Why Ahmedinejad exploits the Holocaust

28 Responses to “Why Ahmedinejad exploits the Holocaust”

1. Andrew Brehm on September 28th, 2007 10:07 am

   There is just one part missing in the equation.

   Somehow, I have never understood this.

   “Much the same mixture of exhilaration and invective marked the first flush of war in the other Arab capitals. “Kill the Jews!” screamed Radio Baghdad. A Syrian commander offered the rash prediction to radio listeners that “we will destroy Israel in four days.”"

   http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,843937,00.html

   How can the strategy of claiming that the Holocaust never happened work with an Arab population who are still proud that they tried to kill all the Jews and who live in countries where Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” is among the best sellers?

   If I was myself engaged in a genocide against some nation, I wouldn’t insist that nobody else was trying it before me.

   So what is the “official line” here? There was no Holocaust but all Jews must die or All Jews must die and the Germans understood that too?

   If killing Jews is good and honorable, how come the Holocaust cannot have been real?

2. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 10:17 am

   Yes, Ahmadinejad’s exploitation of the Holocaust is merely continuing a long-standing trend. I’m always amused whenever he says “Zionists use the Holocaust to justify oppression”, as he says this as part of his political hate agenda. And when he said in his Columbia Q&A that the Holocaust should be opened to scientific debate (it is open, anyway), I immediately thought of David Irving. AJ’s “scientific debate” is that of removing the event itself from history, either “proving” that the Evil Jews faked it or orchestrated it for Evil Jewish ends. And yes, AJ is very good at what he does. He was fully in control of the Columbia debate.

   I agree that Arab Muslims should talk to Jews more, but it doesn’t always work out. Preconceived views are very powerful, and the web only help those who use it. Most Arabs don’t have Internet access.

   The Internet helps, man, but not as much as we’d like it to.

3. Drima on September 28th, 2007 10:17 am

   Damn you Andrew! My brain spun twice inside my skull. Very interesting observation.

   Human nature: we are full of contradictions.

4. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 10:20 am

   Andrew, the answer is doublethink. The contradictions between the two views are easily resolved by not being thought of, as they both work for the same end-goal.

5. Drima on September 28th, 2007 10:25 am

   Andrew, I talked to many Arabs who do believe the Holocaust happened but still wouldn’t say that publicly. They only say it privately during a conversation. I have observed that to many of them, denying the Holocaust is sort of like giving the finger to Jews. That’s why AJ is popular with a large segment of the Arab street. He gives “the finger” to Jews.

   Roman, “And when he said in his Columbia Q&A that the Holocaust should be opened to scientific debate (it is open, anyway)”

   It is open to debate but not in some European countries (previous discussion here).

   “Preconceived views are very powerful”

   Arrghhh, tell me about it. I suffered from a serious headache when I first started blogging.

   “The Internet helps, man, but not as much as we’d like it to.”

   Right now, it’s the only option we have. As more get internet access, more interaction will happen.

6. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 11:16 am

   Drima, there is a difference between historical and scientific debate, and manipulation based on ideology rather than fact.

   David Irving, to bring an example, has often practiced what is called “Holocaust reduction”. He started with denying evidence of gas chambers (it exists, from testemonies to mountains of Nazi documents). Then he proceeded to halve the Jewish death-toll. Then he went from millions to hundreds of thousands, and said that the vast majority of them just died of Typhus anyway. Ergo, the Jews just faked it for personal gain, which he implies often without saying it directly.

   The above is akin to saying that the world is not round, but rather dish-shaped, until a further series of false arguments can flatten out the remaining edges. If the initial argumemt is recognized as completely false, then the one who brought it shouldn’t be treated with respect anymore.

   You can debate the Holocaust in Germany, but denying a very recent historical event is not debate, historic or scientific. It is done either out of ignorance, or out of malicious intent. Often it is the latter. With AJ, it is purely malicious intent.

7. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 11:19 am

   You’re right about us having little beyond the Internet, if any. Let’s hope that it helps.

8. Andrew Brehm on September 28th, 2007 11:27 am

   “That’s why AJ is popular with a large segment of the Arab street. He gives “the finger” to Jews.”

   He also gives the finger to homosexuals, Zoroastrians, Iranian Christians, and other powerful groups that nobody else dares threaten.

   He is one brave man.

9. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 11:36 am

   You forgot the Baha’i, Andrew. The Islamic Republic of Iran has a very unfavorable view of Baha’i. As in graveyards get razed and no admission to universities.

10. Roman Kalik on September 28th, 2007 11:44 am

    In fact, Iran treats the Baha’i in a manner very similar to how Tsarist Russia (and much of Europe) treated Jews. They’re even accused of being Zionists, much in the same manner Jews were routinely accused of treason and conspiracy.

11. Andrew Brehm on September 28th, 2007 12:16 pm

    Yes, sorry, I guess the list of powerful groups the Iranian brave gives the finger to is just too big.

    He is afraid of absolutely noone, not even defenceless women.

12. Andrew Brehm on September 28th, 2007 12:31 pm

    “They’re even accused of being Zionists”

    Well, they are Zionists, strictly speaking.

    The Bahai faith is based on the Abrahamic religions and Zoroastrianism. Both traditions have always been Zionist (as in “Jews should and have a right to live in the land of Israel”).

    The Tanakh says so, the Christian Bible says so, the Quran says so, the Zoroastrians believed so (hence the end of the Babylonian exile and the 2000+ years alliance between Israel and the Persian empire).

    So, yes, they are Zionists. They have to be Zionism is an integral part of all monotheistic religions of the Abrahamic and Zoroastrian traditions.

    Like Muslims (ought to) the Bahai believe that Moses was a prophet of G-d and told the Jews that they must live in the land of Israel that G-d gave to them.

    I guess the criticism here is not that the Bahai are Zionists, but that our little pagan friend, the president of Iran, fails to be a Zionist and hence will burn in hell (since he knows the scripture and yet rejects its truth).

    Turns out Khomeiniism, the worship of ayatollahs, is NOT a religion sanctioned by the Quran.

    And G-d would have known about Khomeini in advance, I am sure, yet the Quran does not say:

    “Dudes, in a few hundred years some yahoo in Persia will announce that what was said about Moses was not the truth. And, dudes, the yahoo, although he will seem a bit like an overactive, evil child, will be right.

    Also, dudes, there is a loony in Arabia, who, while a sworn enemy of the prophet’s family, knows absolutely everything about G-d’s will. Follow him. Die for him. Just die. Try to kill people. Dudes.”

    (Note that I would never employ such sarcasm when referring to the real Quran.)

13. nominally challenged on September 28th, 2007 1:13 pm

    Anti-semitism will remain a potent political tool in the Middle East as long as Israel is the only thing Arabs are allowed to publicly complain about.

    Doesn’t that just say it all …

14. aaron on September 28th, 2007 3:46 pm

    nominally challenged - I couldn’t agree with you more.

15. Anonymous on September 29th, 2007 5:38 am

    Andrew Brehm: the Christian Bible says so…So, yes, they are Zionists. They have to be Zionism is an integral part of all monotheistic religions of the Abrahamic and Zoroastrian traditions.

    Dude, don’t even try to pull a stunt like this one. I’m a Christian and say bollocks on your erroneous interpretation of Christianity. True Christianity has no place for Zionism if by Zionism you mean an ideology that supports what the state of Israel is - i.e., an ethnic-cleansing, colonialist, violent, government where your ethnicity/religion determines your worth before the law instead of your status as a human being and child of God.

    On a broader note here, I can’t help but get consistently annoyed at the way nobody seems capable of striking a middle ground on these issues. From one side, Ahmadinejad denies/belittles the Holocaust and suddenly Israel is peaches and cream. From another side Israel bombs children and ethnically cleanses Palestinians and suddenly Bashar and Ahmadinejad can do no wrong. Folks, neither view is right taken to that extreme. Yet I go from one blog or website to another and almost no one seems capable of grasping the fact that everyone in these countries and their leaderships is human, meaning they are all capable of great evil and great good. You can condemn Ahmadinejad’s stupid Holocaust denial AND condemn Israel’s gun-Zionism AND still say that Iranians and Israelis and Palestinians have plenty of good folks amongst them.

16. Andrew Brehm on September 29th, 2007 9:46 am

    “Dude, don’t even try to pull a stunt like this one. I’m a Christian and say bollocks on your erroneous interpretation of Christianity.”

    Actually, it is quite a normal interpretation of the Bblical story about Moses telling the children of Israel to dwell in the holy land.

    “True Christianity has no place for Zionism if by Zionism you mean an ideology that supports what the state of Israel is - i.e., an ethnic-cleansing, colonialist, violent, government where your ethnicity/religion determines your worth before the law instead of your status as a human being and child of God.”

    Well, don’t put words into my mouth. I NEVER said that I believe that Zionism is an “ethnic-cleansing, colonialist, violent” ideology. In fact, I dare you to find any statement of mine where I said that I believe that Israel supports such an ideology.

    You don’t know much about Israel or its political system, that is very clear. Please visit the country. Then we can talk.

    I don’t know what “True Christianity” per your definition. But if it has anything to do with what you imply with your next statement, i.e. finding a compromise between executing gays and not executing gays, then I don’t want anything to do with your “True Christianity”. It lacks the “compassion” thingy that should so prominently show, if you know what I mean.

    “On a broader note here, I can’t help but get consistently annoyed at the way nobody seems capable of striking a middle ground on these issues”

    I am sorry, but I am proud that I don’t “strike a middle ground” in a discussion about a man who believes that homosexuals should be executed (AND has the power to implement that nonsense).

    And for the record: Israel does NOT bomb children. You must confuse that with Arab rockets targeting Israeli schools and kindergartens. Israel does NOT practice ethnic cleansing, which is why you find Arab citizens within its borders. Israel is “peach and cream” because it has show remarkable restraint in the face of an enemy that wants to destroy her. If Israel was only half as evil as you claim she is, all Arab Palestinians would have been dead a long time ago, and the countries that kept attacking Israel would be glass.

    No other country in the world accepts the crap Israel does.

    “Anonymous”

    I propose the following bet. I’ll dress up as a supporter of the Arab side, you dress up as a Jew supporting the Israelis. We’ll both travel to the middle east, you to an Arab city, myself to Tel Aviv. We’ll walk through our assigned cities donning a t-shirt showing our (fake) allegiance, and we’ll make a point of being Jewish/Muslim (our respective religious allegiances). He who lives longer wins the bet.

    We’ll see whether Israeli hate Arabs as much as you claim. And we’ll see whether Israeli violence might be a result of Arab hatred of Jews and Israelis. We’ll see…

17. Andrew Brehm on September 29th, 2007 9:55 am

    Ok, “Anonymous”:

    In 1967 several Arab countries attacked Israel and open announced, on the radio, that they wanted to “kill all the Jews”.

    Several million Jews would have died or become refugees (if they were lucky).

    Israel’s “gun-Zionism” stopped the attack and has since stopped all further attempts to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.

    I herewith condemn Israel’s gun-Zionism and put it to the world that all those Jews should have died in the name of peace.

    I now realise that the ape man’s claims about the Holocaust are morally the same as defending yourself against genocide and will no longer “pretend” that Iran is evil for lying about the Holocaust and that Israel is good for defending millions of lives against the prospect of genocide.

    I also admit that the Arab country’s call to the Palestinian Arabs that they shoulod leave Palestine in 1948 was really an attempt of ethnic cleansing by Israel.

    I also admit that Israel is bombing children, possibly even hurting the terrorists that keep the children next to their rocket launchers when the Israeli bombs hit. I openly state that I do not believe that bombing rocket launch sites is a legitimate defence against those rockets hitting the kindergartens and pre-schools they target. Jews should not be allowed to stop people from throwing rockets into their kindergartens.

    I also agree that it is religion and race that defines your value as a human being in Israel and I herewith condemn Israel’s attitude which so openly declares that a non-violent Jew and a terrorist are two different types of person and that only the terrorist belongs in prison. In fact, all those murderders should be released into the wild as a nod to the terrorists, who deserve to be free just as, no, MORE than the Jewish children in those kindergartens under constant attack.

    (I reserve the right to disbelieve and retract the above should I find out, at any stage in my life, that Jews and Israel are not actually as evil as I was told.)

18. Roman Kalik on September 29th, 2007 5:43 pm

    Anonymous, ‘Zionism’ means building a national home for Jews in the old land of Israel. That is all that it has ever meant outside hate-propaganda.

    Every citizen of Israel is equal in the eyes of the law, be he Jewish (of whatever origin), Muslim Arab, Christian Arab, Druze, Bedoin, Circassian, or whatever. Nor did Israel ethnically-cleanse anyone, as any unbiased history book will attest. In fact, the Jewish Settlement in Palestine accepted the UN partition plan, to which the reaction was a full-scale invasion. Israel did not start the war that resulted in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees (and hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees post-war), nor did Israel create said refugees. Blame those who started the war, and advised the Arab populace to leave for a safe haven until after the Jews were slaughtered or expelled.

    Or perhaps you wish to blame Israel for conquest of land? Sorry, it wasn’t Israel that marshalled armies at every border in 1967. It wasn’t Israeli leaders declaring that the time to destroy another nation has come (that was Nasser, by the way). Losing territory after invading and losing is, in fact, fairly typical of war. And gee, I do believe that Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt as part of a peace agreement.

    Now, you have a problem with Gaza and the West Bank? Then kindly tell me why the Palestinians did not grasp their chance for a state in 1947, 1967 (Israel was willing to negotiate for all captured territories just after the war ended. The Arab League said no.) And on numerous occasions during the 90s? The reality is that after the Six Day War, Israel ended up controlling territory that it did *not* annex (the Golan was, which is why the Syrian Druze living there hold Israeli citizenship), with people who only seemed to multiply rather than be “cleansed”. Israel is probably the worst ethnic cleanser in the world, as Israeli ethnic cleansing has the opposite effect. Frankly, had the Palestinian leaders gotten around the idea of sharing rather than endlessly fighting a lost and pointless war, they’d have a state today.

    As for settlements, dear, we can’t always control those, yet we destroyed Yamit in Sinai when we returned Sinai to Egypt, and destroyed the Gaza settlements (leaving the greenhouses as a gesture of goodwill) when we left Gaza.

    You know, the Egyptians kept their agreement, but Gaza seems to be a rocket-launch pad these days. With people in it. Suicide bombers still leave it (or try to) to explode among Israeli civilians. Raid squads enter Israel via tunnels. Not much of a peaceful gesture and encouragement for further Israeli withdrawals.

    Oh, and the greenhouses? Ruined. Areas closed for Hamas training.

    Palestinians in Gaza/West Bank are not citizens of Israel, anonymous. Frankly, I wish they’d get around to founding their state instead of vehemently trying to destroy mine.

    Oh, and Jews aren’t an ethnicity, judging by the myriad of Jews of all shapes and colors around. Neither is Israel founded on religion, as the founders ranged from secular to atheist. No, we are a culture and a nationality and a religion and Lord knows what else.

19. Roman Kalik on September 29th, 2007 6:01 pm

    As for bombing children, no, Israel doesn’t bomb children. At most, Israel targets military infrastructure that is in urban civilian areas. And before you accuse Israel of not being careful of civilians, we use these smart-bomb thingies and very expensive missiles and artillery for a reason. Had we been indiscriminate, we would have carpet-bombed. Had we been indiscriminate, we would have napalmed. Had we been indiscriminate, we would have saved billions of dollars and bought WWII-era dumb bombs to flatten whole cities.

    An artillery shell is not a sniper. If a Kassam launcher is in a village, people will get hurt. And yet, if the launcher remains in place, or if that bomb lab remains standing, people will also get hurt.

    So who are you, to tell us that we should sacrifice our civilians because Palestinian terrorists operate out of their homes, thus placing their civilians at risk? Who are you to decide that Palestinian blood is redder and purer than Israeli blood?

20. The Raccoon on September 30th, 2007 8:58 am

    Heh. Very interesting to read the comments at that link.

    By the way, I can’t help but admire Ahmedinejad. That genocidal, psychotic pygmy has an excellent dramatic flair and an uncanny understanding of the stupid masses.

    Reminds me of Hitler. I am sure these two Aryans would have gotten along splendidly, preaching mass psychosis in Munich’s beer halls.

21. Andrew Brehm on October 1st, 2007 3:51 pm

    “Reminds me of Hitler. I am sure these two Aryans would have gotten along splendidly, preaching mass psychosis in Munich’s beer halls.”

    Isn’t it ironic that Aryan leaders tend to be dark-haired and small, whereas Israeli Jews often tend to look exactly like the Germanic ideal, except a bit taller?

22. Andrew Brehm on October 1st, 2007 3:56 pm

    “Who are you to decide that Palestinian blood is redder and purer than Israeli blood?”

    Oh, come on, Roman. As if it hadn’t been established decades ago that those people really do believe that non-Jewish blood is redder and purer than Jewish blood. Books have written about it, “scientists” have confirmed it. It’s no miracle to find the belief alive, especially among adherents of “True Christianity”.

    “True Christianity”, btw, appears to be like traditional Christianity, except its Bible lacks the story of Moses’ prophecy plus the adherents have a strong belief that Jews must turn the other cheek.

    You find “True Christians” wherever a convenient religion is needed to make a racist feel good about his hatred of Jews. More violent adherents of the religion turn to “True Islam” of course ad unfortunately.

23. Andrew Brehm on October 1st, 2007 4:03 pm

    Test:

    Get a typical Palestinian terrorist with the usual children to put a rocket launcher somewhere in the Gaza strip.

    Launch the rocket. Then disperse the children one way and the terrorists another, make it clear which group is which.

    Let’s see which group Israeli artillery fire will follow.

    The funny thing about anti-Jewish allegations is that they can be tested so easily.

    Any terrorist group convinced that Israel targets the children and not them, will stay away from children, the same way that I stay away from Jewish kindergartens in Israel.

    You all know the best proof that Israel is morally superior to almost everyone?

    Her enemies believe that they can hide behind civilians and children!

    If Hamas and Hizbullah etc. did not believe Israel to be the good guys, they would never believe that they could hide among civilians to escape Israel’s wrath. But they do. And I am proud of Israel for it.

    Hamas and Hizbullah have a FAR higher opinion of Israel than the world and even myself. I agree with Hamas and Hizbullah that hiding behind children helps against Israel’s fire, but I believe that it shouldn’t help. That makes even my own opinion of Israel lower than Hamas’ and Hizbullah’s, as I believe that Israel could change its policies and become more evil as needed.

    If everyone in the world valued Israel’s morality as highly as Hizbullah, the would be no war.

24. Suzanne on October 6th, 2007 10:01 am

    I found an excellent article on Jerusalem Post, some exctracts:

    “(…) Indeed, regardless of Columbia president Lee Bollinger’s face-saving apologetics, nobody challenged Ahmadinejad’s deceptive underlying hypothesis. Some of his Holocaust-themed jibber-jabber - as distinct from blatant Holocaust-denial - sounded almost axiomatic. Just note the difference between the jeers triggered by Ahmadinejad’s assertion that there are no homosexuals in his fiefdom and the applause that followed his contention that Palestinian Arabs “are forced to pay for the Holocaust,” which - if it at all took place - “was in Europe and they had nothing to do with it, but are suffering for it.”
    (…)

    Turning the light on Arab-Nazi collusion can be as devastating to demagogues as the realization that the Jewish state was already in the making before World War II. Were it established just a decade earlier, incalculably more Jews would have found asylum. The Jewish state wasn’t the product of the Holocaust. Its independence was delayed by it.
    (…)

    Arabs were among the first to latch onto Nazi ideology. Undisguised fascist parties proliferated, from Syria’s Nationalist-Socialists headed by Anton Saada to Ahmed Hussein’s Young Egypt. Haj Amin was the kingpin. His association with Nazi Germany predated his avid wartime activities. His bloody 1936-39 uprising was funded by Hitler and keenly abetted by German Templars resident here since the 19th century.

    During the war local mufti disciples hoarded arms and trained to assist Rommel’s invading Afrika Korps. They harbored German paratroopers, engaged in espionage, disseminated Third Reich propaganda and greeted each other with Nazi salutes, accompanied by Heil Hitlers.

    Holocaust-denier Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah directly descends from Husseini’s forces and its ongoing ties to neo-Nazis are amply documented. Suffice it to say that Mein Kampf tops PA best-seller lists, rivaled only by The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

    But perhaps most significant are the names given to Arab newborns in 1942 to honor Rommel, who, it was hoped, would overrun the region and deliver all its Jews into their enemies’ hands. Many Israelis knew Nablus antiquities dealer Abu-Rommel. He derived his moniker from the name he conferred upon his firstborn. Salim el-Mahri, for many years chief of Fatah’s Force 17, was called Abu-Hitler because he named his eldest son after the fuehrer and his second Eichmann. Currently Kabatiyeh’s terror chieftain proudly dubs himself Abu-Hitler too.

    All the above, nonetheless, doesn’t prevent Arabs from posing as faultless underdog bystanders. They cynically draw parallels between the darkest days of the Holocaust (which maybe never was) and misfortunes they brought on themselves (largely because they aspired to continue from where Hitler left off). Delegitimizing Israel’s birth justifies cheering what Hitler did, vowing to complete his job, and yet insisting, in the same breath, that nothing untoward happened to Jews between 1939-45.

    Such inherent contradictions complement each other in the worst traditions of anti-Semitic dialectics. But Columbia’s self-congratulating free-thinkers (numerous Jews among them) dislike dwelling on uncool parochial “Jewish moans.” ”
    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1191257219018&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

25. Suzanne on October 6th, 2007 10:22 am

    @Roman Kalik, let’s go along with those who believe that the death camps were actually “just labor camps” and that those who died, died of Typhus. Then the question would rise why you would let important employees die so massively in an ongoing war where every laborer is important to keep the machine of war going? Why would you let non-suitable laborers, such as young children and elderly, enter these labor camps if the only thing they could do is die because of Typhus?

    Asking these questions to these kind of people never gave me a solid explanation which would make any sense.

    The problem only is that those people are being taken seriously by others (i noticed that in the comment section of the mentioned article by Drima, there are also some “truthers” who believe the jews were behind 9/11) and i have mixed feelings about letting them say what they want.

    On the one hand I’d like their illogical ideas to be exposed, so people can judge by themselves and realise the bullshit they are uttering, on the other hand I’d like their bullshit to end, because it is not making any sense and there will always people who believe that their bullshit is actually the truth. Look at the history of the Protocolls of Zion for example. It’s frightening!

    It’s a double feeling. Because if you prohibit them uttering bullshit, others might believe that there must be some truth in it “because why else would you try to silent them?” (it just doesnt come up in ones mind that complete bullshit is not worth to be repeated), but if you do not prohibit them uttering bullshit, more people will read and hear about their bullshit and might actually be attracted to it. Many hatesites, racist, antisemitic sites reside in US because of the proclaimed freedom of speech, but I believe there is a limit somewhere.

26. Roman Kalik on October 6th, 2007 5:59 pm

    Suzanne, the improvished and wartorn Germany truly wished to save those traitorous evil Jews, but was unable to rush doctors to the camps. The assaulting forces of evil Jew-ruled Britian, Russia and the USA had decimated the German infrastructure and populace, stretching their kind doctors thin. Oh, the poor Nazis, victims of endless agression, merely wanting peace and prosperity in their time! But no, the Evil Jews could not allow it, and thus the unclean Poles became the first pawn of the Global Jewish Conspiracy! Oh, the tragedy…

    *that’s* how this stuff works, Suzanne. The lies are thin, carefully hidden among the facts…

27. Suzanne on October 6th, 2007 8:53 pm

    now you’re just helping them

28. Roman Kalik on October 7th, 2007 5:13 am

    Heh, sorry.

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