a way of life, which is insane.

In the USA…the folks that would hassle you used to be the same types that would hassle blacks or Asians or Muslims…

Now anti-Jewish action is mostly an Arab thing and I will say Arab…because I have yet to hear of even one incident involving one among our large Persian population…

So again…yes people will throw out slogans to shut the other side up…I agree with Drima’s basic idea…but the same coin…there we disagree quite a bit.
Drima on February 17th, 2008 7:29 am

“I may be generalizing”

…and given your richer experiences I believe I certainly am if we bring real world examples. So I won’t disagree with you there.

That’s why I must stress that my opinion is only limited within the scope of what I see in the blogosphere sometimes.

For example, let’s look at Don Cox’s first comment. I am very familiar with him and hence I know he doesn’t fit the definition of a hateful Islamophobe. He’s not one. However I’m pretty sure some Muslims who don’t him at all and aren’t familiar with his elaborated stances might immediately throw the Islamophobe label at him.

As for incidents in the real the world, I remember a while ago there was a report about hate crimes in the US during the last year. The highest number if I’m not mistaken was against Jews. Gotta dig up the link.
Don Cox on February 17th, 2008 10:36 am

I think the kind of thugs who might attack Muslims in Britain are against anyone who is Asian, rather than Muslims as such. They don’t distinguish Hindus or Sikhs from Muslims. In other words, it is racism, not Islamophobia. And they would probably be just as keen on a fight against supporters of a visiting football team as a fight against Asians.

But such people are a small minority.

However, a few more bomb attacks could change the situation greatly. There is a much larger minority who are uneasy about the customs and attitudes of Muslims, and they could become positively hostile.
Don Cox on February 17th, 2008 10:49 am

I don’t think I count as an “Islamophobe”, but the kind of Muslim who regards even the mildest criticism of Islam as absolutely intolerable might label me as such. My current position is that all the old organised religions - Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Marxism, etc are out of date, full of claims that are simply untrue or absurd, and need a complete rethink.

But they are all better than the older religions such as the Aztec religion, in that none require human sacrifice. But they all share the basic fault of claiming an exclusive right to some kind of absolute truth which cannot be questioned. This leads to bullying and conflict.

I am a “censorship-phobe”. I’m totally against all kinds of blasphemy laws and media laws that try to ban criticism of religion. All ideas and beliefs must be open to criticism, and to jokes and cartoons. (I do take the Archbishop’s point that jokes can become a form of bullying, but I think the risk is worth taking.)
Andrew Brehm on February 17th, 2008 12:51 pm

“I live in Germany”

My experiences were the same as yours.

I went to the synagogue in Krefeld, Germany, last weekend. There was a police car guarding it.

I am assuming it was to protect fundamentalist Muslims from Jewish Islamophobia.

Or perhaps because the police also fear Muslims.

Which brings us to a different question.

Is Islamophobia, meaning fear of _current_ Islam, justified and necessary to protect one’s life when one goes to a synagogue in Europe?
Don Cox on February 17th, 2008 3:47 pm

Are the threats to Jews in Germany mostly from Muslims, or are the Aryan Neo-Nazi thugs still active too?

Where I live in the North of England, there used to be a prosperous Jewish community. As the Muslims moved in, they moved out - to New Zealand, Israel, and other places. The large synagogue was closed down several years ago. I think this is a bad thing. A thriving Jewish community is a good thing for any city.

Baghdad used to have a large Jewish community, which was driven out. Don’t tell me Baghdad has improved as a result.
Andrew Brehm on February 17th, 2008 4:14 pm

“Are the threats to Jews in Germany mostly from Muslims, or are the Aryan Neo-Nazi thugs still active too?”

I wouldn’t call them “Muslims”, they are usually Arab Nazis. And I never distinguished between Arab and German Nazis. Two sides of the same coin, really.
The Raccoon on February 17th, 2008 6:04 pm

Heh. Pretty much everything that needed to be said has been said here.

There are two points (or gross generalizations, if you prefer), however, that I would like to present:

1) Jews are paranoid. It’s a cultural thing - coupla thousand years of massacres and persecution tend to do that to a people. But then again, most Europeans and Arabs seem to be casually, instinctively anti-Semitic - and I mean as in believing that Jews are greedy, liars, thieves, control the world, are filthy, descended from apes and pigs, should be enslaved and/or exterminated… I am going from the lighter to the heavier here. Generally speaking, from my experience and empirical evidence, Europeans tend to be mildly anti-Semitic (as in believing that Jews are liars, thieves, etc) and look at violent anti-Semitism as… impolite.

In the Arab world (same thing - personal observations and empirical evidence) mild-to-heavy anti-Semitism is normal and socially acceptable (ranging from Jews are liars and unclean to Jews should be enslaved). Extreme anti-Semitism (and I mean psychotic, raving, foaming-at-the-mouth, Hitler-worshipping, killing-jooz-is-first-priority-in-life obsession) is socially acceptable, even welcomed, but fortunately the majority seem to be only mild anti-Semites. It is directed at people who are Jewish by birth and/or religion.

2)

Fear of Islam is very reasonable, I think. Large quantities of Muslims openly declare that they want to murder me, my family and my friends; that they want to enslave the survivors; that they want to destroy everything the West strove to build for millenia… and I am not even mentioning the Jew thing.

Which doesn’t mean that every Muslim is a raving psychotic murderer… but it certainly makes fear of Islam anything but irrational. But then again, most of what is hailed as “Islamophobia” is general xenophobia. It is directed at people who are not locals, look funny and/or talk funny. Rational fear of Islam is directed at Islam, and by extention, its practitioners.

To conclude:

Anti-Semitism is a deeply ingrained cultural trait in European and Arab societies. It is ancient, proven itself countless times in pogroms, massacres, anti-Jewish laws, various forms of less violent cultural expression and an endless amount of papers calling for all of the above. Jews tend to be paranoid and see anti-Semitism when it’s not there… but then again, it’s often there.

Islamophobia is a name given to both general xenophobia (when it happens to be directed against Muslims) and an entirely rational fear of Islamic violence.

The above is, of course, Islamophobic
Andrew Brehm on February 17th, 2008 7:01 pm

“But then again, most Europeans and Arabs seem to be casually, instinctively anti-Semitic”

True enough.
anna on February 17th, 2008 7:03 pm

hmmm, a couple of questions for the secular Jews reading this…

why do secular jews hold onto their ethnicity despite the fact that they have never lived in Israel and the last connection was a couple of thousand years ago, do not adhere to religious beliefs or cultural practices, do not speak hebrew, do not ‘look’ jewish and have integrated into the life of their respective adopted nations?

Why do secular Jews think is the reason for this anti-semitism that seems to transcend time and geography?
anna on February 17th, 2008 7:07 pm

second question should have read:

What do secular Jews think is the reason for this anti-semitism that seems to transcend time and geography?
Howie on February 17th, 2008 7:24 pm

Anna-

You are a smart lady…and you have asked a question that you will probably get a whole lot of answers to.

To begin with…I think it is somehow the hand of God…I have NO logical explanation…there are explanations…but none really convince me much.

My family…both parents atheists…really anti-religion…yet there were almost fiercely “Jewish”…we ate ham, I had almost no Jewish friends…I did not know what a Sabbath was until my late 20’s. I am the only one of my entire generation of cousins that married a Jew…we have ; Somoans, Mexicans, Japanese various whities etc. And this is the NORM for the majority of Jews.

The centuries have seen mass murders, mass forced conversions, voluntary intermarriage, no place to call home, huge migratory upheavels…and yet…here we are…a mere 13 million in the whole wide world…That goes against all reason that we should survive…yet here we are.

So what keeps many of us still seeing themselves as Jews? Well…many don’t…many try very hard to shed it…including many Israelis don’t give a hoot…means little to nothing to many of them…

Anna it is a tough and wonderful and complex question…I can only think of it primarily being God’s will to somehow want our ragtag, misogynous, arguing,prostelitized, wandering, harrassed asses to remain Jewish…

Sorry I can’t do better. By all logic…I should have disappeared as a Jew..never even bar mitzved…couldn’t find Israel on a map (funny…kids tortured me in my early years for being Jewish…they were more concerned about my religion than I was), did not learn a letter of Hebrew until I was 28 etc. Yet…here I am…and many like me.

Part of it is almost a nationalism I guess since you cannot separate Jewish religion and Jew as part of a nation or people. Hell, they are still arguing over this issue in the Jewish world aplenty.

Go figure
Howie on February 17th, 2008 7:31 pm

“What do secular Jews think is the reason for this anti-semitism that seems to transcend time and geography?”

Question #2…I think there are many explanations:

1. We wouldn’t accept Christ

2. We wouldn’t accept Islam

3. We are a handy scapegoat

4. We have been enormously successful over and over again, despite our numbers and odds against us and it seems to bug the shit out of people

5. We killed Christ…it is true..ask Mel Gibson

6. I think people mystify us and then feel angry and jealous seeing us as arrogant, rich, tribal.

7. Plain old ignorance for generation to generation

8. We won’t behave the way people want us to behave.

9. Do you know the term “house nigger”. These were black slaves that were very trustworthy and docile and compliant…so they got to leave the field and work in the mastah’s house. People pretty much liked us as long as we were good house niggers…but when we stuck up and fought back…well I think this is a classic of what happened in the Muslim world…Iraq of the 40’s and 50’s is a perfect example.

10. A lot of folk don’t like the “Chosen People” thing…Hey I didn’t write!!

11. And my main answer to you…”I wish I freakin knew”.
anna on February 17th, 2008 7:50 pm

thanks howie for trying to explain.

Question 1
I think overall you seem to think it has something to do with God. “To begin with…I think it is somehow the hand of God.”

but secular Jews don’t believe in God so …… still baffled.

Question 2
1. lots of religions don’t

2. same as 1.

3. sorta the question

4. yeah, but so have people from other religions

5. haha, nah you didn’t do that.

6.7.8.9. still no, but this is starting to be taxing.

10. yeah but you’d only hold to such a belief if you actually thought the torah was God-inspired. and since haters generally don’t……

11. should’ve been no.1 :P.
anna on February 17th, 2008 7:58 pm

Food for thought, Howie :).
Andrew Brehm on February 17th, 2008 9:14 pm

Anna,

Judaism is not just a religion. There is complete secular Jewish culture. People like Woody Allen are not religious but they are definitely Jewish and visibly so.

The explanation for anti-Semitism; that’s a question I think everybody but Jews should ask themselves.

I personally think it is a reinforcing version of xenophobia.

Step 1: People who are themselves failures will look for a scapegoat (another Jewish concept, I suppose). They find the scapegoat in ALL foreigners and minorities including Jews.

Step 2: Jews tend to do well because Jewish culture values education, hence Jews make an excellent scapegoat since they are often rich and sometimes influential.

Step 3: Jews are the only minority that exist almost everywhere, hence Jews are excellent possible traitors.

Step 4: Cultural exchange with other countries reveals that they also hate Jews (and other minorities, but the Jews are the common minority).

The key ingredients for anti-Semitism are thus a failed culture (like Germany in the 1930s and Arab countries or Iran today), Jewish success (which is simply due to the fact that Jews can read), and Jewish omnipresence (if today only in the media due to coverage of Israel).

If you are a candidate for anti-Semitism and you find yourself without influence (even though you OBVIOUSLY deserve to be rich and powerful) and you see Jews who are rich and powerful PLUS they are constantly shown killing people in the news, why wouldn’t you hate them?

(I always wonder whether journalists actually assume moral responsibility for the victims of their “reports”.)

Christianity:

When Jesus was killed by the Romans he was killed partly because he was Jewish, i.e. the “King” of Jews. But then people started believing in him and he suddenly became an entity distinct from the Jews, hence Jews were condemned first for following and then for not following Jesus.

Islam:

Traditional Islam had no problems with Judaism as a religion or a culture. Anti-Semitism in the Islamic world is simply a symptom of simple greed of rulers (but that was often mild compared to other forms), a symptom of Arab nationalism, and a symptom of so-called “Islamic fundamentalism”.

None of the three have anything to do with Islam. Corrupt Islamic rulers persecuted Jews not because of Islam but because they were corrupt. Arab nationalists persecute Jews not because of Islam but because of their rejection of Islam as their primary guidance (and because they simply persecute all non-Arab minorities). And “Islamic fundamentalists” are simply idol-worshipping pagans who follow a philosophy X and obviously have a problem with a people who do the exact opposite of X and are right and powerful because of it.

“I think it is somehow the hand of God”

I think so too.

But, Anna, I don’t think you understand the Jewish people (yet).

It’s a big family in many ways.
Roman Kalik on February 17th, 2008 9:19 pm

Secular Jews remain Jews in the national-ethnic sense for two “secular” main reasons, in my view:

1. Like it or not, Jews recieve an incredibly “extended family” kind of education. It still felt for at least a generation or two after the Jews in question leave the Jewish community, and the teachings of the faith. It rarely endures beyond that, though, unless the children or grandchildren reconnect with the community, the faith, or both.

2. Regardless of how much one tries to reshape himself, the larger society around one may give you its own label. Often, it is a label that it is used to giving you. Secular Jews in the late 19th century stayed Jews not insomuch through their own choice, but through the active effort of those around them who still marked them as Jews. And by “those around them” I don’t refer to the nice people around them, quite the contrary. Being hated, isolated from society, and being pushed back into a previous identity that you may have held, can result in one keeping this old self-identification through lack of any other choice.

But to be totally frank with you, I don’t hardly believe that this is *why* secular Jews survived, or why they were so hated (and the hatred, really, was mainly due to both being different, handy, *and* the uncanny survival - nothing makes you stamp harder like not succeeding the first time, especially after you’ve already rationalized the act - and then you teach that world view to the kiddies).

This is merely the how. History is full of small groups that either died out or were forcibly integrated when faced with the same circumstances as the Jews. Somehow, we lived on, and I have no *rational* explanation as to why. I merely have belief.
anna on February 17th, 2008 9:40 pm

Andrew,

“Judaism is not just a religion” yeah andrew, that’s why I asked why people hold onto their *ethnicity*.

“People like Woody Allen are not religious but they are definitely Jewish and visibly so.” yeah, the question was *why* jews hold onto their ethnicity.

Step1- why have Jews been singled out by nearly every people group and throughout all time?

Step 2- lots of successful hindus, muslims, christians, so?

Step 3- not really, chinese people exist everywhere, noone hates them. Indian people too tol a lesser extent and their are quite a few of them in forbes 500.

Step 4-quoi? no anyway.

you major on the fact that any anti semite probably is a failure in life- sorry, a lot of them are very successful people in life in terms of wealth, career etc

I was talking about global antisemitism btw.

“Anna, I don’t think you understand the Jewish people”. haha, noone heard that, right.

thanks for weighing in
anna on February 17th, 2008 9:56 pm

Roman,

1. “It still felt for at least a generation or two after the Jews in question leave the Jewish community.” yeah, we’re talking many generations, centuries ago, like say american Jews for instance.

2. doesn’t figure for the millions of Jews wordlwide who still hold onto their ethnicity despite noone really giving a fig or even assigning it to them. People only know if you tell them, which means you’re holding onto it and we’re back full circle.

and thanks for weighing in too.
anna on February 17th, 2008 10:01 pm

concentrate, delete american jews bit.
anna on February 17th, 2008 11:15 pm

btw, you guys need to make up your minds about what you believe. Secular people talking about the ‘hand of God’, just doesn’t add up.

(Andrew, I’m taking the ‘God’ instead of ‘G-d’ that you typed to mean you’re secular, as you didn’t say ‘we’)
Howie on February 18th, 2008 12:36 am

Anna-

Do you a hidden agenda here or are you really trying to understand?

Several of your counter points I find riduculous…like comparing our history and situation to that of the Chinese or people of India. There are NO parallels…none…

Let’s play fair…tell us…from a Christian, Muslim or Arab Nationalist or Leftist or whatever you are perspective…why do YOU think Jew-hate has been alive and thriving since well before the event or Islam or Christianity?

In terms of your first question…the basic answer is we are a People…some religious, some non-believers…some very nationalist…some not. That is what it is…

Why so many have hated SO terribly and for SO long? There is no one reason…there are lots of reasons…most having to do with ignorance, supersition, propoganda, political manipulation, cultural mores, education, scapegoating, convenience…and certainly because we were typically weak and defenseless, so people did it because they were allowed to.

But what is your take? You have not told us…
Roman Kalik on February 18th, 2008 4:55 am

Anna, shooting down every single factor separately just doesn’t do, because you tend to shoot them down in a disjointed manner and often by making unequal parallels.

If you want to look for a sociological answer (as you seem to be) then you have to take all the factors together, disconnected as they may appear. There is no single, special argument that works by making all others irrelevant.

Also, I’m not all that secular, to tell you the truth. I used to be, and I’m pretty much using my extensive experience with Russian Jews to build a theory, but I’m a very religious person today.

As for American Jews, why do you believe that they were secular for centuries? The large Jewish immigration waves to the US only started around a 130 years ago, and the majority of the immigrants were pretty religious Jews from Russia and Poland. The communities that were there before them weren’t all that secular, either, so American Jewish secularism is a relatively new event.

As for further factors regarding anti-Semitism, it pretty much started as standard minority persecution, mixed with religious justifications under Christian rule. Christianity viewed itself as an “inheritor faith”, meaning that it saw the mere continued existence of Jews as an insult to the belief that Jews have been made obsulete, and the political realities of feudal Europe, combined with the centralized power of the Papacy, meant that the hatred was taught just about anywhere a Catholic priest could be found.

The Orthodox Church was little better, except that it didn’t enjoy the same political power. The hatred of the Jew thus became the traditional view of Europe’s majority - the lowliest peasant of a feudal lord always knew that he had someone lowlier than him nearby. The feudal lord himself knew that he could always put that extra squeeze on Jews, or blame them for any evil, or chase them out, or simply kill them outright, and still gain Church favor along the way.

Realities changed, the Catholic Church waned and others rose in its stead - but they too believed they were the ones and onlies, and when Martin Luther (to bring an example) saw that his path (which he saw as a return to true Christian ways, as opposed to the Catholic establishment) wasn’t accepted by the Jews he approached, went on to write hate tracts about the Jews.

And the hatred became a daily affair. It was the common practice, and few objected to it. Shakespeare seemed to have Views on the matter (in Shylock, he crafted the traditional image of the Evil Jew as the masses saw Jews, and then turned the tables around by humanizing the character in every possible way - yet I think few noticed, and Shylock entered the lexicon of hate-labels), but few others of any import did. Cromwell didn’t have much against Jews, neither did some other European monarchs, but in the end… the hatred had become traditional.

The same hatred travelled with to the Colonies, I might add. Regardless of how persecuted a Christian minority you were, or how criminal, you could always be certain that The Jew was worse.

Arabic lands weren’t that much better, to be frank. Islam was also an expansionist inheritor faith, though it did not share the initial hostile phase with Judaism, or the political reality or centralized religious structure. Thus, Islam and Musjim lands tended to focus less on Jews - though the inheritor faith aspect still resulted in an ingrained sense of superiority that the average Muslim felt towards a Jew - which in itself resulted in cases of persecution that could go as far as genocide, forced conversion, and expulsion (Almuhad Dynasty, for example).
Roman Kalik on February 18th, 2008 5:12 am

Now, to expand a little further on my previous argument regarding secular Jews - we could look at this firstly from the perspective of first and second-generation purely secular Jews, who might see themselves as Jews due to family ties (to make Grandad happy), and a sense of belonging to a small group with which they feel more at home than with others due to shared history/culture. This sense of belonging to a smaller group would then be *reinforced* by people of the larger group around you identifying you as a Jew, be it due to your flimsy Jewish identity, your name (having a distinctive nameset is a good way of identifying someone) or through appearance (we *mostly* looked like everyone else - except we had telltale signs like Semitic features - noses became the anti-Semitic symbol). All factors must be taken together to form a coherent picture.

Also, Anna, the majority of secular Jews (or Jews who were integrated by conversion, for that matter) didn’t stay with the Jewish group. What you’re seeing is those who stayed - often being the exception rather than the majority. There aren’t that many of us Jews around, and merely by looking at estimates of Jewish populations throughout the ages does one realize that there should have been a lot *more* Jews around today. Except there aren’t. And that makes me wonder about what *might* have been.
Don Cox on February 18th, 2008 9:42 am

Howie: “Why so many have hated SO terribly and for SO long? There is no one reason.”

I can think of two main reasons.

One is the basic divide between the Romans and Greeks on the one hand, and the Jews and other Middle Eastern peoples on the other, which started with Alexander’s conquests and continued throughout the Roman Empire and Late Antiquity. It is the division into the uncircumcised and the circumcised. The origin of Christianity is about bringing religious ideas from one group to the other.

The other is that for many centuries, the Jews were the only noticeable immigrants into Europe. I think any group of immigrants from another culture would have faced the same hostility. The attitude of medieval Europe to the Jews was much the same as the attitude of the Arabs to the workers from India today. Later, the Gypsies arrived, and were treated as badly as the Jews.

(Nowadays, most countries in Europe are home to many immigrants from almost everywhere, and the Jews by comparison seem like old Europeans (or Americans).)

There is also some resentment of success - the Jews have contributed to the development of civilisation out of all proportion to their numbers - but I think this is more a feeling that such “inferior” beings should not be succeeding at all.
A on February 18th, 2008 9:46 am

I don’t think that there are absolutely no monologues to the Jewish experience (or at least parts of it.) Look at the Romani or the non-Christian religious minorities in West Asian Muslim countries (the non-Jewish ones like the Mandaeans, the Yezidis and Parsis have all had a very rough experience for centuries.) I agree that none of these persecutions lasted as long as that of the Jews or suffered such an attempted annihilation (even the Romani persecutions during the Shoah, which come the closest, depended on where they lived), but I think how Christians and Muslims treated Jews was sort of reflection of how they treated every minority. The only reason Jews were singled out was a) because there were more Jews than members of those other groups b) more people knew about Jews and c) both early Christians and Muslims sometimes felt the need to demonize Judaism to differentiate their religions (which would have seemed extremely similar to Judaism from a polytheistic perspective) from it. Later in the 19th century, the non-religious anti-semitism just picked up its themes from religious anti-semitism.
As for the existence of secular Jewish culture, I used to think the last part of Sartre’s Réflexions sur la question juive was somewhat persuasive on the topic, but what I read in the new Clive James on what Sartre was doing during the war makes a lot of his commentary on Judaism suspect.
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 9:54 am

“Andrew, I’m taking the ‘God’ instead of ‘G-d’ that you typed to mean you’re secular, as you didn’t say ‘we’”

I was quoting. I usually don’t type “G-d” without the dash.

I am not completely secular, as I observe holidays and go to shul every week. I prefer the term “rational”, but that also applies to really secular and religious people.

Roman is religious, I am not. But I wouldn’t call myself “secular”, as my belief in G-d does influence my life substantially.

Why would I say “we”? I cannot speak for too many people as I have little contact with anyone outside my community. And we are fairly isolated here in Ireland.

“we *mostly* looked like everyone else”

I have curly hair!
anna on February 18th, 2008 11:56 am

“Do you a hidden agenda here or are you really trying to understand?”

Howie, I point out that your argument doesn’t add up and so I must have an agenda. sweet. My personal beliefs should not change what you believe or do not believe. If you believe my motives to be questionable, you’re free not to comment.

“If you want to look for a sociological answer (as you seem to be) ” really I’m not Roman, I wanted to get the take of secular jews and was hoping that they could justify their actions rationally. I am just baffled by the very strong responses and emotions given here and elsewhere, by people who appear to be secular. A lot of the reasons given do apply to other people groups, whether you wish to accept that or not. ‘unequal parallels’ they are as equal as can be. Ofcourse I’m not gonna find another group of people who’ve had the exact same history as you but you can’t deny that there are other people groups that are also widely spread, successful, work in business but don’t ellicit quite the same reaction. Even all the reasons put together still don’t really provide enough justification for the history you guys have had.

Roman, your troubles began well before the people who claimed to be christian perpetrated their acts of hatred. Perians, Babylonians, Midianites, Amalekites, Egyptians, need i go on? Antisemitism is as old as time itself.

I’ve never spoken to a religious jew before, in any capacity. That’s two records you’ve broken there- first israeli I’ve come across, knowingly, and first ‘very religious’ Jew. I’m surprised at your willingness to mix with the gentile peoples, I usually find very religious jews very averse to making eye contact let alone conversing. Good thing the internet, you can converse with the plebs and not get defiled :P.

Andrew, still should be ‘G-d’, even in quotes :P. I thought in answering you were a secular jew and therefore speaking for your kind. Irish people are quite friendly (craic and all that), from personal experience, but I can understand why you wish to isolate.

Anyway, I’m most interested in the fact that you guys actually believe that your misfortune is due to the ‘hand of God’. If you truly believe that to be the case then why are you ranting against the people that *God* has put against you. Your argument lies with God, not man. Perhaps enquiring of Him, as to why your history, present and future is so filled with hardship would therefore make sense, no?
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 12:34 pm

“Andrew, still should be ‘G-d’, even in quotes :P. I thought in answering you were a secular jew and therefore speaking for your kind. Irish people are quite friendly (craic and all that), from personal experience, but I can understand why you wish to isolate.”

I do not change text I quote (except to correct obvious typos).

I am not Irish (but still fairly friendly) and neither do I wish to isolate. I just cannot speak for a larger community that I am not very much involved in.

“I’m most interested in the fact that you guys actually believe that your misfortune is due to the ‘hand of God’.”

Who said that? I think you are confusing the answers (or read what you want to read).

The question was:

“why do secular jews hold onto their ethnicity despite the fact that they have never lived in Israel […]?”

I too believe that the hand of G-d is the answer here.

Either way, I do not know any truly secular Jews in Ireland. I think they are rare in Europe and the British isles.
The Raccoon on February 18th, 2008 12:50 pm

Anna -

First, it’s nice to know that you have an agenda in asking your questions

Second -

In order to understand why secular Jews are Jews, you’d have to understand the Jewish mentality. And specifically, the Hebrew word “davka”. Davka means, roughly, “with the sole intent of defying the will of another”.

Secular Jews are ethnically Jewish because of our culture and history that we are soaked in;

We are ethnically Jewish because our ancestors were, and we respect them;

We are ethnically Jewish because we are genetically Jewish;

We are ethnically Jewish because that is the group we were born into;

We are ethnically Jewish because we are a successful little club, and as a Jew you know that other Jews will help you in your time of need…

And all the reasons that make a Brit Brit, a Swede Swede and a Maori Maori.

But we are also Jews davka. And the more oppressed we are for being Jews, the more Jewish we’ll be. The more pressure is applied to us, the more we’ll resist. Without anti-Semitism there would have been very few secular Jews by now.

We are Jews because to be a Jew is to resist two thousand years of hatred and attempted genocide… davka. And I want my descendants, a thousand years from now, to remember our enemies - like we do the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Philistines, Jebusites, Persians, etc - and laugh at them.

We exist to spite our enemies, outlive them, pee on their graves and make fun of their filthy memory for eternity.

PS

I am a secular Jew, but it is apparent to me as well that our continued survival and prosperity are a miracle - both as a people and as a state. I’d say it’s a miracle of our willpower and the strength of our traditions.
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 1:07 pm

Davka…

I always think that words ending on Aleph rather than Heh are Aramaic.

Either way, “davka”/”davke” also exists in Yiddish and means the same as in Hebrew.
Roman Kalik on February 18th, 2008 2:00 pm

really I’m not Roman, I wanted to get the take of secular jews and was hoping that they could justify their actions rationally. I am just baffled by the very strong responses and emotions given here and elsewhere, by people who appear to be secular

Well, to be totally frank, the people who replied to you the most so far (Howie, Andrew, and myself), are not “secular”, though I’m the only full-scale religious guy of the three. You’d best focus on Raccoon’s answer.

Roman, your troubles began well before the people who claimed to be christian perpetrated their acts of hatred. Perians, Babylonians, Midianites, Amalekites, Egyptians, need i go on? Antisemitism is as old as time itself.

The vast majority of that was standard conquest, enslavement, and general wars. The Amalekite thing is indeed worth noting, though having one tiny nation with a blood vendetta is still *somewhat* normal.

Antisemitism in its more familiar form began under the Hellenist conquest. Until then, it was pretty much business as usual, with some Persians in it to (mostly) improve affairs. It was in the Hellenist era that the first blood libels were born, where Jews were accused of sacrificing Greeks (Hellenic Syrians, really) in the Temple.

I’ve never spoken to a religious jew before, in any capacity. That’s two records you’ve broken there- first israeli I’ve come across, knowingly, and first ‘very religious’ Jew. I’m surprised at your willingness to mix with the gentile peoples, I usually find very religious jews very averse to making eye contact let alone conversing. Good thing the internet, you can converse with the plebs and not get defiled :P.

Well, my guess is that you’ve been abroad. England, maybe? Then you’ve probably stayed near a Hassidic Ultra Orthodox community, from your description. Probably one of the stricter ones. The men avoid looking at women, any women, with the exception of close blood relatives and those they simply can’t avoid. It had nothing to do with you not being Jewish.

In short, you need to get out a little more. :-p

Oh, and uh, not judge by the first impression.

Anyway, I’m most interested in the fact that you guys actually believe that your misfortune is due to the ‘hand of God’. If you truly believe that to be the case then why are you ranting against the people that *God* has put against you. Your argument lies with God, not man. Perhaps enquiring of Him, as to why your history, present and future is so filled with hardship would therefore make sense, no?

We’d do that, really we would, if not for the simple fact that minorities going through the same situation as we did should be, by all accounts, dead, be it *dead* dead or simply culturally dead (as in fully assimilated and dissipated).

And this was what happened in the vast majority of cases in world history.

From a scientific point of view, we shouldn’t even be here. We should have joined the graveyard of ancient cultures a long time ago, and yet somehow… we’re still here. If anything, I’m thankful that my people are still alive after all the crap that we lived through.
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 2:34 pm

“We should have joined the graveyard of ancient cultures a long time ago, and yet somehow… we’re still here.”

The Persians are still here too; but they were stronger, have changed religions a few times, and, I’m afraid, the nominal culture ended in 1979.

It could be revived still, hence I count them among the living.
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 2:45 pm

Speaking of actual Islamophobia in the blogsphere (in real life the problem is, I think, exaggerated), I stumbled upon this example today:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28971_Kosovo_Declares_Independence#comments

I am a fan of LGF’s reporting, but I am no fan of LGF’s (and especially the LGF’s comments section’s) attitudes towards Muslims.

They always see anything that involves (self-proclaimed) Muslims as representative for what Islam should be and hence now ran into an ideological problem with Kosovo, a clearly pro-western but Muslim nation/region.

But while I have seen rabid anti-Semitism in the blogsphere, I have yet to see Islamophobia to the same degree. LGF is already the worst example I know, and it’s still very civilised compared to its “competition” out there.
Howie on February 18th, 2008 4:30 pm

Guys-

We got suckered a bit by Anna. Of course she had a hidden agenda. My guess is that her angle is, ultimately we got what we deserved. She came up with some petty attacks at us…when we tried to give an honest assessment to a difficult question…I finally woke up and saw through it…geez.

Well Anna…now you understand Islamaphobia because in a subtle way…you represent the entire issue. We Jews always have a trust issue…that when folks like you appear to be decent and sincere..we still kind of feel you have a hidden agenda….and you do.

So you did not want to learn…you wanted ammunition to support your views which you are too dishonest to put out in the open here.

Same old story
anna on February 18th, 2008 6:05 pm

Andrew,
“hand of God” thing.

I thought it was your conclusion for the whole thing as you put it at the end of your comment as a standalone statement. I didn’t understand that it was in reference to the first question (why you still hold on to your ethnicity?). Therefore, answering because of the ‘hand of God’ didn’t really make sense as man is free to choose his beliefs. The argument I thought you put forward is not new though.

Roman

“The vast majority of that was standard conquest, enslavement, and general wars.” The point is it wasn’t easy going before the “christian” era, during or after. You have always had strife in one form or another. Yes other countries have had general wars, enslavement etc, but then things settled down for them.

“We’d do that, really we would, if not for the simple fact that minorities going through the same situation as we did should be, by all accounts, dead”- well know you wouldn’t do that because you’d be um, well dead. I think a slight variation would be worth asking, like why are we still here?
“get out more”- ha, little do you know of the considerable problems that are associated with doing that.

“graveyard of ancient cultures” touchy point dude, don’t go there! thanks for the building work though.

The Raccoon
wow, even jewish raccoons are paranoid :P. Never met a raccoon either, pleased to meet you sir.

thankyou for that, I know how you think now at least. The davka concept is certainly interesting. Please don’t let religious Jews answer for you next time. I shall say no more for fear of being pounced on and also Drima probably wants his blog back. Thanks Drima!

As for the end bit….”And I want my descendants, a thousand years from now, to remember our enemies - like we do the …..Egyptians” dude we only got you in to do some building work for us, not bad job by the way. You guys keep grudges for a long time and forget all the good things we did for you. We ain’t looking after anymore random babies in baskets floating up the river- capiche?

Howie,
Oh Howie, thanks for reminding me why I don’t generally exchange replies with you. It must require so much energy to sustain your very bitter spirit. Bravo for exposing my dark side though. But perhaps next time you could try reading the scriptures of your own religion - come back to me, won’t you?

Thanks to all!
Roman Kalik on February 18th, 2008 6:54 pm

The point is it wasn’t easy going before the “christian” era, during or after. You have always had strife in one form or another. Yes other countries have had general wars, enslavement etc, but then things settled down for them.

Things did settle down for us, for a while, well after both of our nations (Israel and Judea) were destroyed. And at the time, most of the others nations of the Levant had already been destroyed, too, thanks to imperial conquests, forced resettlement, and slavery. The difference being, we survived as a nation while they did not, which allowed us to restore a nation (albeit a semi-autonomous one) under the benevolence of the Persian Empire and Cyrus the Great.

Then other conquerors came, and tore the Persian Empire apart. Then more, and more, and more… nation after nation was destroyed around us, empires rose and fell and the small countries of the Middle East were ground into dust, as was ours yet again.

And still the Jews remain, somehow, holding up by the skin of the teeth.

I think a slight variation would be worth asking, like why are we still here?

A question many people ask themselves throughout the ages. Few answers are forthcoming.

ha, little do you know of the considerable problems that are associated with doing that.

Indeed I don’t, I merely have the stories of parents and grandparents who lived in the Soviet Union. When my parents and I left (me a young boy of five) the Soviet authorities tore up our passports, revoked our citizenship rights, and marked us as traitors of the Soviet Union.

As you may have guessed, we couldn’t actually leave the country until that day.

And I’m sure my parents had great fun playing games of Guess the KGB Informer.

touchy point dude, don’t go there! thanks for the building work though.

Don’t mention it. The bill should arrive eventually, we hope. It may have gotten lost in the post, it was quite unreliable in those days. Calculating the accumulated interest should be an interesting experience.

But perhaps next time you could try reading the scriptures of your own religion - come back to me, won’t you?

Although this wasn’t directed to me, are there any particular texts that you had in mind?
Howie on February 18th, 2008 7:01 pm

Anna-

My issue with you is that you were dishonest…You asked for people’s opinions and picked away at them…I guess because we did not tell you what you wanted to hear.

I did not say you had a dark side…I have no idea…because you did not have the integrity or honesty to come forth with what YOU believe…just baited us.

I have NO idea what you meant by me needing to read my own scriptures…I have…many times…and it says all kinds of stuff…what is your point?

“My bitter spirit”? Where, how? I think this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black…

So what is your entire point Anna? My guess is you wanted to hear “secular Jews do not believe in Israel or the Jewish people, that they are the ones primarily responsible for the re-establishment of ISrael, they had no religious basis for doing so…therefore they should never have done it and Israel should therefore be rendered invalid”.

But since you refuse to tell us what you think or believe…I have to assume this is more or less where you are coming from.

If I have a bitter spirit…it is only because you are obviously disingenuous…very smart obviously…but disingenuous…
Howie on February 18th, 2008 7:04 pm

Anna-

And with all that having been said…I am still glad you come here and share your ideas…if we all agreed on stuff…then we could go to cooking blogs or something…I only wish you would be a bit clearer on where you stand…

Love you

Howie
Drima on February 18th, 2008 7:04 pm

Phew! Finally?
Drima on February 18th, 2008 7:11 pm

And Andrew, thanks for that LGF link. Very interesting discussion going on there between you and those other Islamophobes who just like you said, are confused on whether or not they should be supportive since the people in question are Muslims.

Oh noooo… no such thing as a good Muslim. Wait there is… a dead one presumably.
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 7:24 pm

Anna,

“Andrew,
“hand of God” thing.
I thought it was your conclusion for the whole thing as you put it at the end of your comment as a standalone statement. ”

You are confusing yourself, and I can only hope it is not deliberate.

It was Howie who gave that answer, not me. And he was clearly replying to your first question.

Only YOU made the connection between anti-Semitism and the hand of G-d, and, frankly, I find it scary that anybody could make such a connection!

Drima,

“you and those other Islamophobes”

Want to rephrase that part?
Howie on February 18th, 2008 7:48 pm

Drima-

I was only irritated when I realized I was being manipulated in the guise of an honest discussion…

I don’t expect Anna to agree with me…but let’s at least say what we are up to and where we stand…she never did…yet keep hacking at our attempts to try to answer a very difficult question…

If her mind was made up, and I think it was…then what was the point?
anna on February 18th, 2008 8:00 pm

That was in relation to Howie’s rant about the ‘hand of God’ issue. Roman, the entire Tanakh consists of: Israel angers God, God raises foreign armies against it- I did not write this! Please take up with God.

Loads of examples. The ones that come to mind… Judges 2:6-23 with focus on v13-14 and also v19-23.

Babylonian invasion- Daniel 1v1-2 and this is echoed in Daniel’s petition: 9 v4-6 gives the context and v12-14 the result. Again in 2 Chronicles 36v 15-20 with focus on v17

Like the whole of Chronicles and kings, a couple of examples 2 chronicles 12 v1-2 and 17 v7-23

I don’t know if it’s appropriate to post stuff like this on here. Drima, delete this if appropriate.
Howie on February 18th, 2008 8:16 pm

Lawd:

“Howie’s rant”…hmmm.

Anna…I still have NO idea what you point is…I would like to understand…

Scriptures says lots of stuff and contradicts itself…

Did you know scripture refers to God making a great nation of Egypt and that a road will be built for Egypt to Assyria etc etc. It also talks about Egypt being punished etc etc. It talks about Jews being punished and rewarded, and rejected and accepted back. It talks about Palestinians being punished with hemmorids and when they bleed little mice come and eat the blood. It talks about horrible punishments and talks about holding kindness, compassion and justice in the highest regard. Kids were killed for calling a prophet “baldy” and David was forgiven for murder and made a great king of kings.

So what is your point Anna? Really…you continue to criticize and snipe but you have not said one single thing about what you think or believe.

So I will say it again…you are dishonest.
Roman Kalik on February 18th, 2008 9:33 pm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15810/jewish/Chapter-2.htm

The above link is Shoftim (Judges), chapter 2. Read the chapter in its entirety, Anna, verse by verse. And let’s ask ourselves exactly what’s written there, shall we? 20-23 are the important verses here, as they sum up the part of the chapter that you appear to have in mind.

To sum it up, with a bit of humor: Israelites break their end of covenant, Almighty Lord gets a bit vexed from playing the Heavenly Savior all the time without seeing the other end of the bargain kept, and retracts His protection from the Jews.

So instead of winning their wars easily, the Israelites had to eat the humble pie for a while and realize that living *without* heavenly protection meant not *living*, because they *weren’t* a great and mighty nation in any sense of the word, and could be crushed easily by anyone with some thugs and a sense of direction.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16484/jewish/Chapter-1.htm

Daniel 1: The kingdom of Judea was at the time already de-facto conquered by Babylon. Jehoiakim was both a sinner and a fool, and his rebellion - along with his eventual capture, did not receive any divine blessing. It was really a blessing in itself that Jehoiakim and the arrogant and stupid nobility were the ones delivered to the Babylonian seat of power, with Judea left largely intact.

Word for the wise: Don’t rebel against great imperial powers when you no longer enjoy the divine support that you once did. Kindly focus on the divine support first, and get the first hint when it’s being dangled in front of you - as in, for all intents and purposes, the people of Judea should have been dead already rather than escaping with such mild effects from a great rebellion.

Further divine favor would be lost in the next rebellious act.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16492/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

You should have really went for Jeremiah from the onset for this one, rather than focusing on a later-day prophet’s commentary *about* Jeremiah’s prophesies. In any case, the “evil” of Divine source in the Babylonian invasion was not the invasion itself, nor the rise of the dynasty.

It was simply in the fact that for once, there wasn’t going to be any defense against the imperial invader, no help to safeguard the Hebrews from their own stupidity and weakness. No miracles in the field of battle, no divine routing and a joyous return home.

This time, the Hebrews were completely and utterly on their own. At least in the field of war, a war which they brought upon themselves rather than try and realize their actual reality - both in the military sense and the divine protection part.

And still, somehow, some still survived that great war and exile… quite a few, in fact… and for all intents and purposes, they shouldn’t have.

If you read into other battles and wars of the Israelites (those against the Philistines, for example) the matter of Divine Favor and Divine Protection are clearly set. They obey the Almighty, the win. They don’t and they get beaten up.

The big message to the Jews here is quite simple: If you think that it was your strength and the might of your arms that brought you this, then you are sorely mistaken. Distance yourselves from the Almighty by going against the proper path and rules you must keep, and the further you push Him away - the less you’ll get to see of His blessing.

Going in the other direction is advisable.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16585/jewish/Chapter-36.htm

The same. Verse 15 discusses the attempts of the Almighty, through chosen messengers and prophets, to return the People of Israel to the path that leads them closer to Divinity. Verse 17 discusses what happens when the divine protection is no longer there, and the local genocidal warlord doesn’t lose the battle against the Israelites anymore.

We could keep going like this forever, but the essential issue is in how we interpret the texts in question, while keeping the context at hand. You seem to take the “fire and brimstone, do what I say or I hit you with lightning” literal-minded interpretation. I have a different approach, one that also has a learned conclusion (most Jewish interpretations and religious debates end in such a matter - else, what is their point?) -

Move closer to the Almighty, and the Almighty will be closer to you. Move away, and he will be farther from you. The choice is yours, and every little thing you do tips the scales one way or another.

And also, just a little point that I tried to make earlier time and time again (as did others) - it would seem that no matter how much evil the Almighty “brings” (or simply doesn’t stop), the Jews seem to survive. Seems that Someone’s cushioning their fall after all… That’s how I see it. No matter how far away the Jews may push the Almighty, He still loves Jews enough to keep us around, and makes sure that the world (and the freely made choices of others) don’t crush us utterly…
Howie on February 18th, 2008 10:03 pm

RK-

Well done

It has a lot to do with the perplexing problem of the interaction of free will and pre-destiny…and nobody has figured how they fully interact…

And some other factors
Andrew Brehm on February 18th, 2008 10:36 pm

“He still loves Jews enough to keep us around, and makes sure that the world (and the freely made choices of others) don’t crush us utterly…”

My sentiments exactly.

In fact, modern Israel’s survival has been nothing short of miraculous, and I often find myself wondering whether the Arab nations are not on the receiving end of what their own prophet told them about the children of Israel and the land given to them by G-d.

(Roman, my favourite term to use for the Almighty is the term Ephraim Kishon used in his German texts: “die hoechste Stelle”. It means literally “the highest instance” but in German means really the top position in an unspecified bureaucracy.)
Howie on February 18th, 2008 11:06 pm

AB

“(Roman, my favourite term to use for the Almighty is the term Ephraim Kishon used in his German texts: “die hoechste Stelle”. It means literally “the highest instance” but in German means really the top position in an unspecified bureaucracy.”

I like the Hawaiian term

The Big Kahuna

hey…surf’s up
anna on February 18th, 2008 11:13 pm

Drima, last one honest, so sorry and thanks for bearing with us.

Roman
I don’t know why you think you have interpreted it differently. You’ve just taken the ‘defeat is passive’ route, as in God just removes his protection, which he did in Judges 2v20-23. Splitting hairs. Move down to 3 v8 and you have: “the anger of the Lord burned against Israel so that *He sold them* into the hands of Cushan- Rishathaim king of Aram Naharaim to whom the ISraelites were subject for eight years.” Your point?

Whether it was done actively as in this case or passively, the fact is Israel rebels and they go through a bad time, as a result of their rebellion.

Babylonian invasion
“It was simply in the fact that for once, there wasn’t going to be any defense against the imperial invader, no help to safeguard the Hebrews from their own stupidity and weakness.”

No Roman, sorry it wasn’t just that. The Babylonian invasion, He *actively* delivered the jews into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.

Jeremiah 27v6 (said to Jeremiah)
“Now I will *hand all your countries over* to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon”

happy?

I will post the other verses for Andrew, who thinks the links that the Tanakh makes are scary:

2 Chronicles 12: 1-2
“After Rehoboam’s position as king was established and he had become strong, he and all Israel abandoned the law of the Lord. *Because they had been unfaithful* to the Lord, Shishak king of Egypt attacked Jerusalem in the fifth year of King Rehoboam.”

v5″This is what the Lord says: You have abandoned me: therefore I now abandon you to Shishak”

2Kings 17 v20 specifically
“Therefore the Lord rejected all the people of Israel; he afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he *thrust* them from his presence.”

“And also, just a little point that I tried to make earlier time and time again (as did others) - it would seem that no matter how much evil the Almighty “brings” (or simply doesn’t stop), the Jews seem to survive.”- why repeat it since I never disagreed.

“and the freely made choices of others” no disagreements.

You don’t need to hide behind the cop out that is your take my take, when you’re effectively arguing the same thing, albeit in more beautiful prose. Finally, what a shame that you do not hold up your friends to the same standards of integrity that you expect from those across the border. Anyway, I’ve had enough, I’m out.

(Sorry Drima, but again delete if need be. Great blog and we possibly need to clone you)
Howie on February 18th, 2008 11:26 pm

Drima, RK, AB, Raccoon-

I am honestly curious…what is Anna’s point? What is she asking for? What is she so angry about? I honestly do not get it and freely admit I may have misunderstood her…

I am genuinely curious. She lost me.
Andrew Brehm on February 19th, 2008 12:09 am

“I am honestly curious…what is Anna’s point?”

I don’t know.

But she has again addressed me. Did I say the links the Tanakh makes are scary???
A on February 19th, 2008 4:52 am

She seems like a pretty straightforward supersessionist. I recently had the misfortune of spending an entire bus ride to Boston with a seat next to a baptist supersessionist and his arguments were fairly similar. Nevertheless, the discussion about anti-semitism is kind of interesting, despite the person who initiated it.
Howie on February 19th, 2008 5:07 am

A-

I am kind of suspecting a Christian Replacement Theorist? Is that like a supersessionist?

I am serious…I am curious…I can’t make out what her point is.
Roman Kalik on February 19th, 2008 5:08 am

Anna, I’m not sure what you mean about me not holding my friends to the same standards of integrity as I do with others. If you mean that I should have criticized Howie for his reaction, then I’m sorry to tell you that you have created the impression that he has reacted to on your own - and to be frank, I’m not fully sure what you wanted to hear here, either. You haven’t exactly behaved as one wanting to hear answers out of curiosity, more like one unhappy that the pupils haven’t given you the right answer to a question that you know the answer for. This tends to make people both suspicious and annoyed, because it implies that you haven’t made you intentions open from the beginning.

Or maybe I should have criticized Raccoon, a man I’ve known long enough to know when he writes with a sense of humor in hand, and when he doesn’t? Not that he’s hiding it much, mind.

Or Andrew? To be frank, you’ve been either misunderstanding what he meant and even putting words in his mouth. The latter deserves an apology.

So what do you expect of *me*? Or of any of us here?
Roman Kalik on February 19th, 2008 5:56 am

As for your further Biblical references, we could argue *active* versus *passive* for all eternity, or what “active” or “passive” even mean in this context. In Jeremeiah’s time, the nation of the Israelites was already in the hands of the Babylonian conquest - so what did he mean by the *active* reference? Was Jeremiah, divinely inspired, referring to what had already happened, or to what was (or rather, wasn’t) happening in the present?

As for Judges 3, the correct translation is “handed over”, which still retains your active meaning. But, and here’s the cinch, when a defender and bestower of victories takes away his much-required help, what essentially happens? Handing-over, because the might of Israelite arms alone wasn’t at all enough.

As for your Chronicles reference, the original text differs slighty from your quote. “And it came to pass… that Shishak the king of Egypt marched against Jerusalem for they had betrayed the Lord.” the following questions arise - is Shishak some unthinking beast, or did he attack because he saw a weakened nation, and got all the way to Jerusalem because the Lord did not assist the Israelites in the war?

And still the Jews remain.
A on February 19th, 2008 6:11 am

Howie-ya, same thing. At least she still didn’t get into the argument about how babies who died in Auschwitz can’t get into heaven, like bus guy did. I really don’t understand how this is supposed to convert Jews (I assume that is the intention since the guy was also talking about how becoming a religious member of his Christian sect changed his life and Anna seems to maybe have the same intention.)
Roman Kalik on February 19th, 2008 8:34 am

A, I sincerely doubt Anna has that in mind.
The Raccoon on February 19th, 2008 10:26 am

“We ain’t looking after anymore random babies in baskets floating up the river- capiche?”

LOL

One of the beefs I have with Islam is the destruction of the Egyptian civilization. That’s just a godsdamn waste.

You guys enjoy your fun religious arguments… seems interesting enough… pity about all the negativity :/

One last thing:

LGF has some real psychopaths commenting there. Not Islamophobes - real psychos who actually hate Muslims for being Muslims and Arabs for being Arabs. I don’t read LGF comments because there’s too many scary ones.
The Raccoon on February 19th, 2008 10:28 am

PS -

Drima -

One of the reasons I love you blog is because of these discussions. Kind of reminded me of this thread
anna on February 19th, 2008 7:33 pm

Despite, finishing up on the last post. I decided it is better to look a fool and comment again due to the liberal use of very nasty terms in relation to me. I take such accusations very seriously, even if they are just comments on the internet, by people I don’t know and who don’t know me. So I will respond in the hope that those comments were not made to antagonise me and that that’s what you genuinely believe.

First up, intentions. discussions usually involve people communicating their ideas to each other about a particular topic. People may disagree or agree as to the validity or strength of your argument. If one is quite unable to have someone disagree with them, then one should not engage in said discussion. That would be the normal route. However, because I disagreed with the strength of the points made, the unpleasant personal accusations started flying. That’s quite pathetic. I did not note any intentions because a) they are not necessary to having a discussion and b) a civilised request was never made c) if you’d read what I had typed, it was actually given. However, for the sake of argument my reason, again, was pure and simple curiosity which got wonderfully twisted by Howie into something quite elaborate (you have quite the imagination- seriously give your mind a rest) which unfortunately made everyone get suspicious guarded and resort to assigning me vile beliefs and labels.

Second, This whole debacle was as a result of the religious people answering questions that they shouldn’t have answered in the first place. The questions were clearly directed at secular jews and not religious jews.

“hmmm, a couple of questions for the secular Jews reading this…” is what I stated right at the very start.

The religious people should have kindly kept quiet and not answered. I did not bring up the ‘God’ issue,nor wish to do so. It was infact brought up by people answering the questions, who shouldn’t have been.

The ‘misunderstaning’- this is where it all started,

“None of the three have anything to do with Islam. Corrupt Islamic rulers persecuted Jews not because of Islam but because they were corrupt. Arab nationalists persecute Jews not because of Islam but because of their rejection of Islam as their primary guidance (and because they simply persecute all non-Arab minorities). And “Islamic fundamentalists” are simply idol-worshipping pagans who follow a philosophy X and obviously have a problem with a people who do the exact opposite of X and are right and powerful because of it.

“I think it is somehow the hand of God”

I think so too.”

I didn’t misunderstand at all, but decided to say that to diffuse a potentially ugly situation, which sadly didn’t work. That was the last bit of Andrew’s comment, he goes from talking about anti semitism (2nd question) to talking about the hand of God. Ofcourse, to the fair person, that quote either has some realtion to the previous paragraph or it is the concluding statement since it has been put at the end. There is no way anyone would take that quote as being in answer to the first question, to a reasonable person- but we obviously don’t do reasonable.

At first I thought everyone was playing stupid, as they were talking about the ‘hand of God’ in a negative sense (an idea that is from your own scritpures) but then denying the idea that yes your scriptures do indicate that God did bring about passively or actively several wars to Israel’s door. So Roman, I was calling on you as the orthodox jew to point this out to your friends as I thought they were just messing, thinking that I had no idea of the scriptures. However, I now know that they possibly do not actually know what the scripture says. AS for your other accusations, well I’m getting a bit desensitised to unsubstantiated farcical accusations, so I won’t respond.

The reaction of A to assign to me vile beliefs was very low. Instead of trying to engage with me in discussion and show why s/he disagrees, you start sticking nasty labels. Perhaps if you’d bothered to read the comment written by Roman (an orthodox jew), you’d see that he does agree with said idea, albeit with some variation.

Unfortunately the religious corner loses to the secular one as Raccoon was definitely the one with the most pleasant attitude and response. Thankyou. Humour goes a long way with the people next door.

Wow, this has been long. That is all folks and I will make a point of never discussing any point to do with your religion or ethnicity again. And for the record, I do not harbour any ill feeling towards you as a group, never have done and never will.
Roman Kalik on February 19th, 2008 8:44 pm

However, for the sake of argument my reason, again, was pure and simple curiosity

Thank you. I believe that this discussion could have been handled better, by all involved.

discussions usually involve people communicating their ideas to each other about a particular topic. People may disagree or agree as to the validity or strength of your argument

This is true. But replying in one-liner shoot-downs created the impression that you found the arguments so incredibly far away from your own opinion, that they did deserve due consideration in your eyes.

Also, *sharing* ideas is the important thing here. This is something that you did not really do in this one, thus creating the impression of an opinion that you did not wish to reveal just yet.

Combine the two above, and the result may easily be suspicion.

I didn’t misunderstand at all, but decided to say that to diffuse a potentially ugly situation, which sadly didn’t work. That was the last bit of Andrew’s comment, he goes from talking about anti semitism (2nd question) to talking about the hand of God. Ofcourse, to the fair person, that quote either has some realtion to the previous paragraph or it is the concluding statement since it has been put at the end. There is no way anyone would take that quote as being in answer to the first question, to a reasonable person- but we obviously don’t do reasonable.

It was marked as a quote, though the answer was indeed out of order. “There is no way” is a pretty extreme statement, but the resulting confusion does indeed become understandable.

At first I thought everyone was playing stupid, as they were talking about the ‘hand of God’ in a negative sense (an idea that is from your own scritpures) but then denying the idea that yes your scriptures do indicate that God did bring about passively or actively several wars to Israel’s door.

This is where you made a mistake, Anna. Howie’s initial reply wasn’t about anti-Semitism - it was about why Jews still remain Jews even when not religious. Howie started out as purely secular. His family was a very clear example of totally secular Jews.

He was, in fact, replying to your questions *in the order that they were asked in*, and (him being a Jew) as a man who views as the survival of the Jewish identity as something positive.

All subsequent mentions in this vein were also in a positive sense. You were the one who first brought them up in the negative sense, which looked pretty weird to those of us who brought it in the positive sense.

So Roman, I was calling on you as the orthodox jew to point this out to your friends as I thought they were just messing, thinking that I had no idea of the scriptures. However, I now know that they possibly do not actually know what the scripture says.

And thus the confusion deepened even further, because the *context* of bringing up the Almighty in this issue was lost along the way - Anna, we were basically talking at cross-purposes in this case, we were on parallel lines but these lines didn’t seem to cross often because we lost each other’s ideas along the way.

Unfortunately the religious corner loses to the secular one as Raccoon was definitely the one with the most pleasant attitude and response. Thankyou. Humour goes a long way with the people next door.

Raccoon has a great sense of humor - now, if we can only get him to stop looking for leftovers in our dumpsters…

Wow, this has been long.

*bows* The calling card of Jews, if you will.

That is all folks and I will make a point of never discussing any point to do with your religion or ethnicity again.

Now, now, don’t go that far. If we avoid speaking about interesting issues simply because we’ve made a blunder or two in the past, we wouldn’t speak with anyone about much at all.

I think we should give it a try further, Anna, if only to learn more about each other.

And for the record, I do not harbour any ill feeling towards you as a group, never have done and never will.

Thank you. Though the circumstances at hand made me doubt this slightly, I’m glad that my initial impression of you has now been reaffirmed. We should have really cleared up this mess earlier.
A on February 20th, 2008 12:34 am

Sorry about that. I’ve just never seen a discussion with bible quotes about God punishing Jews end well. I think I wasn’t prepared to take your position positively because of two recent incidents, one of which I mentioned, where people started with this argument. It’s kind of funny since I do have big problems with some parts of the Jewish bible anyway. My sincere apologies for accusing you without rationally examining the situation.
Drima on February 20th, 2008 5:58 am

“I’ve just never seen a discussion with bible quotes about God punishing Jews end well”

LOL!!

I’m telling you people, a few more blogs, a little more ranting and before we know it we’ll all be one big happy family.

Shalom!
Andrew Brehm on February 20th, 2008 11:33 am

“There is no way anyone would take that quote as being in answer to the first question,”

I thought my answer following the quote was my answer to the quote.

What the text quoted referred to must be determined from the article it was quoted from.

But everything does make more sense now. Thank you.