I regularly come across too many Sudanese and Muslims who aren’t comfortable talking about sex. To them I say, chill out and stop being so uptight. I can imagine them cursing me inside their heads right now. “How dare this idiotic retard put the ’s’ word near that other holy word!”
Ever heard of “The Perfumed Garden“, the erotic book written in the 16th century by the Muslim scholar, Muhammad al-Nafzawi?
LEARN, O Vizir (God’s blessing be upon you), that there are different sorts of men and women; that amongst these are those who are worthy of praise and those who deserve reproach.
When a meritorious man finds himself near to women, his member grows, gets strong, vigorous and hard; he is not quick to discharge, and after the trembling caused by the emission of the sperm, he is soon stiff again.
Such a man is liked and appreciated by women; this is because the woman loves the man only for the sake of coition. His member should, therefore, be of ample dimensions and length. Such a man ought to be broad in the chest, and heavy in the crupper; he should know how to regulate his emission, and be ready as to erection; his member should reach to the end of the canal of the female, and completely fill the same in all its parts. Such an one will be well beloved by women
Okay! Ehm, ehm… so you get the idea. Clearly, al-Nafzawi had significant experience and an active imagination. Good for him.
Such open frankness is quite difficult to find nowadays in our communities and I’m pretty sure some readers might find it shocking. I know I was shocked when I first read al-Nafzawi’s book.
Remember Egypt’s ‘Dr. Ruth‘? She deserves all the support she can get:
CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) — Dr. Heba Kotb is tackling a taboo in the Arab world unlike anyone else: She’s talking about sex openly on a show broadcast all over the Middle East.
… It took the 39-year-old mother three years of negotiations to get her show on the air. And a main reason she succeeded is that she talks only about sex allowed in the Quran — sex between husband and wife.
But even with that guideline, it’s no easy sell.
Oh my, how shocking!
In fact, Kotb has critics on all sides. Those more liberal think she’s not being open enough about sex, ignoring topics like extra marital affairs, homosexuality and pregnancy out of wedlock. Meanwhile, conservatives think sex is not for public discussion.
Hell, a few loony ignorant conservatives even believe sex should not be for enjoyment but strictly for procreation. During Turabi’s time in power, there were also many attempts (some of which were successful) to ban traditional Sudanese poetry that included sexual descriptions. Don’t even get me started with countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. So, the question is, how did we go from “The Perfumed Garden” to this current reality? My answer is what I refer to as “cultural contamination“.
Erotic literature isn’t non-existent within the Islamic tradition. The guys at SunniPath, a traditionalist Islamic online resource, aren’t big fans of “The Perfumed Garden” but they have this to say:
The origins of Islamic erotic literature probably lie in early Abbasid Baghdad, where a fusion took place in educated circles between ancient Arab poetic traditions of amatory verse which described female beauty and the act of love with considerable frankness, and the translation of Indian texts.
… The genre is, when maintained within the fiqh boundaries, a legitimate branch of the Islamic sciences
… There are several works on the subject by Imam al-Suyuti, but apparently the most influential such text by an alim was the Ruju’ al-shaykh ila sibah fi’l-quwwa ala al-bah, by the great Shaykh al-Islam Kemal Pasha-zade, the leading scholar of the Ottoman state in the time of Selim I.
There is certainly a case for producing an advanced manual in English drawing on Islam’s rich legacy in this field.
WHAT?! Did they just make a proposal for an advanced sex manual in English to be produced? How perverted of them! Where’s the Taliban when you need it? Where are the religious policemen of Saudi Arabia? These SunniPath heretics must be dealt with.
But seriously though, I wonder how this sex manual will be written and what it will include given the wonderful disagreements that exist amongst Islamic scholars on various issues. For example, let’s have a look at some of these principles:
1. Sexual relations are for the pleasure of both the husband and the wife and for the procreation of children. Sexual intercourse is not limited to vaginal penetration but includes other forms of sexual caressing, such as kissing and fondling of various kinds.
Okay, so far so good.
… 5. There are ahadith that forbid anal intercourse and scholars generally agree that it is not permissible. However, in his tafsir (commentary) Tabaari (3d century A.H.) while forbidding sodomy, says that earlier authorities were divided on the question.
Aha! Now that last part definitely stands out. Why and how were they divided? (The topic of anal sex surely instigated a good debate in this previous post of mine). Alrighty, anyways, moving on… one more:
The question of the lawfulness of oral-genital contact is difficult because there are many opinions. For some, it is forbidden. For others, tolerated. For some it is lawful. Some consider it to be lawful as long as the couple use such contacts as foreplay and conclude their love-making with vaginal intercourse.
I believe that this is a matter to be decided by the husband and wife together after seeking the guidance of Allah, who alone knows best.
Awww, poor us. Too many opinions out there, many of them backed by lengthy arguments and others issued by hilariously dumb Freelance Fatwa Makers. Yeah, that’s what I call them. Freelance Fatwa Makers. We are living in “The Age of Freelance Fatwas“. (Remember, you heard it here at The Sudanese Thinker first).
It gives you headaches doesn’t it? Kinda like shopping for groceries in a new supermarket filled with hundreds of brands you don’t even know right? You see this is where marketing comes in. He who markets his fatwas best, wins!
You may be wondering, what my point is with all of this? Well, I’ll let Saudi ubergirl87 do the talking:
It saddens me to think that the majority of the people I meet feel the need to seek a sheik’s approval of every intimate detail of their lives. For some reason they do not trust themselves to make any kind of judgement, or they distrust their ability to research matters on their own and come to their own conclusions.
These shaikhs capitalize on every one’s vulnerability, and their “fatwas” are sometimes nothing more than opinions that have no basis in Islam. And if you tell anybody this they will think you are “some sort of atheist.”
Yes, and in addition to that Muslims need to realize that the bulk of Islamic law hammered into our heads growing up is the non-homogeneous interpretations and opinions of many, many men who (besides being great marketers) are essentially no different from you and me. Now, I’m not saying that you should completely discard our 1400 year old tradition and simply throw it out of the window. No, all I’m saying is that it’s not holy, you shouldn’t treat it as such and you should never swallow it blindly.
Sex is natural and if you rewind back far enough, you’ll realize that there was significant room made for its open discussion within the Islamic tradition. Try Muhammad Ibn al-’Arabi and of course the one and only Rumi - soulful, beautiful and even spiritual but most certainly not mechanical.
If anyone asks you
how the perfect satisfaction
of all our sexual wanting
will look, lift your face
and say,Like this.
When someone mentions the gracefulness
of the nightsky, climb up on the roof
and dance and say,Like this.
If anyone wants to know what “spirit” is,
or what “God’s fragrance” means,
lean your head toward him or her.
Keep your face there close.Like this.
When someone quotes the old poetic image
about clouds gradually uncovering the moon,
slowly loosen knot by knot the strings
of your robe.Like this.
- Rumi
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The “Islamic” “Republic” of Iran has a very forward-looking attitude towards sexuality.
“Iran’s new Islamic-guided government has established a system of legalized prostitution, through the practice of “sigheh” or “temporary marriages,” by which a mullah arranges a “legal union” between a man and a girl (some as young as nine years old) for a fee. The so-called marriage can last anywhere from one hour to 99 years.”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467739732&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
While prostitution is also legal in many European countries, most of those are not yet degraded enough into complete paganism for the business to be called “blessed” or officially supported by the “religious” establishment. In fact the churches protest.
For example, in Germany prostitution is legal and organised and taxed. And the majority of Germans support the legality. However, the same majority would reject any attempt to mix it with religion and would find it offensive if such a proposal was made. Such is the power and influence of Christianity that people still think that prostitution is wrong on at least some level.
Iran, OTOH, is a lot more modern in that respect and has long since abolished the strict code of morality that has governed backwards monotheistic Judaeo-Christian-Islamic countries like Germany and Israel and Turkey to name but a few.
Times move too fast for me, they really do.
Oh snap…
@Andrew
I just wanted to make sure that people read these two contradictions in your comment. You should probably clarify what it is you’re trying to say.
“a mullah arranges a “legal union” between a man and a girl (some as young as nine years old) for a fee.”
then
“Iran, OTOH, is a lot more modern in that respect and has long since abolished the strict code of morality”
So a strict code of morality means 9 year olds don’t get sold as sexual slaves to soldiers? Good! And screw your theory of Iran being modern in any respect when it comes to morality.
@Aaron
There is no contradiction. I believe there is a strict code of morality in certain countries, like Germany and Israel, which says that
a) prostitution may be legal but should not be promoted by the religious elite
and
b) using nine year old girls as sex slaves is wrong.
I also believe that the same strict code of morality was once in place in imperial Iran.
But Iran now, is more modern in that respect and has abolished the strict code of morality referred to above, hence they have not only legalised prostitution but blessed it and they apparently reject the outdated moral code of not having sex with nine year old children.
You and I might find that the Iranian system offensive, but since it replaced the traditional system employed ever since Judaism, Christianity and Islam replaced the pagan religions of old, it is certainly “modern”.
“So a strict code of morality means 9 year olds don’t get sold as sexual slaves to soldiers? Good!”
Yes. I certainly would call that a stricter code of morality than what is being practised in Iran at the moment.
“And screw your theory of Iran being modern in any respect when it comes to morality.”
Modernity doesn’t have a moral value. It just means today’s rather than yesterday’s system. While the mullahs might claim to have revived Islamic tradition, what they really did was revive pagan traditions that haven’t been practised in Iran since Zoroastrianism took hold. So their _new_ code is _modern_, while the previous code is the traditional code. Modern Iran certainly has a less strict code of morality than Iran before 1979.
Unfortunately.
Another place that talks about sex openly is Alf laylah wa-laylah. “The story of the porter and the three ladies” in particular comes quickly to mind. At least in Husain Haddawy’s translation.
Drima, don’t many muslim scholars consider Sufis as not really muslim? But at the same time to outsiders they would still brag about one of their own great Poets, Rumi? This is the impression I had from reading about Rumi.
“Modernity doesn’t have a moral value”
I’m starting to remember you from the Gaza post.
Statements like this are why I hate trying to talk with people on the internet. If there is no inherent value or meaning in the movement then how are things ever progressing or moving forward or being modernized? To measure progress you have to have a meter by which you are measuring things. If I adopted your point of view, which I am guessing is largely academic and to be antagonistic, I could say something like, “We waste too much time and money with the courts settling matters so from now on everyone gets a handgun and can shoot anyone they please.”
By your logic you can’t say that I’m wrong. And I call bullshit if you say otherwise.
ito:
About sufi’s, Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taimiyya wrote in depts about how some sufis are the most brilliant of muslims, how others were excellent in some areas but erred, and how some went outside what is good.
Read Magmoo3 al-Fatawa, volume 10 and 11 who deals with this subject.
Drima: You should not read some while discarding other. This is something everybody has to know. And you know what my reason for saying this is.
There is a difference between Men and men discussing these topics, and men and women discussing these topics. please efham ya khoya.
“We waste too much time and money with the courts settling matters so from now on everyone gets a handgun and can shoot anyone they please.”
“By your logic you can’t say that I’m wrong. And I call bullshit if you say otherwise.”
I disagree that handguns are a better solution that a traditional court system.
I also disagree that having sex with a nine year old girl with the blessing of a mullah is better than the traditional attitude towards prostitution.
Why is that bullshit?
Is it impossible to be against the Iranian system of prostitution AND against violent anarchy??? What’s wrong with supporting, say, liberal democracy as practices in my examples, Israel and Germany?
“If there is no inherent value or meaning in the movement then how are things ever progressing or moving forward or being modernized?”
You are assuming that “new” equals “good” and that “progress” is always “positive”. It isn’t. In many a case something good is replaced by something very bad.
I do not regard the developments in Iran since 1979 as good or positive, although I consider them “modern” compared to what was there before.
I do not believe that anarchy is better than a court system even though there are some (Libertarians) who seem to want to _progress_ towards such a system.
I do not believe that _progress_ is good per se. And I do not think that it is somehow “bullshit” not to accept all progress as inherently better than what it replaced. Sometimes progress can be very bad. In Iran it was very bad indeed.
Some might say the monarchy was outdated, but I say that that is not an argument against it. And some say that the “Islamic Republic” is the system of the future, and I say that that is not an argument for it.
“I’m starting to remember you from the Gaza post.”
Were you the guy who didn’t get sarcasm?
Here we go:
1. Religion is enormously confused about sex.
2. Celebacy is a diaster.
3. The people making the rules are:
a. Old people with shriveled genitals
B. Have forgotten how intense the sex urge is
C. Often had screwed their brains out and now
are “reformed”
D. Still are screwing their brains out and lie about it
E. Have a sex life…but tell you not to.
4. Any enormously powerful drive that has no appropirate form of expression ALWAYS gets expressed, but often symtomatically
5. What is the deal with virginity? OK…when peolpe got married at 13 or something fine. I got married at 31…no way I was gonna wait 18 years…not even the household pets would have been safe
6. Why is it that, at least with Judaism, Christianity and Islam…there is such a preoccupation with people’s sex lives?
7. I love smug people “got theirs” but tell you not to get yours. Like a person eating a nice meal in a resturant and telling the starving bum on the street to behave appropriately
8. No rabbi, minister or mullah has ANY right to be telling people how to act sexually…can they interpret, advise…yes…of course
9. I am not saying there should be no rules…I have worked with sex offenders and by golly we need rules and jails and all that, but consenual sex is primarily a personal choice matter.
10. What bothers religion so much about sexual behavior? And how many great religious figures demonstrated questionable sexual behavior: David, Solomon, Mohammed (married a child of 9, correct me if I am wrong), Judah…and those are just the heros of the literature..don’t get me started on Popes and such.
11. Are older religious people jealous and envious of youth? Man I will bet you that is part of their strictness.
I could go on
“Drima: You should not read some while discarding other. This is something everybody has to know. And you know what my reason for saying this is.
There is a difference between Men and men discussing these topics, and men and women discussing these topics. please efham ya khoya.”
Sounds kind of ominus…like Mordor or something?
Did I miss something?
This is what religions should be losing sleep over…not sex:
“Poor Haitians Resort to Eating Dirt
Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:57 PM EST
The Associated Press
By JONATHAN M. KATZ
PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (AP) — It was lunchtime in one of Haiti’s worst slums, and Charlene Dumas was eating mud. With food prices rising, Haiti’s poorest can’t afford even a daily plate of rice, and some take desperate measures to fill their bellies. Charlene, 16 with a 1-month-old son, has come to rely on a traditional Haitian remedy for hunger pangs: cookies made of dried yellow dirt from the country’s central plateau.”
Though I consider myself a religious person…this kind of thing makes me sick. Religion worries about young adults having sex or watching porno or something…looking at Penthouse…How often do we see rabbis, ministers and mullahs looking to feed these types. Embarassingly enough…I think it is the secular or the modestly religious that carry out many of the heart and soul tasks of religion…the rest are worried about how might be spanking the monkey.
I think that religious leaders of every denomination interpret for the majority what everyone should make their minds about by themselves. Saving lives is apparently not as important as saving souls. If you take care of your soul then you can eat dirt now but reap the rewards in paradise. (sarcasm implied) A bird in the hand though…
It could also be about keeping everyone so confused and occupied with other things so the real problems don’t get aired or solved. At least there are others to pick up the slack.
Ahmad, thanks for the info. It sounds though just like it would be with any group of people. Some great, some alright and others just plain not nice
It seems to me that just talking to men about sex if you are a man would perpetuate the same misconceptions over and over. Unless the guy’s educated in that subject from all possible sources. That’s why I am for open dialog on the matter between both genders. As if one was searching for knowledge. Constantly. Not just for confirmation and gratification of one’s ego. Eh, one day…:)
ito, yeah about Sufis, check what Ahmad said.
Salam ya Ahmad,
“There is a difference between Men and men discussing these topics”
I’m not sure I get you ya basha, men are different from Men because Men (prophets) had a different status? Like I said, I’m not saying discard the tradition, only not to accept it without at least some thinking. Too many of us worship the opinions of the clergy and follow it rather blindly.
Andrew and Aaron, let’s play nice please.
Howie, too many religionists are obsessed about sex and treat it as some kind of dangerous thing. As for sex after marriage, back then people got married at an *early* age. They didn’t need to wait for so long. Nothing wrong with waiting but I think it’s crazy if you have to wait too long. We should be making it easier for people to get married early, not postponing. Thing is, I don’t believe in casual sex.
More later. Gotta run for class.
Ahmad,
There is a difference between Men and men discussing these topics, and men and women discussing these topics.
What about “women and women”? Women discuss these topics far more than men do. Muslim women are no different, I’m sure. Women will tell their female friends and family things about their sex lives that no man would ever be comfortable discussing, regardless of who he is talking to.
Historically, the Islamic tradition was dominated by men, hence the rather many biased-interpretations in favor of them.
Interesting post. This guy lived after or before the Jaahiliya? I wonder if you guys have heard of the most pornographic of the Arab poets–a guy named Abu Nawas (not sure of the pronounciation anymore)
Anyways, my friends in the hela who went to schools whose medium of instruction was Arabic, often cited this Abu Nawas guy. He was supposedly from Baghdad or something. Here’s a rough translation of what they used to say were words penned by the famous poet:
Fuck and continue fucking
And don’t teach your penises laziness
For fucking is sweeter than Friday prayers
Reading this post reminds of the rich tradition of the Arabs, including sex. Who would have guessed!
What the… HEH?! The Abu Nawas dude said that? Very naughty!
“Andrew and Aaron, let’s play nice please.”
Is it OK if I return the “screw you”?
To him, of course, not to you, Drima.
Andrew I apologize. For the record I said your theory…. not you.
And when you contextualize it like that I can see more of where you’re coming from however we’ll have to agree to disagree on our definitions of progress. 
And yes I was the guy that missed the sarcasm.
Aaron, we are OK.
Now I have seen it all. That surely was the first time I have ever been understood as a supporter of (the current regime in) Iran.
You need a better sarcasm detector!
Awww, look at you two. How cute.
Geez guys…get a room already
ito:
Yes but you should know that this issue is not like what you have described. Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taimiyya (rahimahu Allah), is first of all the main source of theology of the Wahabi/Salafi movement along with Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab, and the Salafists are known as staunch opponents of the practice of Sufism. However, as Ibn Taimiyya praised certain elements of Tasawwuf and even the one who started the first Sufi Tariqa, Sheikh Abdelqadir al-Gilani (rahimahu Allah, one can tell that opposing sufism in itself was something that came around later.
Sufism is the arabic word Tasawwuf - which is the Islamic science on how you spiritually get closer to God in your worship, reaching Ihsan (Worshipping God as if you see him, and even though you dont see him, realizing that he indeed sees you). About this science the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Mufti Ali Gom’a (May Allah preserve him) said:
Tasawwuf is Islam and Islam is Tasawwuf.
Thus, besides the radical Salafists, the main issue about Sufism is not Tasawwuf in itself, rather it is the way Tasawwuf is realized. And this what Ibn Taimiyya wrote about:
Some - amongst them is Al-Gilani - realized Sufism in a good way, and these are among the most exellent of muslims, while others were upright yet erred, while some failed to realize Tasawwuf in the correct manner so badly that their practices, in the eyes of the Sheikh, were actually outside Islam.
And the main difference on this between Sunni traditionalists and Salafists is that Salafists accept no innovation (bid3a) in the religion whatsoever while the traditionalists affirm that there can be a good innovation (bid3a hasana). The most radical of the salafists thus denies the good of Tasawwuf in itself (Tasawwuf as a science did not exist in the time of the Prophet pbuh) and even the Mazaheb, the four sunni schools of law.
I hope you understand what i was trying to say.
Drima:
Wasalam ya ibn al 3am
What i meant was Men and Men discussing this together versus Men and Women discussing this together.
I hope you understand me despite my bad english.
Craig:
Yes this is the same, there is no difference between men and men together and women and women together.
Drima:
“Too many of us worship the opinions of the clergy and follow it rather blindly.”
About this, do you refer to the practise of Taqlid or just following blindly in common sense?
Howie:
i will not even bother to discuss this with a man who declared masturbation as his only hobby 
hehe you are crazy man
said in a friendly spirit so please do not be offended
“And the main difference on this between Sunni traditionalists and Salafists is that Salafists accept no innovation (bid3a) in the religion whatsoever while the traditionalists affirm that there can be a good innovation (bid3a hasana).”
The Salafists CLAIM that they accept no innovation, but they have introduced MANY innovations to Islam (and none of them were good or true to the Quran).
Maybe the Salafists accept no innovations by other scholars, but they certainly do accept innovations even if they contradict the Quran or common sense.
“hehe you are crazy man
i will not even bother to discuss this with a man who declared masturbation as his only hobby :D”
Where did I say that?
Never said that…
It is not true…
Maybe my FAVORITE hobby…but not the only hobby.
“Maybe my FAVORITE hobby…but not the only hobby.”
Indeed! That would be ridiculous.
Ahmad, it’s all good dear brother and son of the Nile.
What I meant was common sense in general, not Taqlid.
As for what Andrew said about Salafis. Right on. Personally I was raised as a Sunni Muslim but currently I’m not so big on this whole Mazhab, Sunni, Shia thing. I don’t associate myself under one umbrella anymore really. I am a fan of many Sufi teachings though although I do find some of them to go outside of what I believe to be Islamic bounds.
As for the hobby, definitely was a favorite when you make the “discovery” at about age 13.
“The Salafists CLAIM that they accept no innovation, but they have introduced MANY innovations to Islam (and none of them were good or true to the Quran).
Maybe the Salafists accept no innovations by other scholars, but they certainly do accept innovations even if they contradict the Quran or common sense”
- Well “common sense” is not a source for Islamic ruling according to traditional islamic scholarship. Thats first.
Second:
You can always twist things. The salafi’s do NOT accept any innovation that cannot be traced back to the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions (ra), but the matter they do that is to understand almost everything in its literal sense (like the attributes of God mentioned in the Quran), which in itself is an innovation in the religion according to traditional islamic scolars, because in our view the companions (ra) did not held these views.
Salafis is most dominant almost everywhere in Scandinavia, so when the youth here is teached in Islam, they get teached in Salafism. I am therefore active in the Orthodox-Salafi polemics, so i am very familiar with their beliefs.
And Howie, i’m sorry then, we can discuss it now
Ahmad, you seem more knowledgeable than I am with the different sects of Islam and the intricate details involved. I believe you’ll like this guy. He blogs mainly about Islam and Islamic reform.
eteraz.wordpress.com
I know of this blog, thank you.
By the way: What is the main mazhab followed among traditionalist (non-salafi) sudanese muslims? Almost all of the sudanese i’ve talked to about this is shafe3ia but i have also heard from travellers that the common mazhab is the Maliki.
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