Maybe. Maybe not. Either way I’m loving it. Why? Simple. Because it’s pissing off Hamas and the Iranian regime. 
I watched the speeches a while ago. Both Abbas and Olmert delivered theirs eloquently. It’s highly evident that the speeches were very carefully crafted since delivering them is like walking in a minefield. One wrong sentence and a damaging explosion could be set off.
Overall, I liked what was said and while there is surely a lot of skepticism, this is a significant event which I’m happy to witness taking place.
Olmert is going to have a hard time convincing the Israeli right-wing that East Jerusalem will go to the Palestinians while Abbas is going to have a headache telling his people there will be no right of return for the refugees. Undoubtedly, those two are the hot core issues.
If anything, this conference has succeeded in isolating Hamas and the Iranian regime further. Clever.
What do you think? Consider this an open thread on the conference.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 70 comments… read them below or add one }
“Maybe. Maybe not. Either way I’m loving it. Why? Simple. Because it’s pissing off Hamas and the Iranian regime.”
THAT is a good point!
“Olmert is going to have a hard time convincing the Israeli right-wing that East Jerusalem will go to the Palestinians ”
I personally don’t care about East-Jerusalem. It’s dirty and poor and people seem to be painting graffiti on everything. For all I care the Arabs can have it.
(I wonder if the people living there WANT to live in am Arab state though. More and more of them request Israeli citizenship. What if they don’t want? Will the “Palestinian cause” be worth more than the Palestinian people?)
But the old city is another matter. The first Muslim who can imagine willingly giving up Mecca can tell me that giving up the old city is something Israel should consider. But even Jordanian control of Jewish holy sites resulted in destroyed graveyards. I don’t think we can trust these people with holy sites.
G-d designated Jerusalem as a Jewish city and Muslims who read the Quran know this. I there is a god and if He is the god of the Tanakh and Quran, the secular PLO should be careful. (And Hamas can already forget heaven.)
“while Abbas is going to have a headache telling his people there will be no right of return for the refugees. Undoubtedly, those two are the hot core issues.”
It’s easy. There never was a “right of return” for the Jewish refugees either, or compensation. Israel managed to explain that to the Jewish refugees. Abbas could tell his population that the Jews went through the same thing and that he believes that the “Palestinian people” are just as strong as the Jews, if not stronger, and can take it like men.
(The women can take it like women.)
“If anything, this conference has succeeded in isolating Hamas and the Iranian regime further. Clever.”
Yes. Now we just need to isolate the Saudi Arabian dictatorship as well and liberate Mecca and Medina.
Jerusalem back to the Jews, and Mecca and Medina back to the Hashemites and under Muslim control (as opposed to Wahabi control). That would be the foundation of a new, old middle east; a middle east with traditions and a future.
And then there is the old compensation solution for the refugee problem:
Let the Arab countries decide how much the Arab Palestinian refugees should receive each. If they think it should be a lot of money, let them make it a large sum. If they think it should be very little money, let them make it a small sum. They can show how much they are simply by naming a number.
Israel will then have to pay that sum to the legitimate Arab Palestinian government.
(I don’t really think Israel is to blame for what was ultimately a flight from a war that Israel didn’t start but I know these things don’t matter.)
Since Jews and Arabs are of equal value, being both human; and since the number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries was about the same as the number of Arab refugees from the Jewish country, the Arab governments would then, obviously, have to pay the same amount to the Israeli government. (If we do not demand that, we would acknowledge that, in general, creating a refugee problem is acceptable. And I doubt we want that.)
I find this solution most excellent.
Well, they can’t NOT try, can they? The alternative is far too depressing to contemplate.
Andrew:
“(I wonder if the people living there WANT to live in am Arab state though. More and more of them request Israeli citizenship. What if they don’t want? Will the “Palestinian cause” be worth more than the Palestinian people?)”
That’s an interesting question. I only know one person who lives in East Jerusalem, and he regards himself as Palestinian and wants nothing more than to live in a free and independent Palestine. Of course, that could only be one side of the story. But could it be that people are opting for Israeli citizenship simply because being stateless in occupied territory means being discriminated against and treated as third-class citizens?
“But the old city is another matter. The first Muslim who can imagine willingly giving up Mecca can tell me that giving up the old city is something Israel should consider. But even Jordanian control of Jewish holy sites resulted in destroyed graveyards. I don’t think we can trust these people with holy sites.”
I think comparing Jerusalem to Mecca is apples and oranges. Mecca has never really been terribly important to anyone else but Muslims, and today no on else but Muslims wants it. On the other hand Jerusalem is important to Jews, Muslims AND Christians. Therein lie the complications.
I also get extremely uncomfortable when people seem to see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as a purely religious Jewish-Muslim issue. It’s NOT, and both Jews and Muslims need to realise that. Plenty of Palestinians are neither Jew nor Muslim and yet they regard Jerusalem as their ancestral home.
It’s also worth noting that the Israeli authorities have either destroyed, suppressed or willfully overlooked many important Christian holy sites.
Having said all that Andrew, I do understand your concern - the majority of Palestinians ARE Muslim, and Muslims these days tend to display a general trend of intolerance. If Muslim Palestinians took over the old city, I’m not convinced myself that they would manage it in a way that was fair and equal to all three faiths. In fact there’s even a very real possibility that the Christian Palestinians would still find themselves discriminated against, along with Jews.
So although I hate to say this, maybe it wouldn’t be such a good idea for the Palestinians to have the old city after all. I dunno.
Sheema,
Comparing Jerusalem to Mecca is apt because Jerusalem is viewed by religious Jews in the same manner as Muslims view Mecca. Other faiths may view the city as important, but not hardly to the same degree. And this does not change the way the Jews view Jerusalem, or the way Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem have been treated throughout the centuries (garbage dumps come to mind).
As for Christian sites, please enlighten me as to what Israel has destroyed or suppressed. I can understand ignored, as the Israeli authorities largely leave Christian sites under the management of the churches without getting involved in the upkeep, but destroying them? This I’m not familiar with to say the least.
Roman,
OK, now I see what Andrew was talking about - fair enough. However, what I actually meant was that you can’t compare the two situations - there are no competing claims for Mecca as there are for Jerusalem. So perhaps in terms of significance of the two holy sites, yes, it’s comparable - but not the contexts. And to me that’s where the problem lies.
Also, as I noted before it’s not just a purely Jews vs Muslims kind of situation - the Christian minority appears to be largely disregarded by most, and to them the old city is both an important holy site as well as their home.
As for Christian sites - I’ll try to dig up the info, which I read in a book somewhere. The one I can vaguely recall was something about a parking lot being built over Christian historical ruins.
Yet another conference of dratt al-balat (I am sure Nizo will forgive me for occupying this saying
).
The assorted Arab states stated quite clearly that there’s nothing to talk about as long as Israel exists.
Same for Fatah.
And should Israel’s current Government of Worms kill or deport more Jews for more dratt al-balat, they’re going to be overthrown. Olmert and his bunch of merry opportunists have pretty much zero popular support. All over Israel, lighters decorated with the picture of Olmert’s head being hit with a hammer are sold like hot pies. And the people of Israel will never forgive Fatah for failing their August assassination attempt on the Worm-in-Chief.
Sheema - about Christian sites - bullshit. Sorry, love, but I bet you my kidneys against 5$ that it’s yet another antisemitic lie. Unlike the abomination called the Waqf Authority purposefully and systematically destroying priceless Jewish archaeological and religious artifacts on Temple Mount.
And Drima, about this waste of air conference pissing the Iranians and Hamas off - this crock of shit is likely to end up emboldening Syria again. Wait for another wave of assassinations in Lebanon and more Syrian dissidents disappearing.
The West learned nothing from Chamberlain: this is more “peace in out time” speeches.
“But could it be that people are opting for Israeli citizenship simply because being stateless in occupied territory means being discriminated against and treated as third-class citizens?”
They have been living without citizenship (but with the right to claim it) in annexed territory (Jerusalem is not under occupation, i.e. its inhabitants have or can get citizenship) for decades.
Now that a “Palestinian” state is possibly founded, they suddenly decide to become Israelis to avoid being stateless? They have been stateless for decades and are now avoiding being citizens of the Arab state. That’s the long and short of it.
(I myself grew up in occupied territory without citizenship of the occupying power. Luckily another country made up of the same ethnic group granted me citizenship.)
“On the other hand Jerusalem is important to Jews, Muslims AND Christians. Therein lie the complications.”
Mecca is important to the Bahai as well. But they are not allowed even to travel there. That is never seen as a “complication”.
OTOH Muslims are free to come to Jerusalem and pray, as are Christians. The “complication” is that Muslims are currently unable to prevent Jews from praying there. And they regard that as a violation of their rights. (Apparently they ought to have the right to dsicriminate against other religions.)
Competing claims, which exist for both Mecca and Jerusalem are too easy. Anybody can make a claim for any city, that doesn’t mean that they ought to own it.
Shi’ite Muslims claim Mecca just as Sunnis and Wahabis do. But do we demand apartition of Mecca into several parts to accomodate those claims?
However, what I actually meant was that you can’t compare the two situations - there are no competing claims for Mecca as there are for Jerusalem. So perhaps in terms of significance of the two holy sites, yes, it’s comparable - but not the contexts. And to me that’s where the problem lies.
The contexts are not that different, sorry. Mecca is fully controlled by Sunni Islam, and yet Shi’a Islam views it as extremely important as well. And yet I hear of no plans of joint management or partition.
Also, as I noted before it’s not just a purely Jews vs Muslims kind of situation - the Christian minority appears to be largely disregarded by most, and to them the old city is both an important holy site as well as their home.
In religious terms, the Christians are far from being disregarded, as the religious communities aren’t bothered by the Israeli authorities, and neither are the sites. I see no supportable claim of Christian sovereignty on the area on the basis of religion.
As for a home in the national sense - again, where does Christianity come in here? As long as the religious sites aren’t being torn down, and are treated with respect, and as long as Christians with Israeli citizenship can live in Jerusalem freely, where exactly is the problem?
As for Christian sites - I’ll try to dig up the info, which I read in a book somewhere. The one I can vaguely recall was something about a parking lot being built over Christian historical ruins.
Sounds extremely unlikely, what with extremely strict laws here in Israel regarding religious sites and sites of archaeological value.
If you want parking lots and systematic desecration, read up on what happened to the Old City of Jerusalem under Jordanian rule, specifically to the Jewish sites, the synagogues, the graveyards. This systematic destruction is rarely, if ever, discussed by supporters of Palestinian sovereignty in the Old City of Jerusalem. It is never admitted, never even mentioned. And frankly, I suspect that this is because such a discussion would entail admitting that Jews actually have something to do with Jerusalem, something no Palestinian leadership has yet got around to saying.
I am talking about the near-total destruction of anything remotely Jewish-looking in the city, Sheema. The only reason that the Western Wall wasn’t destroyed was because of its close proximity and support of Al-Aqsa.
With this history, Jews aren’t likely to rush to handing this area back into another’s control.
Hi guys,
I think I’ll just have to politely agree to disagree with you all on most of the issues discussed here. I just don’t think you’re getting the points I’m trying to make, and a lot of the arguments can go both ways. I do however maintain my argument that the Jerusalem conflict goes way beyond mere religion, which is what makes it different from Mecca. (Having said that, I don’t particularly agree with Saudi control over Mecca either.)
I also feel that although your support of a democratic and just Israel is admirable, it doesn’t quite match up with the on-the-ground realities of life as a Palestinian in East Jerusalem - Muslim or Christian. And I’ll leave it at that.
Andrew - OK, if you’re talking about total destruction of Jewish sites, then I get the point you’re trying to make, and I do concede that you have a very valid argument. My original contention was that all sides do try to suppress evidence of the others’ presence, all are guilty of this to some extent or another. But in terms of Muslims pursuing this with more zeal and vengeance than anyone else - yeah you’re probably right about that, and I do agree with you.
The book I was talking about was ‘From the Holy Mountain’ by William Dalrymple, by the way.
Also, can anybody tell me exactly _why_ any part of Jerusalem should become part of an Arab state?
We keep hearing that Israel’s annexation of East-Jerusalem was illegal, but why would an Arab annexation not be?
In the partition plan, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city; Israel and Jordan each took a part of the city in a war that Jordan, but not Israel, started.
I can see that taking land in a war is illegal. I can also see that taking land in a war is legal. (I myself believe it is legal for the attacked party.)
But I cannot see why taking land in war is illegal for Israel but legal for other countries.
If the Arab state gets East-Jerusalem, Israel can keep the Golan using the same logic.
In fact, here’s a division I can live with. My Israeli friends might disagree:
The three Palestinian states (i.e. states located in the former territory of Palestine):
1. Transjordan: Everything east of the Jordan river.
2. Israel: Israel 1966 including West-Jerusalem plus the old city plus Mount Scopus and French Hill plus other Jewish neighbourhoods in East-Jerusalem plus Golan Heights plus legally bought and settled land in Judaea and Samaria.
3. PLO State: Gaza (if they can get it back from Hamas, Israel can help if required), Judaea and Samaria plus East-Jerusalem sans old city and sans Jewish neighbourhoods minus land bought by settlers plus whatever Arab border villages in 1966 Israel want to become part of an Arab state.
This is a compromise. International law dictates that land taken in a defensive war can be kept (that is what the founders of the UN did with the parts of Germany they took).
But what compromise will the Arabs offer?
Reparations for several wars should be in order. And compensation for the refugees, I guess. Plus an official apology for violating international law starting with originally attacking Israel.
My original contention was that all sides do try to suppress evidence of the others’ presence, all are guilty of this to some extent or another. But in terms of Muslims pursuing this with more zeal and vengeance than anyone else - yeah you’re probably right about that, and I do agree with you.
While I see some merit of this argument, I would hardly say that Israel is suppressing Muslim and Christian sites here in Israel. Not with the number of churches and mosques I see here on a daily basis alone, in Lod and in Ramle, all well maintained.
The book I was talking about was ‘From the Holy Mountain’ by William Dalrymple, by the way.
I think I read parts of that. If I remember correctly, Dalrymple claims in his book that Israel merely maintains a token of Christian sites for the purpose of tourism and the like, while at the same time erasing the Christian history in the region.
To that, I will answer that Israel and most Israeli Jews do not care about Christian history one way or the other. Israel doesn’t act overtly to maintain Christian sites, having a “don’t get involved” policy overall and leaving the matter up to the various churches, but at the same time the church properties enjoy rights that far exceed that of any other property owner in the country.
To be blunt, Church properties are protected by law, and they simply *can’t* become real-estate. By law, even the Church itself can’t sell Church property to become real-estate. I don’t think Israel supports many Christian sites financially, but it sure as hell doesn’t go out to destroy them.
But then, I seem to recall that William Dalrymple implied that Israel sought to create a state that was purely Jewish and to expell the various Christian populace of Israel, Jerusalem in particular. Again, with the sheer amount of Church proprety in the Old City of Jerusalem (I was there recently) and the way it has been maintained, that claim is something that i can only see as utterly false.
Oops - my comment about destruction of Jewish sites was supposed to be addressed to Roman, not Andrew. Sorry!
“it doesn’t quite match up with the on-the-ground realities of life as a Palestinian in East Jerusalem”
I have been to East-Jerusalem often. It looks dirty and poor but not more so than other cities I have seen.
Nobody has to live as a “Palestinian” in East Jerusalem. They can (and do) apply for Israeli citizenship. They do so more now because of the very real danger of losing their current status. If East-Jerusalem gets annexed to an Arab state, they would lose their privileges, obviously.
I am not aware of any attempts by Jews (or even Christians) of trying to suppress evidence of anybody’s history in Jerusalem. Do you have concrete examples?
I don’t understand the Arab claim to East-Jerusalem, given that they have consistently denied a Jewish claim to West-Jerusalem.
In fact the Arab position seems to be:
1. Taking land in a war is illegal.
2. Israel should be invaded and become part of an Arab state.
3. It is unacceptable for an Arab minority to live in a state with a Jewish majority.
4. It is acceptable for Jews to live in Europe.
5. The Arab refugee problem is a real tragedy and must be part of any solution to the Palestine conflict.
6. It is OK to talk about the Palestine conflict without mentioning the Jewish refugees from Arab countries.
7. Israeli attacks that kill civilians are war crimes.
8. Suicide attacks against shopping malls and kindergartens are a legitimate weapon in a war against an occupying power.
9. Palestinian Arabs must not be forced to live outside their ancient homeland’s 1948 borders because forcing someone out of their home country is a big crime indeed.
10. All Jews should be thrown into the sea or deported to Europe and America.
11. It is perfectly acceptable for Mecca to be ruled by one group only with no access allowed for members of other religions.
12. Israeli control of Jerusalem is a crime against the Palestinian people.
13. A Jewish state is a racist concept as it promotes one group at the expensive of another.
14. Jews living in Palestine are not Palestinians.
If you post these 14 statements in a pro-Arab Web forum without pairing them, you won’t see much disagreement. I would bet on it.
Also see
http://www.quizilla.com/users/Leauki/quizzes/Evil%20Neo-con%20Palestine%20Quiz/
and
http://forums.joeuser.com/?forumid=258&aid=81628
Hey Roman, thanks for the info - I am learning new things just from this discussion alone! Actually when I said “sites” I was thinking not just about actual buildings in existence but also the archaeological record…as a former archaeologist I find this particular aspect of Jerusalem politics very fascinating.
I am however willing to stand corrected if I can be proven wrong. I am getting a different story from my East Jerusalem friend (who does happen to be Christian), but I do concede that maybe some of it can be pegged down to general anti-Israeli sentiments. I really don’t know though. I WANT to believe that Israel is being fair in East Jerusalem, I really, really do.
Despite all that though, I do suspect that if the old city was turned over to Muslim hands then things would get a whole lot worse. I’d like to be proven wrong on that too, but I’m highly sceptical.
What do people think about the original plan of making it an international city? Was that ever feasible, and could it still be?
Oh, and Andrew (correctly, this time!) - it seems you were right about people in East Jerusalem wanting Israeli citizenship! I asked my friend about it and he says they’d rather take their chances with the Israeli government than with the PA!
Interestingly though, my friend is one of those who chooses to remain Palestinian in East Jerusalem rather than take Israeli citizenship. And Andrew, I still think that it’s impossible for us to understand just what hardships that kind of life entails if we’re not actually living it ourselves. Most of the problems my friend has talked to me about are the kind that are experienced, not seen.
“I am however willing to stand corrected if I can be proven wrong.”
No.
When you make a statement about someone, you’d better be able to prove that you are right. It’s not that we have to prove to you that your allegations are wrong.
I don’t see why the simple principle of in dubio pro reo should not apply to Jews or Israel.
“What do people think about the original plan of making it an international city? Was that ever feasible, and could it still be?”
No. It was never feasible. Ruling the city without allowing the citizens to rule themselves would be (correctly) perceived as foreign rule. And if the people were allowed to rule themselves, one half would join Israel and the other Jordan (or whichever Arab state is closest). And that would lead to war over the old city and mixed neighbourhoods (in the best case) and total annihilation of anyone and anything Jewish (in the worst case).
“Most of the problems my friend has talked to me about are the kind that are experienced, not seen.”
Many of the problems are imagined. I am not saying that Israel treats East-Jerusalem fairly. But the “problems” you are talking about here are the problems of any minority in any country plus the problem of having a wall around your city and being cut off from your relatives outside the city.
But guess what, the same thing happened to me when I grew up. I lived in occupied West-Berlin, with a wall around the city and cut off from relatives living outside the city (or in the eastern part of the city as the wall ran through the city as well). I had and have no citizenship of the occupying power and there never was such an offer either.
The only differences between Berlin and Jerusalem are those we made. We did not attack the occupation forces and Germany was good enough to grant German citizenship to all Germans living in occupied Berlin.
I guess had we attacked American troops (the occupiers) or Polish civilians (the people who took our land in the east), relations between Germany and Poland would be just as bad as between Arab countries and Israel.
(I assume I have the same right to “resist occupation” as an Arab?)
Andrew Brehm
(I wonder if the people living there WANT to live in am Arab state though. More and more of them request Israeli citizenship. What if they don’t want? Will the “Palestinian cause” be worth more than the Palestinian people?)
the thing is that the government should put an end to this … granting citizenship to arabs from east jerusalem defies the whole idea of partitioning the city … if we are ready to give up on east jerusalem, it’s for sure because we want to see less arabs here and not more of them …
“When you make a statement about someone, you’d better be able to prove that you are right. It’s not that we have to prove to you that your allegations are wrong.”
I did, but people disagreed with me, and like I said the points I’m trying to make are not being understood so we will just have to agree to disagree. I am just trying to think outside the box of what I’ve been taught/told/read and attempting to forge mutual understandings rather than descend into hostilities and blame games.
Andrew, I do respect the points you’re trying to make, but regardless of your experience in West-Berlin you are not an Arab living in East Jerusalem, so I don’t agree with your dismissal of my friend’s experience as “imagined”. I can assure you, the problems he faces are NOT those “of any minority of any country”.
Well, if nothing else this discussion has shown why it’s been so hard for both sides to understand each other and reach a compromise. Which is why Annapolis will fail.
Hey Roman, thanks for the info - I am learning new things just from this discussion alone! Actually when I said “sites” I was thinking not just about actual buildings in existence but also the archaeological record…as a former archaeologist I find this particular aspect of Jerusalem politics very fascinating.
Israeli laws on archaeological finds are near-draconian, Sheema, especially when it comes to Jerusalem. It is illegal to start any form of construction in the Old City or its near environs without archaeological preservation digs, for one. And when (not if, but very much *when*) they find anything, you can basically kiss the real-estate goodbye, because the archaeological society will then take that site as its little treasure for the next several years.
But actual development of a site is more a matter of money. You can’t destroy anything bigger than a very small burial cave (after it has been cleared of its contents, and even then it’s a big issue, only ever touched when it comes to road infrastructure: the rule is usually to fill the cave up and try to move the road plan), but you can easily bury it right back into the ground. The arhaeological society loses interest eventually, and at this point it becomes a matter of this or that municipal council, or a private organization, to develop the site. A private organization has it difficult due to having to go through the government bureaucracy system (which is horrible), but its doable.
To give you a bad example, I live in Lod. Lod has one of the largest and oldest who mosaics in the entire Middle-East, dating to the days of Greek rule. After the archaeological society spent a couple of years digging it up, publishing articles, and the usual oohs and aahs, the municipal council (run by corrupt idiots for the past 20 years) buried it back into the dirt. A large green trash bin marks the spot.
Now that the mayor has been removed from office, and a governmental council installed, I hear that the site is being dug up again. Time will tell if it will go beyond that. Hell, if Ramle (neighbor city) can turn a 500 year-old sewage system into a tourist attraction, then anything is possible around here.
What do people think about the original plan of making it an international city? Was that ever feasible, and could it still be?
Colonial pipe dream, I’m afraid. It was about as feasible as a UN peacekeeping force that can do its job. Andrew described what would have happened to the city quite accurately, in my opinion, in that it would have splintered without any regard for any ‘international’ rule.
*largest and oldest mosaics
‘who’ was irrelevant.
“Well, if nothing else this discussion has shown why it’s been so hard for both sides to understand each other and reach a compromise.”
That’s because a compromise between us and them would be three million dead Jews instead of six.
The Arabs could have had East-Jerusalem and the West-Bank in 1967, had they accepted the peace treaty offered by Israel.
Any problems that arise from their non-acceptance are not caused by Israel but by Arab imagination. Nobody forced East-Jerusalem to be part of Israel.
Israel was always willing to make peace. The “Arab initiative” of today is merely what Israel offered 40 years ago.
The most important issue for Israel, in fact the ONLY issue Israel has ever gone to war over, is the security of Jews (and Druze and Israeli Arabs) living in Israel. What “compromise” could be made?
Some security? Only half of them thrown into the sea? Only one third are pigs and dogs, the others will be second-class citizens paying a special tax and not allowed to vote? Those with odd house numbers can pray in their houses, those with even house numbers must shut their windows so nobody can see they are practicing Judaism? What’s a “compromise” on this issue?
And what would be the compromise for the question of whether it is legal to attack Israel? The Arab position is _yes_, the Israeli position is _no_. What would the compromise be? It is legal only in spring? You can attack Israel but are not allowed to murder more than 24.7% of the population (the Arabs demanded 50% but Israel has some very clever diplomats)? You can kill Jews if you do it in the name of Allah (who, after all, made them)?
What are you talking about when you speak of compromise?
Roman, thanks very much for the insights
Drima, sorry for hijacking your Annapolis thread!
As Roman mentioned before, I do not know Tel Aviv very well, but I do know Jerusalem and especially parts of East-Jerusalem.
I have been in parts of the east that my (Jewish) taxi driver was afraid to drive into, where my Arab driver had to get his car from Nablus in the morning, where I was surrounded by Arab youngsters while getting money from an ATM, and where the wailing wall was the closest place to go on a Shabbat evening.
I have stayed in a flat shared by a Jew and an Arab and studied, for a while, at Hebrew University on Mount Scopus (hated the place).
East-Jerusalem is, for me, after Haifa, Israel as I know it.
Tel Aviv was that strange, expensive place with all the European tourists (like myself).
Don’t forget that Tel-Aviv is also the city of crap cafè food, Andrew, made especially available for tourists.
I still can’t see what you guys have against Tel Aviv… best city I’ve ever lived in
Roman,
Indeed! Although they do have good pizzerias!
Raccoon,
I don’t know. Tel Aviv is cool, it really is. But it also seems unreal. It’s too Jewish to be Jewish, somehow. Tel Aviv is very Israeli, Jerusalem is more Jewish to the extreme. Haifa is a “normal” Jewish city in comparison.
I like Tel Aviv, but I don’t feel like it’s home. Although I would like calling it home. I think I have a very strange relationship with Tel Aviv. I adore the symbolism of the city, but I cannot help finding it “too Tel Aviv” to live there.
I think if Olmert can be a real peace man if he allowed the palestinians who were expelled from haifa,jaffa,ashkelon,jerusalem and other town and villages return to their home.
In exchange, palestianians give real securities to isreali
Chiba - yup. And right after that, lambs will start frolicking with lions and everyone will get busy turning swords into plowshares.
And when all THAT is done and over with (and we have lots of half-lion-half-sheep plowing land all over the place), Easter Bunny will take his rightful place as the Lord of Earth, aided by Santa Claus and the ghost of Don Quixote de la Mancha.
“In exchange, palestianians give real securities to isreali”
They could have done that in 1948 when the Arab countries attacked.
You will have to realise that the Jews stop trusting those who try to kill them.
A “Palestinian” guarantee was never worth anything, it is certainly not worth dying for.
(Also, keeping the “expelled” lie up doesn’t help. We are not going to believe it, no matter how often you repeat it.)
I like Sheema…don’t agree with her in several areas but she certainly has my respect as an intelligent and objective thinker…
Me…I would give all kinds of stuff to the Palestinians if I thought they could be trusted…but so far I think they have proven themselves as pretty dang violent (against us and their own dissenters), disorganized and oppressive. Hamas will accept nothing and same with Islamic Jihad.
Right of return is just a bargaining chip and no leader in his right mind believes that a million Palestinians are going to allowed into Israel proper…not any more than Iraq is going to give my wife the two homes and cash they stole from her parents in 1951…come on…dudes…really.
Jerusalem…never mentioned once in the Koran specifically and mentioned what, hundreds of times in the Old Testament alone? I do not think Arabs in general understand the powerful meaning Jerusalem has for even not very religious Jews. I would not give up an inch of the old city…not an inch. And Christians love of Jerusalem…eh…I don’t think that are all that hot on it…not really. Remember…Judaism is the only religion (that I know of anyhow) that is very specifically connected to a pretty specific (borders arguable) land. Relgiously speaking…ALL Jews will end up when lions lay down with lambs and we beat our F-17’s into ploughshares etc.
But many something good with come of this…but I doubt it…either nothing or another disaster like Gaza.
Raccoon-
I fucking hate Tel Aviv….they can give IT to the Palestinians in any deal…
Damn you guys surely argue.
Sheema, it must be nice having to dodge the arguments of five Jews all at the same time. People! Easy on the poor girl. She’s a friend.
As for me, I’ll be dropping my comments after I go through this discussion.
Sheema,
Let me make it easy on you. There is no peace without Justice and as long as there is occupation there will be no peace. Most of people who post here are hardcore zionists who will never admit that the Palestinians have any rights. The Israelis stole their lands and houses and approved aggression and occupation. Golda the world’s famous terrorist occupied 100 thousand christian Palestinian homes and murdered the families including children. They performed terrorism that is much worse than Hamas and Co.
I couldn’t stop laughing at the part when one commentator above (don’t care really about the name because they all sound the same) saying that Israelis doesn’t destroy Churchs in the occupied land. The nativity church was bombed and no church is allowed any construction or renovation in the occupied land. The graves of Christian Palestinians are digged and they are building on top of it new Jewish graves for the so called chosen people.
Palestinians who lived in Jerusalem way before 1948 (Chrisitans by the way) can’t be burried by their families because they were told that dirty Arabs are not fit to be burried in Jerusalem and they hold Israeli passports. People above can rant forever on the internet only people who lived the occupation are there to tell about the Israeli Nazis and their tanks.
Christian palestinians doesn’t trust Jews one bit and they would love to leave the dirty areas to the Jews to live in as in reality the displaced people of Palestine Christians and Muslims can’t have peace with occupiers and terrorists like Sharon, Olmert and Co. and before the occupation Palestinian lands were VERY clean only until the Jews stepped into it it really became dirty.
Google some Christian Palestinian priests cries for help from the Israeli occupation. Google and look up some picture of Palestine before 1948 and you will see a different Jerusalem.
Aurvoir et Merci the Zionists can start ranting again.
LOL - it certainly makes for a very interesting experience! Nah it’s all good - an opportunity to get Israeli/Jewish views and perspectives on the situation. This is probably one of the most interesting discussions I’ve had in a long, long time…just a bit sad that it had to happen in cyberspace!
Umm, my above comment was a response to Drima, btw.
Howie, you sound alright too.
Chiba, firstly “expelled” is a loaded die in this argument. Secondly, the Arab states kept the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of Palestinian Arab refugees in camps, and forced a special redifinition of ‘refugee’ for them. Look up the UN definition for a Palestinian refugee, and compare it to other refugees throughout the many wars in the past, say, 150 years. Since when is refugee status inherited? Since when does living in the British Mandate of Palestine for a few years (less than ten) while being of Arabic descent make you a Palestinian?
Now, there’s also a very important matter here: that of not allowing a huge population of people who hate my guts into my country. Chiba, do you honestly expect that if we allow millions of people who hate the very concept of us having a state will end well? Decades of growing up on hatred don’t just go away. Nor would I agree to becoming a minority in my own country, potentially losing my rights, property, and life. With the history around here, such fears are more than justified.
For Jews, Israel is a national home and refuge. I don’t see a Palestinian Muslim majority allowing that, not today and not ever most likely. You can’t demand two states for Palestinians as a compromise, Chiba, a Palestine and Palisrael that will reunite with their brothers over the border as soon as the Jews have been suppressed - one way or another. We either speak of two separate states, or we don’t have anything to speak of at all.
There is no trust, Chiba. And there will be no trust for decades, even centuries. The Arab states systematically failed in being a positive factor, instead opting for wars and sending terrorists. The Palestinian leadership has systematically failed to keep the “resistance” in check, and even helped it when it saw it as a good idea. And there is enough hatred being poured into young minds in the Middle-East to last a lifetime, especially apparent when even an Arab state that signed a peace agreement with Israel refuses to show Israeli films, arguing that it would be far too much like ‘normalization’. Trust? You want Israelis to trust, Chiba? To put our lives on the line? Then earn it. The Palestinians haven’t earned it, and yet we put ourselves at risk time and time again, giving their leaders more and more autonomy and power.
And where did that get us? Buses burning in the streets, with rescue volunteers collecting pieces of people. No, no right of return, Chiba. I can see where it will go all too well.
http://cheztwosret.blogspot.com/2006/09/christian-palestinians-leaving.html
http://cheztwosret.blogspot.com/2006/12/jewish-settlers-to-christians-in.html
http://cheztwosret.blogspot.com/2006/12/statement-by-patriarch-and-local-heads.html
Has to happen somewhere, Sheema, and without other means to meet we might as well use what we have.
And a merry hello to you, too, Twosret! I see that your blind hatred is alive as ever. Keep it going, it sure ferments nicely.
oh Roman I love you too hun….as if you have love in your heart
your heart must be joyful watching the Palestinian children living in dark and without gas or food.
“And Christians love of Jerusalem…eh…I don’t think that are all that hot on it…not really.”
LOL! no Christians are never keen about Jesus and the holy sites in Jerusalem nope never LOL!
We are not as hot as Jews for sure
Drima babe
your site became like SM for some reason what are you doing?
I had a good laugh reading this thread though, I haven’t read any blogs for the longest time but tonight I’m entertained for real.
And this is a special song to my old friend Raccoon in regards to his comment about the Easter Bunnies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpkq5hw0hOI
Good Night
Ah geez…Twoset is back and obviously still off her Zyprexa…
Golda murdering innocent little Christian Palestinian babies…gotta love that one…
Oh Sheema…it is true…Golda did it and Muslim ones two and we made matzah from their blood and it was yummy yummy yum!!
There is plenty of love in my heart, Twosret, just that none of it is for you in particular. For *you*, I have only disdain.
If churches can’t be kept up, then the churches I pass by daily must be a mirage, not to mention the beautiful churches Jerusalem, in particular the domes of the Russian Orthodox churches, and the interesting design of the Ethiopian Orthodox church. If graveyards are desecrated, then the graveyard right next to my neighborhood is a fake Zionist conspiracy. And I’m sure that the terrorists who barricaded themselves in the Church of Nativity back during the Intifada are not to blame in your eyes, because they are the Resistance.
Please, just leave. I thought you were planning to do just that after your first reply here.
Howie -
Christians seem pretty keen on Jerusalem. You should see the pilgrims in the Old City - they all appear to be quite extatic.
Of course, unlike for Jews, Jerusalem is not the center of their religion… but it’s still very important to them.
And as for Tel Aviv - I just don’t get it. What’s there not to like about it?
The matzah was great… which Christians you prefer for your matzah blood? Personally, I find Ethiopian Orthodox children’s blood to be the best.
I love it when some Nazi tells me what, a “Zionist”, believe.
If they are so interested in our thoughts, why do they have to make them up? They could ask.
I love it when some Nazi tells me what I, a “Zionist”, believe.
If they are so interested in our thoughts, why do they have to make them up? They could ask.
“Christians seem pretty keen on Jerusalem. You should see the pilgrims in the Old City - they all appear to be quite extatic.”
I suggest we give Bethlehem to a Christian state or make it one.
A small one.
Israel will be responsible for defending it. (And boy will it need defence!)
I guess we have to wait a while, before there is peace in the Middle East. Until then I´m glad to see all parts engaged in a constructive dialogue
I suggest the conference in Annapolis start with a Quran reading:
“To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: ‘Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.’ ‘You know full well,’ he [Moses] replied, ‘that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.’”
“Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: ‘Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel].”
“We [Allah] have revealed the Qur’an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning.”
[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
“And [remember] when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.’” [Qur'an 5:20-21]
“I´m glad to see all parts engaged in a constructive dialogue”
I don’t see Hamas, Hizbullah, and Iran engaged in a constructire dialogue at all.
Whether the Saudis are there for a constructive dialogue at all, we will see. So far we have only learned that they won’t touch Jews at the conference. (If only that was a general attitude in the middle east when it comes to war!)
I´m glad to see all parts engaged in a constructive dialogue. /sarcasm off
Peter,
There is no need for sarcasm. For one thing, it’s simply not true that ALL parties refuse to talk. Israel has proposed peace ever since it was founded.
I also believe that Abbas himself genuinely wants to talk and come to some sort of arrangement (that would keep him in power with the help of Israel but without every Arab hating him).
Syria probably just wants something for nothing and permission to attack Israel if they don’t get it.
And Saudi Arabia wants to fell important. The “kingdom” watching over everybody else…
“The matzah was great… which Christians you prefer for your matzah blood? Personally, I find Ethiopian Orthodox children’s blood to be the best.”
Howie and Raccoon HAHAHAHHAHAAA I can’t stop laughing it is so funny….great sense of humor guys you crack me up you little nazi zionists
Roman,
I hit a nerve don’t I, sorry to intrude on the zionist discussion on this board I know you don’t like what you read from me but you don’t have to hate me really just accept facts and live with them.
Andrew,
So the main problem now is the religion WOW what a prespective I thought this whole deal was about stolen land oops! I forgot the zionists wanted to justify their occupation for religious purposes.
“the terrorists who barricaded themselves in the Church of Nativity back during the Intifada are not to blame in your eyes, because they are the Resistance.”
Those terrorists you referred to were protected by the priests in the nativity church, the priests went out to ask the army to stop bombing the nativity church because those kids were running away from the brutal Israeli soldiers.
Your story is all messed up like your media and what they lead you to believe. You totally ignore what every priest in the occupied land is saying because it is not in your best interest.
oh well…typical zionist terrorist thoughts.
“I forgot the zionists wanted to justify their occupation for religious purposes.”
Actually, it is totally and only about life.
The Jews want to live.
Let them live and they won’t fight.
“about stolen land”
Yeah. When Jews buy land it is “stolen” land. We know that.
“those kids were running away from the brutal Israeli soldiers.”
Oh the poor poor poor terrorists. Let’s hear it for the poor terrorists.
…
Well, maybe not.
Two, your facts have as much to do with reality as what electronicintifada or Angry Arab say, as in purely unrelated other than by hatred.
And the only nerve you hit had to do with flashbacks of hearing the exact same angry rants from you before, time and time again. They’re pointless angry drivel, Two, and are quite insane at times.
And Two… Since when do active Tanzim members, who just happened to shoot up a few cars and neighborhoods, count as ‘kids’? Nevermind, you just proved my claim regarding the ‘Resistance’ that can do no wrong in your eyes.
Raccoon…
Name me something to LIKE about Tel Aviv…and I lived in Jerusalem and yes you get some Chirstian estactics. I have also grown up in the goyish USA and have been with Christians all my life. The average Joe Christian has modest to minimal emotion about Jerusalem…We Yids…it is in our prayer books, holy books, etc etc etc. It ain’t the same thang at all. I think Muslims primarily get real excited about it when we Jews are in the mix…
Anyhow…tell me. It is very difficult to get the blood of Christians and Muslims here in the USA lately. I don’t care for Hindu and the Rostatorian blood gets me all stoned.
Any idea where I can bomb some churches and get some good matzah blood? Do you think you could talk to some of Golda’s relatives? Do you think they might have some Palestianian children blood stored away? I hear they keep it wrapped up in maps that show Israel’s borders stretching from the Meditarean to the Euphrates.
By the way…in terms of church lovers…where did those Palestinian terrorist hostage takers hang out in Bethlehem a few years ago?
I like Hamas, I really do:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195546761008&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
They are a refreshingly honest bunch among the many groups who pursue the same goal.
“Palestine is Arab Islamic land, from the river to the sea, including Jerusalem… there is no room in it for the Jews.”
Now, THAT is a position I can accept as equally honest and logical as my position that there is room everywhere for Jews.
But this brings us back to the question about the compromise.
Given that there are about six million Jews in that land (including all the Jews that were already removed from the other “Islamic” countries), and given that the majority of Palestinian Arabs supports Hamas (and why not, if you like misery), what would be the compromise?
Three million dead Jews?
(Problem is, I can almost imagine Olmert saying yes to such a compromise.)
There are four people in this thread that must have a lot of time on their hands.
As a Nubian from Wadi Halfa and born in Sudan, i couldn’t care less about the Palestinian cause. For too long our region has been dragged into the dramas of the Arab world and the Palestinians, who even the Arabs are getting fed up with. As a non-Arab minority i feel an affinity to Israeli Jews as virtually the only example of a non-Arab and non-Muslim minority to establish its own state and take charge of its own destiny without answering to outdated notions of Ahl Al-Dhimma that is often covered up in the language of “We were all brethren and we all lived in peace until the coming of Zionism”. In any case, none of the Arab states gives a hoot about Sudan or the suffering of millions of Sudanese or the murder of 2 million South Sudanese and the brutality of the Islamo-Fascist regime in Khartoum or the thousands who have persihed in Darfur. They’re pathologically obssessed with Israel as the root of all evil and suffering because they have utterly failed as nation-states and need a convenient scapegoat. And its even sadder that many Sudanese have fallen into this failed pan-arab cause rather than look to their own keep and their own countrymen, with many aspiring to be “accepted” as “Arabs” in the process by the rest of the Arab world.
Nor Ikka Nahja (God bless)
“As a Nubian from Wadi Halfa and born in Sudan”
Beyram,
May everything be well for Nubia in the future. You guys really didn’t deserve the government in Khartoum. You deserve better.
Thanks for the wishes Andrew! The struggle to maintain our ancient language, culture and traditions continues as both the Egyptian and Sudanese governments deal our lands and homes like poker chips. Egypt has always had its eyes on the resources of Sudan given that Egypt is virtually a desert and depends on the Nile water for life! And that is why that in addition to its legal share of the Nile’s water, Egypt is swallowing up a huge chunk of Sudan’s own share. The Sudanese government of Aboud sold our lands for nothing so that Nasser, the oh-so-great Pan-Arab nationalist could build the Aswan dam (after expelling us of course) all in the name of the “collective good”. In the process, they inundated thousands of years worth of civilization, temples, artifacts and probably a whole lot that wasn’t even uncovered yet. And today it continues with the Kajbar Dam Project. So its hard to watch as our people leave their ancestral homes to Khartoum where they are increasingly not passing on our language to the new generation. Despite this, we manage to maintain a strong and distinct communal identity. Who knows how long its gonna last. That is why i see it as crucial for minorities in the Middle-east, North Africa and Arab world (Copts, Berbers, Nubians, Israeli Jews, Assyrians etc) to forge strong links and relations in the face of the scourge that is Pan-Arabism. Personally, i proudly proclaim my support and admiration for Israel. Its not perfect but really which country is?
Good luck to you guys, Beyram. I think that with the way things are going, you’ll need it, as your central government doesn’t much bother with your very existence. At the current juncture, the only other minority in our environs that has a shot at independent life and rule, along with self-assured security, are the Kurds. Time will tell if I’m right on that count, and if Turkey doesn’t mess it all up.
As I see it, Nubians represent one of the most ancient and fascinating nations of Africa, and certainly worthy of much better than what you have now.
“As a Nubian from Wadi Halfa and born in Sudan, i couldn’t care less about the Palestinian cause”
I honestly don’t know how this is relevant to the topic posted by Drima. The thread is about the Palestinians and Israelis.
“For too long our region has been dragged into the dramas of the Arab world and the Palestinians, who even the Arabs are getting fed up with.”
Our region was not dragged, it was invaded and many wars with Israel that carries Nuclear weapons is a threat to most Arabs. On many occasions we saw the real people in many countries out in the streets protesting the aggression of the Israelis…I would understand if you think that it is a dead end or there is no hope for peace but to generalize in your statement and say Arabs are fed up I have to disagree with you.
Now you sound very bitter about Arab nations and praising Israel. What you are praising is invasion, occupation, and terrorism. The fact that you are a minority like Copts in Egypt, Indian Americans in the United States or even berber in Morocco doesn’t mean that you project your anger at Arab leaders on the occupies Palestinians.
I haven’t seen anyone in Egypt have hate towards Nubian,we always thought of Nubians as the kindest people and their image to us Egypt are always of dignity (at least in the community I lived with in Cairo)
As for the Sudanese people the fact is that the US the biggest player doesn’t give a damn about them. They are like the people of New Orleans who are Americans when they got hit by hurricane Katrina, they are left till now without homes after two years of the disaster.
Many people are in disagreement with many leaders like Nasser and Bush etc… but that doesn’t justify the brutual killing of Palestinians and their children. Someone like you who might have suffered of occupation of the nile as you claim by Egyptians should feel for the Palestinians more than any average Egyptian.
May be you need to ask the zionist on this board How is Israel supporting Sudan? Isn’t your beloved admired Israel a neighbor of Sudan too? Israel with it’s few million citizens gets more aid than Egypt with it’s almost 80 million how much did Israel give to Sudan and Nubians?
I wish your Nubian people well as I know nothing but good things about them, but I hope your resentment towards your events won’t lead you to extremism that would justify occupation and killin g for the sake of culture and language.
Buy a history book, Twosret.
Or better, dress up as a Jew and walk through an Arab street.
Howie -
TA is the cultural center of Israel, mate - which makes it about saturated with culture as the Louvre. It’s the beating, living heart of Israel (with Jerusalem being our tortured soul). It is the only place in the world I’ve lived in (outside Tokyo) where I know I can always hang out with my mates in a variety of avenues at any time of day and night. It is also the most central place in Israel, I reckon, as far as jobs go. And lots of it was built by my family, populated by my wife’s family and loved by both.
About blood of Christian babies for you matzah: please apply to your nearest Elders of Zion Amenities Officer. They usually can sort you out
Beyram - get the word out, bro. Most people never heard of the Nubian civilization (hell, I only got to hear about it from Drima) or its plight. It would be a horrible loss for the Nubian civilization to go the way of the Assyrians. Good luck.
Oh, and in general about Twosret… she is always like this when she forgets her medication. My suggestion is to ignore her.
“Buy a history book, Twosret.
Or better, dress up as a Jew and walk through an Arab street.”
You are so insecure that you have to attack every comment I write. This just goes to show how confident you are in your views.
As for the Himar Raccoon grow up my dear I thought you will learn from your mistakes and be civilized one day. Obviously not
Now Abbas and his merry band of terrorists are reiterating their statement that they’ll never recognize Israel.
This whole dratt al-balat conference is a sham and every participant (and most non-participants) knows it. Hunam stupidity truly knows no limits.
“Now Abbas and his merry band of terrorists are reiterating their statement that they’ll never recognize Israel.”
So what exactly are they in Annapolis to talk about? I roadmap for the extermination of the Jews?
Or will “Palestine” be the only country in the region that will let the Jews live within its borders? I somehow doubt that “Palestine” will be more tolerant (i.e. normal) than Egypt or Iraq. It doesn’t look that way now and it didn’t look that way when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was in Berlin for the first roadmap.
Let’s look forward to the second roadmap and how to survive it!
“Yet another conference of dratt al-balat (I am sure Nizo will forgive me for occupying this saying”
Your occupation of my saying will cost you and your gaggle of zionists dearly. My pen is drawn oh Raccoon…
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