Mohammed the Teddy Bear (Update III)
Posted on November 27, 2007
Filed Under Sudan, Religion, CrUSAde, WTFish?, Retards, Islam, Culture, Sudanese, Intoxication, UK |
… puts us in the headlines again and boosts our supreme notoriety. Spare some time and read the story here.
A British schoolteacher has been arrested in Sudan accused of insulting Islam’s Prophet, after she allowed her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammad… the charge could lead to six months in jail, 40 lashes or a fine.
The incident is getting major coverage in the blogosphere and I find myself not knowing whether to laugh or cry. Check out the results in Google Blog Search and Technorati for the keywords “teddy bear sudan”. There are hundreds!
The whole thing is just so unbelievably pathetic. Clearly it’s an honest and innocent mistake. Oh no, how stupid can I be, she’s a white British infidel so it must be a freaking Zionist CrUSAde and Jewish conspiracy. Right? Raaaight!
I don’t think she’ll get lashed or imprisoned. I believe (hope?) she’ll get away with paying a fine - a fine which she doesn’t deserve to pay in my opinion.
Unity School where Ms Gibbons teaches is one of the most prominent international schools in Khartoum. Relatives and many friends of mine studied there. The school has a British curriculum and those who graduate receive an O’Levels certificate.
This isn’t the first time the school finds itself in the midst of a controversy, albeit one surely not as big as this. Back in the 90’s when beloved al-Turabi was still in power and his version of Sharia was being shoved down our throats, the school came under pressure to change the girl’s uniform. Many Islamists hated the fact that girls wore skirts and mixed with boys. Now we have this. And meanwhile, British Keefieboy is confused:
why is it ok for many thousands of men, some of whom have IQs appoaching zero, to be named after him?
Approaching zero indeed. 
How is an educated non-Muslim supposed to know what the rules are (answer to last question: you’re not - the rules are made up as we go along). And why is everyone assuming that the bear is named after the Prophet - I believe the caretaker at that school is called Muhammed and everyone really likes him.
Once more, Islamic hardliners are making their religion look ridiculous. How sad.
Make that depressing!
Takhalllllllluf 3ajeeeeeeb ya nas!!
UPDATE I: The Teddy Bear “Crisis” Gets More Attention
Oh dear, it just hit CNN! I watched it five minutes ago. The British Prime Minister commented on the incident and already high ranking British government officials are engaging Sudanese ones in the… ah so very, very important matter.
Freelance journalist Rob Crilly is reporting from Khartoum with a post on his blog, followed by an article in Times Online elaborating the updates.
I hate the stupidity of this. More attention will hopefully mean the release of Ms Gibbons without getting jailed or lashed so bring it please! Of course we may fully expect to see local hardliners politicizing the incident for their own advantage and trying to mobilize anger with it which shall complicate matters further. They’ll squeeze its juices until the last drop. Fingers crossed.
At the moment, some pro-government newspapers are making it seem that the teacher named the teddy bear Muhammad on her own and on purpose. Here are posts from my fellow annoyed Sudanese bloggers on the issue:
The school has been shut down until January for fear of reprisals. Wow, surprise of the century!
UPDATE II: The Teddy Bear “Crisis” Continues - Teacher Sentenced To 15 Days In Jail Followed By Deportation
I can’t believe the ridiculous amount of attention this is getting. I guess it happens when we have depressingly pathetic incidents like this. People! We should be talking about Darfur instead! But… it looks like we won’t. So here I go, while doing my best not to fill up this post update with profanities.
Ms Gibbons will unfortunately be spending the next two weeks in a tiny room after which she will head back home to her country. The bright side? At least she’s not getting lashed 40 times. At the start I was honestly expecting she’ll get away with a fine but when the noisy hardliners got louder and began making their usual super sensible statements, I got skeptical.
I can’t really say I’m surprised over how this turned out. These people live in a world of conspiracy theories where everything a Westerner does might be a plot against Islam.
However, influential Muslim hard-liners sought to raise outrage over the case. The semi-official Assembly of the Ulemas, or Islamic clerics, said Wednesday that Gibbon’s action was “another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam.”
They’re so bored out of their minds, they need to imagine themselves as characters in a video game. This is entertainment to them. They thrive on this. And you know what? I say Islam’s biggest enemy is in fact people like them.
Imams are going to order people to demonstrate after Friday prayers today.
Wednesday night, a pickup truck drove through Khartoum calling for Sudanese to hold protests after Muslim prayers Friday.
But Maj. Gen. Abdeen al-Tahir of the Khartoum police, vowed security would prevent any protests. “Nothing will happen tomorrow,” he said.
Good luck Mr. Abdeen. It should be fun. Damn, I’m so jealous, I wish I could join them. There will be shouting, and screaming, and jumping, and a big crowd of furious people. Seriously, what’s there not to like? The only thing missing is a heavy metal band. Now that would be cool. We’ll make a mosh pit, head bang together and proclaim “down with the infidel teacher”. Oh and then we’ll start burning some American flags! Yaaay!
Al-Bashir’s NCP doesn’t want this to escalate. Hardliners could very well inflame strong sentiments against Westerners in the city which will obviously be bad, hence the wonderful “balancing act”. Bleh. And some people wonder why I adore cute Islamists.
A teddy bear named Muhammad? Oh, very, very insulting. An Islamic media company releasing a DVD featuring a stuffed toy named Adam? Let’s just ignore it. Lovely butchers like him YES! Oh yeah, now THAT’S what I’m talking about. No problem at all. None whatsoever.
Oh and for all you Brits putting the blame on her, SHAME ON YOU! As for the Commenters, tone down your derogatory language. Alright?
UPDATE III: Demonstrators Call For Teacher’s Execution.
Maj. Gen. Abdeen al-Tahir of the Khartoum police failed. There were angry protests. No surprise there really.
KHARTOUM, Sudan - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear “Muhammad.”
… They massed in central Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed, although they did not attempt to stop the rally.
I gotta tell you, the mixture of religious dogmatic views and culture of honor displayed in this case is appalling.
… The women’s prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the site, as is the Unity High School where she taught, which is under heavy security protection.
I just got off the phone a while ago. A close friend of mine has younger siblings who study in Unity High School where Ms Gibbons taught. Some people did in fact want to burn down the school.
The “crisis” continues.
Comments
150 Responses to “Mohammed the Teddy Bear (Update III)”
Thanks for the mention! Still reeling…
Why is the word ‘unity’ so popular in Sudan? Unity schools, governments and counties. Maybe if we say it enough it will happen!
“And why is everyone assuming that the bear is named after the Prophet”
There are people who see a dog with a beard and turban and think “dog with a beard and turban”.
And then there are people who see a dog with a beard and turban and think “our prophet”.
I guess the Teddy is an imrovement.
My Teddy penguin is named “Usual Suspect”.
Why are Muslims so bloody uptight and irrational?
I say this as a Muslim, because this is bloody ridiculous and cannot have any excuses whatsoever.
WATCH YOUR MOUTH DANIAL!!! ISRAELIS ARE OCCUPYING PALESTINE!!!
Boohoo. Sigh! We’re stuck in a bubble of false pride and self-righteousness.
*bangs head at desk*
Bang it harder Halalhippe, I can’t hear you.
As ridiculous as the matter may sound to Britons and also to me, we have to put the matter into perspective. As someone who has lived in several countries and travelled widely for business, this is not be a light matter.
Personally, I think immigrants/foreigners should respect the culture of their hosts. You don’t have to agree to their beliefs. But you have to show some respect. I think the lady owes the people of Sudan an apology. As stupid as the matter may sound, it is all about perception.
I hope I have communicated my point clearly. If you go to a foreign country, learn/understand/respect their culture.
PS. I’m no supporter of the Sudanese govt
PSS. Same reply posted in Rob Crilly’s blog
Ssembonge, the kids named the teddy bear themselves!
as a muslim and as a teacher, I am furious about this. Its idiocy at its highest peak. Halalhippie please move over because I need to bang my head too. muslims all over the world need to stand up and say this is bull****. Because it is. SHe has committed no crime against our prophet but these prosecutors are committing a crime against all islam if they follow through with this.
Daniel,
You completely missed my point.
Read my reply again.
Ssembonge, I know what you’re trying to say but you do understand that this was just an honest and innocent mistake right?
“I think the lady owes the people of Sudan an apology.”
I don’t think she owes “the people of Sudan” an apology simply because I don’t believe that the majority of Sudanese are offended or should even be offended by this.
The hardliners are blowing the incident out of proportion, politicizing it, and making it seem like she did this purposely.
It’s all bloody ridiculous. I think the authorities owe her an apology instead.
interesting…apologies for naming a teddy bear mohammed but none for the people of Darfur.
Drima: I guess I’ll move to the Sudan..I mean if the biggest problem there is a poorly named teddy bear it must indeed be a paradise
sorry my comment may have been a bit vague what I meant to say is that there are demands of apology over a teddy bear but not over the terror committed in Darfur. I find it hard to wrap my mind around that.
Ssembonge, you have missed the point here in that your offer lets a group of loud fanatics take over the discourse in Sudan, and represent the entire Muslim population there. It is indeed about perception, and you encourage the perception that she did something wrong because she is an evil colonial infidel. Oh yes, that perception is bound to improve matters, should it spread further.
This whole matter is pathetic, by the way. If the name is so tied to the prophet, then why is it allowed to name people after him? People who *will* commit sins, and may cause such a dishonor to the name that it may become associated with a murderer, or a thief, rather than a prophet? Now compare this to a fluffy teddy bear.
Frankly, had she herself named the bear Mohammed without thinking of it too much, she *may* have had something to apologize for. *that* would have been an honest mistake. But as matters stand it wasn’t her who made the mistake, but rather the people who arrested her, and plan to punish her, for the name the Muslim kids gave to their teddy. These kids are an indicator of their culture, wouldn’t you say? Or did the evil colonial teacher brainwash them? *eyeroll*
I could almost, ALMOST, accept this outrage and any demonstrations against this woman if I had ever seen outrage and mass demonstrations against murderers who kill in the name of ‘Islam’ Some of these killers even carry the same name as the bear.
There are many hundreds of thousands of Muslim people live and work in the United Kingdom maybe in excess of one million and they all enjoy freedom of speech, freedom of expression and respect. They are permitted to enjoy all the privileges of living in a cultured society where religious tolerance is taught and encouraged throughout society.
We do not give offensive labels [like infidel] to other religions and try to live side by side with other believers in our towns and villages.
I have read some admirable and tolerant comments on this page and the person that commented that this kind of action does not reflect very well on Muslims is quite right.
AD [UK]
BBC news has just run a piece suggesting that Sudanese ambassador will be summoned to Foreign Office tomorrow and told to leave and that UK foreign aid to Sudan will be halted. You can argue whether or not this is an appropriate response to the arrest of this woman on trumped up charges, but what I don’t understand is why the UK has diplomatic relations and is giving aid to Sudan in the first place. If it’s right to break of relations with Zimbabwe because the government there is trying to reduce its population by starving the ones who don’t support Mugabe, why are we giving recognition and aid to a government that is actively trying to slaughter a significant proportion of its population?
Call me old fashioned, but I am not sure how you square that with the so called New Labour ethical foreign policy.
It’s going to escalate further. Many Imams have ordered people to go for angry demonstrations tomorrow after Friday prayers.
Wonderful!
That sounds bad, Drima. I can’t see anything positive coming out of that kind of sermon.
Charlie -
I doubt that the Terrorist Protectorate of England (formerly known as the United Kingdom or Great Britain - nothing great or united about it now) will actually do anything positive. They’ll probably apologize profusely, cancel Christmass, strip the poor teacher of her citizenship and pay “reparitions” to the Sudanese government.
Mohammed is a twat! But wait, he can’t be, he doesn’t exist you fools!!! What a sorry state the world has come to when people are still manipulated by the myth of religion. Shame on you all, have some respect for your existence - we are not special, we have evolved. Death to mohammed and his idoit followers!!!
sad sad sad sad sad…what is the world coming to? That poor teacher really deserves better than to be subjected to ignorant and pathetic people. and again if you haven’t got the message - mohammed does not exist, if he did he’d be a twat!
Let the UK foreign secretary make a deal with the Sudanese government. If you stop killing Darfuris we will stop naming our teddy bears after your prophet AND you can give Gordon Brown 10 lashes if you return all of the UK’s economic aid as we need it to help repatriate the Sudanese Embassy Staff.
IM, yes, all hail enlightened atheism! Oh, wait… I had that in the Soviet Union, and it sucked ass.
Intolerant idiot atheists amuse me to no end in their belief that they are somehow better than religious fanatics. You’re not, mate, you’re just a lot more arrogant.
I am going to change my name. What an insult to the prophet, every ignorant cruel criminal is named Mohamed in Islamic countries.Rape and killing by MUSLIM MILITANTS is a pillar of islam in Sudan. A teacher who didn’t know that Islam can be at very big risk by naming a teddy Mohamed is going to be punished. A woman 54 year old. Of course Islam taught us to punish women, rape them and then jail them with lashes along with their lawyers because they allowed us to rape them. Also when the world gets upset we say they confessed to affair while in custody.A 19 year old CHILD in Saudi jail confessed.We the named Mohameds have appointed ourselves as Allah to judge these non Mohamed actions and What a perfect faith we have MADE? I am proud to be a Muslim named Mohamed (until i change my name) would Allah be appropriate this time? (Astagfirullah!)
You’re famous! BBC: Bloggers condemn TeddyGate
Take the “ham” out of Mohammed, surely this is an insult too
Doh ! It’s his name, what a quandary, his own name has a pig reference in it
Ban the name ! C’mon hardline clerics, you try and ban everything else !
I think this is a racist thing against the Brittish how dare sudan lock up a woman why dont the sudan goverment punish the children who named the Teddy..Bloody stupid ive just renamed my dog mahamid..are you going to punish me..i spit on sudan and burn the flag i am ashamed of my people for going this far..
“Intolerant idiot atheists amuse me to no end in their belief that they are somehow better than religious fanatics. You’re not, mate, you’re just a lot more arrogant.”
Indeed.
Just a few weeks ago a colleague shows me a video of a “comedian” who asked the religious to leave the rest of the world alone (and he showed a picture of an orthodox Jew as a typical violent fanatic). He said he didn’t want to offend me but thought I might find it funny.
I wasn’t offended but I didn’t get the joke. In my experience the worst violence is from atheists and pseudo-Muslims. Hitler and Stalin were not Christians, the PLO is secular.
Perhaps it is time that the atheists and the heretics of all religions leave us religious people alone?
(It’s not fair because atheists are not all like Stalin, obviously.)
I hope britain Demands gibbons release this is Outrages to imprison gibbons is politically wrong deport her yes put her in prison now who is being racist..you got my email..i am sorry this woman guilty or inocent deserves a fair trial..with by a outside judge from another country,, this woman has beenfound guilty before it went to court. i might follow in raheed’s steps and rename my cuddley cat or my online pet..Religeon of any sort catholic prodistant or islam muslim whats there problems. our goverment should get of their backsides and DEMAND THE RELEASE OF THIS WOMAN
The BBC reports: “Prosecutor general Salah Eddin Abu Zaid had said Mrs Gibbons could expect a ’swift and fair trial’.”
Swift and fair trial? That’s the oxymoron of the year. Mohammed (or whichever spelling of the name is officially preferred this week) turns in his grave.
How ironic it is that during Europe’s Dark Ages some knowledge-hungry Muslims were rediscovering the writings of the ancient Greek scholars. Nowadays the so-called west is gradually becoming enlightened while in Sudan and some other benighted places a few superannuated boys are allowed by decent but cowed citizens to do the most ungodly things to innocent people in the name of those boys’ god.
First things first. This “teacher” is clearly not right in the head. You only have to look at her photo to see it.
That said, just as we expect visitors to our country to abide by our laws and customs, so too do the Sudanese have the right to ask the same of their visitors. So if she has to be flogged, so be it.
In any case one of her students has admitted that the name was his choice and he is the guilty party. So perhaps he should be punished also or instead. But either way, someone should fry for this crime.
Insulting but you have to laugh
http://www.explicitzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11012
Congratulations to the religious nuts for reinforcing the impression that Islam is intolerant, hypocritical and bigotted. Presumably they are in the pay of the CIA/MI5? Yes, I’m being sarcastic!
The person involved is a westerner, a woman and an infidel, so she presses all the buttons for the ignorant in Islam, who I’d like to think are in the minority but sadly don’t see much evidence of it. You good ones need to speak out A LOT more IMHO. You don’t need to worry about Western/Israeli plots, the nuts are your worst enemies.
How much aid does the UK give to Sudan? Add “ungrateful” to intolerant, hypocritical and bigotted?
I feel really sorry for the decent, tolerant Muslims in the world whose reputation is damaged by these idiots.
“That said, just as we expect visitors to our country to abide by our laws and customs”
We do? So why do we do all that multi-cultural stuff?
“so too do the Sudanese have the right to ask the same of their visitors. So if she has to be flogged, so be it.”
Which particular Sudanese law prohibits the Muhammed-naming of Teddy bears?
Thanks, Irshad (November 29th, 2007 8:47 pm). And A A Milne’s universally revered bear of very little brain is wiser than those timewarped Dark Ages boys in Sudan who are in the habit of dishing out ad-hoc injustices to blameless people.
Calling Tardis!
Dear Imaginary Mohammed, you make this start to your post of “November 29th, 2007 5:01 pm”:
“Mohammed is a twat! But wait, he can’t be, he doesn’t exist you fools!!!”
That’s right. His body can be said to exist no more than does the body of _anyone_ who’s died and hasn’t been cremated.
Many of us are wondering what you’re trying to say. Perhaps you’re confusing Mohhamed with Allah.
What a great advert for promoting the benefits of Islam.
I’m surprised we haven’t yet seen a burning effigy of the teacher, the union jack and the queen outside the police station!!!!!
Why is it that human muslim males can be privileged with the Mohammed? I should think that they would be the biggest insult to the name!
(Oops. Here correcting my typo of a few minutes ago—but what’s in a name?)
Dear Imaginary Mohammed, you make this start to your post of “November 29th, 2007 5:01 pm”:
“Mohammed is a twat! But wait, he can’t be, he doesn’t exist you fools!!!”
That’s right. His body can be said to exist no more than does the body of _anyone_ who’s died and hasn’t been cremated.
Many of us are wondering what you’re trying to say. Perhaps you’re confusing Mohammed with Allah.
People need to understand, that if you work or visit an Islamic controlled country, you’re stepping back in time 500 years, and you take a big risk working alongside what will be a babaric culture in modern day terms. Islam is becoming a joke to itself.
Just the small point that Islam believes that people in the UK think “infidel” maybe insulting is laughable. This may have been true in 1486, but it’s of little or no significance in 2007 to nearly every educated person in the UK, most of whom are not practising christians anyway.
But what a shame, that many of the UK population will just have it confirmed that when we think Islam, we will think barbaric, though some left wing nutters will tell us that hanging teenage girls for being raped, or stoneing women for adultary is normal for Islam, for the rest of the world it’s not.
In the past the word Sudan was associated with the need to give to charity. I think that will fall dramatically in the future, and Sudan has now definately helped associated the word “Islam” with the word “stupidity”.
What is really sad is this incident has got more media attention than the Darfur genocide has in the last 3 years.
I agree with george from above and would like to add the following.
If the west ignores the plight of muslims, the west is accused of racism.
If the west gets involved with muslims, the west gets accused of corrupting islamic values(which are what exactly??)
Conclusion: no matter what the “infidel” does, they will be hated by many in the islamic world. More calls for jihad will ensue. Islam is what Islam does.
Once more, Islamic hard-liners are making their religion look ridiculous. what are these people thinking? Oh! that’s right put the blame on the USA. The Moral Majority of Muslims should start standing up to the extreme and put their own people in check.
C’mon Gordon,do a Blair. Invade Sudan.
I am going to name my next turd mohammed. Its about the same respect I have for these stone age idiots.
Stories like this make me wonder if any type of real peace between the West and Islam is achievable. Be it jailing a woman on ridiculous charges MIddle East leaders vowing to “wipe Israel off the map.” The violent, vocal minority in Islam will not allow peace to happen. Where are the moderate Muslims in all this? Why don’t they make their voices heard?
Leigh is good,but Andrew you can’t be an atheist anymore than you can be a ‘believer’.
One can only be an agnostic.More Wittgenstein I think or many lashes..{’What does one mean by many?What does one mean by lucky?]
Actually I’m really upset by all this-hence the posting.
Whoa Drima, you really ARE getting famous. Dammit you’re on BBC, man.
Dear Pickledom,
Thanks for the support—I’ll wear it always. Your comment about Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in this thread shows that your head is screwed on properly —unlike some amateur philosophers, whose heads are screwed fullstop.
I was once an agnostic, but now I’m not so—um . . .
You say, “One can only be an agnostic. More Wittgenstein I think or many lashes.”
I’m not sure whether W said words especially to that effect (I haven’t looked hard enough yet), but he certainly did say words to the effect of “I don’t know why we’re here, but I’m pretty sure that it’s not in order to enjoy ourselves”.
During the so-called “monkey trial” of the high-school teacher John Scopes in Tennessee in 1925 his defence lawyer, Clarence Darrow, is reported to have said, “I don’t consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I don’t pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure—that’s all that agnosticism means.”
Anyway, everybody, if you want to get away from it all then go (back in time) to Sunni Sudan.
Drima says at the start of this thread:
“And meanwhile, British Keefieboy is confused: ‘Why is it ok for many thousands of men, some of whom have IQs appoaching zero, to be named after him?’ Approaching zero indeed. :)”
Dark ages indeed. It’s ironic that it was an _Arab_ scholar, Mohammed (or Muhammad or whatever) Bin Ahmad, who invented the numeral zero—in 967AD. It wasn’t till the start of the 13th century that this handy little trick filtered through to Europe, which was climbing out of its _own_ dark ages.
I’d like to share my opinion if I may (posted same at sudanforum.com)
I’m confused.
Before I let fly the anti-Muhammad remarks, can someone of the Sudanese community please explain to me the merits of this rediculous judgement? The woman has devoted years of her life to teaching children in a poor country, and she gives the class a teddy bear and encourages them to name it - possibly to give them a sense of pride or whatever.
The kids obviously loved their unforgiving ‘god’ so much that they named their new mascot the very same. Wouldn’t that be a sweet gesture anywhere else? So because whipping or lashing a bunch of kids for it would bring the whole world down on them quicker than they could say ‘death to teddy bears’, they instead arrest, jail, deport, want to lash/maim/stone, the one adult that was caring for them.
I don’t understand the logic. Muhammad (if he existed, which he doesn’t, but that’s another post) would never order this treatment of someone so selfless in her caring for these innocent children. Please explain.
So I for one have crossed Sudan off my ‘Places to go’ list. And next time I go to donate money to an aid organisation, I will re-think my generosity if they have any presence in Sudan at all.
As an extra protest, I’ve named my new dog Muhammad, or ‘Mad’ for short, he’s white AND black, humps his teddy bear (I think it’s a boy bear), and eats beef and pork by the kilo. I love living in a country of free speech, free will, equality of men, women, children and races, and where the term ’stoned’ is used in entirely different context.
Screw the barbarians who are behind this insanity, no-one with that kind of thinking is right in the head.
I am a sudanese but i don’t support this islamist government that has been committing horrors and disgrace in the name of islam and the people of Sudan. It is just immoral government headed my immoral extremists==>i.e genociders
[…] NOTE: Scroll down for the post on the Teddy Bear Crisis. […]
The conflict in Darfur is described by the UN as one of the world’s worst humanitarian crises, affecting up to 4 million people. Fighting between rebel groups, security forces and the Janjaweed militia continues largely unrestrained. Entire villages have been wiped out and 400,000 people have been killed
Come on people - get things into perspective!
(Leigh Oats).
Just because a religious, civil or general culture does something thfought of as admirable in 967AD, does not justify it’s actions in 2007. For example, introducing the numeral 0 to Europe, does not balance with hanging a 15 child from a crane in Iran for being raped.
But to correct you, the numeral 0 was “invented” as a marker originally not a number, and was introduced to the Arabs by the Maya and Indian culture’s, and actually dates back to the 3rd or 4th centuary BC. So at least try and justify Islamic stupidity with something real.
Well, really, I think the world would be a lot nicer place without religion – they are all nutters. Why can’t I have my own religion which says that Mohammed is a Twat as a central theme? That would be crazy to a normal person but It’s no more crazy than believing anything else supernatural…i.e. religion. But, alas, the Atheists will never win as there are too many blind faith nutters out there. The old tea pot floating in space argument springs to mind – you cannot prove it is not there, therefore believing it is there is valid – even though it cannot be proved it is. Crazy.
Now, I don’t want to go on too much about this ( and I don’t want to preach to the converted of course) but it may seem fine to think “well, if they believe that, let them believe that”. But that is wrong – it affects our daily lives through government policies….eg Bishops automatically having a seat in the highest court in the land (House of Lords) and then there are stupid statements from Tony Blair et al….on Iraq war…”God will be my judge” eerrrrrrr NO he won’t Tony…but brilliant excuse to hide behind! Why can’t murderers use that one? Because we are the manipulated sheep and they are gods Shepard. Will the world ever wake up? It is sad for humanity.
Anyway, better shut up now or I could go on all day!
http://theblurb.spaces.live.com/
This guy has put quite a funny article on though! At least it lightens the mood a little.
“where the term ’stoned’ is used in entirely different context.”
Yes, as Sir Humphrey said:
In the UK, a woman gets stoned first, and THEN commits adultery.
“But, alas, the Atheists will never win as there are too many blind faith nutters out there.”
And there’s the difference between faith in G-d and atheism.
During the Shoah Jews believed that G-d will help, even though there were too many atheist nutters out there trying to kill them.
Faith gives hope.
(And I am sick and tired of being informed that religious people are the source of all violence when, in recent history, it was the atheists who slaughtered the religious most often.)
You know what, I am getting bored of having to respect religious sensitivities of other cultures living in Britain. But I still do. I like the fact that my 5 year old son is taught about Diwali at school and he comes home wearing a Bindi (can he be beheaded for this?). I dislike the fact that they do not celebrate Christmas at his school in case it offends anyone. What on earth is that about. Maybe we should begin to adopt a similiar stance to other countries and get tough on non christians in the UK.
I know we should adapt and respect others beliefs, but doesn’t respect and tolerance work both ways, it seems not.
This whole Teddy Bear debacle is barbaric and exactly the type of event that causes long lasting ill feeling.
Why can’t we all just get along.
(by the way, I am not religious, but I repsect that people have their beliefs, as long as they don’t judge me for mine. Yet I find myself being judged for this in Britain today a lot more than I would 10 years ago.)
Peace.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm
So the moderate muslims now want the teacher at the heart of the teddy bear case to be executed.
It’s annoys me slightly that these same so called peaceful “muslims” live in the UK pretending to be a good neighbour, when we all know that given the chance they would kill us in our beds or force us all to convert.
I can’t believe I’m at the point where I feel, wow, I can’t wait to see their first crops fail and stand back and laugh when they want our aid, that’s got to be pretty sad. But I’m pretty tired of these small insignificant muslim states laughing at us. Am I the only one??
@Imaginary Mohammed
Atheism itself is a religion! Only you believe in god doesn’t exist. So where is the difference?
This has all been blown out of proportion, the woman was there to educate the school children. Not to intentionally incite some kind of racial hatred. She made a mistake, although i would argue that it was the children’s mistake foremost, after all, in such a religous country, surely they should know better than to even suggest that name.
As for the people who have rallied and protested to be shot, i think they need to take a good, hard look at what their religion teaches them - peace and tolerance to name a few.
Let her go home.
Sick and murderous mob who know nothing better, than to kill, mame and attack those who may not understand their religion, they should be ashamed of themselved. ITS JUST A TEDDY BEAR. I’m sure that their God is watching and thinking what have they become. Sick.
Uh George, Muslims in the UK have distanced themselves from this and I have not met a single Muslim who endorses this action by the Sudanese authorities.
And all the silly talk about Muslims trying to convert you sounds like paranoia to me.
What Daniel? You think a Muslim working with you, or the “many” you’ve recently met will say.
“I’d like you to die you infidel git and stop insulting Mo’s realm”
I don’t think so. But an official survey stated that nearly 50% of British Muslims believed they should have the right to live under Sharia law in the UK for their “own” purposes. In the same way Muslims are fighting to have Sharia law in Canada for Muslims.
Below is the link that is trying to allow harsh Sharia law in Canada, how long before it happens in the UK? Never you’ll say. But they said that in Canada as well.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1126181967010_31/?hub=Canada
So remember the saying Daniel, “Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean your not being followed.”
And before anyone says “Which survey” here is a link..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml
This was a year ago, since then then figure has increased.
Not PARANOIA, FACT. If this continues, we would have the same sort of ludicrous points of women in prison for being raped, and more flags burned in the streets everytime a cuddly toy gets the wrong name.
So you keep your head in the sand pretend that Islam “loves” you and the rest of us will keep a vigile and what is happening to our country.
Not too many years ago insulting Great Britain was something no one in Sudan would drea m of. Has everyone forgotten what we have done for you in the past and the previously close ties between Khartoum and London.
If this is the we can expect I call upon the British government to reckognise a British subject in danger and GET HER OUT
brianjh
sorry for spelling errors—-I am angry
brianjh
This incident has outraged me so much, after all we do for these 3rd world pigstys they repay our citizens who are offering quality, helpful services, like this, a woman who was just trying to do her best for the children? Instead of planning to kill her, perhaps turn the firing squads on yourselves.
Muslims are little more than a plague on todays world, anything you say to or about them is in some way an insult or an outrage to the Islamic religion. People from the muslim part of the world use religion as an excuse for barbaric behavior and general thugism, they make a huge fuss over the slightest of incidents - as for fitting in.. pft, you don’t see muslims over here taking off the veils and donning a pair of jeans, some Nike trainers and a T-shirt with ‘I vote Pedro’ on it. No.
Sudan should be on its knees to the UK and western countrys for the aid they offer. If (as in my opinion we should) we left them as they are and ignored them, then they and other 3rd world nuisances would have long ago become extinct of people.
People need to stop being so PC and say what they are thinking, I’m just saying what a lot of hard working British people are thinkijng about this whole incident.
To all you muslims and others out there pretending you are ‘Not like the violent extremists’ then think of it this way, if the call came out - Western Europe Vs. Islam, whose side would you be on?
Sacha,
You have a point. Unfortunately.
[…] the Sudanese Thinker doesn’t know whether to laugh or cry, but does round up several more annoyed Sudanese bloggers, and three “Free Ms Gibbons” […]
Drima,
Are you going to organize a protest after Friday prayers (or anytime) against these people calling for her death? You should you know. I would like it if you post the pictures here after you do. You are concerned that we are putting too much emphasis on this case rather than saving the people of Darfur. Please, after this, tell us why we should care. Ms. Gibbons cared about the children of Sudan and look where that got her!
this just shows how crazy muslims are
WHY DON’T THE MUSLIMS ARREST SOMEONE WHOS NAME IS MUHAMMEND?
Wow. It doesn’t take much to think about how ridiculous this situation is. If the teacher let the kids name the teddy bear muhammad maybe they aren’t teaching the children proper Muslim law in Sudan…or maybe the children are just being human. Sudan should be disgusted with themselves for the way they’ve treated this teacher who has dedicated her time and life to her passion. Not that I would have gone to Sudan anyway because of their outlandish laws, but thats a double-check next to “Sudan sucks”. They certainly have the world looking down on them. I have never been SOOO proud to be American, and any other “free” country should feel the same.
George, I AM Muslim (since you probably lack reading comprehension based on overlooking my earlier post in this blog entry) and I think you’re a paranoid delusional idiot. Just because you think you know Muslims based on reading LGF and BNP propaganda doesn’t make you much of an expert.
Dear “George(UK)” (perhaps a pseudonym for the proudly uneducated hornets’-nest-stirrer Alf Garnett?), apparently in unthinkingly censorious reaction to just one of my contributions to this thread you make this own-goal start to your mystifying post of “November 30th, 2007 10:27 am”:
“Just because a religious, civil or general culture does something thfought of as admirable in 967AD, does not justify it’s actions in 2007.”
In none of my posts in this thread have I suggested any such justification. I invite you to take all of my “Mohammed the Teddy Bear” posts to your primary-school teacher, or to your English-language teacher if you’re already in secondary school, so that he or she can conduct you through my remarks one at a time, with special attention to my explicit employment of the rhetorical device known as _irony_.
That part of your education will be especially ironic if the teacher happens to be a _Muslim_ who can show you how to improve your command of the mechanics of the written English language—especially in syntax, punctuation, vocabulary and spelling.
Afterthought: Perhaps you’re from a country other than the UK. We’re sometimes told that people from a certain part of the world don’t _do_ irony.
What a great advert for promoting the benefits of Islam.
I’m surprised we haven’t yet seen a burning effigy of the teacher, the union jack and the queen outside the police station!!!!!
As a result of these pathetic, farcical and disturbing events I have decided to call my toilet “Mohammed” and will take great pleasure in sh*tting on it as often as I can!!
This is so typical i am not religeous, but it seems it is the same old story.
Divide and conquer.
Why cant we all live and let live.
There are people in great Britain who love this kind of stuff ie the bnp.
please do not play into there hands.
Calm down folks..
The teddy bear incident (like the Danish cartoons etc) is fueled and used by fundamentlists to strenghen their positions AND to avoid focus on the real problems. Dont play their game. And remember most muslims think the whole situation is grotesque. Just like the rest of us.
In my opinion Britain and the other western countrys need to stop the diplomacy charade and make the point known.
Start deporting all Muslims, cut off ALL Aid to Sudan and other 3rd world hellholes. Stand firm on this until they decide to treat our citizens with MORE THAN respect for all our country has done for them.
You see, in an attempt to be absolutely fair to these cretins we have actually ended up being overly fair and equal. If you make a remark about a persons race (whether or not meant in a racist way) then you are frowned upon. You don’t see Christians locking up muslims for wearing veils, british national christians are forced to take off crosses they wear around their neck and other such items so we don’t offend the other workers.
Bullshit, if they don’t like it then sod off back to your own countrys, no-one is forcing you to be here - on the contrary we would prefer it if you weren’t.
Think how much money the country would save by cutting aid, all these 3rd world countries do is bring the more developed countrys trouble. They then beg for aid and somehow make it our fault they are in this mess. Take Zimbabwe for example, under control of the British empire it was a thriving economy - look at the mes its in now. Whose fault is that? Hm.. you were the ones wanting independance. Now you come running after you realise what a mess you’ve made. Don’t think of me as insensitive, I can’t even begin to imagine the horrors people go through under the rule of that maniac Mugabe but thats a different issue. The point is you got yourselves in this mess - why should we help you out when you pushed us away?
Want to know how to eliminate the threat of a terror attack in Britain? Simple - send all non EU residents home.
Don’t like it? Hm.. go call the carepolice.
Muslims, what have you got to offer the world apart from Terrorism, fear, whining and general patheticism. I agree with ‘Sacha’ a few posts above, your a plague to this already dying world.
I’m sick of this, the cartoons are a good example - some minor humour gets the cartoonist a bounty on his head, yet.. while they burn american and british flags we do nothing and are supposed to be sympathetic towards them.
If it was upto me I would drop a bomb over all of these pathetic, whining countries that support terrorism and can’t look after there own citizens so go around fucking the lives up of decent western people of whom they are jealous. Drop a bomb on them all and have done with it, problem solved.
It’s like that joke -
What do you call 1 muslim on the moon? Problem
What do you call 100 muslims on the moon? Problem
What do you call all the muslims on the moon? Problem Solved.
Sorry but if you view me as racist then do you blame me? What good is there about muslims? Please tell me one thing they do that makes the world a better place and I will gladly eat my own words.
The arrest of this teacher sounds to me as nothing more than a political excuse to draw negative attention to a school that Islamic hardliners wish to see closed. A strong education system is always a threat to people who want control over others.
Islam is like any other religion; well-intentioned yet hijacked by individuals with political agendas who understand the power in giving a discontented slice of society a common target - in this case a poor woman who has no doubt given up a more comfortable life in the UK to help what she saw as disadvantaged children living in a poorer country.
On the other hand here in the UK we have organisations such as the BNP who give small-minded, impotently angry idiotic little individuals (like Edd above) discontented with their own inadequate lives another common target.
Its easy to get power over people when you can get them so easily worked up over something - whether it be a teacher you claim defiled your religion, or a religion you claim defiled your sense of decenct human values.
Cheers Leigh.I don’t think you should plough through a lot of linguistic philosophy-you have it.Believe or Know.
Anyway let’s move up a notch.
Do you think the Big bang theory is just another creation myth? Some scientiists believe[sic]it is not and others don’t know[sic].
Anyway,what do you call a teddybear with one eye?
How many teddybears does it take to change a lightbulb?I’m ashamed.Reluctant agnostic.
Edd[although angry]is just about right.
The only trouble is me[until recently] and my wife worked/work for the N.H.S. and among the people she works for are an Iraqi,an Iranian,a Sudanese,some Americans[U.S.A.],a French lady,Irish and many others[mostly highly respected consultants].
No doubt some taught their skills in the U.K.
I give up.What is the answer?
“C’mon Gordon,do a Blair. Invade Sudan.”
Don’t you mean “liberate” ?
Does the name Mohammed have a patent on it? I don’t understand why a name hundreds of thousands of people in this world have should directly be connected to a specific person.
What annoys me is we are too liberal and have too many “do-gooders” running our country. This sad, pathetic and awful incident is a further example of how irritating this really is.
I’ve seen further TV reports where the idiot crowds are asking for stricter punishment and even execution! Sorry but seeing these types holding knives and swords in what looks a shithole of country infuriates me.
We need to protect our British Nationals therefore we shouldn’t be arsing around trying to find diplomatic solutions with a system ran by extremists - send in the SAS, simply eradicate anyone who stands in their way, bring our Briton home!!
Anyone seeking a better life in Britain or currently living here now should be made to convert to Christianity. If this policy is unacceptable, that’s fine, but on your way for a free journey on the deportation bus!
There you go - a keep it simple policy, offered for free. We should not have mosques or any other religious places of worship other than Christian in our country. We should not be afraid or wary of skulking wannabe extremists plotting and neither should we accept so called clerics shouting off at the mouth slagging the country they now live in and convincing others their views are acceptable!!!!
We are too soft and the whole system is broken as a result!!!!
I’m annoyed and we all need to get back to operating by simple rules & standards. Good luck Gillian Gibbons.
The UK Government need to make an example of the sham Government in Sudan and expell the Sudanese ambassador and the entire foreign delegation in protest against the barbarian attitude they have.
Unfortunately Gordon Brown is a weak leader and he will no doubt allow the savagery of the Sudanese courts to prevail.
I agree with DS
THE GULF BETWEEN NORMAL CIVILISED PEOPLE AND FUCKWHIT ARABS AND RAGHEADS IS TOO VAST.LETS HAVE A WAR AND WIPE ALL THE BASTARDS OUT.
PS LOVE TO ALL IN DARFUR
For those whom think that the British should expel all the Sudanese in UK, do you think that would be a good solution? or even fair?
I’m completely against this barbaric reaction of the Sudanese authorities and now I’m really concerned about all the Sudanese in UK, especially students. Though, I don’t think the British government would be as narrow-minded as the Sudanese one and wouldn’t react in such a barbaric way and wouldn’t think of expelling the Sudanese whom are in UK.
Amjad, thanks for your post. Interesting comments. Firstly I don’t think the barbaric reaction is limited to the Sudanese Government - have you seen the TV footage of so called normal Sudanese people? Equally barbaric!!!
As for your comment relating to the British Government - they are not narrow-minded but too soft.
As far expel all Sudanese living in the UK - my answer is simple. I am fine with that so long as they totally accept Christianity, western values and more importantly blend into the “British” way of life.
By the way since naming my toilet Mohammed - I have taken several dumps and it really does work…..it’s even more of a calming place to think and relax. May I promote similar naming ceremonies!!!!
Norbert Norris:
Yes, you’re right. I forgot to mention that out. Lots of people in Sudan are also reacting in a very barbaric way. That’s actually unbelievable!
Thanks for some excellent synthesizing and inside commentary! You’re added to my blogroll over at toohugeworld.wordpress.com , where I’m posting from and about Sudan from the perpective of a recently arrived NGO worker. I’ll leave much of the analysis to you. Bravo.
Tell me, Norbert… How exactly does your call to forcibly convert or expel people based on religious belief (and the misguided notion of Christian supremacy) make you any better than the assholes ruling Saudi Arabia? Do you honestly want to go back to the Middle-Ages, the days of mass expulsion and forced conversion, oftenmuch targeting my own (Jewish) people? What was Christianity back then, with its fires of the Inquisition and expulsions of anyone not adhering to the “One True Faith”?
You, sir, are no better than the very fanatics that you so often attack, yet you are quite blind to that fact. Don’t become what you despise, unless… unless you merely despise it because it is done to people you view as people like *you*, and see no problem with it being perpetrated *by* you.
Thanks Roman - what a load of bollocks you spout sir! So you’re saying “world society” has moved on then from the so called middle ages?
The trouble is with different religions & cultures so called living together in the same country - use the UK as an example. That doesn’t happen in reality - what happens is there are pockets of the same race / religion living together - that’s where I think it’s failed big time. We truly don’t have a multi-cultural society we have a society that is now splintered!
*shrug* Some religions coexist freely. Others don’t. If your solution is so extreme a measure then I can’t help but see you as an idiot. You have a problem with a large Muslim population that doesn’t integrate, then stop letting so many immigrate and handle the integration. Your view of “no integration whatsoever is possible” has nothing in common with reality, because many Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and (yes, even) Muslims have integrated into British society. Deal with it. No way am I going to agree with someone who advocates returning to the days when religious minorities were forced into horrible conditions.
My my you are sarcastic aren’t you! “ah so very, very important matter.” It’s a lot more important than belief, sorry, your religion. A woman helping others to learn in a fucking hell hole of a country arrested for allowing some children to name a bear Mohammed. LOL! WHEN THE FUCK ARE YOU ALL GOING TO REALISE ITS THE 21ST CENTURY. I really do hope the world finds a way of removing you lot UNLESS your religion changes a hell of a lot. Religion summed up in a nutshell (not just yours): ABSOLUTE SHITE. CAUSES WAR AND HATRED. ANY NEED FOR IT? NONE WHAT SO EVER! THING YOU’RE ALL GOING TO A SPECIAL PLACE WHEN YOU DIE? DONT BE SUCH A BUNCH OF DUMB PRICKS. ITS NOT A FUCKING OPINION, ITS FACT FFS.
It would seem that this post has had the unfortunate side-effect of attracting various morons that want to use the event as a battering ram for their causes. Xenophobes, hate-filled atheists, the fun just never ends!
So here’s my suggestion: how about all of you who are just here to feed their ego and self-righteosness politely, yet hastily, fuck-off?
[…] discussion in the comments section of the Teddy Bear Crisis post ultimately boiled down to a smack down between angry atheists and religionists. I find it […]
Norbert Norris, get a hobby or go do something useful instead of spewing your hateful garbage.
Yo Drima, I saw a writeup at the BBC News on Nov 29th referencing your blog re: this ridiculous incident with the UK teacher. Have you read the article “Bloggers Condemn Sudan for Arrest”?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119391.stm
When I first learned about this arrest and the charges filed against Gillian Gibbons I felt somewhat sad for what I presume to be many reasonable and clear-thinking people from Sudan.
Andrew Heavens of Meskel Square was one of the first journalists reporting live from Khartoum about the “crisis” for CNN before the TIME/Warner network execs bumped him for some guy from TIME magazine.
Is this school where Ms. Gibbons worked affiliated with the international school that was built and funded by one of Khartoum’s leading business families? What’s the name of that group… the DAL Group I believe? Here is a link from Amjad’s blog about the Khartoum International Community School:
http://amjad248.blogspot.com/2007/06/khartoum-international-community-schol.html
This whole circus of course has nothing to do with religion, it’s about politics. It is just another example of how easily the present regime in Khartoum can “yank the chain of international media attention and public outrage” as if they were teasing an old junkyard dog. One day, hopefully soon, that old chain is gonna break.
Finally, it’s great that the “Sudanese Thinker” has become a serious GOTO blog for professional media networks when they are looking for news and opinions about Sudan. Quite an accomplishment in my opinion and you and your devoted readers deserve congratulations for your fine work online.
I, like Norbert have named my toilet mohammad (the name does not deserve a capital letter.
Excuse me while I take a dump.
Andrew, I love the way you are trying to defend religion. Sure, there were Atheists who commited crimes (don’t find a harder word) in the 20th century, sure some did before, some after and many will in the times to come. Hitler and Stalin were Atheists. So WTF? By arguing this way, I could say the “the jooz” murdered Jesus. Religious ppl did 9/11. THe crusadrs. Zionism. Reconquista. Genocide vs native Americans. Religious wars throughout Europe and the world. I think your way of arguing here is simply dumb.
For me, I#d love to leave religious ppl alone, the problem here is as soon as any religion gets institutional power, it starts to impose its way of thinking the truth to anyone under its influence. So I’d say it the other way round: believers, leave non-believers and different believers alone.
Faith gives hope, as well as ignorance might make one happier. Sure it gives hope, but many things do. Try believing life is an American movie with a happy end, it also helps. Doesn’t state anything. Believe in anything you like if it helps you, I don’t mind at all. But I mind when any religion is trying to impose it’s laws on non-believers. When chilodren get indoctrinated with this mind poison without the right or the possibility to chose.
“And I am sick and tired of being informed that religious people are the source of all violence when, in recent history, it was the atheists who slaughtered the religious most often”
Don’t you realize the intellectual void shown through this statement? The vast majority of Germans were Christians during WW2. THe vatican went fine with the nazis and even today during some genocide in Africa (Ruanda). Religion has never stopped violence. Sure not all religious ppl are violent, but neither are atheists.
My problem with religion is the fact that it puts a barrier for thinking. When you reach a point where you don’t see an answer, for believers, there is god or any mystical all knowing, hearty being giving the explanation, hope or anything needed. For me as an atheist, it is a sign for mankinds limited perceptional and intellectual capacity.
Enjoy god, prophets, anything religious you like. But it should be strictly limited to private life and a free choice to anyone. UNfortunately it isn’t thanks to centuries of propaganda.
Europia, you failed to comprehend Andrew’s argument entirely. Stalin’s regime, Mao’s regime, Pol Pot’s, Kim’s… These are all regimes where atheism gained institutional power, and utelized it. I grew up in the Soviet Union, Europia. Guess what? That meant that three generations of my family were taught to ridicule and despise religion, and people suffered for showing their “primitive” faith, and it easliy led to death. China today hunts down religious groups, puts them in concentration camps, and sells their organs to the highest bidder.
So what is this Atheism, that has followed the same path as the Spanish Inquisition? Is it any better than religious belief? No, it is not, and saying that religion is all about power and division and suffering is a lie, especially when taking the fact the Atheism proved to be much more murderous, in the past century at least. Atheism was used, just like any other ideology can be used, to attack those that do not adhere to it. And it brainwashes, and spews hatred and bigotry like any religious fanatics.
What Andrew was arguing is that blanket statements regarding religion and Atheism are false. At least try and properly read what Andrew was replying to!
BRE:
No, the school Ms. Gibbons worked for has nothing to do with the school I blogged about before, in that link you provided on your comment.
Ms. Gibbons worked for the Unity High School, which is a British international school in Khartoum since 1902 I believe.
The school you’re referring to, is Khartoum International Community School, which is owned by DAL group as you mentioned. I don’t think the two schools are affiliated with one another, and I don’t think anything links them together.
More ‘Teddy Mo’…
Mohammed the teddy bear is now for sale on Ebay! Oops - now “listing unavailable,” as we should have expected. Musn’t offend sensitive Islamist sensitivities! Via Egyptian Sandmonkey, who calls it “The inevtiable conclusion to Teddy Mo” … No pro…
europia
My problem with religion is the fact that it puts a barrier for thinking. When you reach a point where you don’t see an answer, for believers, there is god or any mystical all knowing, hearty being giving the explanation, hope or anything needed. For me as an atheist, it is a sign for mankinds limited perceptional and intellectual capacity.
from my experience the vast majority of atheists are holding extremely shallow, mechanistic and simplistic views on the reality in general and human nature in particular … i would define their atheism as of a very limited perception and intellectual capacity, one that blocks thinking completely…
in fact all too often these views are not even scientific that much … even science is more subtle than that …. their atehism is more like a religion based on a principle that if two alternative explanations can be offered for the same phenomena it’s the most mechanistic and simplistic one that should be automatically preferred … another principle that seems to guide this ideology is that if the same phenomena can be observed on two different levels, it’s the more basic, more rudimentary level that is ruling the upper one ….
a typical example is the belief held by many people i know that human nature is conditioned by human’s biochemistry and brain structure … as a proof these people frequently bring as an example a well known fact that such mental and psychological disorders as ADHD or OCD display very characteristic abnormal brain patterns in brain scans …. what these people usually dont know that patients who are treated against such disorders by purely psychological techniques frequently display normalization of brain patterns and brain chemistry in later tests without any medication treatment …
when this fact is brought to the attention of these atheists they usually swallow their tongue because it’s impossible to argue with this … on the other hand the whole thinking of such people is usually so decimated by this pseudo rational and pseudo scientific religion that they are hopeless … one can point their mistakes to them one or two times but it’s impossible to stand by their side correcting them all the time … they are lost because this shit is worse than any religion …
as to the psychological mess and unhappiness created by this pseudo religion i can write a whole book
Nobody, you have described it accurately and succintly. The simplistic mechanistic ideas in particular is something that I’ve run into so often that I’m starting to grow tired of hearing the exact same twisting of Occam’s Razor over and over again… And those are the *good* arguments… The worst are the ones about “what science has proved”…
Hitler and Stalin were Atheists. So WTF? By arguing this way, I could say the “the jooz” murdered Jesus
by the way .. it’s another point made by europia and it’s plainly wrong .. dunno so much about hitler but stalinism is based in atheism as much as maoism, pol pot and other communist shit and its mutations …
the millions and dozens of millions who were murdered by these regimes were not murdered by individual atheists like stalin … they fell victims to one of the most militantly atheistic ideologies of the last two centuries, one that came with its own system of ethics based on what it believed to be a rational, scientific approach ….
the scale of the communist atrocities in the 20 century owes it all to atheism and its attempt to create an alternative system of ethics … it was marxist atheism and its so called scientific social class based approach to ethics that unleashed the wave of red terror across the world …
to put it simple .. religions may have been responsible for many genocides in human history … but in the 20th century the atheists have simply turned genocide into a form of science
europia
Religious ppl did 9/11. THe crusadrs. Zionism. Reconquista. Genocide vs native Americans. Religious wars throughout Europe and the world. I think your way of arguing here is simply dumb.
i think each time i go through this post i will find another nonsense … how has zionism got here ???
i have already mentioned in my previous comment that until very recently the israeli arab conflict was fought on both sides by absolutely secular, often atheist, forces … on the arab side the communists and the baathists were either secular or atheist movements allied with the former soviet union … saddam hussein who killed hundreds of thousands of his countrymen was leading a 100% secular regime … in fact many of his victims were religious people .. the palestine liberation organization was dominated by communist and semi communist factions …
the same is true about zionism created and led by secular and usually atheist to the bone people who derived much of their inspiration from the russian communism .. in fact israel for decades was so dominated by industrial/agrarian communes and state companies that one can claim that it was basically another communist country ..
of course some wars in europe were religious wars … most were purely ethnic or national conflicts .. the atheists were a bit late to join the fray but they have certainly more that made up for their late arrival ..
@ Roman:
“Stalin’s regime, Mao’s regime, Pol Pot’s, Kim’s…”
My problem is that on these ideologies, the fact to be a believer or not was not the core of the ideology, which is totally different for religious ideologies. Hitler for example included god in several speeches to be more appreciated. Although being an atheist, he got some agreement with the roman catholic church. Priests were privileged prisoners in concentraton camps. So IMO you cannot say the ideology is an atheistic one in the sense of atheism being the core of this ideology.
“So what is this Atheism, that has followed the same path as the Spanish Inquisition? Is it any better than religious belief? No, it is not, and saying that religion is all about power and division and suffering is a lie, especially when taking the fact the Atheism proved to be much more murderous”
Well, here, I’d say that the problem is not atheism. Atheism does not tell you to persecute any believers. It doesn’t tell you to kill anyone. And it does not tell anyone is superior to another. It just states: you do not believe in God. God can never be a justification or an excuse for anything.
The problem is any ideology using distinction in race, gender, belief or whatever to oppress the minority. IMO it has nothing to do with atheism.
However, in holy books or in any religion, you will find let’S say controversial statements. Some genocide, the inferiority of women, of non believers or whatever. For sure you can say you have to see it in its historical context, but if you have to twist some ideology or written text to make it acceptable nowadays, I think it is obsolete.
@ mobody
First, my use of Zionism in the enumeration of ideologies was not meant to qualify it as compareable to the others. Zionism is no where near the others mentionned by myself. I just meant to list it as a religious ideology, not qualifying it in any way.
“from my experience the vast majority of atheists are holding extremely shallow, mechanistic and simplistic views on the reality in general and human nature in particular”
ok, for me, the religious view seems easier and less “true” as all open questions go back to one entity which totally escapes logics (in a scientifical way). Also, I do not want to discuss about the “vast majority” of believers in my experience. Either you have met the wrong people, or I did
“in fact all too often these views are not even scientific that much … even science is more subtle than that …. their atehism is more like a religion based on a principle that if two alternative explanations can be offered for the same phenomena it’s the most mechanistic and simplistic one that should be automatically preferred …”
Well, that is a personal experience you are living. For me, religion is more simplistic. The valuing of theoretical alternatives you stated has nothing to do with belief or faith, it is just a matter of simlplifying things. And to me, ppl reducing everything which is open to one single entity are more simplifying…
“what these people usually dont know that patients who are treated against such disorders by purely psychological techniques frequently display normalization of brain patterns and brain chemistry in later tests without any medication treatment …”
I never stated anywhere that psychological treatment is less worthy than any other. Also, psychology is science. Our senses are working in a biomechanical way (according to todays knowledge),
“the scale of the communist atrocities in the 20 century owes it all to atheism and its attempt to create an alternative system of ethics … it was marxist atheism and its so called scientific social class based approach to ethics that unleashed the wave of red terror across the world …”
Unfortunately, I fail to see the “owes”… Any fascist ideology killed different thinking people. Communists killed atheists as well if they had a different opinion. I fully support your deep reject of communism and its atrocities. But this ideology cannot be reduced (and simplyfied) to the matter of faith. And this is the difference to religious ideologies. In those, it is only faith and submission to gods will (interpeted by the rulers) what counts.
//missing in the above & sry for typo & bad formatting but it’S late and my screen is too small :-S
Our senses are working in a biomechanical way (according to todays knowledge), so any impression percepted by the human mind can (and probably is) generate or influence biomechanical processes. But I don’t see the point to our debate here.
At least, I guess we are all anti-communists and anti-fascists
Wish you all a good night.
Europia, and religious fanatics don’t kill people of their own faith, if they view their ideas as dangerous?
As for Atheism having no religious texts, it does not require any (though both the Cult of Reason and Communists wrote many texts that hold Atheism as a central theme, expanding on how it should hold dominant etc). What Atheism needs is a pure logic-based rationalization of theists being inferior and primitive due to their simplistic and blind faith, and that the world would logically be a better place without them. You yourself, as other Atheists who posted here recently, have voiced the exact same rationalization time and time again, without even realizing its significance. Atheists have, on many occasions in recent history, rationalized that theism is a man-made blight that must be erased to protect society, and have proceeded to put these words into action. Atheists often attempt to explain faith as anti-logical, making logic an ideal in itself for them.
Except we’re not machines, in a world of 1’s and 0’s. Nor are we mere animals led purely by biological needs.
Well, here, I’d say that the problem is not atheism. Atheism does not tell you to persecute any believers. It doesn’t tell you to kill anyone. And it does not tell anyone is superior to another. It just states: you do not believe in God. God can never be a justification or an excuse for anything.
The problem is any ideology using distinction in race, gender, belief or whatever to oppress the minority. IMO it has nothing to do with atheism.
well europia … atheism per se does not tell you to kill anyone .. neither it tells not to kill … as you rightly noticed atheism just states that one does not believe in god … as to where one will proceed from there only god, you claim does not exist, knows … from there one can go into communism with its worship of violence as a primary engine of social progress .. or one can engage in eugenics or some nazi racial research …
you want to say that atheism is an anti dote to violence ??? history does not support this claim .. it’s pointless to compare atheism and crusaders as there was zero atheism at that time … as a real political force atheism has a very short history but it’s a history rich in extreme intolerance and shocking violence ….
maybe you have in mind the modern atheists in the west who are very restrained indeed and some are even pacifists … but then the majority of religious people in the west mind their own business these days .. they are not into staging another inquizition … the western society changed as a whole including both atheists and religious ….
you want to compare you and other western atheists to religious muslims ??? but the muslim world is a backward and failing place that lives in a different historical reality, one that the west has left behind a century, if not centuries, ago … secular ideologies in the muslim world are no piece of cake either …
First, my use of Zionism in the enumeration of ideologies was not meant to qualify it as compareable to the others. Zionism is no where near the others mentionned by myself. I just meant to list it as a religious ideology, not qualifying it in any way.
i hate to repeat myself but zionism is not a religious ideology .. it was a nationalist movement that at the time of creation of israel was heavily leaning towards communism …. neither herzel nor ben gurion were religious people … apparently ben gurion was interested in oriental spirituality as he is known to have done yoga and even traveled to burma to learn buddhist meditation … but if anything he would have been considered a new ager these days … he was not a religious jew …
“As for Atheism having no religious texts, it does not require any (though both the Cult of Reason and Communists wrote many texts that hold Atheism as a central theme, expanding on how it should hold dominant etc). ”
Roman, here you quote two ideologies being atheistical at the same time. I am indeed convinced that theism or deism are inferior to atheism in a purely personal and intellectual way, means I think it’s the “idea” or “theory” coming closer to the “truth”. However, I am sure you are thinking a similar way, as no one ss convinced of an idea accepted as false,,, The way even ppl of different faiths are treated with disrespect in most religions is typical for that.
“Atheists have, on many occasions in recent history, rationalized that theism is a man-made blight that must be erased to protect society, and have proceeded to put these words into action. Atheists often attempt to explain faith as anti-logical, making logic an ideal in itself for them.”
Well, I am not spreading the idea of the eradication of faith or blief. IMO, institutional religion should just “die out” as all violent and mind guiding ideologies, dying out meant as a result of rational discourse. Anyone is and should be free to believe whatever he/she likes, accepting it is a strictly personal matter.
From your statements, I conclude that you think we’d have a world better without atheists.
Logic is no idea for itself. Rationality and logic are methods which have proven useful in all domains of life except in faith issues. By this, I do not intend the rejection of any irrational elements in our lifes, but their cut to a minimum in thinking. You say life is not 1 and 0, but what is it for you? 1, 0 and god? I think mankind has just started to understand itself and has quite some way to do, including many fallbacks. But the fact that enlightment was rather helpful in socio-cultural developement of humanity should be clear to us all. And enlightment was the first broad step away from religious rule and dogmatism over Europe.
Sure it did not end the bloodshed, but violence is inherant to any non-pluralistic ideology like communism, marxism, religion, nazism. There’S no god but god can be translated from any religion to any ideology…
@ nobody
“as a real political force atheism has a very short history but it’s a history rich in extreme intolerance and shocking violence ….”
Atheism has never been a political force. Communism was an ideology including atheism. true. But that does not mean it is an atheistical movement as this ideology provided solutions for all parts of life and not only for the religious matters.
Atheism is not an antidote for violence, but neither is religion. I think critical thinking while accepting some core values as pluralism, free speech and so on is.
“maybe you have in mind the modern atheists in the west who are very restrained indeed and some are even pacifists … but then the majority of religious people in the west mind their own business these days .. they are not into staging another inquizition … the western society changed as a whole including both atheists and religious ….”
There has never been atheism. You can find atheists in ancient greek history, and I am sure there have always been some. Check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History
for more info.
THe way religious ppl changed in europe is that they accepted that religion is a private matter. THat’s all I want.
“you want to compare you and other western atheists to religious muslims ??? but the muslim world is a backward and failing place that lives in a different historical reality, one that the west has left behind a century, if not centuries, ago … secular ideologies in the muslim world are no piece of cake either …”
Yes, I want to compare both societies as it is a perfect example for the positive influence of the loss of religious institutional power… Why is it a backward place? BEcause the illetration is as high a nowhere else and the answer to any open question is already in a holy book. Early secular ideologies suffer from a superiror perception of themselves IMO created by the former strength of faith in those societies. The problem is the acceptance of violence to propage any idea.
Zionism IMO _is_ a religious movement as it stands for a Jewish national movement. What is “Jewish” if not a religious classification??? Does not mean all members must have been strong believers…
There has never been atheism. You can find atheists in ancient greek history, and I am sure there have always been some. Check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History
for more info.
well. this is from your link
He was followed by other openly atheistic thinkers, such as Baron d’Holbach, who appeared in the late 18th century, when expressing disbelief in God became a less dangerous position.[76] David Hume was the most systematic exponent of Enlightenment thought, developing a skeptical epistemology grounded in empiricism, undermining the metaphysical basis of natural theology.
Ludwig Feuerbach’s The Essence of Christianity (1841) would greatly influence philosophers such as Engels, Marx, David Strauss, and Nietzsche. He considered God to be a human invention and religious activities to be wish-fulfillment.
Ludwig Feuerbach’s The Essence of Christianity (1841) would greatly influence philosophers such as Engels, Marx, David Strauss, and Nietzsche. He considered God to be a human invention and religious activities to be wish-fulfillment.
The French Revolution took atheism outside the salons and into the public sphere. Attempts to enforce the Civil Constitution of the Clergy led to anti-clerical violence and the expulsion of many clergy from France. The chaotic political events in revolutionary Paris eventually enabled the more radical Jacobins to seize power in 1793, ushering in the Reign of Terror. At its climax, the more militant atheists attempted to forcibly de-Christianize France, replacing religion with a Cult of Reason. These persecutions ended with the Thermidorian Reaction, but some of the secularizing measures of this period remained a permanent legacy of French politics.
this is not how marx and others saw it … atheism is not just one piece of communism … it’s fundamental to it … the marxist concept of violence came at its rejection of universal ethics … it was an attempt to rationalize ethics and put them on a scientific rational basis, a very atheistic endevour …
marxism is not an eclectic system .. it’s organized in a hierarchical manner in which dialectical materialism, which is atheism, serves as a basis for the rest of the ideology …
as to zionism as a religious movement i think we’ll have to stop here …you take one movement packed with atheists and quasi communists and bring it as an example of religiously inspired violence … then you take another one, based on atheism and atheist to the core, that killed tens of millions across the world and declare its atheism irrelevant to the topic at hand … this way you can prove your point about atheism vs religious violence without any need for having religious people at all !!!
Europia, the two ideologies that I brought as an example were dogmatically atheist. There was no uncertainty in their actions, merely the zeal of the fanatic. I brought them as the clearest examples of my view on atheism - not that the world would a better place without it, but rather that the claim that Enlightened Atheism is free of the dogma and imposing ideology of religious institutions is false. So utterly false, in fact, that it sounds arrogant.
Logic may not be an ideal for you, Europia, but I grew up in the Soviet Union. Three generations of my family were brainwashed into “disbelieving fancies” such as religion. “science proved” this, “science proved” that… It grows tiresome after a while, especially when it violates the basics of scientific theory construction.
We may be able to use 1’s and 0’s to try and work out the mechanics of the world, but mechanics do not equal essence.
And religions can be much more tolerant than atheists, in my experience. Accepting that others may have other paths to tread towards the same goal isn’t all that difficult, or at least that you shouldn’t be bothered about there existing any path other than your own, false as you may view them. It’s not up to us to pass final judgement, after all. Us religious types tend to leave such final judgement someone else.
incidentally i have a post about the connection between the radical islam and radical left …
when a monkey meets a monkey
Europia, please at least read the Wikipedia entry about Jews before trying to classify us so easily: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
You should have worked out just how wrong your definition of Zionism is had you stopped to consider the fact that the basic meaning of Judaism is “The religion of the Jews.”
These few words should have already given you a clue about there being something more complex than just religion here.
As for your “acceptance of violence” argument, it also works in reverse. Perhaps religions were violent because the societies that they were in viewed violence as an acceptable way to spread ideas? Because, you see, your implication that atheist movements were violent because religion made violence acceptable is the loaded argument of the day, one which shifts blame away from people you can relate with, to people you don’t like that much.
Atheism does not mean the reject of universal ethics. Not at all. I believe those are necessary and fundamental to any society.
THe religious superiority of it’s own ethics was not that fruitful either.
I fully agree in your rejection of communism. But atheism was there before communism and will be after. YOu stick to communism as your only argument vs. atheism without accepting any critics on the concept of god or religion in general which is not creatig any violence. In fact, fro the opinion that there is no god you canot create a source for violence. Sure this concept can be used for supremacist ideologies and has been, but all holy books clearly qualify the followers as superior to non-followers. Only the followers will be rewarded in some mystical future. And what makes your belief so superior to any ancient one where you had a god for any non explainable event? The belief that the many gods shrinked to one big one?
And how comes universal ethics exist without religon? Sure it is god… From my and millions others rejection of god or any mystical entity, you insult us as more violent, less ethical? How easy is this?
Believing in god or not on a personal level has nothing to do with violence per se… THe problem is when the personal belief becomes the one of the majority in hard times. There, any ideology tends to oppress the minority. What do you thnik makes it easier to use violence: the single idea that there is no god or the following of centuries old rules in a book clearly stating the superiority of the followers and describing the use of violence of non-believers? Some gang raping of a daughter explicitly tolerated by some pervert tribal god who asked the father to exchange his daughters life to protect his guests? The fear of some future puishment to enforce the rule of “god’S will” on earth? Sounds like the classical enforcing of power mankind has aalways used…
All religions can be much mre tolerant than atheists in your experience. Sure, you grew up in some place guided by fascits whose ideology was atheistic. But don’t you think it is in this context you met the atheists? Did you ever meet humanistic atheists? Doesn’t sound so. You and your family suffered from one horrible ideology. You have all my compassion. But still, it does not give you the right t ogeneralize on all atheists. Do you think greek atheists were the first communists? That they were unethical people? Rethink history.
As for religion, at least i the “book”religions, the writings are full of vengence, hatred and unjustice (at least to me as an unethical person).
Wait for final judgement and have fun doing so. I do my judgemet for myself and now, trying to use all my intellectual abilities and ways of perception. However, my judgement will never have any bad consequences for any one else, at leas tnot intended ones. Waiting for judgement day can have horrible consequences, as it makes the use of violence easier when some potentially violent followers believe this day is close.
It’s so easy to give the responsability soeone else…
I have met humanistic atheists, who while not violent were quite pompous and self-certain in their position of the next cultural evolution of mankind. I have also met arrogantly violent atheists, and today I have met an atheist who claims that atheists are less arrogant and more pluralistic as a rule, yet blames me of blanket statements regarding atheism when I cry foul, an atheist who does her very best to separate any wrongdoing done in the name of atheism from atheism itself (yet refuses to contemplate the same arguments for religion), and an atheist who refuses to see some of atheism’s unique loopholes for madmen (moral reconstructionism and selfproclaimed-intellectual superiority), while repeating the loopholes in organized religion time and time again like some kind of mantra.
As I said, Atheism does not need books. What it lacks in centralized structure and text, it compensates for quite adequately with the elitism of the Enlightened who shall inherit mankind’s future.
You blame me for refusing to accept criticism of religion, when you yourself avoid any blemish on atheism. I have tried, time and time again, to show you that the form of your arguments is biased, and I have failed. Everyone is biased in one way or another, but in your over-protectiveness of atheism you have acted *exactly* like a very religious person would have acted in your place, had he perceived an attack on his belief. And yet we are the primitive ones…
Atheism does not mean the reject of universal ethics. Not at all. I believe those are necessary and fundamental to any society.
THe religious superiority of it’s own ethics was not that fruitful either.
I fully agree in your rejection of communism. But atheism was there before communism and will be after. YOu stick to communism as your only argument vs. atheism without accepting any critics on the concept of god or religion in general which is not creatig any violence.
i dont stick to communism for personal reasons or whatever .. in the 20-th century communism killed more people than any other ideology or religion … that’s why … soviet gulag and pol pot’s killing fields set new records in terms of violence and cruelty .. then you come and teach us on how atheism is going to stop wars and bring peace … and where did i deny that religion is not creating violence ???
Sure this concept can be used for supremacist ideologies and has been, but all holy books clearly qualify the followers as superior to non-followers. Only the followers will be rewarded in some mystical future.
well … it’s plainly wrong .. at least as far as judaism is concerned ..
i won’t respond to each and every one of your points but i am wondering why do you make it personal ??? i was not talking about you in particular or humanistic atheists … i thought we are all for pluralism and individuality and are smart enough to know that we are talking in general about general trends and not about individuals, let alone each other ….
As I said, Atheism does not need books. What it lacks in centralized structure and text, it compensates for quite adequately with the elitism of the Enlightened who shall inherit mankind’s future.
i doubt that any reasonable person watching the demographic crisis unfolding in europe would believe that atheism can inherit mankind’s future … in fact i am more worried about secularism as such … atheists can only dream about inheriting something …
europe is plucking holes currently by practicing demographic vampirism and sucking off population from the rest of the planet but with paris riots and the rise of nationalist parties everywhere it seems that it’s already approaching the limit ….
in 20-30 years countries such as italy or germany will be left with a demographic remnant of their present population and there are no signs that the situation is going to improve …. no amount of social engineering in countries such as sweden seems to be capable of reversing the decline …
the shrinking of secular societies in absolute terms in the west is now proceeding at such a pace that the atheists should better worry about their survival as species … inheritan