… the suffering of countless people usually continues unnoticed and uncared for.
We need Israelis to step into Darfur, because when they do the Arab media will blast the spotlight on the nastiness taking place there… and they’ll blame it on the Jews.
We need a few Zionists to walk around the slums at the outskirts of Khartoum because when they do, people will finally discover and realize the amount of misery that exists there… and then in a fraction of a second, they’ll somehow blame it on the Jews.
At the Altar of Palestine, we sacrifice our issues. Mona Eltahawy isn’t alone in what she thinks because indeed, there can be no denying the obvious.
For decades, successive dictators in the Arab world have sacrificed their respective national concerns on the altar of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, telling us it must be resolved before any kind of progress can be made, whether it’s stopping terrorism, embracing democracy or ending poverty. Unsurprisingly, despite peace with Israel for the past 29 years, Egypt still suffers from all those problems.
As long as Palestinians suffer under the evil Zionists, there cannot be any progress in our nations. As long as Jews are alive, our problems will not go away. We must rid ourselves of this cancer. Must we not?
Arab media, particularly the state-owned kind, are equally discouraged from focusing on national issues — such as the desperate state of our slums — and instead devote most newsprint and airtime to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or Iraq. The latter never got much attention when Saddam Hussein was filling mass graves with Shi’ites and Kurds, but catapulted to the top of the news bulletins when the Arab world’s other bete noire — the United States — invaded Iraq in 2003.
Ah, how could I forget those Americans — the Big Satan? Once we’re done with the Little Satan, we’ll turn our sights to the Big one — the land of alcohol, porn, Las Vegas and the root of all evil.
Let’s shelter our oppressed Palestinian brothers. Let’s put them first before any of those living a few feet away from us. They deserve more help. The problems in our own backyards don’t matter, and for many they don’t even exist, but those that are miles and miles away from us do — through our television screens, the radios’ shouts and screams, opinions of the Arab streets, and our schools’ books and distorted dreams.
Oh Lord, destroy the sons of pigs and apes. They are our wonderful leaders’ deadly Weapons of Mass Distraction.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
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Speak it brother! The truth of the matter is that as long as there is a “common” enemy, the leaders will always find something and someone to blame. This is why it really bothers me when I discuss Darfur with other Sudanese, even some of the self-proclaimed educated ones. They buy into this “it’s the Jewish conspiracy to dominate Sudan” and “the Nile to the Euphrates”-bit. Not only does it bother me, it really makes me angry.
The only people that should be blamed for our shortcomings and disasters are our leaders and our own selves for our complacency.
Peace (for all).
AK
Let’s ALL freaking speak it. I am getting so sick of this garbage.
As for the whole “Nile to the Euphrates” conspiracy, Israel would have never given back Sinai (an area almost 10 times the size of modern day Israel) to Egypt in return for peace if the goal was indeed as assumed.
“As for the whole “Nile to the Euphrates” conspiracy”
Frankly, I have heard what the region between the Nile and Sinai and between Israel and the Euphrates is like.
I don’t want it.
The Sinai is nice, I hear, but it’s not Israel.
i love the sinai.. i feel totally at home there.. i dont care however that i dont get to vote..
the beaches are just as frikkin beautiful for citizens as they are for tourists..
Unfortunately you are not very different from these people Dirma. The more I read your blog the more of an Israeli apologist you seem to become.
Obviously in your blogging spirit Gaza does not deserve that much, maybe it even cluttered your wavelengths. Nor the continuous and systematic oppression of Palestinians moves that much blood in your veins.
This is what I call a fabricated article not just a fallacious one. Where in order to justify that Israel is not bad and that it is our leaders (who without a doubt are stinking bad), you make light of the plight of our fellow Palestinians by equating their plight to the evil doings of our leaders.
Surely Israel can not be blamed for all our personal problems but its ‘creation’ has and continues to destabilize the region. Any dictator or power hungry freak will be stupid not make use of this anger to further push their own agendas. But in no means does this render the plight of the Palestinians as invalid nor does it mean that we should not worry or support their cause. Israel is evil! Actually it is VERY EVIL!
Until Israel realizes that in order for it to exist “Peacefully” then this “War-Monger” mentality it has must stop. It must allow ALL the refuges to return. It MUST withdraw to the 67 borders. It must end all forms of occupation and settlements ( and not insult our intelligence because Israel never left Gaza it just surrounded it better making it the worlds largest prison)and all Israeli presence in East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the Shiba (Spelling?) Farms must end. Then and only then, will there be peace in the middle east and the region as a whole.
The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust
I find it interesting that the Arabs were themselves used to free this land from the Turks while they were stabbed in the back by the West who “Created” this Israel on the lands of the Arabs.
[quote]
I find it interesting that the Arabs were themselves used to free this land from the Turks while they were stabbed in the back by the West who “Created” this Israel on the lands of the Arabs.
[/quote]
1. It took the British lots of effort to convince the Arabs to contribute anything at all.
2. If you think Israel is a problem think of all the other, larger countries that have been established by the British and French (Jordan, Syria, Iraq…).
“Until Israel realizes that in order for it to exist “Peacefully” then this “War-Monger” mentality it has must stop. It must allow ALL the refuges to return. It MUST withdraw to the 67 borders. It must end all forms of occupation and settlements”
3. That would bring Israel back to the 1948 situation, which made the Arabs attack. Why do you think it would be different now?
4. What war-monger mentality? Are you referring to the Arab “throw the Jews into the sea”-mentality that has caused so many wars or Israel’s philosophy of defending itself?
5. What about the Jewish refugees? They could hardly return to Arab lands, could they? What’s the point of “returning” Arab refugees to Israel? They left because their Arab brethren told them to and very few of them ever actually lived in Israel. Most were born in Jordan or Lebanon or elsewhere and have no connection to Israel except what Arab nationalists tell them.
6. Why do so many Arabs want to “return” to Israel? I thought Israel was such a terrible place? Jewish refugees certainly do not want to return to Arab countries.
“But in no means does this render the plight of the Palestinians as invalid nor does it mean that we should not worry or support their cause.”
Actually, what renders their plight invalid is the fact that they WANTED this war. They voted for Hamas and against the peace treaty.
If you are looking for war-mongers to blame for the war, look in the “destroy Israel” camp. You might just find one or two war-mongers.
I am sorry Drima, but what the hell! What has Israel or Arabs have to do with Sudan!
The problems of the Sudanese are purely Sudanese. The situation of the people living on the margin will only change if these so called intellectual elites of Khartoum stop their obsession with all these issues that have nothing to do with the ordinary Sudanese people and aim at improving their country. What can the international community possibly do?
If you have people from Khartoum claiming that these damn outsiders should go back to where they came from, that they are polluting Khartoum and when the entire system is controlled by a tribalistic northern elite that holds the best jobs and position for their own children, how can these people possibly have a chance.
Until the attitude of the Northern elite changes, Sudan will not go forward; you don’t need the international community to do that for you.
“What has Israel or Arabs have to do with Sudan!”
Absolutely nothing.
I guess that was Drima’s point.
Surely Israel can not be blamed for all our personal problems but its ‘creation’ has and continues to destabilize the region. Any dictator or power hungry freak will be stupid not make use of this anger to further push their own agendas. But in no means does this render the plight of the Palestinians as invalid nor does it mean that we should not worry or support their cause. Israel is evil! Actually it is VERY EVIL!
Israel is no more a “creation” than any other post-colonial country. Get used to that fact of life, or start going around and tearing down every single state in the Middle-East, why don’t you?
Until Israel realizes that in order for it to exist “Peacefully” then this “War-Monger” mentality it has must stop. It must allow ALL the refuges to return. It MUST withdraw to the 67 borders. It must end all forms of occupation and settlements ( and not insult our intelligence because Israel never left Gaza it just surrounded it better making it the worlds largest prison)and all Israeli presence in East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the Shiba (Spelling?) Farms must end. Then and only then, will there be peace in the middle east and the region as a whole.
Interesting. So Israel is a “war monger” because it “occupies land” that was used to attack it? Interesting. Most interesting. The attacked is the aggressor… I love that logic.
As for Gaza, you forget the little details, don’t you? Israel left Gazans the entirety of the agricultural infrastructure, which they destroyed instead of using for their own benefit. Instead of proving to Israel that they can live side by side, they started shooting rockets even further into Israel proper, which brought about the closure and lack of economic aid.
And Israel is the warmonger here, yes? Please, stop telling everyone what Israel MUST do, and how Evil Israel is to blame due to its very existence and must pay penance for all time. I tire of that crap, really.
The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust
Oh bother… And your point is… That Israel is almighty Pharaoh that puts its evil power-hungry shadow over the entire ME, right? Cliche, dehumanizing, and just plain stupid.
I find it interesting that the Arabs were themselves used to free this land from the Turks while they were stabbed in the back by the West who “Created” this Israel on the lands of the Arabs.
Oh for… Look, newsflash, buddy. The Middle-East is not Arab property. There other people living around here, and who have lived here for quite some time, be they Jews or Kurds. It’s your “Arabs own it, you go die now” attitude that let Arabs throughout the Middle-East turn a blind eye when Saddam Hussein was massacring the Kurds, and it’s this very attitude that allows you to view Israel as some outsider entity (second newsflash, bud, you kicked all the Jews living in Arab countries into Israel. Are they Arabs too, or don’t they count?)
“What has Israel or Arabs have to do with Sudan!”
Absolutely nothing.
I guess that was Drima’s point.
Yeah, half the point of the post, really.
In deed not only is this interesting but laughable!
First of all you must understand the following; being sarcastic is cute but it does not help you build nor defend your argument unless your debating with a teenager with self esteem issues. I’m not your brother, buddy nor friend
Yes almost all of todays Arab borders were created by the Colonial powers but that does not justify Israel’s creation (The Balfour Declaration?). And you know this very well, simply because the original inhabitants were either forced out of their lands, killed, terrorized or bought out and in their place ‘immigrants’ based on belief were settled in these lands. So this following argument of yours is invalid
“”" Israel is no more a “creation” than any other post-colonial country. Get used to that fact of life, or start going around and tearing down every single state in the Middle-East, why don’t you?”"”"
It is not a fact and I honestly do understand why you want the whole world to believe so because it would justify not only your existence but the ‘dirty means’ you deploy.
Lately I’ve been realizing the excessive use of Arab Jews Migration as an excuse to why Israel should not allow the return of Palestinian Refuges not only are the arguments weak but in direct violation of international law (Do I have to copy and paste the UN resolutions?).
Regardless they are more than welcome back.
No one kicked any Sudanese Jew out of Sudan and if any of them try to return and are denied re-entry I will be one of the first to advocate for their right of return, even though they do not fit the legal definition of ‘refuge’ since they were mostly ‘MIGRANTS’ who migrated to Israel
And yes Israel is a War-Monger, that uses the pretext of self defense to oppress and occupy others. It is this very mentality that will not allow peace a chance.
Israelis would be very surprised with the welcome they will receive in the region once they are 100% fair to the Palestinian Refugees, return all the land they are occupying and allow Palestinians to live a life of dignity. Until then you can dig your head as deep as you want in the sand and believe only what your Zionist peers tell you.
Shalom
The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust.
Cosign Amru, well put and right on point.
“And yes Israel is a War-Monger, that uses the pretext of self defense to oppress and occupy others. It is this very mentality that will not allow peace a chance.”
Really? It is the mentality of self defence that is a problem?
Very well.
Your “oppressed” in Gaza have a higher standard of living than Egyptians.
“Israelis would be very surprised with the welcome they will receive in the region once they are 100% fair to the Palestinian Refugees”
We have seen that “welcome” in 1948. We were surprised.
Is it not remarkable that Israel does not start wars with countries it is at peace with? It’s the mentality of self defence. The best way to avoid war with Israel is not to attack it.
“Do I have to copy and paste the UN resolutions?”
Yes, please! They are always funny.
People who bring up the UN usually confuse “international law” with opinions of certain member states and often cannot read.
The resolution in question says:
“Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date”
The key words are “live at peace”. But the “Palestinians” are not willing to “live at peace” with the Jews. If they were, they wouldn’t have joined the Arab attack in 1948.
As for the Sudanese and other Arab Jews, we have had the discussion before. You and the Arab Jews happen to disagree about why they left; and it doesn’t matter how “welcome” returning Arab Jews would be to you, the majority of Arabs would simply murder them and you know it.
I am also suspicious of what “welcome” means to you. According to you the Arab attitude towards Israel if the refugee problem had been solved would be “welcoming”, yet we have seen that “welcome” in 1948, before there was a refugee problem.
Drima-
Those that are criticizing you seem to miss your most important point…which is the scapegoatism. However, it is nice to see them present reasonable arugements (I don’t agree) and attack your ideas instead of you…which I typically find the common route…
I fully agree with you…the Israel is THE best thing that happened to the Muslim world…not just as a scapegoat…but it has also led to a great deal of self-examination. I could right an article or two just on that one point.
Eupharates to the Med. Well, the Bible says a lot of stuff and often contradicts itself. Did you know that in the prophecies (I can NEVER spell that word)…I think Isiah though it could be Eziekiel (RK…Do you know the verses it is around chapter 40ish I think)…God speaks of “and I will make a great nation of Egypt and a road will be built from Egypt to Syria.” And Lebanon will be getting a bunch of contracts to finance and do all kinds of merchant stuff to help out and there will be peace etc etc.
It is in there…oh yes it is…but does not help the propogandists much so they ignore it. Just like I have read with my own little Jew eyes in the Quran about Mohamed talking about the Jews should be in/have “their land”. I assume at the time he was not referring to Beverly Hills?
Pick and chose to make your arugments…or try go through the pain, as Drima has, to look hard at the truth…and that is painful because it is incovenient, very very complex, lacks in slogans, doesn’t always make you feel good.
I respect you a whole lot Drima…when we gonna sit down and have a couple beers and watch some Sudanese porn together? I just found my copy of;
“Hot Sudan Nights”
Oh…I forgot, no beer
*yawn*
And yes Israel is a War-Monger, that uses the pretext of self defense to oppress and occupy others. It is this very mentality that will not allow peace a chance.
Yes. Quite. Would you like us to through all the wars that Israel was involved in and play Casus Belli and Name That Attacker? I know! Let’s start with 1947-8, and the Arab Liberation Army, and go from there.
Only I’m a bit tired of playing games.
“´Weapon of mass distraction” ???
heheheheeee
Howie,
I’m afraid I can’t quite find what you have in mind, but I admit that I don’t have the time to go through Yechezkel in detail at the moment.
I did find this, though:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/16125/jewish/Chapter-27.htm
The Lament of Tyre… a very interesting chapter, to say the least. It’s amazing how much so little text can say.
By the way, Drima, I just read through the “apes and pigs” that Eteraz wrote, and that you linked to here. Though little related, I can say that the Talmud (in the Sanhedrin tractate of the Nizikin section, page 109) discusses the story of the Tower of Babel, and says that a third of the builders of the tower (being those who brought the plan to bear) were turned into apes. That’s the closest actual Jewish story about anyone being turned into apes.
Amru,
You might wish to peruse this blog for some history of Arab Jews.
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/
RK…
I will look it up and post it
I thought you had all that stuff memorized by now…
Your “oppressed” in Gaza have a higher standard of living than Egyptians.
———
That is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read.
So Egyptians have their homes demolished, their civilians are getting bombarded by F-16 (cowards) they’re economy is choked off, they’re having illegal weapons used on them…yeah bite me “Andrew”..on a side note that’s a gay ass name, Andrew you’re a ho cake, it’s written between every line you write.
On a side note, it’s nice to fall back on the fact Israel really is hated around the world for what they inflict on a occupied population, and your passport is loathed wherever you go.
And as we look back on history this land has changed hands many many times, and now it’s held by european colonizers who happen to be Jewish. In the future it will change hands back, and the European colonizer who has no place in the middle east wil be sent packing back to Russia, Germany, Poland and all over eastern Europe…because as we all know history repeats itself, maybe not today, maybe not 50 or 500 years but history repeats. Remember that.
Handala-
When you have nothing to say…use namecalling…
Andrew…you’re gay man…
OK..Handala wins the discussion…
Free Palestine
Hey..
I can tell Handala is Italian…it is a nickname…goes like this
“We acall him ah Handala…cause he always ahandala his ownah ballzah”
Sorry…immature I know
Salam Amru, thanks for an honest and calm reply. I sincerely hope what follows will result in a fruitful talk. I’m not worried about it turning into a shouting match as time and time again, you’ve presented your ideas in a civil manner. I appreciate and respect that.
I believe you largely missed my point (while thankfully AK as shown in the first comment didn’t) and whatever the reason, I take responsibility because I could have probably done a better job at communicating my ideas.
“Unfortunately you are not very different from these people Dirma.”
You know where we come from calling a person a Jew is not a compliment and that’s what you did (which isn’t a good start) but it’s alright.
“Obviously in your blogging spirit Gaza does not deserve that much, maybe it even cluttered your wavelengths.”
Yes, it doesn’t get many posts because not everything revolves around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Arab media goes on and on about Palestine and so do many other blogs.
I’m not going to churn out 10 posts on the subject or one each and every single day. It’s a subject that already receives so much attention, other important issues sometimes hardly get noticed. So yes, in my blogging spirit. Gaza doesn’t deserve that much *attention*.
Congo is one of those perfect examples which should have gotten 10 times the attention Palestine always gets instead. 4 million. Dead.
“Nor the continuous and systematic oppression of Palestinians moves that much blood in your veins”
It does, and so does the suffering of Iraqis, Darfurians, our fellow Sudanese in the South and the general suffering of any human being throughout the world whether due to war, poverty or other issues. But you see Amru, the way it “moves that much blood in your viens” is different from that of mine. You seem to talk of anger, an urge to go to the defense of our oppressed brothers, you talk of a revolutionary anger.
Well, what has that done? 50 years and what has that positively achieved? I’ll tell you what… nothing much.
“Where in order to justify that Israel is not bad and that it is our leaders (who without a doubt are stinking bad), you make light of the plight of our fellow Palestinians by equating their plight to the evil doings of our leaders.”
You got this part completely wrong. You’re reading into the article things I didn’t even put there. Nowhere have I said that Israel is not bad. It *is*. Israel continues to engage in policies I staunchly oppose, the primary and main one being the expansion of settlements, because you simply can’t talk peace and continue to do that. It’s hypocritical. It’s no angel and neither is the United States for that matter but if we set some standards with which we can measure and compare the policies of the Israeli government to those of various Arab regimes, you’ll realize that in numerous cases, the both are as oppressive as each other but only in different ways.
Need I mention Saddam? Need I mention the systematic killings that occured in Darfur (and still do but to a much lesser extent now)? Do you even agree (or believe for that matter) that Darfurians went through hell in the last 4 years?
I have also never said anything or even implied equating the plight of Palestinians to the evil doings of our leaders so please stop putting words in my mouth.
I believe in their plight for a place they can call home and live in peacefully and I will never ridicule it. What I am vehemently against and extremely tired of is how the suffering of Palestinians is used by our leaders as a political tool for their own advantage - *Distraction*. THAT, Amru is what I am against and THAT is my main point in this post.
“Surely Israel can not be blamed for all our personal problems but its ‘creation’ has and continues to destabilize the region.”
And I agree with you but there is one thing you miss out. Our *reaction* to its creation has been far more problematic.
“But in no means does this render the plight of the Palestinians as invalid nor does it mean that we should not worry or support their cause.”
Again Amru, you’re putting words in my mouth. I am NOT invalidating the plight of Palestinians and I am NOT saying we shouldn’t support their right to a state they can live in peacefully and call home.
“It must allow ALL the refuges to return. It MUST withdraw to the 67 borders. It must end all forms of occupation and settlements”
I would love to see that happen Amru, honestly, I would love to see it happen but guess what? I’m a realist. I’m pragmatic. 67 borders? Could be possible. But the return of ALL refugees? You know that means bye bye to Jews being the majority within Israel, something which not surprisingly will be rejected. Again, I’m a realist.
“The Pharaoh was once the most powerful man in the world, today his kingdom is covered by dirt and dust ;)”
That line alone gave out the Big Clue. Your approach is that of a long, long-term struggle that will eventually bring Israel to its knees no matter how powerful it is. You have that hope and belief within you. This is precisely why you and I differ considerably. It doesn’t have to be like that.
Sadat (with support and blessings from Al-Azhar before it got corrupted by the Wahhabis) negotiated peace with Israel and brought it. So did the King of Jordan. The result is that nobody in those countries has to die and continue a bloody war that waged for 50 years without any benefits to us. You want 100 more? Be my guest, but again, it doesn’t have to be like that.
Muslim politics don’t start and end with Israel, Israel and more Israel. Moreover there are a few things which were indicated to me implicitly from your reply so I’d like to mention two points.
1) The Palestinians are not blameless. You treat them as such. Historically, I believe the current situation is primarily Israel’s fault. We can sit down and talk all day about how Israel did this and that but so what? What does that do? Look at *now*. The current reality isn’t one that was solely shaped by Israel. The Palestinians are also victims of their own crappy leadership (and very increasingly so).
2) Like I said before, Israel practices policies that I oppose but let’s bring up Hamas for a second. Don’t you think THEY also are a huge obstacle to peace. Have you even read their charter? Fatah is secular and extremely corrupt. The problem with Hamas is the religious twist it puts into things. They *don’t* believe in peace with Israel. Theirs is an Islamist vision, that whatever Muslim lands were lost must be returned.
It’s the same concept al-Qaeda brings up when they mention that Spain (al-Andilus) must be reconquered again. So you talk of 67 borders and the right of return (which is fine) but never seem to bother to even have a look at Hamas and what it truly *envisions*.
***********************************************
The following statement you made (after you mentioned the conditions for peace with Israel) needs to be highlighted.
“Then and only then, will there be peace in the middle east and the region as a whole.”
So let me get this straight, if Israel stops messing around and behaves itself, then there will finally be peace in the Middle East and region as a whole. Right?
Erm… okay Amru. Sure thing. You do realize you just implicitly rested our predicaments and hopes for the future as a people and as a region, primarily on the shoulders of Israel.
It’s that specific mindset that I disagree with.
Not everything has to revolve around the plight of Palestine as our leaders make it seem.
I will *not* rest my own fate, our fate, the fate of a whole people, on the shoulders of our notorious nemesis. That, to me, is the definition of victimhood. I reject it.
**************************************************
Anyways Amru, I hope the above clarifies my points.
I only have one kind request - not to put words I never said or even implied into my mouth.
Agree to disagree or whatever, I hope the above sheds light on things that have been misunderstood. Again, I thank you for an honest and civil reply.
Salam.
Dear Amal, salam. Please have a look at my reply to Amru as I believe it will clarify things. Also look at AK’s first comment because he got my point.
“I am sorry Drima, but what the hell! What has Israel or Arabs have to do with Sudan!
The problems of the Sudanese are purely Sudanese.”
Precisely Amal and even when Israel meddles in our affairs, the problems still can’t be blamed on them. I’m don’t know about you but you have no idea how many Sudanese I meet (many of them grown men, older than me and well educated) who downplay Darfur to such a large, large extent, it’s just completely unacceptable. It’s as if a few people died from hunger and disease and that’s all there is to it. Best of all, is the usual lovely conclusion. Deel al yahood. Oh the Joooz are trying to make us look bad and are exaggerating the issue.
Anyways, like I told Amru, I don’t blame you. I take responsibility if you misunderstood but with my previous long explanation, I hope you get it now.
Wanted to share my response to Mona’s article:
Howie said:
Well…let me start with one of my basic rants:
1. Muslims killed by Israelis over the past, say, 30 years…maybe, maybe 10,000 (mostly combantants)
2. Israelis killed by Muslims (mostly purposely targeted non-combants)…about 2,000…
3. Iranians killed by Iraqis…about 500,000
4. Iraqis killed by Iranians…about 500,000
5. Darfurians killed by Arab Sudanese…about 200,000
6. Algerians killed by there own people…don’t know…but more than any Jew every killed
7. Muslims repressed, killed and tormented by the Russia…countless (and who in the Muslim world), including Egypt…was and many still are (Iran) licking/licked the boots of these Russians
8. China utterly repressing Muslim expression in the western territories…and who is kissing their asses…Sudan for starters?
9. Serbs killed, raped and tortured Muslims by the truckload…
10. Lebanese slaughter Lebanese and Iran and Syria help
11. Saddam killed more Muslims, especially Kurds and Shia than Israel has in her whole history
12. Saddam about destroy Kuwait
13. Yemens slaughtered Yemens
14. Gazans illegally enter Egypt and cause havoc
15. Muslims attack innocent tourists in the Sinai
16. Should I keep going?
And Israel is THE enemy of the Muslim world…
I like Mona’s piece overall…but stop with the collective punishment joke. Lobbing rockets randomly into neighborhoods and blowing yourself up in busses and malls is not collective punishment?
Mona…name me a reasonable Palestinian leader…name me 5 Palestinian peace activists that have a following AND are not dead…
Geez…I have a headache
Howie says,
“When you have nothing to say…use namecalling…
Andrew…you’re gay man…”
-First it was a little better written than your no talent ass gave me credit for, I believe the word was ho-cake…..ho cake Howie…ho cake. Secondly, nobody here is changing any other persons opinion on the subject, so I’d much rather insult a zionist than waste my time with zionist propaganda.
Also I have to get this off my chest Falafal is not Israeli food, quit claiming that shit as Jewish…..That’s all I ask for, at least give us the Falafal, you stole the land leave the culture.
I can tell Howie is a fool why don’t you try google….Handala.
Handala,
“Turning his back on outside solutions”
Handala-
I love you man…
Let’s go out for falafel together…
I know a great Isareli place…
That invented it
Come on, guys… falafel ? Do you have to resort to food-slinging ? Falafel in my country is made by ME Arabic-speakers, and it’s delicious. Jewish or Arab ? who cares ? it’s food, for Chrissake (pun intended)
Halalhippie-
I would enjoy food slinging…especially all those dishes that were invented by Jews;
humos
falafel
kibbe
tehini
babaganush
baklawa
bevenjan mukli
bas busa
spagetti
Chinese food
tacos
Coca Cola
Water
Oranges
Well Howie considering that Jews invented and control absolutely everything else in the world, I think that you are correct that they also created the above mentioned foods
Good Drima, i love it, keep it up, you finally made.
don’t be scared of anyone, don’t let anyone stop by threatening u (e.g. Shooting u and your family)
we Arab and Sudanese to rethink, because sudanesethinker finally is trying to make us think
I renounce all claims to Falafel. I can’t stand that shyte.
I renounce all claims to falafel. I can’t stand that shyte. It gives me gas.
‘weapons of mass distraction’ very well put.
Taa’miya kicks falafel ass every day of the week.
Wow !! What a discussion thread. Love it.. One thing though should be clarified about Gaza. GAZA is not occupied anymore. It is a Jewish/Israeli free entity. So why are the Gazans and the international community and for that matter the whole f..ing Arab world insisting on Israel to keep a lifeline to Gaza? Why whould Israel continue to supply food and other things to an entity that has a declared objective to wipe it out of the map?? Come on guys, give me some ideas…
battal: “Gaza is not occupied anymore”
http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intSiteSN=119
Click on the ‘legal status of Gaza’ report
Ana,
Whatever you say, the reality is different. As per the UN definition of Occupation, GAZA IS NOT UNDER OCCUPATION.
“occupation” in the Hague convention of 1907.:
Art. 42. Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
…
Art. 53. An army of occupation can only take possession of cash, funds, and realizable securities which are strictly the property of the State, depots of arms, means of transport, stores and supplies, and, generally, all movable property belonging to the State which may be used for military operations.
All appliances, whether on land, at sea, or in the air, adapted for the transmission of news, or for the transport of persons or things, exclusive of cases governed by naval law, depots of arms, and, generally, all kinds of munitions of war, may be seized, even if they belong to private individuals, but must be restored and compensation fixed when peace is made.
….
Art. 55. The occupying State shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct.
The Israeli Army IS NOT OCCUPYING GAZA. Put this in your little head. Time to move on.
“The Israeli Army IS NOT OCCUPYING GAZA. Put this in your little head. Time to move on.”
Those laws are not usually applied to Israel. Instead new laws are made up on the spot.
I believe the “official” UN position is indeed that Gaza is still “occupied”. It doesn’t matter that international law sees it differently, because international law unchanged applies only to other countries, not Israel.
Anna, an interesting article, though it has no legal standing whatsoever - having been written by an NGO (and I’m a bit tired of Israeli NGO’s being funded by European ministries - this just destroys their credibility as NGO’s by making them a de-facto extension of foreign political aims).
Taxation and entry veto are pretty moot, having been fully agreed upon by the Palestinian Authority (which happens to claim to be the Palestinian state sovereign) on the one hand, and not being applicable to Gaza (it has this separate government thing now, operating independently of any agreement the PA has previously made with Israel) on the other. We can argue on the fairness of such agreements, or we could look at reality at hand.
The article carefully tries to combine two separate issues, mainly claiming that Israel is occupying Gaza because it is not supplying its basic humanitarian requirements through Israeli border passes, and claiming yet further that it is undermining Gaza’s attempts to find investors for a sea or airport because Israel is not willing to give assurances that it will not enter Gaza’s sea or air-space (assurances that no self-respecting government can give in pretty heated armed conflict).
This is a very nice argument for a fully peaceful situation, not when there is a state of war.
Battal,
Art. 42. Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
don’t really understand how that’s supposed to be a counterargument since Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and waters. It doesn’t have to be a physical land presence. The fact that the hague convention is donkeys years old and doesn’t make allowance for air surveillance isn’t really a valid argument. You need to look at how that law is being interpreted *recently*. From general reading up about this, the clause you have cited has been interpreted in ways that make a case for “occupation”. The cases that have been cited are the Tsemel case which involved the occupation of southern lebanon in 83. The Israeli supreme court sort of re-defined “occupation” as they stated that forces do not need to be in *full* control of territory or population but just to have the potential capability of doing so. And it seems there have been similar rulings in other courts. I can get you names if you’re interested.
Roman, I didn’t say it was a legal document, although it does make the case for occupation. As for the funding, I’m sure if God was funding it you’d still have some cynical take on it ;). I don’t know the foreign policy of Norway or Holland but I don’t presume it to be hostile towards Is.
Why is there a war though, Roman? Maybe if Gaza was left to be truly independent there wouldn’t be a war. Maybe it would be a good idea to try that and see what happens. (I’m nicking the *asterisk* thing, btw :P)
Anna, an NGO that is funded by any national body as its main (and maybe even only) source of finances is no longer an impartial non-governmental organization. In fact, it breaks the very boundries of what constitutes an NGO and goes dangerously close to the definition of government agency. The hostility or non-hostility of Norway or the Netherlands are irrelevant - what is relevant is that the NGO can’t be an extension of a country’s foreign policy.
But yes, I am a cynic of great proportions. It’s just that in this neck of the woods, cynicism is too often right.
As for war, we could go into the “if there was no war, there would be independence - if there was independence, there would be no war” circular argument, but essentially I have yet to see Gazan Palestinians trying to prove your side of the argument. Instead, Hamas rose to power, and the warfare took a noticable upswing. And both you and I know that Hamas has little interest in an actual end to hostilities before their goals are met (though they have no problem with temporary truces, one must rest in between acts of liberation on Muslim land).
As for the asterisks, nick away.
“You need to look at how that law is being interpreted *recently*.”
That’s ridiculous as those laws are always “interpreted” differently when Israel is concerned.
We have to look at how that law was being interpreted in OTHER CASES. Otherwise it’s not a law at all.
“Maybe if Gaza was left to be truly independent there wouldn’t be a war.”
That’s ridiculous. Lebanon is certainly truly independent of Israel and they started a war. The people in Gaza voted for war. Do you think Hamas would ignore popular sentiments just because they are “independent”? What makes you think that Hamas and the Gazans are more peaceful than Hizbullah and the Lebanese?
Well if you’re going to get stuck on the it’s not valid report because they are not a real NGO, then you have to say how this has affected the assessment of facts, so as to make it invalid. Foreign policy is key actually, how would you like it if Iran’s foreign office was contributing to that report. I don’t know anything about NGO classification to take this further.
No, I didn’t suggest a ciruclar argument. The argument was, if you give people freedom, then they might stop shooting- simple stupid, no circles. Sit down with the pals, and come to an agreement that you give them total autonomy and in return they cease fire. Since you’re already “at war”, it won’t make much difference if the deal doesn’t work, but if it does….. there you go, Israel-Palestine peace in 1 easy step.
Andrew, I just gave you an example of how Israel interpreted that law. Hamas’ line is that they are reacting to the “occupation”. I don’t think it’s a ridiculous suggestion.
Anna, it is not the existence of a reaction insomuch as it is the form the reaction takes. There is resisting occupation, and then there is brainwashing people and sending them to blow themselves up in markets and buses, and shooting up passing cars on a road, or just shooting or stabbing or killing the first civilian Israeli encountered.
And we had freedom and open borders and the rest around here once, Anna. Freedom of movement between borders then became freedom of moving people wearing explosives - car and truck travel for import/export became freedom to move bomb-cars and smuggle guns and explosives. So yes, Israel has a great deal to lose if it signs a ceasefire or an agreement that utterly lacks any certainty of being honored. It might just repeat the history that brought the roadblocks and border restrictions in the first place.
Who said anything about open borders? Roman go into politics, it’s you life’s calling.
Anna - read the report, please. The report that you yourself have linked to claims that Israel must open its borders for passage of Palestinians - both for trade and travel purposes, be it between Gaza and the West Bank or abroad. Anything else, the authors claim, would be an Israeli limitation on Palestinian basic rights and sovereignity, and that as Israel must avoid that limitation it must build the Palestinians some air and sea ports, and give them anything they desire as alternatives until these are built.
As for the definition of an NGO - an NGO must be free of any governmental political control, be it through funds or through the membership of government officials among the NGO administration. Many NGO do indeed receive governmental funding, but under strict rules. Getting the grant from a government’s Ministry of Health is not the same as getting paid by the Foreign Office - and implies that the organization follows a policy dictated by a foreign government.
I should have been clearer. Who said anything about border control, re: relinquinshing control over gaza? is what I should have said. I was not referring to the report in anyway in my second point.
The NGO thing, Yes I take your point that funding can influence the content of a report, but you haven’t pointed out *if* indeed that has taken place here. Ministry of health funding is acceptable- you’re trying to tell me a country can’t work out its foreign policy through that way too? You can discredit any source if you try hard enough. I doubt very much that any source of funding will be fully acceptable to all parties for such a report. Funding sources not linked to the government are not strictly kosher, they can have their own agendas too- politics seeps into everything.
wow, anything can be argued about in this topic.
Anything can be argued about anything at all - the difference is merely in the likeliness of the event and the reasoning of the argument.
Any source of funds *can* be not-kosher (with a varying degree of “can”), but getting your funds from an office whose sole purpose is to manage the country’s influences on other countries abroad - that sort of thing immediately raises an alarm in my head. That a government office in charge of making the wishes of the state known and done abroad is funding an NGO abroad makes that NGO questionable in my eyes.
As for border access - it’s one of those oft repeated arguments of how Israel is crushing Gaza - occupation by distance or somesuch. Freedom of travel through Israel has been one of the big demands in this issue - be it by the Palestinians or anyone abroad who happens to have governmental authority and the belief that they know better about how to solve our issues. Thus, it is quite reasonable to assume that the agreement you speak of will be signed only should Israel accede to this demand, and such an agreement is one that Israel has every agreement to mistrust - both due to previous experience and the path Hamas has chosen for itself.
well this is an Israeli NGO and I don’t think anyone who has bothered to make aliyah will seek countries who are anti the state of Israel, but anyway….
The alternative of existing in a constant state of war is better? I mean the situation is way better today as a result of the partial pull out*, or whatever it’s called. Pulling out of Gaza proper and then sealing the border, is in my opinion worth a try.
“The alternative of existing in a constant state of war is better?”
Yes.
It is better than being murdered, yes.
“Pulling out of Gaza proper and then sealing the border, is in my opinion worth a try.”
??? Have you been following the news? Israel has done exactly that.
It was worth a try.
Unfortunately it hasn’t been perfect for Israel and even worse for the Arabs living in Gaza.
“??? Have you been following the news?”
???Have you been following this reply thread?
“Have you been following this reply thread?”
I have. Nevertheless it is not clear to me why you would want Israel to pull out of Gaza and seal the border when Israel has already done exactly that.
Well, according to my understanding, legally speaking Gaza is still occupied as per past interpretations of the Hague convention. If you are claiming that Gaza is completely independent then, Is. doesn’t have the legal right to be controlling its airport, airspace and territorial seas and its application of all the other restrictions on Gazans. Even if you can cleverly argue that what ISrael is doing is legally right- legal right doesn’t equal moral right.
“according to my understanding, legally speaking Gaza is still occupied as per past interpretations of the Hague convention.”
If by “past interpretations” you mean “as applied to Israel”, then yes, you are right.
But I am not talking “interpretation” but “words of the law”.
Israel is NOT occupying Gaza. “Interpretations” of laws I do not care about, as they are often used as tools to change laws as they apply to Israel.
“If you are claiming that Gaza is completely independent then, Is.”
It is, yes.
“doesn’t have the legal right to be controlling its airport, airspace and territorial seas and its application of all the other restrictions on Gazans.”
That’s part of being in a war with someone. I consider that a blockade, not an occupation.
Occupation would be the presence of enemy soldiers controlling your territory, not the presence of enemy soldiers outside your territory.
Unless you want to argue that those Arab countries that refuse to accept Israel’s existence and whose borders are closed for Israelis are “occupying” Israel, you will have to concede that Israel is not occupying Gaza (in the same sense that Lebanon is not occupying Israel).
Before the peace treaty with Egypt, all of Israel’s neighbours had closed borders with Israel and were blocking Israel’s connections to the rest of the world.
If you want to call that “occupation” of Israel and want to argue that hence those Arab states had certain responsibilities towards Israel that apparently now Israel (but not Egypt?) has towards Gaza, we can discuss the definitions again.
Until then a blockade is not occupation, not even when Israel is doing it.
“Even if you can cleverly argue that what ISrael is doing is legally right- legal right doesn’t equal moral right.”
I disagree. It is absolutely morally right to maintain a blockade against an enemy who wants to destroy you.
In fact that is what all those pacifists tell me should have been done with Iraq. How can it be right when the world is doing it to Iraq but wrong when Israel is doing it to Gaza?
Gaza voted for war and a blockade is part of a war. If they don’t want the blockade it is up to them to change their mind about the war.
I am sure Israel will comply.
But leaving the law aside, I till don’t see how a further pull-out would improve things. Israel has left southern Lebanon and does not block Lebanon’s airports and seaports. But Lebanon still attacked Israel. So how can you think that the same strategy would work in Gaza? Are the Gazans more reasonable than the Lebanese?
Andrew, I get this funny feeling that you will disagree with everything I say. Let’s agree to disagree. Peace.
“Andrew, I get this funny feeling that you will disagree with everything I say.”
Uhm, dah.
“Let’s agree to disagree. Peace.”
The way I see it there are three possible positions:
1. If Israel does it, it’s occupation, when the Arabs do it it’s not.
2. A blockade is not occupation.
3. If the Arabs do it, it’s occupation, when Israel does it, it’s not.
I am squarely in the middle and find that compromise is peace. I believe neither in the extremist anti-Israel position (1) nor the extremist Zionist position (2).
“nor the extremist Zionist position (2).”
Make that (3). The extremist Zionist position is that Arabs are the occupiers.
Look, I talked with Hamas and they’re coming round to the idea
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=954709&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1
Anna, please read the fine print. We’ve already tried this “truce” charade before, and all it leads to is a more powerful Hamas, rearmed and basking in the “glory” of “beating the Zionists”.
Once that period ends, the war begins anew. I do not see Hamas letting go of their stated goal of “liberating the Muslim land of Palestine”. All I see is a hudna, and we know far too well what “hudna” means around here.
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