Yes, a wedding, a damn wedding. I just watched it on Al-Jazeera a while ago. Such wonderful thuggish behavior (not behaviour). And speaking of Al-Jazeera, I think the coverage might actually be slowly changing. The aired segment was quite anti-Hamas. Usually Hamas is depicted as a pure and “holy” resistance movement.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
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Hamas have a thing about guns that aren’t theirs. And views that aren’t theirs. Personally, I view gunfire at weddings to be stupid and downright dangerous, but Hamas targeted *this* wedding for very obvious reasons.
And no, safety wasn’t a consideration.
As it appears I have heard rumors (not rumours LOL) that Hamas has outlawed carrying weapons in the streets and shooting out of celebrations etc. for the whole of Gaza and everybody.
Yes, Tse, that’s the case. But still what they did at the wedding was just disgusting.
Tse, if you think that this has anything to do with maintaining law and order, watch the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvEDj7MweBs
Firing guns at weddings is a common custom through the middle east.
Exactly, it’s common custom. And Hamas being Middle Eastern obviously knows this but that didn’t stop them from using it as an excuse to enforce their laws in a very abusive manner. They trashed a freaking wedding. They ruined a day when 2 individuals were celebrating their love for each other and screwed it up. It’s absolutely disgusting and doesn’t have much to do with enforcing the law. They’re just being the usual thugs they are.
holy or not holy
they got the guts to shoot back at israeli soldiers
holy or not holy
they got the guts to shoot back at israeli soldiers
Indeed. Israeli soldiers living in the town of Sderot, at that. They’re probably undercover, not wearing uniform or anything like that.
Oh, wait, maybe could it be that such a thing as an Israeli civilian exists? Perhaps someone should tell them that to the suicide bombers that Hamas send out as well. You know, the ones who explode in places like shopping malls, kiosks, restaurants, falafel stands, and even bakeries. And no, they seem to avoid soldiers for some reason. They go for places packed with civilians instead.
We have other names for people who deliberately target civilians on a regular basis, and who cower in, and shoot out of, civilian-packed urban areas to avoid being attacked. We call them cowards, here in Israel.
Yes Drima, i agree with you. It is a commong custom, and Hamas being middleeastern natives, they would surely know about this.
Roman, many people think of ALL israeli’s who arrived after 1948 as being non-civilian, because they are living illegally on occupied grounds (that is ALL of what was the british mandate of Palestine before 1948).
Roman, many people think of ALL israeli’s who arrived after 1948 as being non-civilian, because they are living illegally on occupied grounds (that is ALL of what was the british mandate of Palestine before 1948).
Then people who hold such views have a problem. This is the exact same world view that started the 1948 war in the first place. And I also doubt that people who hold such views bother to discriminate between those born here, those who immigrated here, or those who are children of those who were here before 1948, simply because the very people who do the expanding fandango (pardon my dark humor) don’t bother with such discriminations either.
If one holds the view that a year-old baby is not a civilian because she came here after the year 1948, or 1967, or whatever, then one is quite sick in the head.
That’s argument one. Argument two is that the definition of “illegal occupation” in the minds of these people have little to do with historical facts, and everything to do with “Jews live on these lands”. When was land occupied? 1948? The time when all the Arab states from the outside and Hajj Amin il-Husayni from the inside decided it was time for a great big massacre to restore Arab Pride?
1967? A repeat of the above, minus the Hajj, Lebanon, and the distant Arab states that had managed to get other problems of their own by then? The Palestinians could have had a state before 1948, and after 1967. This did not happen for several reasons, one of which being that only one side as of yet has gotten around the concept of “negotiations”, which was the same side that accepted the original partition plan back before 1948.
But as the side in question was Evil Zionist Colonialists, no one was paying much attention to it yet.
Roman, i agree with you that a one year old baby can never be anything but a civilian. And whoever claims otherwise is sick. Indeed.
And yes, according to much people, the land was illegally occupied in 1948, when the state of Israel was created. According to these people, the land did not belong to them, so it was thus illegal to create a jewish state there. For these people, it is like muslim creating an islamic state in Rome. By the way it is not a good way to discuss to mention massacres. I mean, we can talk for hours about Deir Yassin and other things who happended back then, but honestly it would not help us now. Do you understand what i am trying to say…
All that i am doing is try to explain the view that many people has. Including me… Or at least i had these opinions. Now, i am in a state where i am investigating the case in order to understand it. I found that many of the things i thought i knew about the case was actually mere propaganda.
I understand what you mean, and I myself am more focused on dealing with matters today rather than endlessly obsessing with the past.
But when the past is endlessly hurled into my face (not by you, but often the case with others), along with a demand for “justice”… With people like that, I tend to go for showing that part of the history that they didn’t bother reading.
Ahmad, you’re a decent guy, more honest and intelligent than most I’ve talked with. None of the above arguments were directed at you (though possibly they applied to what you used to be). Thank you for trying to show me what many think, though I must say that this view in the Arab world is already familiar to me. When it comes to owned land though, I often mention that Jews never did leave Israel (Jerusalem and Tzfadt, for example, had large Jewish populations throughout the past 2000 years, post Roman Empire expulsion) and that the Jewish Settlement in Palestine bought its land fairly. It would have remained on that land alone (losing much of it to the Arab state, in fact, as per the UN partition) if not for the great big war.
Was land reserved to Arabs alone? Or Muslims alone? That’s the sentiment I often get from Arabs, man. And it’s a sentiment I will never accept.
“I found that many of the things i thought i knew about the case was actually mere propaganda.”
Yaaay. Welcome to the club bro.
Roman: The past can only be used in this context if we agree on it. You and me probably disagree about a lot that happended in 1936 and 1948, so no reason to talk about it.
The 1948 UN partition plan would seem fair to most, and before one would understand why the Arab world waged a war, one should be familiar with the events that happended in the Arab uprising in 1936 and the status of a near civil war that were prevailing in the land at that time.
No it was’nt, and one would find that both jews, christians and muslims were living peacefully together for centuries, and deep inside my heart, i actually wish for a onestate solution - a Palestine for muslims, jews and christians who all share their passion and love for this land. But i am aware that this is impossible, and simply aint gonna happen… What do i want, then? I still dont know…
Ahmad, separate the political propaganda from the actual history, and think well on what you want for our region. Because I remember reading of the Hajj’s uprising of 1936, his later uprising in Iraq (lasted a day, but had a nice pogrom against the Jews), and of him eventually becoming a propaganda tool for Nazi Germany. Hajj Amin il-Husayni recruited Bosnian Muslims to the SS, but fortunately Bosnian Muslims were fairly decent people, so he never managed to recruit enough for a second unit.
And I also remember how many of the Palestinian refugees in Iraq today are the grandchildren of forced conscripts into the Iraqi army of 1948. They mostly lived around Haifa.
And keep in mind, there are more than five million Israeli Jews living here today. We’re not here just for the fun of it. We are here because we see this as our land, the land of our ancestors, and the center of our faith. We didn’t say “Next year in Jerusalem. Next year free!” every Passover for nothing.
Let there be two states, man. Palestinians did not see themselves as a separate national entity in the old days, there were so many parties before 1948, each with its own idea of which neighbor state to join…
Today things have changed somewhat, though one thing hasn’t. We’re still viewed as outsiders to the ME, though the Arab states certainly Arabized our country when they expelled their Jews. We’re still viewed as conquerors when anything done by, say, Syria to Lebanon, goes ignored…
Think matters through, man, and get back to me. Because we’re not planning on leaving, or on accepting a state where we’ll be a minority yet again.
You should know that there is a difference between wishing something inside oneself on the one side, and working for it to happen on the other side. Inside my heart i wish for this solution to happen, but i know it will not, so i’ll not argue for it to happen.
Well it is very typical for pro-Israelis (not in a bad way) to say: “Palestinians did not view themselves as a national entity in the old days”, thinking that support their arguments. No it does’nt! Honestly it does’nt! In 1845, maybe, there were not a real border between when one is palestinian and when one is lebanese. Well, today there is, and one should respect that.
Anyway honestly, there are even more palestinians in exile around the world. They also see the same land as the land of their ancestors, and their claim is as legitime as the israeli jews who are born in the same land. That’s how i see it, and that is what makes me feel deep inside that a One-state solution is optimal.
However it aint gonna happen. After all what has happended, the Palestinians and Israelis will never be together under one state as proposed by Qaddafi. Palestinian fanatics will not share their land with “filthy jews”, and jewish fanatics would’nt either share their land with “filthy arabs”. It is simply impossible!
A two state solution is not sufficent for most palestinians. What about palestinians whose ancestors lived in Haifa, not in Ghaza? Is the right of Haifa-jews who have been abscent for 1500 years greater than for a palestinian who have been abscent for not even a century?
I think no. Their rights are equal.
In my childhood street in Alexandria, there were a couple of Palestinian families who wished for their return to their homeland as much as jews in Europe did.
However, this is emotional arguments, and they would not help us, not even a little bit. So even though a two-state solution is not the best, it is probably the only thing that will work…
This is what catches me in doubt. I sitll do not know what to do, and i understand why a solution is so hard. However, in such a matter, one should focus on reality rather than his emotions - and all what i have been taught all my life is emotional propaganda, so i it is hard for me to seperate the facts from the fairytales… i hope you can see why it is hard for me, and for many other arabs with me.
Actually, I brought up the matter of independent Palestinian national identity today, as opposed to a kind of cultural and vaguely national identity in the past, as a step that will go towards developing an actual state. In the past, this lack of coherent identity is what gave so much power to the Hajj and his brother, the mayor of Jerusalem, as well as what made Palestinians so easily influenced by the surrounding Arab states and by notions of pan-Arabism.
To build a state, you must first have a national identity, one that is separate from the surrounding mass, otherwise one is merely exploited by the mass. Should this develop further in a positive manner (nation-building rather than extreme nationalism mixed with Islamism), then the Palestinians have a chance.
As for Khaddafi, I don’t pay much attention to him, as the man is on the wrong side of insanity, along with being a fairly messed-up dictator.
The one-state solution won’t work for a different reason, though. There are two distinct and separate national identities here, and they’re a fairly important part of many peoples’ self-definition here. Extremism has nothing to do with it, this is a matter of shared destiny, of groups viewing themselves as wholes. The first step is accepting this reality. The next… trying to work out what to do about it.
And I think I understand how you feel, man, though I guess a grandfather of mine (born and raised in the Soviet Union) had a much closer and more personal understanding than I do.
By the way, about the Haifa analogy, Jews in the Diaspora did not keep records of where they used to live. It was the idea and location of the *country* that mattered, not a specific house that no longer even exists, or this or that plot of land.
A step forward would be for Palestinians to view matters in the same way, focus on the *idea* of the state, and the people who live with you in the state, rather than a specific plot of land that must be conquered back.
Other land can be bought. A new house can be built. Borders are flexible. What matters is, does the idea exist? If it doesn’t, then very little indeed has changed.
Oh, and Jews as a whole yearned for a return home, not just European Jews.
European Jews simply had far more violent factors pushing them to get there ASAP. The vast majority of Arab Jews came here after being expelled, and the communities of Morocco, Ethiopia, and India (to name a few) came here once they saw that they had such an option.
Well, i only used the european jews as an example. And i think i basically understand what you are trying to say.
But you missed my point. The point was: What makes the jewish claim for, for instance, Haifa better than the claim of arabs who traditionally lived there? The jews of the diaspora - what makes their claim better than the palestinians who live in a similar diaspora? That they came first? But in faraonic times, before the creation of the historical Israel, the egyptians also seized much of the country. Should it return to Egypt then? What about the greek filistres who lived in Gaza? Should Gaza be returned to greeks then?
No. I understand why the jews longed for a country that they viewed as theirs, but you should also understand why palestinians does the same.
On the other hand: I do not understand why a israeli, born in Israel to israeli-born parents, in arab eyes cannot have the same love for a country as a palestinian born in Lebanon who never saw it. How can one argue that such jews should be expelled? Maybe that argument was valid in 1936, but it is not today.
Well, maybe longing for a country should be for the state and not for specific land areas, but the jews has been exiled for over 2000 years, whereas the arabs not even a century. They view it all as their land, not only Gaza and the west bank.
But! we have to deal with things the way they are right now, and right now, jews live in that land. Sad? Maybe, but hey: We cannot fight forever. Thousand of muslims has already lost their lives, not to mention the jews who lost theirs too. Of course your country is worth dying for, but a fight that will never end is’nt. After all, a smaller Palestine is better than no Palestine, is’nt it?
As i usually tell the youth when they get emotionally upset at Israel because of the the Hizb-ut-Tahreer propaganda against Israel (they are good at propaganda, honestly!):
We have fought Israel for decades now, and thousand of innocent people has lost their lives. Arab and Israeli soldiers has died on the battlefield, a great loss to their respective families. If we fight all the time, _maybe_ one day in the future we will be succesfull - who knows? Only God.
But even IF the day comes when all of the Holy Land is occupied by Muslims (which is doubtful), what will happen before that? Another thousand of innocent people would be killed, and of course, no matter how bad Israel is, it is only natural that they just cannot sit and watch while we conspire to destroy their nation. Is it really worth it? What is the reason of our struggle - is it hate towards Israel, or love towards palestinians? Of course, love should be the reason, else our struggle is’nt just. And if we love our muslim brethen in Palestine so much, should’nt we focus on securing their rights and their conditions then? We have tried war - it did’nt improve their conditions now, did it? Now it’s about time to try peace.
By the way: Do you actually live in Israel? I live in Denmark and have lived here for 15 years.
The Jewish claim is not better than the Palestinian claim, from an arbituary middleman viewpoint, yet I don’t live in such a viewpoint. The center of my faith, the center of my dreams, the one and only hope we as a people have for an independent life, is here.
And yet, we could have shared this land. Jews living in this land, and building a state in this land, did not mean that no one else could live in this land. Far from it.
As for your second point, I respect and wholeheartedly support your view. I just wish that it was more widespread. And yeah, Hizb-ut-Tahreer are good at propaganda, and I hear they’re starting to gain a powerful presence in the Palestinian Authority.
And yes, I live in Israel. My parents and I immigrated from the Soviet Union in 1990, when the gates were finally opened. We handed in our passports, signed away any right we had to citizenship, and were registered as traitors for immigrating to Israel.
I was five years old at the time. A little over half a year here, and I found myself sitting in a sealed room, with a gas mask on me, not quite understanding what was going on.
Later, I found out what an Iraqi SCUD is.
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