My Search For Sudanese Jews
Posted on January 15, 2008
Filed Under Jews, Sudanese |
I spent a decent amount of time the past few months searching online for Sudanese Jews (and no in case you’re wondering, the guy in the picture is a Falasha). I thought writing a few collaborative posts on this blog would be a super cool thing to do and could potentially even count as a Guinness World Record of some sort. Yeah, imagine that, the first blog post in HISTORY co-authored by a Sudanese Muslim and a Sudanese Jew! 
Okay, seriously though, I simply wanted to get in touch with one or two of them in order to satisfy my curiosity. They’re a tiny, tiny fascinating group of people, to me at least. Besides being homies, they’re also the demonized enemy.
So, I searched and searched. I also asked around at SudanForum (the largest Sudanese discussion board on the internet) if there were any Sudanese Jews because I remember coming across a half Sudanese Jew, half Dutch chick there a long time ago before I started blogging. Boohoo. Couldn’t find her and so I kept walking.
I even contacted the author of the book “Jacob’s Children in the Land of the Mahdi: Jews of the Sudan” believing he might be a Sudanese Jew and I ended up with a reply from his son telling me he passed away quite recently. Sigh! So again I continued my search, and then one day, out of nowhere, a guy named Lirun stumbled upon this blog and commented on it.
Lirun is an Israeli. His grandmother who now resides in Israel is a Sudanese Jew which makes him only 25% Sudanese. Close but not satisfactory considering what I was looking for, which leaves me with a question. To give up or not to give up? Hmm…
Comments
94 Responses to “My Search For Sudanese Jews”
Don’t give up.
What defines a “Sudanese Jew”?
If it is about birthplace, time works against you, obviously.
What’s the definition of a Sudanese? Does Sudanese culture have something like “father Sudanese, son Sudanese” or some such law?
To support your cause, I will convert to Judaism.
Yes?
I don’t think he is looking for a Sudanese Jew, the person, but more for a Sudanese Jew, the guy with an interesting history.
hey, check facebook
i remember this kid who was a sudanese jew, cute thing
there is a sudanese jewish family i know of in sudan. 3 brothers - surname shaoul.
Hey Drima,
In the mid ’90s in Khartoum, I had just read a book titled “What price Israel?” I was about to complete high school, was very curious about Israel, Jews etc.
Anyways, a few days later I remember boarding a bus that went along Shariah Huria and going south. While on the bus, near a Catholic technical centre just off Sharia Huria, I saw a cemetry that was being dug up by developers. Part of the wall fence still stood and the gate, coloured green, was still erect. It is the typical iron sheet gate that one would normally find in Khartoum.
But lo and behold, when I looked at it closely, the Star of David was welded on to it. I never got to ask how it found its way there, but from that point I was convinced Khartoum had a Jewish community. I was told that most pretended to be Coptic Christians to escape persecution.
Dalu, won’t do.
Andrew,
“but more for a Sudanese Jew, the guy with an interesting history.”
Exactly! It would be better if it’s a girl though
Rara Avis, where? Facebook is gigantic!
xamaxzebi, I’m aware that there is a super tiny number of Jews still present in Sudan. The most well-known is Osama Dawood’s supposed right-hand man. The vast majority hide their identity and pretend to be Christian Copts though.
Asma Ana, yeah that’s the Jewish cemetery. I never even knew it existed. Found out about it after reading the Arabic translation of the book I mention above in this post.
“I was told that most pretended to be Coptic Christians to escape persecution.”
Yup, true. Many didn’t want to lose their businesses too.
From what I know, there are small Sudanese Jewish communities in Israel, Sweden and New York. They left Sudan after things started getting messy for them.
I have YET to meet any of them online. Boohoo!
Pardon my ignorance. But who is Osama Dawood?
Heey Drima! been ages, I know, I know! I wont even blame you if u ddnt remember me! As i was checking old blogs I used to know & Love I was glad to see urs still in action unlike so many others, and I was even alot happier to see the changes you made it.. I am Impressed! which is how I always feel when I read your stuff! Nywayz, I really need a couple of weeks to go through all the stuff I missed ( If not months, since i missed alot) but I promise you that I will comment and most probably will be posting on my blog soon Enshala!
Take care bro
Precious, glad to see you here again. It’s been ages and it would be super cool to see you back blogging again.
Andrew, Osama Dawood is a Sudanese tycoon, allegedly a billionaire, if not then most defintely a multi-millionaire. You can see him after the first minute of this video.
Check good looking sudanese walla something like that
but it was a while ago and u can inquire within
Cool, will defintely check.
Keep searching, man, you’re bound to hit jackpot sooner or later.
I think it is going to be a fruitless search. I don’t think there is even a single synagogue in Sudan that isn’t merely a piece of local history. You never know, though.
Will a half sudanese that dated a jew work?
The last Jewish community center building was sold off by the current government as it was a prime location in central Khartoum. You can also find the famous Jewish cemetery by the industrial area Khartoum even though now that specific location has been turned into a scrap and stolen parts market. Sudanese Jews need to return and claim their property and protect their history in Sudan.
Our high school secretary at Unity was a Sudanese Jew Mrs Dolly but she migrated to the USA sometime in early 90’s. One of my father’s good friends happens to be a Sudanese Jew, I remember my dad telling me stories of how the Jewish community thrived peacefully in Sudan until the Balfour deceleration and the creation of the oppressive state of Israel.
Sadly many Jews migrated, others embraced Islam or converted to Christianity and some chose to practice their faith in discretion becoming closet Jews.
But during a recent trip to Thailand I met up with a young Israeli who was very excited when he found out I was Sudanese because his grandparent from his father’s side were Sudanese who migrated first to Sweden and then his parents moved to Israel. He seemed to know a lot about Sudan from stories his grandmother told him. Maybe if peace is given a chance he will have a chance to return to the birth place of his grand parents.
All in all, I find it sad that the welcoming and tolerant Sudanese society has been transformed to the extent that another group of Sudanese as a whole had to migrate to a different country. In my own opinion if the oppressive state of Israel was not “created” these Jews would have still been living peacefully among their brethren as they have for centuries.
“I remember my dad telling me stories of how the Jewish community thrived peacefully in Sudan until the Balfour declaration and the creation of the oppressive state of Israel.”
Isn’t it funny how it is always the “oppressive state of Israel” that is responsible for the oppression of people living IN Arab states oppressed BY Arab governments and murdered by Arabs?
Let’s just put it this way: The Jewish community thrived peacefully under colonial rule until the rise of Arab nationalism.
There, much more local.
I find it hilarious, when Sudanese speak of the “oppressive state of Israel” when trying to figure out why Sudanese Jews left a country now best known for fighting a civil war against its Christian minority in the south and for murdering hundreds of thousands of Darfurians.
Newsflash: The “oppressive state of Israel” is the place where the Jews and Darfurians flee to when given the chance.
You need maybe to modify your usage of “oppressive”.
Many Arabs remember stories of Jews living with no problems in Arab countries. However, many Arab Jews remember stories of fear and death and hiding their religion from their fellow countrymen. Think about it, before you call other countries “oppressive”.
No Arab in Israel has to hide his ethnicity or religion. And Israel has never attacked anyone, within Israel or without before being attacked first.
But since you are Sudanese, I think, let’s talk about the refugee issue. How do you propose should the Jewish refugees from Sudan be compensated? A “right to return” is useless when the country you want to return to regularly commits genocide (which is why Arabs demand a “right to return” to Israel but Jews do not demand a “right to return” to Arab countries). How do you propose to compensate Jewish refugees and Darfurians?
Before you attack Israel better make sure that you haven’t committed the same crimes, on a much higher magnitude, against INNOCENT people (rather than an attacker), at an earlier time.
P.S.: Do you mind terribly if Israel gives the compensation money Sudan owes it to Arab refugees from Israel? It’s your chance to help “Palestinians”. Get Sudan to compensate Jewish refugees and Israel can use that money to compensate Arab refugees. Fair is fair.
P.P.S.: Although the Jews in Sudan have never attempted to throw the Arabs into to the sea. But they were Jews and that is just as bad, presumably. Otherwise, how could we even compare the two situations?
“In my own opinion if the oppressive state of Israel was not “created” these Jews would have still been living peacefully among their brethren as they have for centuries.”
Actually, had the oppressive state of Sudan not be created, they might. But that “living peacefully” is relative. Jews don’t often remember it like that.
I find it more likely that Jews would have lived in Arab countries just as peacefully as Christian minorities, the Darfurians, the Kurds, or any minority really. If you are a minority, you don’t need an “oppressive state” on your side to be murdered by Arabs.
Which “oppressive state” do you blame for the fate of the Kurds in Iraq or the Darfurians in Sudan? Israel? Why not?
And why would Jews have been the _only_ minority not to be slaughtered like Kurds or Darfurians?
No, my friend, the truth is the other way around: without Israel, the Jews of the middle east would have been treated just like the other minorities. And instead of a few thousand dead Arab terrorists and civilians they hide amongst (those brave fighters), we would have several hundred thousand dead Jews.
But at least there wouldn’t be an “oppressive state” of Israel, and hence there would be no problem, right?
Only dead Jews.
If Arabs had to fear Israel as much as Jews/Darfurians/etc. have to fear Sudan, they would NOT demand a right to return, would they?
Amru,
Do you realise that if the problem was the “oppressive state of Israel”, finding Sudanese Jews (in Israel) would be a lot easier than it is?
Amru, it’s always easy blaming some faraway country or event for what your own governments and people have done and still do. Oh yes! The Evil Israel *made* Sudanese Jews feel persecuted and unwelcome. Tell me, Amru, was it merely a “natural reaction” that Jews throughout the Middle-East were treated in this manner, or was it a conspiracy by the Evil Zionists to encourage people to immigrate? Which totally absolving option is it, eh? And how long will idiots keep weaving tapestries of blame and pride, creating lies to justify hatred and hatred that creates more lies, and so on and so forth until everything is so… simpl, to the point where you have all the answers and don’t need to think about anything anymore.
And most importantly, it’s always someone else’s fault.
Roman,
Don’t forget that it was not only Jews who were/are treated that way. Jews are just the most universally existing and prominent minority.
The old “if Israel hadn’t been created Jews would still live in peace with Arabs” lie is an insult not only to Jews but to all minorities that are suffering under Arab rule.
Arab hatred for minorities (and it definitely does exist) is not caused by Israel and is not only for Jews.
(There was no anti-Semitism in Germany before the Balfour declaration either. Except it’s true, Jews in Germany really did live without fear.)
It wasn’t the Balfour declaration that caused a rise of neo-nationalism and violence against minorities world-wide. It was the rise of nationalism and the violence against minorities that caused a need for a state of at least one of those minorities.
The only mistake made was that they didn’t also create a state for Kurds and states for the other minorities in the region.
Moving populations around a bit is not as bad a crime as murdering them in cold blood.
But for some reason a few Arab refugees are considered “victims” by Arabs while hundreds of thousands of murdered Jews/Kurds/Darfurians etc. and millions of non-Arab refugees are, if anything, just a mere symptom of Israel’s existence.
Give me a break.
Is it coincidence that Arab AND European states started persecuting Jews in earnest in the 1920s and 1930s? Is it a coincidence that Arab AND European states also persecuted homosexuals, Gypsies, any minority at the same time?
Do you think the average German or Sudanese even knew about the Balfour declaration?
How many Sudanese today know ANYTHING at all about Israel? They are not even allowed to travel there, for goodness’ sake.
Amru,
Have you never wondered what the Sudanese government is trying to hide from you when they don’t allow you to visit Israel?
The Darfurian refugees found out.
*simpl = simple
And yes, Andrew, the Jews were never special in terms of Middle-Eastern persecution. The rise of nationalism also saw the rise of hatred to anyone who did not “fit in” to the nationalist definitions, be it the Copts under Nasser, the Kurds under Saddam, and Jews just about everywhere.
The difference? With the Jews, there was an “excuse”. Like I said in a previous post, it’s an incredibly self-demeaning argument, as if some people are animals that operate by pure instinct, and *must* do this or that.
Yes.
I just think it cannot be pointed out often enough, because
a) it makes the lie about Israel being the reason for persecution of Jews a more obvious lie.
b) we owe those other minorities that we at least not forget their history completely.
dont worry about lirun … he is as a sudanese jew as a sudanese jew can be … to the point that once, when he really got on my nerves, i was considering in serious sending him back to khartoom
God! everyone seems to be v.fascinated by this, you can write a whole book based on just 2 of these comments!
For those of you who claim the Jews fled Sudan for fear of prosecution, dont present your assumptions as facts.
Firstly, the Jewish Sudanese were not even a considerable minority like the flasha in Ethiopia, they could still be living in Sudan and no one will take notice.
Secondly, there are a handful of books on the topic and they do not suggest the group was harrassed or prosecuted at any moment in time.
Thirdly, as intolerable as Arabs are, they were not the ones that committed massive genocide on the jews using ubelievable methods such as gas chambers, concentration camps and forcing them to wear special clothing so they can be easily identified and targeted.
Arabs did not create a special country for them, forced them to leave their European countries that their ancestors occupied for hundred of years because they could not share the same space with them anymore.
Forthly, frankly I dont see a reason why a Jew given the opportunity to leave a country that is unbelievably underdeveloped to go to an advanced country would choose to remain in Sudan.
10 million Sudanese are currently living outside Sudan as refugees. Most of these are not escaping prosecution and most of them are actually north Sudanese.
These people left Sudan to give their childeren better opportunities and be in a better position to take care of their families.
Lastly, before the late 1980s Sudan was not a country that was troubled by religious issues.
It is only after the introduction of Sharia Law in 1985 and the current fundamentalist regime took power in 1989 that a religious element entered the equation and the war rehotoric took a religious turn. Many of Sudan’s Jews left long before such change took place.
“Thirdly, as intolerable as Arabs are, they were not the ones that committed massive genocide on the jews using ubelievable methods such as gas chambers, concentration camps and forcing them to wear special clothing so they can be easily identified and targeted.”
No. But the Sudanese government does commit massive genocide against the people of the Darfur region and the government of Iraq did use poison gas against Kurdish villages. That is hardly better!
As for the special clothing, I believe traditionally there were such laws in the Arab world.
“Arabs did not create a special country for them, forced them to leave their European countries that their ancestors occupied for hundred of years because they could not share the same space with them anymore.”
The Germans did not “create a special country” for them either. Plus Jews live in Germany today and are full citizens and can vote, that’s hardly a statement that is true for most Arab countries where Jews once lived.
But, incidentally, the Arabs _did_ force Jews to leave their home countries where they had lived for hundreds or thousands of years. Saudi Arabia does not allow Jews to live within its borders, yet the region had many Jewish inhabitants only a hundred years ago. Bahrain expelled most Jews before Israel even existed. The Jews of Judaea and Samaria and Jerusalem were driven out by the invading Jordanians, and the Jews in most other Arab countries (notably except Morocco, I think) have been persecuted and were trying to leave for the last hundred years or so.
It is true that the Arabs did not force the Jews to leave European countries. But what does that mean? They did force the Jews to leave their middle eastern homes, just as they make life intolerable for other minorities.
As for the massive genocide, it’s hardly the Arabs’ fault that Israel fought back and wasn’t destroyed. Otherwise the genocide would have been just as real.
But since the Arabs, in general, never did show any regret for treating Jews (and other minorities) like dirt and for attacking Israel and trying to “throw the Jews into the sea”, I somehow think that the Arabs today would not be quite as polite about it as the Germans are now.
When a Jew goes to Germany to demand his stolen property back, he will get it, and an apology. If a Jew were to try the same stunt in an Arab country his family was fleeing, he would not survive it, I am sure.
Had the Jews in Europe managed to defend themselves against the Germans I would STILL blame the Germans for trying. And the same goes for the Arabs who screamed “Kill the Jews!” in 1967 (http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,843937,00.html) and before. The fact that the Arabs FAILED doesn’t make them better people. It just makes them less competent than the Germans, FORTUNATELY.
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his followers including Arafat are not better than the Nazis, they are just less “fortunate”.
The idea that the same people who support Saddam Hussein are somehow better than the Germans in the 1930s is laughable. If you support a dictator who gases people you are scum, nationality has nothing to do with it.
As “intolerable” as Germans are, Jews can at least walk down a street in a German city and even carry a Star-of-David flag and not be attacked. And if they are attacked, you will find it is more often an Arab immigrant than a German Neo-Nazi who is trying to prove his moral superiority over the evil Jew.
And when we celebrated Hanukkah here in Dublin we had police protection. Guess what, it was not because of the danger that Germans might attack us.
Fact is that an Arab can walk down a street in Israel and be safe, a Jew can walk down a street in Germany and be safe, and an Arab can walk down a street in Germany and be safe. But a Jew cannot walk down a street in most Arab countries and be safe (if visibly Jewish).
And it has NOTHING to do with a “refugee issue” or the “occupation”. I grew up in Germany, my city was occupied by allied troops and many people had relatives who had fled from the parts of Germany that became Russia or Poland. But I never felt a need to attack American or Russian civilians nor did any of the refugees feel a particular need to bomb Polish kindergardens.
Those actions are not the result of occupation and refugee status, they are the result of anti-Semitism, hatred, and stupidity. And many Arabs seem to have a lot of those attributes, even (and often especially) those who have never had any relatives in “Palestine”.
Many Jews see the Arab presence in “Palestine” as an occupation of Jewish land and many Israelis are refugees from Arab countries. But for some reason shopping malls in Cairo do not fear that a Jew might walk in and blow himself up.
“as intolerable as Arabs are, they were not the ones that committed massive genocide on the jews using ubelievable methods such as gas chambers, concentration camps”
That didn’t stop the Arabs from supporting the measures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
I know _MANY_ Germans who violently oppose Nazis and anyone connected with them.
How many Arabs do you personally know who violently oppose the PLO because of their connections to the Nazis?
(I’m not saying that they don’t or cannot exist. I am just saying that it is not at all obvious that trying to murder Jews is a particularly German pastime that sets Germans apart from Arabs.)
Amal, severdal issues: one is that the Star of David mark for Jews was first used in a Muslim Arab country, by the Caliph of Baghdad during the 9th century to be precise. At the time, Christians were also forced to wear distinctive markings when living in Muslim lands.
Jews in both Christian and Muslim countries were forced to wear special clothing so that they could be easily identified by the majority populace. Nazism’s usage of the yellow emblem was nothing new - it was merely recent, and much better documented. Jews living in Arab lands largely had it better than their Christian counterparts, but this was not always the case (the Almuhadean dynasty comes to mind), and nor was it true after WWII.
Secondly, it was the Jews themselves who decided that the could no longer live in Europe. Those who saw the situation as such aimed (and often begged, as in Herzl’s visit to the Ottoman Empire’s capital) to build a free state for Jews. These were the same people who warned the vast European Jewish population that remained behind of the rising hatred and danger - only to fail and watch helplessly as so many died…
The only country that even saw the idea of a Jewish state as worth considering was Britian, and even there we’re talking about part of the leadership. The rest only changed that opinion *after* the great big war.
As for Sudan’s Jews, on the one hand I see your point. On the other hand, Israel until the Seventies was quite poor, and the only appeal to Jews would have been religious and national sentiments, rather than economic. And the fact that the few remaining Jews in Sudan hide their identity speaks volumes in itself. Incidentally, religion did a great deal to *start* your national discourse. Or was the man who called himself The Mahdi a secular one?
“As for Sudan’s Jews, on the one hand I see your point. On the other hand, Israel until the Seventies was quite poor, and the only appeal to Jews would have been religious and national sentiments, rather than economic.”
I totally disagree with him. If Sudan’s Jews would rather live in a country that was under constant attack and where certain death was the fate if it should ever lose a battle than in Sudan, their reason for leaving was likely not just one of wanting to live in a rich country.
“And the fact that the few remaining Jews in Sudan hide their identity speaks volumes in itself.”
Indeed. Considering all the alleged hatred that Jews have for Arabs and for all the oppression Israel allegedly practices, Arabs seem to have a rather relaxed attitude towards being identified as such in Israel.
If the same was true for Jews in all Arab countries, there would be no conflict in “Palestine”.
There is the root cause.
I really dont understand all the anti-arab sentiment. I lived in arab countries, I dont particularly like them, I dont think they are particularly intelligent, all their leaders without exception are cowards but if I was to have a clear look at the world and where it currently stands, then half of the world’s problems are not a result of Arabs.
Arabs do not have an influence on anything, they merely follow the US and bow down to anything it dictates to them. Arabs take more of a stand with Israel then they do with Palestine.
Its actually quite worrying your analysis of Israel as a poor victim among savage arab countries.
Israel occupation of the West Bank is against International Law, its treatment of Palestine and its people cannot be in anyway morally justified.
The fact that Jews went through the holocust does not mean that others have to pay the price. If you are a Palestinian, you cant leave Palestine as you may not be allowed in again. The Palestinians that left before the occupation do not have passports, they are in a worst position than any other race. If they are told to leave the country where they took refuge, they cannot go back to their country of origin. Many of them are stuck between borders, some have not been able to reunite with their families in Palestine for almost 50 years.
Israel and Sudan are not different at all, infact Sudan is much better than Israel.
In a recent BBC programme that went to investigate whether Israel could claim its still part of the Western Democracy clube, the findings were horrific. T
he israelies force Palestinians to leave their homes and give them away to settlers, they take their land and dont allow them to farm, they cut their water supplies, so they force them to leave and take more territory.
Not to mention the fact that they arrest kids as young as 10 year old & put them in adult prisons for long terms and the constant bombings of towns.
The Sudanes government claimed when it bombed villagers in Darfur that it was targeting rebel forces and that the rebels hid in the village deliberately.
The same argument is used by Israel day in and day out in reference to Hamas militants, why is it not genocide on their part and genocide on part of the Sudanese government?
I am not saying that one genocide is better than another but in my own personal experience as a black person who lived in both an Arabic state and a Western state, I cannot demonise Arabs.
While living in a Arabic country that most be 99% muslims, I did not feel threatened, my teacher in school was a christian who wore a crucifix and was open and comfortable about her religion, my bus driver was a hindu immigrant. Neither of those two had to hide their faith from anyone.
The Jews in Sudan were also open about their faith, had a singouge and a cemetary. I read a blog of someone whose family came to Israel from Sudan. He went to visit the country and said that he loved it and met people who knew his family and he did not feel any hostility for being Jewish.
I dont know whether you have ever being to Sudan or if you are Sudanese but Sudanese people are very warm, easy going people. Dont just watch the news and make assertions. Sudan is not what you think it is, Sudanese people are full of faith but they are not really that strict. If you listen to their sense of humour and attitude towards life, you will see that they really dont feel that strongly towards anything. All they want is to have a good life, be lazy and joke around.
Sudanese people might not as you suggest know much about Jews but honestly most Sudanese people dont know much about the outside world.
They are too absorbed in their daily struggles to care if someone is Jew or anything else. If you went to Sudan, as soon as you walk in a busy marker, you will see all colours and shades, no one bothers anyone because everyone is running trying to make their bread.
Our government is the one that is extremist but to be quite frank ,from what I have seen the people that suffer the most under the government are the muslims.
As a muslim woman you are not allowed to enter a public establishment such as a university without wearing a headscarf while your fellow Christian collegue could walk in wearing a mini skirt and a normal shirt. MUSLIM SUDANESE WOMEN have to wear a head scarf when appearing in television but any other women even if muslim could come on the television wearing anyting they please. Sharia law only applies to muslims.
Amal,
Most of the stuff you write is complete nonsense. And what does the Holocaust have to do with it? We wrote about things the _Arabs_ did, not the Holocaust.
Why is it not genocide when Israel fights Hamas? You really don’t know? Give me a break.
Palestinian Arabs are not dying by the ten thousands and are only attacked by Israel when they attack Israel first.
Plus, occupation is NOT against international law. That is a blatant lie. But what IS against international law is attacking another country, even if that country is Jewish.
If Israel were as terrible as you claim it is, why are Palestinian Arabs not fleeing Israel and the territories?
“I am not saying that one genocide is better than another but in my own personal experience as a black person who lived in both an Arabic state and a Western state, I cannot demonise Arabs.”
What genocides are you comparing?
I can tell you that as a student of U Haifa when it was targeted by the Lebanese militia is that demonising Arabs is extremely, especially since they so LOVE shooting rockets into Jewish universities.
Israel does not demonise Arabs, the Arabs do it themselves. Screaming for Israel to be destroyed and for the Jews to die is pretty much all it takes.
But to answer your question about the genocide:
1. Hunting down women and children and killing a grand total of 200,000 or more people = genocide.
2. Reacting to individual attacks and killing a dozen terrorists = not genocide.
Get it? It has NOTHING to do with whether the perpetrator is Jewish but ONLY with the number of deaths and the reason for the murder.
No Arab has to fear Israel unless he attacks it first.
But if Israel or Jews are attacked, do FEAR Israel!
The idea is that it is just too damn expensive to kill Jews these days. That’s why Israel acts as it does.
Stop killing Jews and there will be peace.
“the constant bombings of towns”
Yeah, sure, as if Jews had nothing better to do than waste ammunition.
Has a Jew ever attacked you? Has Israel ever done anything to you? Why do you demonise Jews?
_I_ have been attacked by Arabs.
Remember that Nasrallah (the head terrorist of Hizbullah) called on all Jews to assemble in northern Israel so he could kill them all?
And the poor, poor “Palestinians”… just because they vote for terrorists and want to fight Israel they are the victims when Israel fights back. Big deal. Israel never asked them to fight. It was THEIR decision. They voted for Hamas. They voted for Fatah. They vote for parties that WANT to fight Israel.
And then they complain when they lose the war they wanted.
If they want peace, let them vote for a party that advocates peace. But they don’t. I will start pitying them when they are done trying to kill me.
The difference between the Germans and the Arabs with regard to Israel is that the Germans succeeded in their attempt to murder a few million Jews and the Arabs did not. Also, the Germans have changed. The Arabs are still clinging to the hope that the Jews can yet be exterminated.
You don’t understand the anti-Arab sentiments? Watch “Palestinian” television!
“The fact that Jews went through the holocust does not mean that others have to pay the price.”
And nobody said that they should.
However, for their attempt to repeat the Holocaust, the Arab states should pay!
You cannot scream “kill the Jews” and then pretend that such a thing is some sort of European custom that you have nothing to do with.
And you cannot keep attacking and invading Israel and then pretend that occupying land is a “crime”.
And before you claim that Arab attacks were a response to Israel’s “crimes”, recall that the Arabs first invaded Israel BEFORE there was a “refugee problem” and that the PLO was formed BEFORE the “occupation”.
Also recall that the first Arab violence against Jews in “Palestine” happened BEFORE Israel was founded.
If the Arabs really wanted peace, Nasser would not have assembled a huge coalition to destroy Israel in 1967.
Why do I “demonise” the people who tried to destroy Israel? You really don’t know? Why do I demonise those who attempt to destroy and kill?
Amal-
I looked at your comments…I think you are WAY off in some of the things you say…and maybe not so far off on others. You don’t sound like a hateful guy…
I hope you will keep coming back here…both to share and to learn from us…I think, if we behave ourselves, ANDREW, you might begin to see things a bit different…
I have said this before…but start with this thought…it is always said about Israel how unfairly powerful they are…armed to the teeth by the USA…OK…agreed…
But if Israel were perpetrating genocide against the Palestinians…why are they doing such an enormously terrible job of it…Amal…any honest Palestinian will tell you…hell they THREATENED is Israel with, the fact, that there population is growing much faster than their Hebrew cousins.
Doesn’t genocide typically REDUCE populations?
Sorry for going really off-topic, but I really don’t think someone named Amal is a guy (unless you’re using the gender-neutral version of the term guy.)
Despite the fact that I doubt very much that the Muslim religion is racist (Muhammed seemed to be friends with some Ethiopians when he was there, from what I’ve read in history books and there are prominent Arabs who are proud of their sub-Saharan African ancestry but live or have lived in Arab countries, like Mohammed Al Amoudi), it still seems that when Arab Muslims use the slur abd it is always used against sub-Saharan Africans. If the Arab world is colour blind why is this slur (which seems to have the same connotations as the American “N” word) used?
Amal,
Saying that Arabs merely obey US hegemony ignores over fifty years of very bloody history with its Arab Nationalism and Nasserite pan-Arab aspirations, and to be frank it also ignores reality in the field today. Saudi Arabia may do business with the US, but the US has no control whatsoever with what happens within that country. Jordan and Egypt are both quite independent, though US aid to Egypt is pretty much given so that it will continue keeping its peace treaty with Israel.
Claiming that Israel is trying to genocide the Palestinians ignores the simplest factor - numbers. Palestinian casualties over the occupation period number thousands, and the Palestinian population just keeps growing and growing, far outstripping the water supply of Gaza for example.
As to the legality of the occupation, the Occupied Territories were captured from Egypt and Jordan during the Six Day War, and neither country had any wish to touch said territories again, stating it quite clearly in peace agreements. As a state of Palestine did not exist at the time (or at any time for that matter), there was effectively no one left to negotiate the territory’s post-war occupation with. For better or for worse, Israel was stuck with the land and its populace, in a very legal post-war occupation. In fact, the Palestinian Authority, which today has most of the required infrastructure and governing bodies for a state, was built *under Israeli occupation*, rather than under their previous Arab sovereigns.
As for the BBC program… Back during the Second Intifada, Israel conducted an operation known as Operation Shield Wall. One of its main goals was to clear out the explosives factories in the center of Jenin. The BBC, armed with many local interviews, claimed that the IDF had conducted a genocidal attack that left hundreds executed and buried in unmarked graves.
The reality, confirmed by several human rights organizations and the UN (which was quick to condemn the claimed genocidal act at first) found that about as many Palestinians died as Israeli soldiers, that the majority of said Palestinians were armed, and that the “genocide” existed only in propaganda and rating-seeking reporting.
BBC never saw fit to apologize, or to report a correction, and to this day the myth of the “Jenin Massacre” persists as a symbol of what happens when the most overblown and over-reported conflict on the planed doesn’t generate the “expected” news. I have little trust in the BBC’s ME reporting since, and while the BBC admitted to a certain bias when conducting an internal probe (a probe which saw little public awareness even in Britian) it also did nothing to change it, merely saying that “they try”.
“Despite the fact that I doubt very much that the Muslim religion is racist”
It isn’t. And nobody said it was.
However, Islam is not accused here, not was it even mentioned.
I am solely and only talking about secular Arab nationalism, which I consider just as evil and godless as German nationalism and “Islamic fundamentalism” which anybody who known me can tell you I don’t regard as Islam at all.
Islam is a rational monotheistic religion that teaches people that tribe and nation are not as important as what an individual does.
Islam has nothing to do with anti-Semitism or racism.
But pan-Arabism does, and I refuse not to regard it as evil and state so openly just because some people keep thinking that if I say “evil” I mean “Germans”.
I am from Germany and I am sick and tired of seeing it implied that Germany is to blame for everything, even ultimately for Israel and its “oppression” of (i.e. defence against) Arabs.
And nobody cares whether Germans are “demonised”; the Holocaust is being brought up again and again, but not by Jews but by those who try to divert the subject from Arab-Jewish relations.
There are today very very few Germans who to any extent defend the Nazi regime.
Once the same can be said about the Arab world, I will gladly see all of them as friends.
Christianity isn’t racist, National-Socialism is. Islam isn’t racist, Arab nationalism is.
And if you find a Jewish group that advocates extermination of, say, all Arabs (or destruction of all Arab countries), I will gladly call them racist and demonise them too.
Also, you may be right that the majority of Sudanese don’t care (or have the time to care) about Jews one way or another, but your government cares very much. Religious oppression of your own majority may be the main event, but your government’s views on “Zionists” (as are the views of far too many Imams) have a strong influence.
Most Sudanese learn of Jews through one of the above sources, and neither has anything nice to say about Jews, I’m afraid. So when a Sudanese-born Muslim meets a Jew, his opinions have already been moulded into him (and these preconceptions are not easy to change). And I’m afraid that these views existed long before the Nineties, as any Ethiopian Jew who had to go through Sudan during Operation Moses during will tell you. Let’s just say that these refugees weren’t treated very nicely, shall we? To the point where many of the children of that time and place (the adults of today) have no warm regard for Darfurian refugees here, simply because they have no wish to help anyone Sudanese.
A on January 18th, 2008 6:01 am
Sorry for going really off-topic, but I really don’t think someone named Amal is a guy (unless you’re using the gender-neutral version of the term guy.)
it’s a lady, you assholes … start behaving yourselves … even if amal is terribly wrong pretend that she is absolutely right and you have no other option but to agree …
Sorry for breaking down my comment into several sections, Amal. I realize that this may lead to some confusion, but I’m writing these from a mobile phone and can’t write that much in a single comment.
Now, Nobody, there’s no call for being *that* sarcastic so early in the day.
I don’t think Drima deserves seeing his discussion forum degrade into a fighting ground.
Sorry about that.
Damn! I’m going to need a while to go through all these comments… but for now let’s play nice shall we.
I’m fine with it… discussions like this tend to get heated anyway. It’s normal and they can actually end up being very educational. Continuous personal insults getting out of hand is what has the potential to annoy me though.
I think this discussion is gonna lead nowhere, we all seem very set in our ways and all have strong opinions on the subjects discussed but if you have something you believe in I dont see why not.
Andrew I am not speaking nonesense, I was speaking about reality, not drawing far off examples from history but trying to reflect on my own experiences.
Your denial of Israelis treatment of the Palestinians is really worrying. I will never defend my country if I believe its taking a morally corrupt stance. You disregard Palestinian casulties and treat them as though they are irrelevant, as if they are not follow human beings, who deserve the same equal treatment as you.
Israel attacks Palestine continually, if you watch the news you will see that this has been the case for the last 3-4 months. They force people off their homes to give them to settelers, cut their water supply, refuse to let people who left for any reason come back to the country. They built a wall that has destroyed the livelihood of many, restrict their movement within their own country.
God! you have no sympathy what so ever, I frankly see that as very shocking, its a reflection of strong hate.
As for Arabs living within Israel, they are indeed in a completely different predicment than their counterparts in the occupied territories, I dont dispute that but that does not mean that the ones in the occupied territories are not treated badly.
Palestine did exist before, it was under British occupation. The Jewish Europeans were placed there and the modern state of Israel was created. Just because the Palestinians had no control over their own country and were powerless to do anything does not mean the country did not exist.
You keep on refering to the wars that took place or could have taking place against Israel as genocide. Andrew, if a country goes and attacks another country, that is war plain and simple. If that is the case then all the wars that took and take place currently in the world are genocide.
Arab nationalism is dead, it does not exist in any shape or form. Arabs are absloutely divided. You have Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan on one side and Syria, Qatar on another. These two clubs cannot stand each other and have different approaches to the Western world. Arab countries are not free on what to do in their own countries, they are free to the extent the US allows them. I know for a fact the Saudia Arabia changed many things on demand from the US, that includes its national curriculum, its flag, its national laws etc. The same can be said of Egypt and Egypt is a prime example of a country that is ruled by a dictatorial regime, that has remained so long in power with support from the US.
Andrew, I dont blame Germany for anything. The holocust was committed by people from a different era, who not only oppressed the Jews but the German people themselves. I have German friends, I have been to Germany, have family that lives in Germany and I cant say that they have personally experienced any racism or that I felt the country was in any way a Nazi state, whenever we talk of Nazism we are talking about the past.
That is similar to you talking about the history of violence by Arabs. Arabs are not committing any violence against anyone at the moment,even when their were big jewish communities in the Arab world, they were not forced out using violent methods, they might have been senseitivity regardins Israel but as far as I am aware, I dont think there was any orders for them to vacate their homes or any oppression.
Roman, I dont know what to say about the Ethiopian Jews. There are many Ethiopian refugees in Sudan at the moment, maybe around 90,000. They can work freely in Sudan, they have homes and are treated in most instances better than the Sudanese. I somethimes feel as if they do not like the fact that a country like Sudan is taking them on as refugees, maybe that makes them feel degraded as they believe they are much better than the Sudanese. It upsets me to hear that they refuse to help our people in Israel, when our own people in Sudan treat them with so much respect. That is exactly what I mean when I say Sudanese people are too kind and naive. These people forget that Sudan was only country in the region that helped them escape the famine, that they did not even spend a long time in the country to have gone through bad treatment. Anyway, you would think that a person who has gone through a difficult circumstance will identify with someone who has gone through the same thing!
Amal,
You are simply repeating the lies the media tell us. Whenever I find a report about Israel attacking “Palestinians”, it takes me a while to find out what really happened and it turns out the “attacked Palestinians” were shooting rockets at Israel.
You are also ignoring what I say and reforming it to suit your understanding of the situation.
I am not saying that war is genocide, I am saying that trying to kill all the Jews is _attempted genocide_. And the Arabs ARE to blame for that.
Israel does not simply kill “Palestinians” for no reason. That is a lie. And it has nothing to do with being set in one’s way, it’s simply _wrong_ and a typical lie told about Israel to justify attacks.
“Palestine” did exist before the founding of the state of Israel. So what? Nobody disputes that. But it wasn’t an Arab state and its official name was “Palestine (Land of Israel)”. You can actually see that complete name (with “Land of Israel” abbreviated) on bank notes of that time.
So, yes, “Palestine” existed; but it wasn’t an Arab state.
And you can accuse me of disregarding “Palestinian” victims if you like, it won’t change the fact that those “victims” wouldn’t be victims if they weren’t attacking Israel all the time.
“Arabs are not committing any violence against anyone at the moment,”
Really? What about Darfur? What about Iraq, where Arabs kill each other and blow up mosques?
Do you even realise how ridiculous it sounds when you make such statements?
“even when their were big jewish communities in the Arab world, they were not forced out using violent methods”
That is another lie, and I am sure you believe it.
But do you seriously believe that the same governments and peoples that gas Kurds and slaughter Darfurians have somehow neglected to ue violence against Jews?
The same people who followed Nasser’s call to “throw the Jews into the sea” and the same people who support Hamas’ opinion that no Jew must be alive in Arab land (and that includes “Palestine”) are somehow not anti-Semitic?
IF Israel’s actions were to blame for all this, why, oh why, answer me this,
a) are other minorities also affected?
b) was Israel attacked BEFORE there was an Arab refugee problem?
c) were Jewish villages in “Palestine” attacked regularly in the 1920s?
If what you say were true, I would expect there to be hundreds of thousands of dead “Palestinians” (since Israel is so evil and powerful), and the first attack against Israel would have happened AFTER Israel started “mistreating” Arabs, not BEFORE.
“It upsets me to hear that they refuse to help our people in Israel,”
I don’t know where you heard that, but it must be the same source you usually use, because it is, again, simply not true.
The Sudanese refugees that made it to Israel, i.e. those not stopped or murdered by the Egyptian border police, have been helped and most of them have become Israeli residents and jobs after a few months.
But there is an easy way to try it out.
Walk through an Arab city and pretend to be a Jew, with Star-of-David on your shirt and kippa and everything. See what happens.
And walk through a Jewish city and pretend to be an Arab, with Arab nationalist flag on your shirt and wife with head scarf and everything. See what happens.
The results will tell you who hates whom and who can be trusted to leave you alone.
I suggest you try the Jewish city experiment first. You will find out why at the end of the second experiment, I am sure.
“I dont think there was any orders for them to vacate their homes or any oppression.”
I know you don’t think that. Germans didn’t believe it either back in the day. But how could you know? The people who did it certainly won’t tell you and if you have lived in Sudan they probably made sure that you won’t learn the other side of the story either.
Go to Israel and see for yourself. Ask a random person on the street. Most have family from Arab countries (or Iran), and few have stories to tell of great tolerance.
And then go to Sderot at the Gaza border and see for yourself how people who don’t do anything to anybody are under constant rocket fire and how Israel shoots back AT THOSE FIRING THE ROCKETS, prompting the BBC to claim that Israel attacked “Palestinians”.
You think my university in Haifa was under attack because Hizbullah had to defend Lebanon against Jewish students?
Do you believe Hebrew University in Jerusalem requires armed guards because there is a danger that an Arab who doesn’t hate Jews is “defending” himself against a dozen kids in a dorm whom he has never met before?
Do you believe the bombardment of West-Jerusalem by Jordanian forces was a military necessity because the Jews living there threatened Arab lives?
Amal, I’m afraid that the Jews among the Ethiopian refugees were treated quite differently than what you may be familiar with today. If I were to say that they were treated as dirt in their brief stay in Sudan, be it by police or by the average citizen in the street, it would be an understatement. They did not have jobs, or places to live in, and they remember the hostility towards them all too well.
And no, Amal, a Palestinian state did not exist under British rule, anymore than it existed under Ottoman rule, or under any other middle-eastern empire. The last sovereign country in this particular region was a crusader kingdom, and even at the time most of the area was part of Salah-a-Deen’s empire.
As for constant Israeli attacks and walls… Before that wall was built we lived through a period of at least one suicide bomber a day, of more rocket barrages than I could easily count, and constant shooting incidents at civilians (particularly in Jerusalem). And this went on for over a year. Pardon me for having a very dim view of Palestinian armed groups, their actions, goals, constant rearmament and statements regarding my well-being should I (or any other Israeli Jew) fall into their hands. Military checkpoints in the territories did not even exist a mere twenty years ago, and more than one Israeli government has tried to reach agreements with Palestinian leaders, only to be rebuffed when matters came to stopping the bastards with the suicide belts from crossing into Israel proper. Whenever matters came to the single armed force in Palestinian lands being the Palestinian police, agreements began to crumble. This is because the only consensus the myriad of Palestinian factions have yet to reach is one about armed conflict.
And sniping at civilian cars and sending teenagers to blow up in buses is in no way acceptable.
You mentioned that the Israeli army places children under arrest. Have you ever seen a 10 year-old with a slingshot? I mean the serious, leather affair, the kind whose lead ball or rock can break heads. And have you ever seen children being used as forward observes by this or that armed group? I’ve seen worse. I’ve seen a fifteen year-old with a suicide belt. I saw a much younger kid duped into carrying a bag of explosives to an army border post, his sole reason of survival being that the detonator malfunctioned.
You’ll find that Israel’s attacks have far too many reasons at times.
Arab nationalism is dead, it does not exist in any shape or form. Arabs are absloutely divided. You have Saudia Arabia, Egypt, Jordan on one side and Syria, Qatar on another. These two clubs cannot stand each other and have different approaches to the Western world. Arab countries are not free on what to do in their own countries, they are free to the extent the US allows them. I know for a fact the Saudia Arabia changed many things on demand from the US, that includes its national curriculum, its flag, its national laws etc. The same can be said of Egypt and Egypt is a prime example of a country that is ruled by a dictatorial regime, that has remained so long in power with support from the US.
i would rather say that whatever freedom exists in the arab world, much of it is due to the US pressure in particular under the current administration … you describe it as if not the US the arabs would have been long ago free and democratic societies … this is plainly wrong .. the arab world spent much of the post ww2 period fascinated with soviet communism …. never mind that such movements as Baath in iraq and syria were inspired by german nazism and later allied themselves with the soviets …
neither in our days the opposition to the same mubarak is particularly democratic .. the bulk of it are muslim brothers … have the arabs had normal democratic opposition it would have been much easier for the west and the same US to support it, but the situation is very different …
the arabs do occasionally make a point that the US should support whatever movement that rises to oppose arab dictatorial regimes, but many people remain unconvinced of the wisdom of this approach … the fact that arab regimes are bad does not mean that people that will come in their place cannot happen to be much worse …
Amal,
Just to give you a quick shock and an idea of what is really going on in “Palestine”:
http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_dec2007.htm#b041207
Note that during World War II there was no Israel.
I think you are only now seeing the beginning of the sad truth.
You have to stop believing what people tell you and start seeing for yourself.
Go to Israel and see Jews and Arabs live together and other Arabs trying to murder them. You’ll be surprised.
Listen to a few family histories.
And watch PLO television if you have the time.
Talk to Druze. They are mostly Israeli patriots and not Jewish. They can tell you whether Israel really “oppresses” Arabs for no reason.
Or buy a copy of Mein Kampf and see for yourself what it is that so many Arabs admire and whether it has anything to do with any alleged Israeli “crimes”.
“I saw a much younger kid duped into carrying a bag of explosives to an army border post, his sole reason of survival being that the detonator malfunctioned.”
And such things are then reported as “Israel detains Palestinian child”.
“This is because the only consensus the myriad of Palestinian factions have yet to reach is one about armed conflict.”
Actually, Roman, that seems to be the only thing they have reached an agreement on. Both the PLO and Hamas agree that Israel must be fought and the Jews killed. They disagree on whether to talk to them while doing so and how to run the “liberated” (aka Jew-free) “Palestine” afterwards.
I think the problem is we’re talking about history. We all know and understand different versions of it. This is precisely why I mostly tend to ignore talking about it because we can go on and on for days. Plus I don’t see how “talking louder” helps.
Salam Amal, there is one thing that I’d like to address
“Arab countries are not free on what to do in their own countries, they are free to the extent the US allows them.”
Arab countries do get pressured by the US. Yes. But you seem to imply that they are being controlled by the US. That, I disagree with.
US foreign policy has a lot to answer for. Yes. But our corrupt leaders have a lot MORE to be absolved of.
“I know for a fact the Saudia Arabia changed many things on demand from the US, that includes its national curriculum, its flag, its national laws etc.”
And why is that a bad thing? Many of these changes have been POSITIVE.
Amal, I don’t intend to be aggressive or anything like that so please don’t get the wrong impression, but it seems to me that you’re operating based on the presumption that the US is bad and is out to get us. Am I wrong?
Frankly speaking, it makes me uncomfortable. You blame “them” too much for what we ourselves should take responsibility for.
Looks like Nobody noticed the same statement…
As Andrew said, the closest thing to a Palestinian state that existed here was a British colonial area. There was no state before it though, no state after it, and no Palestinian national movement to speak of short of Amin il-Husayni’s Islamic vision, a vision he had no problem of supporting while he was in Iraq (supporting a brief armed coup by Nazi sympathisers that rampaged through the Jewish communities) and in the direct service of the Third Reich itself.
And yes Nobody, I pretty much agree with you there.
I am trying to be sympathetic to the “Palestinian cause”, but I am hard-pressed to find even a single “Palestinian” leader who doesn’t want Israel destroyed and doesn’t justify attacks against Jews.
If the “Palestinians” wanted peace, why did they not accept peace in 1949, 1967, 1994, or 2000 (or now)?
“We all know and understand different versions of it.”
Yes. But think of how that understanding dictates how we act today.
I think I get it now.
The Arabs did not leave Israel voluntarily and want to return despite the fact that Jews hate them so much and are the cause of their poverty.
And the Jews left Arab countries voluntarily for Israel and do not want to return despite the fact that the Arabs have nothing against Jews and attack only Israel.
So ultimately the Arab Jews left countries that were perfectly safe for them for a country that was a valid target for many wars (and known for its hatred for Arabs), while the “Palestinians” left a country where they would have been oppressed (they knew that in advance) and want a right to return there.
Plus the refugees from Darfur are fleeing Sudan for Israel despite the fact that Israel commits genocide against Arabs just as the Sudanese government does. They just happen to prefer wandering through a thousand miles of desert before being slaughtered, hence they flee to Israel.
I am sorry, but the above statements would have to be true if Amru was right.
It is hard to believe that so many Arabs want to be so close to an oppressive country like Israel while so many Jews try to live as isolated as possible from Arab countries.
You would assume that if Israel was so evil, Arabs would use the opportunity to get away from it.
And you would assume that if the Arab countries were a safe place for Jews, Jews would rather live there than in a country that must be destroyed.
Why do those Arabs choose Israeli oppression over freedom in Arab countries and why do those Jews choose a chance of being destroyed over a peaceful life among tolerant friends?
I probably wasn’t very clear, but firstly I wasn’t saying you can’t criticize women, just making a comment and secondly I’m not trying to debate Islam, I just want to know if this racist term “abd” is as prevalent as it seems to be in the Arab world. It was suggested that there was a lack of discrimination in at least part of the Arab world in this statement “I am not saying that one genocide is better than another but in my own personal experience as a black person who lived in both an Arabic state and a Western state, I cannot demonise Arabs.
While living in a Arabic country that most be 99% muslims, I did not feel threatened, my teacher in school was a christian who wore a crucifix and was open and comfortable about her religion, my bus driver was a hindu immigrant. Neither of those two had to hide their faith from anyone. ” I wanted to know if this is true, why these racist expressions still seem to be in widespread use, at least from reading conversations with certain Lebanese politicians and generally from listening to some conversations in Arabic.
To Amal, regarding your statement of “It upsets me to hear that they refuse to help our people in Israel, when our own people in Sudan treat them with so much respect.”, here is something I published in my blog a couple of days ago.
http://worldivided.com/2008/01/15/evil-racist-apartheid-israel/
I think you should retreat from your statement, because reality, as you see, is quite different than the lies presented by BBC and Al Jazeera
Amal-
In terms of Arab countries kissing up the USA…like most countries…they turn to whoever meets their current needs.
For decades…Arab countries licked the boots of the Russians…probably the biggest oppressor and abuser of Muslims of the entire 20th century. (e.g. Afganistan, Chechneya, all all the “stans” north or Iran).
And as for Arabs not killing people lately…they kill Jews, they have killed Americans, British, Spanish, Kenyans…but mostly they continue to slaughter each other or other Muslims: Algeria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan.
And you never responded to our comments about the “genocide” the FACT that Palestinian population is …excuse the pun…exploding…under the “occupation”.
this is an absolutely hilarious thread because everybody is talking to a certain amal but it’s close to impossible to find her comments … she probably commented two or three times and her comments disappeared in 60 something comments that followed … it’s like the whole forum here is talking to a ghost …
anyway, amal .. dont take it personally .. you are a nice person … we all got it …
Hey Drima,
I am so rude! I should have started by congratulating you for this great blog, its good to see you so persistent with it as precious said. Its suprising to see a Sudanese start something and finish off the course, we usually use up all our energy at the beginning and then dont bother to follow anything through!
I can never personally start a blog, I am too damn lazy and get bored so easily!
As for your question, I think you hit the nail on the head, I do think the US is the root of all evil.
My problem with the US is their focus on premption rather than diplomacy. They have made large parts of the world no-go zones.
First, they invaded Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, then they went into Iraq to get his weapons, now they are talking about the the war against Iran (which is probably going to happen in the very near future). Now Obama is talking about how if he became president, they will bomb Pakistan because that is where the number one enemy of the US (Al-Qaeda)are.
What the heck happened to diplomacy? They act as if the world is a Wild West set and they are in a mission to get the bad guys.
They are very bad when it comes to politics, refuse to talk to anyone, are totally irrational and refuse to think outside the box of good guys vs bad guys.
Even their allies are fed up with them now and refuse to supply them with anymore troops or get involved in their crazy suggestions.
Their economy is suffering in an unprecedented scale but they still demanding huge sums to fund their armies. I think they need to seriously take things easy and try and focus on something else apart from this war rehotoric because it has cost them far too much.
However, I dont mean that they are the reason why Arab countries are corrupt. Arabs dont need much help to be corrupt, be it from the Americans or anyone else. No one can force someone to do something they dont want to do, however the US does back countries that are tyrannical.
The changes that take place in Saudia Arabia or Egypt are in no way positive. Just because you change the outward appearance of something does not mean the substance has changed.
Saudia Arabia undertook changes like changing their flag or removing some verses of the quoran from the curriculum, that was the price they had to pay to continue their appalling human rights record, for their continued tyranny over the Saudi people.
If a system was to change, the change will not be positive if its done on the orders of someone else, there needs to be a desire to change. Saudia Arabia will only change once the current Saudi ruling family is abolished and the people take power,as long as Americans have their way, this will never happen.
Hosni Mubarak is becoming more of a tyrant than he ever was, he wants to change the constitution, make his son president, ban public demonstrations, the list is endless. There is nothing positive happening in the third world at the moment.
As for Vadim, you took my comment out of context completely and so did Andrew. Roman said the Ethiopian jews hated Sudan because of the way they were treated. I was addressing his comment and not talking about Israel in general. I know Israel has been given refuge to many Sudanese and Eriterians lately, its all over the news including Al-jazeera and the BBC.
you might not be aware of this but in the 1980s during the famine in Ethiopia, Israel wanted to take the falash away to Israel, a sort of a rescue mission.
No country in the region would allow the Israelies to go through their countries. Sudan was the only country that agreed but they did this secretly and no one was meant to find out. The flasha were deported to Sudan and then deported to Israel, not even the Sudanese people knew this was happening, everything was accomplished quickly and as soon as the flasha arrived in Sudan they were immediately flewn to Israel. It was only after they left that people found out.
Now they say they were mistreated in Sudan, however, no one even knew they were in Sudan as that would have defeated the whole purpose of the mission.
It just upsets me the way my people are constantly portrayed in such a light, if these people hate Sudan so much, why do they come to our country, why dont they go to Eriteria or Somalia?
Nobody,
Thank you, that is so sweet! Dont worry about me, I am a solider, I can take them all on !-)
I went away and came back to find all these comments and its too much to take in, I can only reply to a few of them cause I am too lazy to read everything here.
hey
so my mum’s uncle who is a sudanese jew has written a whole book on the subject and published it.. my grandmother is getting me a copy.. once i have the title i’ll let you know
i consider myself to be a sudanese jew.. even though im only 25%.. why? i guess because out of all of my family i am closest to the sudanese part.. i have heard the most stories.. i know the cuisin inside out.. my grandmother’s family was the poor family within the community - there to provide the rabbinical function of the community..
from my gran’s stories there were 500 families in total and they were mostly in khartoum but some spread out a bit.. except for my family (who were poor) most were very very wealthy..
my nan says today some of them live in israel (i stumbled across a grandson of one back in junior high) and some live in london boston new york and geneva..
there was a jewish club in khartoum and all the jewish youth would go there for evenings filled with song and dance.. sometimes they were paid visits by british soldiers.. sometimes these included jews and israelis who came down with the british army..
its all anecdotal and i wonder how much will be affirmed in my uncles book..
i love my gran’s stories..
“My problem with the US is their focus on premption rather than diplomacy. They have made large parts of the world no-go zones.”
_They made_?
Ha! As if Afghanistan was a paradise before the US arrived.
And have you seen pictures of Iraq before the invasion?
http://halapja.9neesan.com/
Or pictures of what the Americans found when they arrived?
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/
Do you have any other “examples” of places the USA have made into a no-go zone?
Are all those examples places where _Arabs_ have destroyed the country before the Americans arrived to rescue the place?
If you know as much about what America does as you know about Israel, I doubt that you can really make up your mind as to whether the US are to blame for anything.
What have the US done to you?
I can tell you what they did for me:
1. They liberated my country from the Nazis.
2. They forced my country to remain peaceful.
3. They defended my country against the Russians.
4. When the Russians surrounded West-Berlin, the Americans airlifted supplied into the city, food and a complete power plant.
5. They pumped billions of dollars into our economy to help us and Europe to recover from the war we started.
And now they are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you have the guts to demonise them for it?
You should thank them for the fact that at least they try to make the world a better place.
“It just upsets me the way my people are constantly portrayed in such a light, if these people hate Sudan so much, why do they come to our country, why dont they go to Eriteria or Somalia?”
Sudan commits genocide in Darfur and you accuse Israel of the same thing, just for the heck of it and without evidence, and you wonder what portrays your people in a bad light? Have you considered for the moment that it might be you?
As for your question: they did not “come” to Sudan, they fled through it. Like Darfurians flee through Egypt to Israel. Sometimes people just use the shortest path. It doesn’t mean they feel welcome there.
It is great that a Sudanese government once helped Jews escape, but I somehow don’t see how that makes the current regime any better.
And why do you think they kept that help a secret from their people? Did your government not know that Arabs have nothing but love for their Jewish brothers?
I cannot believe that you would actually have the audacity to claim that the _USA_ made Afghanistan (!) and Iraq into no-go zones. As if those countries were famous for being accessible and peaceful.
After DECADES of civil war in Afghanistan, the US, in 2001, finally made it a no-go zone? Is that it?
And after DECADES of war and fascism in Iraq, with MILLIONS of victims, the US, in 2003, finally made it a no-go zone? Is that right?
Plus you didn’t answer my question:
Why do those Arabs choose Israeli oppression over freedom in Arab countries and why do [Arab] Jews choose a chance of being destroyed over a peaceful life among tolerant friends?
The simple fact is that Israel, despite the fact that it has no oil and is allegedly racist and evil, seems to be the one place where absolutely everybody wants to go, either to escape Arab countries or to take over and rule it.
Think about it for just a moment: if Sudan and Israel both committed genocide, why would the Darfurians try to leave Sudan for Israel while the “Palestinians” try to “return” to Israel? Would you not expect millions of “Palestinian” refugees leaving Israel and the territories _NOW_ if it were true and Israel were as oppressive as you apparently think it is?
Why does everybody want to live in such an evil place?
Amal, the agreement between the Israel and Sudanese government officials involved, if I may be so blunt, large sums of money. Bribes, in short. And while the *why* wasn’t *publicly* known, it’s a bit hard not to notice a bunch of foreign people waiting around from weeks to months (their transport to Israel was by no means instant). People may have not realized that the refugees were in Sudan temporarily, waiting to go to Israel of all places, but Sudanese most certainly saw the Falash Jews in their stay in Sudan. And they didn’t get “nice” treatment. If I get the chance, I’ll dig up an article by a man who was there (as a young boy), and who could do nothing as he saw his father being beaten and humiliated by just about anyone who could bother.
Also, the case didn’t blow wide open after, but rather during the events. It prevented further transport planes from landing in Sudan at the time, and left many people stranded in Ethiopia until the Communists were finally overthrown.
And it wasn’t the famine, as such. Or rather not *just* the famine. The fighting between the junta and loyalist forces was quickly moving to the Beta Israel villages, and they would have been wiped out between the two forces. This was the first group at risk, and the one that was initially evacuated.
Found it: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3421569,00.html
And here’s another article that I found interesting: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342736,00.html
As for the US and diplomacy… The US did have an interesting discussion with the Taliban before invading. I think it could be best summed up like this:
US: “Hand over Bin-Laden.”
Afghanistan: “No, we like him.”
The Taliban weren’t the brightest sorts, you see. Neither was Saddam with his games of tag with the UN inspectors, or his “accidental” shootings at the forces that were supervising the sea and airspace of Iraq after the Gulf War. I’m only amazed that Clinton tolerated those, or that Bush did for so long, but I guess people weren’t interested in a war until they started to see the middle-east as a place fanatics grow up in.
Andrew,
You just dont want to open your eyes and see the truth, you are in so much denial! The US is not trying to make the world a better place, the world currently is at its worst state. I have seen many reports of journalist who lived in Iraq and went back to it after the war recently in the annivarsary of the invasion of Iraq, they said the situatio was unbelievably worse.
People are afraid of doing anything, you can be bombed if you go to your local shop, to university, to the petrol station, there is no peace, no security. what the hell the American soliders are doing I seriously dont know? there is so many of them but they cant seem to bring order.
The service sector is completely destroyed, there is no electricity and no water. Since the war started there is now more than 5 million refugees scattered across the middle east, some even made their way to Sudan.
Its true Afghanistan had wars before the US came in but those were mostly during the cold war and they were a result of the typical feuds between the US and Russia. The US used Bin Laden against Russia and armed the taliban, which is very typicall of it, just as it used Saddam Hussein against the Iranians.
For Gods sake, you cant be that blind, you ignore all news reports, dont appreciat news channels and focus on some weak websites that are all over the place and depend on cut and paste jobs.
And for Gods sake, Palestinians are not running to Israel, they leave their country (Palestine) and are not allowed back in because at the end of the day that decision lies with Israel.
No one runs away from Arab countries, I dont know what you are talking about? Sudanese and Eriterians are not arabs.
These are African immigrants living in Egypt, a country that has 70 million people without enough jobs and a lot of poverty, they dont allow immigrants to work so they can preserve jobs for their own populace and they probably have been waiting to be placed by the UN in the West but without avail.
For your information, they UN stopped giving refugee status to Sudanese because of the 2005 Peace agreement and recently in the UK Darfurian refugees were told to go back to Sudan because the House of Lords ruled the situation in Sudan was not dangerous and note this took place after the case went for a second appeal. The Sudanese are told they would not be placed in the west and they cant go back to Sudan because they have absloutely nothing and have to start from scratch.
So they go to the only country that offers political asylum in the region, which is Israel
Saudis, Kuwaities, Dubians,Bahranies, Moroccans Qataries, Libians, Omanies, Tunisians, Jordanies, Lebanese, Syrians etc.. are not running to Israel! They have no reason to run to Israel, actually more people choose to apply for jobs in the Arab world than Israel. Why not? they offer a comfortable lifestyle, great money and those countries are much more peaceful than Israel. Use your common sense what is safer Oman or Israel? What do you think the common person’s answer to that would be?
Roman,
I didnt say the Sudanese transported the Ethiopians out of the goddness of their hearts, its obvious they did it for money. All the regimes we had in Sudan are money hungry and they will never do anything if they are not paid for it, I was trying to explain my response to your comment to Vadim.
My point was that the Ethiopians were not in Sudan for long at all, I dont know if you are very familiar with Ethiopians but they do not look that different from Sudanese. Even if the flasha did not know any Arabic, their are many Sudanese who speak native languages and they can still be classified as Sudanese from the East of Sudan.
The flasha community has its own deep problems in Israel, whether its regarding their status in the country or within their own community, especially the rape allegations by their elders towards young women when they were stationed in Sudan.
Frankly, I think they were properly treated worse in Ethiopia than Sudan. Ethiopians are much more violent and racist than the Sudanese, they treat minority tribes like slaves, not allowing them to be educated and given them menial jobs.
I have a Somalian friend who had to go through Ethiopia, they were spat at, beaten in the streets and were never given work or assistance, but everyone knows Sudan is the complete opposite of that, just ask any east Africans. Like I said if these people dont like Sudan, let them go through any other country.
I disagree with the author of the first article. I think Israel should help the Sudanese refugees, not because they deserve it, but because nobody else will.
Israel is a country of refugees and, if ever, will go down as a country of refugees.
The self-proclaimed “Muslims” who are looking forward to the destruction of Israel will have to answer to one greater than ourselves, as will the world for helping them.
And if they are successful in destroying the last refuge of their victims, they will need their belief that G-d is allmercyful.
I am not a very religious person, but I do believe that there is ultimately someone we all have to answer to, especially those among us who in this life claim to be representing G-d.
The founding of Israel was not a chance for Jews to protect themselves, because G-d does not punish the persecuted.
It was a chance for those who persecute Jews to save themselves.
Amal-
I will take on just one of your points: Iraq.
I am an American…and I have very mixed feelings against that war. But I will not close my eyes to the facts as you call them:
1. You will hear many many stories of Iraqis that are very happy we came there.
2. Why do people like yourself never count folks like say, the Kurds or Iraqi Christians…that are quite thrilled with what the Americans have done.
Is the world a more dangerous place today? Hmmm..yes and no. Is it full of “no fly” zone or whatever it was you said? Really? Where? Europe-no, The entire western Hemisphere? No
Russia? No China-No Africa-No Iran-No Southeast Asian-no
Can you be a bit more specific?
Can you answer the question about how Israeli genocide has led to a rapid an overwhelming INCREASE in the Palestinian population?
I do admire you for hanging in on this topic. Though I think you are a victim of propoganda…I can tell you are not a robot.
Oh…and before you go off on how do “I” know more than you;
I lived in Israel
I worked in Arab villages in Israel
My wife’s family and sibling are all from Iraq (so if you are going to accuse me of being predjudous against Arabs…well good luck
I have regular contact with people that were in and are in the Israeli army, NONE of which has every killed a Palestinian (Egyptians yes…in 1973 when Egypt attacked Israel)
I have been witness, hundreds of times, to Arabs freely walking the streets of Israel, including primarily Jewish areas such as Tel Aviv, running businesses, going shopping and never getting hassled.
Can a Jew walk freely in Jenin, Gaza, and similar places? Sure they can…for a few seconds and then they would be murdered…as several have been over the years.
Drima,
Great post.
Don’t you think its interesting that we have a all countries except Israel stamped on our passport?
We never went to war with Israel.
Anyways
here you go
Meet Nessim Gaon , a Sudanese-born businessman who was granted Swiss citizenship recently. he owns one of the largest hotels in Switzerland. He created the Noga company.
http://www.spock.com/Nessim-Gaon
“Nessim Gaon (pronounced NEE-SEEM GAH-OHN) (born 1922, in Khartoum, Sudan) is a Swiss financier who created the Noga company. Outside the business world, he has been very prominent in Jewish affairs, acting as president of the World Sephardi Federation since 1971. He has also been a vice president of the World Jewish Congress and chairman of the board of governors of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. Among his assets is the Noga Hilton in Geneva, Switzerland. ”
Also, I believe I have Jewish relatives. My grandfather married many many women. One of them married a Jewish guy. so technically, his great grand children now are part Jewish. Their last name is Israel.
They live a few houses away from us, they are as Sudanese as 7abobti though.
Kizzie…
It is kind of interesting thing I run into now and again…
According to biblical law…if you MOTHER is Jewish…you are Jewish…doesn’t matter if your dad was Osama Bin Laden…you are Jewish…
I occasionally run into people that say things like; “you know…my great grandmother was named…Cohen” or some such thing. So I ask if it is the maternal great grandmother…if yes…then I ask if grandma or Mom had convered to another religion…typically I get the “well, they never really practiced anything and neither did we”…
Then I say “guess what…Shabbat Shalom”.
It is kind of a screwy thing…but true. This just happened to me with two people, one woman in her 70’s running a condo. in the middle of some little hole in southern Baja and another who grew up thinking she was a classic Mexican American.
Surprise surprise…
I suspect Drima has a bit of Jew in him…In fact…there are rumors he hides bagels and lox under his prayer rug. I tend to believe it.
Kizzie….
Nissim Gaon sure looks like an Iraqi (Jew) to me…say he was born in Saudia…
But we come in all flavors…from trout belly white to Falasha dark.
Interesting thing that nobody has answered for me..
We talk about Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs…but never about Jewish Arabs…they are called “Jews from Arab countries”…why do you think that is? My wife looks like an Iraqi, speaks Arabic like an Iraqi, cooks Iraqi dishes and yells “ku lu lu lu lu” when excited…There is some twisty racist kind of thinking there I’ll tell yo what.
Howie,he was actually born in Khartoum. All credible sources confirm that he was born in Khartoum, Sudan.
Yes, there are many Arab Jews. Last semster, a student at my university wrote an article about Egyptian Jews. IT’s really hard for them to come out and say they are Jewish though. Most of them claim they are copts. Anyways, I think there are about 500 jews left in Cairo ( in other words, 500 were brave enough to say they are Jews). Also, egyptian-israeli marriages are on the rise ( a famous Egptian journalist said the number is close to 20,000). IF we assume that in most cases, the fathers are Egyptian ( Muslim or Christian) then the mothers must be Israeli Jews. In other words, the kids can chose to be Jewish because their mothers are Jewish.
My relatives are Jewish from their fathers side actually. I was talking to my mum and she said that (rumor has it)that Fatima Mohammed Ibrahim- the first Sudanese feminist has Jewish roots.
“We talk about Muslim Arabs and Christian Arabs…but never about Jewish Arabs…they are called “Jews from Arab countries”…why do you think that is? My wife looks like an Iraqi, speaks Arabic like an Iraqi, cooks Iraqi dishes and yells “ku lu lu lu lu” when excited…There is some twisty racist kind of thinking there I’ll tell yo what.”
It makes sense to me because “Jews” are a people, not a religion as such. However, Jews from Arab countries (or Arab Jews) are usually both Jews and Arabs, much like European Jews are Germans (Jews from the former Soviet Union can immigrate to Germany and are granted an automatic residence permit and can claim citizenship).
You can believe everything Judaism believes and not be Jewish, and you can be Jewish and be an atheist (or Muslim or Christian or Hindu etc.).
Israeli Jews often look German (even Germanic) or Arab or black, but none of that matters (or should matter).
Remember this interesting case?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Yarkoni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binyamin_Ben-Eliezer
I think most Egyptian-Israeli marriages are Muslim-Muslim, Kizzie. We do have a large Muslim minority, after all.
Mind you, many within the Egyptian administration seem to earnestly believe that Israel is a Jew-only country, and that the children of any Israeli-Egyptian couple will then come into Egypt as Jews with an Egyptian citizenship, demanding property rights.
Roman Kalik,
When I was told about it, this is the impression I got.
The ambassador’s house in Cairo looks more like a high-security prison to me. It is well-guarded!
“The ambassador’s house in Cairo looks more like a high-security prison to me. It is well-guarded!”
My guess is that that is to protect Arab nationalists, Nasserists, and Islamic fundamentalists from the violent and oppressive Israelis inside the building.
We had similar arrangements for the public lighting of the Hanukia in Dublin a few weeks ago. A dozen police surrounded the small area in front of tghe lord mayor’s mansion, presumably to protect white supremacists, Islamic fundamentalists, and well-meaning liberals from the 100 Jews in attendance.
If you don’t watch the Jews closely, they might oppress you. Better be careful!
“My guess is that that is to protect Arab nationalists, Nasserists, and Islamic fundamentalists from the violent and oppressive Israelis inside the building.”
Yeah, I figured. I’m sure he doesn’t leave his house often.
“If you don’t watch the Jews closely, they might oppress you. Better be careful!”
check this out
http://blakerig.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/israel-and-sudan/
I replied in the thread you linked to:
“I believe that Israel imposes apartheid on Palestinians.”
Well, you believe wrong. Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jewish citizens of Israel.
Citizens of an ENEMY COUNTRY on the other hand, do not.
I fear that most countries handle the situation that way. I can tell you that when West-Berlin was under American occupation, we the people of West-Berlin, certainly did not have the same rights as American citizens.
“I recognize it as a state if it recognized the right of Palestine as a state too.”
Great. Israel did and does recognise the right of “Palestine” as a state. The Jews accepted the partition plan and recognised the founding of an Arab state, the Arabs rejected it.
In 1967 Israel offered to return the West Bank and Gaza so it could be an Arab state, but the Arabs rejected the offer.
In 1994 Israel again offered peace and an Arab state, and Arafat ultimately rejected it.
Same in 2000.
And now Israel has withdrawn from Gaza but the “Palestinian” people have voted for WAR rather than a STATE.
So what exactly do you want Israel to do instead of saying YES every single time the question of the Arab state comes up?
“Through all of this, 25% of the world’s refugees are Palestinians.”
That is simply not true.
First of all, the number of Arabs that fled Israel is almost equal to the number of Jews that fled Arab countries. The reason those Jews are not refugees is because Israel made them citizens.
Are you going to blame Israel for Arab failure to grant citizenship to their brethren? Or would the moral scales be showing equal if Israel had NOT granted citizenship to the Jewish refugees (and if thus there were still official Jewish refugees even today)?
Second, there are a few million Palestinian Arabs (you have somehow decided that a “Palestinian” is a non-Jewish inhabitant of Palestine, which I consider a racist definition, which is why I use “Arab” instead), but there are many millions of refugees in Africa.
Third, there is a difference between “refugee” and refugee. The fact that the UN and Arab countries call them refugees doesn’t make them refugees. The vast majority of those people have NEVER FLED ANYWHERE and have been born long after the supposed fleeing took place. How can they be refugees other than by courtesy? (And why is that same courtesy not applied to the children of Jewish refugees from Arab countries or even the children of German refugees from Poland?)
“Don’t they deserve to have a country too?”
Yes, they do. And I think they should have founded one in 1948. Or at any time between then and 1967. Or in 1967 when Israel offered it. Or in 1994 when Israel offered it again. Or in 2000, or perhaps now.
They only have to stop the attacks. Why they don’t do it, I do not know. It has nothing to do with a need to “defend” their people against Israel because Israel has never attacked those who didn’t attack Israel PLUS they don’t have the means to defend themselves against Israel if Israel really wanted them dead any more.
None of the grievances you have are in any way Israel’s fault.
The Palestinian Arabs should have a state, yes. I am as Zionist as they come, but you will never hear me say that I don’t believe that Arab Palestinians should have a state.
Israeli Arabs should have equal rights in Israel, yes. Again, as Zionist as they come, but I never ever promoted unequal rights. (In fact, I am in favour of drafting Israeli Arabs into the army and treat them exactly like Jewish soldiers. I wouldn’t make a difference at all based on ethnicity or religion.)
And I doubt you will find many Zionists who are against any of your demands, except the one that all this is somehow our fault.
Israel is not to blame for being attacked by the Arabs BEFORE there ever was a refugee problem. And Israel is not to blame for what happened (or didn’t happen) in Gaza and the West Bank before 1967.
And Israel is not to blame for the Arab refusal to accept the partition plan or any of the peace treaty offers later.
“Israel is a 1st world country while many Palestinians are homeless.”"
And an Arab state could have become as rich as Israel, had the Arabs founded one and not invaded Israel. And how come Israel developed into a first world country in the 50s and 60s and Gaza and the West Bank did not? It has something do with Israel that Israel developed so much. But it has nothing to do with Israel that Gaza and the West Bank, and Egypt and Jordan did not.
Fact is that Israel defends itself.
And if you want to know why, simply dress up as a Jew and walk through an Arab city. You will see first hand why Israel has decided to make it VERY EXPENSIVE INDEED to kill Jews.
And if you think that Jews are only hated in the Arab world because of what Israel did, let me remind you that
a) the Jewish refugees that arrived in Israel and elsewhere from the Arab world complained about DECADES of mistreatment
and
b) other minorities are also treated like dirt or worse in Arab countries, including Christians and Darfurians (and Nubians) in Sudan and Kurds and Shiites in Iraq (which is also why the Kurds very much welcomed the invasion you so graciously opposed as if you didn’t care about the plight of the Kurds and Shiites under Saddam).
You can also dress up as a Muslim Arab and walk through Tel Aviv and see how the Jews react. That way you will easily find out which side starts fighting and why all attempt to reach a peace so far simply haven’t worked.
If you want to be critical of Israel, please refrain from using arguments that are lies or half-truths.
Israel does NOT impose “apartheid” on Arab citizens and NO country gives the same rights to ENEMIES as to its own citizens.
(I have myself shared a university dorm with Israeli Arabs.)
Israel does NOT deny that the Arab Palestinians have a right to their own state, and neither do Zionists.
(I personally support such a state and would be happy if the Arabs finally got around to founding one. I would be even happier had they founded in 1948 like they were supposed to. Do you really think that Israel PREFERRED being attacked and nearly destroyed over seeing an Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza?)
Palestinian Arabs are NOT 25% of the world’s refugees. The majority of those so-called “refugees” have never seen the place they allegedly fled from.
(Also, the Jewish refugees were never taken into account. BTW, I, the evil Zionist himself, completely support a scheme where those refugees and their descendants would be compensated by Israel. In fact I would accept it if the Arab League dictated how much money each family should get in compensation. And I support that Israel would have to pay that money to that Arab state you demand. I have no problem with that. Let them simply tell Israel how much a refugee should get and let’s multiply it by the number of original refugees.)
“I guess I’m just against inflicting pain and suffering on people.”
Does that mean that you were opposed to the original Arab invasion of Palestine when Israel was founded?
What about subsequent attacks? What about 1967 when Arab forces marched towards the border and blocked Israel’s access to the Red Sea and Arab radio stations screamed “Kill all the Jews!”?
What about daily rocket attacks from Gaza? Are you against those? What should Israel do against them? (I insist that waiting them out is NOT an option. If you feel that rocket attacks must be opposed peacefully, YOU can oppose them peacefully.)
It is great that you wouldn’t kill an Israeli if you saw one. But do you understand that the attitude that makes it necessary to make that statement is exactly what is at the core of this conflict?
Don’t make the distinction between the Jewish people and the state of Israel. The state of Israel does what it does to protect the Jewish people from attacks. The fact that that is necessary can be clearly seen by how Jews were treated in the Arab world for decades (or even centuries) before Israel was founded and by how other minorities are treated in the Arab world. Your distinction is one between X and the survival of X.
Without Israel, middle-eastern Jews would no longer exist in any great numbers. How can you not hate the Jews but despise the mechanism that saved them?
Consider this:
If Israel was so oppressive, why do the Palestinian Arabs that live within Israel’s sphere of influence not run away?
The Jews ran away from Arab countries. They do not want to return. Israel cannot be as bad as those Arab countries, otherwise we would have a general movement FROM Israel TO Arab countries, not vice versa.
I realise that Palestinian Arabs want to live where they grew up and where they have their family roots, but if Israel really was so bad, why do not at least 30% of them protect themselves by running away? The Jews did flee Arab countries once given the chance to run SOMEWHERE.
Why do Israeli Arabs remain Israelis and not become part of an Arab state (every poll says so)?
If Israel hadn’t been attacked in 1948, and the Arabs had never fled the country and had become citizens like those that remained, would you still hate Israel?
If yes, what would you hate about a state with equal rights for Jews and Arabs?
If no, why do you hate Israel for something the Arabs did to Israel?
When I studied in Haifa, the introduction contained a quote from the mayor of Haifa in 1948. He and the previous (Muslim) mayor PLEADED with the Arabs to stay and defend the city against the Arab invaders from Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, and Transjordan.
Most did not stay. And the city almost fell.
What do you blame Israel for? Asking the Arabs to stay and defend their home against invading armies? Not forcing the Arabs to stay when they started leaving? Not dying when the Arab armies did attack?
You can deny that that is what happened, but that wouldn’t answer my question.
IF the above was true, and Israel asked the Arabs to stay and they DIDN’T, would you blame _ISRAEL_ for the refugee problem or not?
Because if that answer is no, you will change your opinion about Israel once you find out the truth, in old newspapers if nowhere else.
Do you even know how many Jews fled Arab countries for Israel?
Do you agree or disagree that refugees deserve compensation?
And, considering how Jews were treated in Arab countries (badly enough to want to run away) and how much Jews are hated by Arabs, especially by Palestinian Arabs, do you think it is a good idea to force Jews to live next door to them in the same cities? What can be the result of that?
And consider this: Israel has the bomb, apparently. Israel also has superior weapons technology. And Israel has money.
So why are the Palestinian Arabs still alive?
There are three possible answers:
1. They fight back and Israel fails to kill them all.
That would mean admitting that the Palestinian Arabs are a mortal danger to Israel, and not just peaceful victims of Israeli aggression.
2. The world won’t let Israel kill the Palestinian Arabs.
That answer assumes that it is obvious that Israel would kill them if given the chance. That would be anti-Semitism, wouldn’t it? We have never seen Israel attempt to kill all Palestinian Arabs, hence claiming that Israel wants to do that and can’t must be based on prejudices rather than fac