That is good and just goes to show that everyone fears the Iranian nutters more than they fear each other.
I do object to the term “Arab peace plan” though as I cannot see how this plan is any different from the plan the Israeli Knesset proposed just after the 1967 war.
I suspect that Syria (and perhaps Sudan) will boycott the plan/meeting.
Most Arab countries fear Shia extremists more than anything (for good reason too) and Israel is a good ally in the defence of Sunni Islam. Saudi Arabia is in this to re-affirm that their version of “Islam” is Sunni, of course.
I think we will likely end up with Israel giving up Gaza and the West Bank but keeping Jerusalem (there is simply no reason to give the old city to anybody) and the Golan, both of which Israel annexed in the 1980s.
As for the refugees, I still propose the balanced solution: Arab countries pay for the Jewish refugees, Israel pays for the Arab refugees. Their numbers were very comparable. I would agree with letting the Arab League decide how much the refugees (or rather the governments representing them, i.e. Israel on the one side and the PLO on the other) should get. I only insist that an Arab refugee be worth as much as a Jewish refugee.
Whether or not Arab countries should pay compensation for calling on Palestinian Arabs to flee Israel (or even participate in the attack) can also be discussed, but I would be perfectly happy if the question was merely mentioned and would accept it if Israel was held solely responsible for the Arab refugee problem financially.
I also believe that Israel and the PLO owe reparations to Lebanon for fighting their war in the country without being asked to; and that Syria owes reparations to Israel and the PLO for supporting Hamas, to Lebanon and Israel for supporting Hizbullah, and to Iraq for supporting another selection of terrorists.
Egypt and Jordan owe Israel nothing as peace treaties have alread been signed.
But other Arab countries involved in attacks on Israel and attempted invasions should probably pay. Perhaps Israel will not only give up land but also (legally existing) reparation demands for peace?
Could this be treated as a “contest” between Israel’s interpretation of Judaism and the Arabs’ interpretation of Islam? Who is willing to give up more for peace?
an implied demand to resettle within Israeli borders the Palestinian families who became refugees from the 1948 war that followed Israel’s creation.
Keeps getting inserted into every peace plan, there will be no settlement. I assume that is a deal breaker, since Israel would cease to exist if it accepted all the (millions?) of descendants of the 1948 refugees.
Andrew, you propose a good solution to this issue, but what makes you think Arabs would ever accept it? Israeli Jews have no interest in returning to Arab lands, and the Arabs do not want to have to absorb all teh Palestinians currently living in “camps” throughout the ME. Seems like Arab motivation to go along with a reparation plan to solve the problem is zero, even as reasonable as it sounds.
“Andrew, you propose a good solution to this issue, but what makes you think Arabs would ever accept it?”
I do not think that they would accept it.
“Israeli Jews have no interest in returning to Arab lands, and the Arabs do not want to have to absorb all teh Palestinians currently living in “camps” throughout the ME.”
No Jew would want to go back to an Arab land, much like the Kurds didn’t want to be slaughtered and discriminated against by the Arab governments of Syria and Iraq. (For some reason the Arab refugees do not fear such a destiny in Israel.)
Compensation is the only way to go, if something has to be done.
“Seems like Arab motivation to go along with a reparation plan to solve the problem is zero, even as reasonable as it sounds.”
Very good. So the subject should be brought up so that the world can see what Israel’s and the Arabs’ attitude is towards the poor refugees.
The Arab countries have used the refugee issue as a propaganda tool for decades. If the subject was really brought up and the world learns that the Arab countries:
a) are willing to give every possible assistance to the Arab refugees short of actual help and
b) have no interest in treating Jewish refugees with the same respect with which they expect Israel to treat Arab refugees
then the world would understand some of the problems Israel has to deal with and we will be a bit closer to peace, since the international community might pressure both sides instead of just Israel.
It will also help if Israel would point out that they had proposed the same deal just after the 1967 war and that “the Israeli people are extremely glad that the Arab side has decided to take the proposal onboard even if it took them many years” (or some such quote).
All this reminds me of this ancient joke:
Just before the Camp David negotioations, the Israeli prime minister asks everyone to listen and says:
“I have only today heard that a new archaeological discovery tells of a story according to which the first Jew who entered the land of Israel from Egypt took a bath in the river Jordan and then discovered, when he came back from the water, that a Palestinian stole his cloths.”
Arafat hears the words and almost explodes in pure anger:
“That is a typical Jewish lie. That Zionist criminal just blames Palestinians for everything. How could a Palestinian have committed this crime? When he claims this event happened there were no Palestinians in the land!”
And the Israeli prime minister answers:
“And with this in mind let us commence the negotiations.”
The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world and how everything should be. Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return! What does the word refugee mean? It is their right to return or how in the world is Israel trying to justify it’s very existance (don’t you claim that all of you where exiled from Palestine and it that is why you HAD to return?)…
Why is it so easy for you to forget that you took this land by force? That your grandfathers came to it from foriegn lands? And yet you talk as if the Palestinians are the ones who just walked in…
There will never be any real peace unless East Jerusalem, Golan, West Bank and all land ’stolen by force’ is returned to it’s rightful owners and that the refugees are allowed safe passage to their land. Or this conflict can go on forever, and trust me my friend even Pharaoh had a day; Israel will not have the upper hand forever…
True Sadat and Rabin gave their lives for peace and will always be remembered; but a just and lasting peace is overdue.
The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world and how everything should be. Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return!
Perhaps we’re talking about the so-called Right of Return in this manner because the Arab states have kept the Palestinians as refugees down to the fourth generation. Perhaps we’re talking about the Right of Return in this manner because its entire point is to create a Palestinian majority in both a newly-founded state of Palestine and in Israel, thus annulling Israel.
It is their right to return or how in the world is Israel trying to justify it’s very existance (don’t you claim that all of you where exiled from Palestine and it that is why you HAD to return?)…
….no.
Why is it so easy for you to forget that you took this land by force? That your grandfathers came to it from foriegn lands? And yet you talk as if the Palestinians are the ones who just walked in…
Why is it so easy for you to talk about who took whose land by force when you forget who started the great big War of Liberation in 1948. You know, back when there wasn’t anything to liberate yet. Back when there was an offer for a two-state solution by the UN. Back when one side accepted it. As usual.
Well, I’m so sorry if us Israelis wanting to keep a country of our own bothers you so much. Perhaps you think two large populations with a very hostile history can live together in the same country without violence. Perhaps you think that the resulting Palestine and PalIsrael will not unite in short order.
Or perhaps you think we should all just bugger off to “where we came from”, eh?
There will never be any real peace unless East Jerusalem, Golan, West Bank and all land ’stolen by force’ is returned to it’s rightful owners and that the refugees are allowed safe passage to their land.
So it’s bye-bye Israeli statehood, then? After all, according to the pre-1967 definitions all of Israel was ’stolen by force’. Gee, thank you for your noble spirit of compromise and coexistence.
You need to read a history book. The history of Israel they tought you in whereever you come from is a bit flawed to say the least. You might not want to base your opinion on it.
I don’t blame you for it. I have myself learned a few odd things about Israel in school.
Also,
“Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return!”
I proposed compensation for the lot of them. What is your proposal? Send millions of hostile Arabs into Israel and millions of Jews into Arab countries? Can you remind yourself what happens with minorities in Arab countries?
The reason the “refugees” left Israel was because the Arab governments told them to leave and because Israel didn’t want the traitors back after the war of independence.
Let me ask you something, and please answer this.
Do you believe that the UN should set up an organisation to help Jewish refugees from Arab countries?
“What does the word refugee mean?”
That’s an easy one. The definition used in this conflict is, I believe:
“refugee”
noun
Any non-Jewish person who actually fled some-whence or is remotely related to one who might have.
And while we are at it:
“Palestine”
noun
The only country in the world which has never had a significant Jewish population in its history (see “Jerusalem”).
“Palestinian”
noun
A non-Jewish inhabitant of Palestine (see “German” in Hitler’s dictionary) and any descendant living anywhere else. Some Palestinians are Egyptians. Most Palestinians are Muslims. There are Christian Palestinians, but they are often Palestinians for a shorter time.
“anti-Semitism”
noun
Hostility or prejudice against Jews in the past and theoretically in the present unless targeted at Israel. In fact, classic anti-semitism and its major crimes ended on May 15 1948.
And finally:
“peace”
noun
A scenario in which ethnic and religious minorities are slaughtered by nationalist dictators without hope of rescue. This constitutes stability and is a good thing (see “progressive”).
It is perhaps sad, but I often feel good about people like Sudani.
Israel does many bad things and many people suffer because of Israel’s bad decisions or violent behaviour.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand that nobody can make consistently good decisions and I do feel that violence is the only method Israel has to defend herself against a second holocaust. If Israel should lose even one war, the world would have to deal with another five million dead Jews (and nobody would have seen it coming despite the open calls for their death etc.).
However, it is much easier to use that argument to defend Israel, when criticisms of Israel are so clearly based on ignorance and anti-Semitism.
“Israel wants to take over the world.”
“Zionism is racism.”
“Jews love killing Arabs.”
All those claims made by Israel’s enemies do convince many Europeans and Americans (for some reason), but they also convince me that perhaps everything Israel’s enemies say is stupid nonsense and can be safely ignored.
When it comes to silly claims, Israel has had to deal with a lot, including a “Palestinian Holocaust” (which miraculously failed to decimate the Arab population), the famous “Zionist-controlled American government” (which failed to support Israel when Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal), the infamous “Israeli flag means that Israel wants to rule the area from the Nile to the Euphrates” (a symbolism no Jew has ever heard of outside Arab claims), and an “international law” (which consists solely of statements by Israel’s enemies about Israel and doesn’t seem to be apply to any other country).
There are for example the two most famous “international law”:
“Occupation is illegal.”
and
“Acquisition of land by war is illegal.”
Both are “laws” that seem to apply to Israel but not, for example, to Egypt (when it happens to occupy Gaza) or Morocco (when it happens to occupy Western Sahara) or Russia (when it happens to occupy Lithuania or Koenigsberg).
They also don’t apply to China (Tibet), Poland (Silesia), Jordan (West Bank), or any country that just happens to want to attack Israel and make it a part of “Greater Syria”.
And then there is the well-known “Palestinian Cause”, an ideal widely understood as a worthy goal, even though its most vocal supporters support genocide and war. In fact, I have not seen a definition of the “Palestinian Cause” which did not include genocide or ethnic cleansing and war. But it remains a worthy goal and an ideal to support because the “Palestinian” people have a value that is higher than the Jews’s lives but not high enough to let them out of the refugee camps.
What I understand now is that war is bad when it goes against Arab nationalism in defence of a Kurdish minority but good when it is against Israel.
And those that don’t care about the fate of the Kurds in Arab countries and would like to see Israel destroyed are the peace protesters, I think; despite their calls for war on Israel.
You know…I have been through this argument a thousand times…and it always goes nowhere…
But one fact I just can’t see how anybody could argue…The UN voted to create the state of Israel in 1947-48. Israel accepted a tiny little place that did not include: Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza or Golan. The Arabs rejected it and attacked. 1967 was yet another moronic move by the Arabs that led to the current situation of Gaza, Golan, etc.
Palestine?…”Palestine” was British and then Turkish for since the 1500’s…which Palestinian state are you talking about? Yes there were locals living there…including Jews.
The fact is…as long as there are extremist, terrorist, rejectionist Arabs dominating the scene…then nope…ain’t gonna be peace…and I place the blame 99.5% on the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims that continue to perpetuate and conflict.
By the way…if you are Sudanese and so worried about refugee treatment…have you looked in your own backyard? A place called Darfur? And funny…these MUSLIMS and climbing all over each other to get into…drum roll please….ISRAEL…the Muslim hater!!!
I love it…
Dude THINK…THINK just a little bit.
Any Israeli’s that want to take over the world killed any Sudanese in the past 1,000 years? Any Muslim Sudanese killed 1000’s and 1000’s of Christian AND Muslim Sudanese in the past 5 years?
Hmm?
Don’t want to disturb your ideas with a little truth…go read the Elders of Zion…you will feel much better.
Let’s not forget that Jerusalem (a Jewish-majority city) was supposed to become a UN-controlled international teritory until it was occupied and later annexed by Israel and Transjordan.
Transjordan immediately proceeded in expelling all Jews from East-Jerusalem, if I recall correctly. (There is another refugee problem to whine about.)
Later Transjordan attacked Israel (again) and lost East-Jerusalem, fair and square. These things happen.
Was it ok for Jordan to expell Jerusalem’s Jews? Would it be ok for Israel to expel Jerusalem’s Arabs? Why? Why not?
Was it ok for Jordan to expell Hevron’s Jews in 1949? Was it ok for Jews to settle in Hevron once Hevron fell (back) to Israel?
Please answer at least that one question of mine…why are SUDANESE…SUDANESE paying off Bedouins and risking their lives to sneak into ISRAEL…begging to get out of Sudan AND Egypt…
I know some facts…LOTS of Sudanese have been killed by Sudanese…lots.
Some of these refugees have been murdered by Egyptian police during police riots…
Almost ALL complain about terrible treatment in Egypt
Some that illegally entered Israel are being held in prisons…yet are begging to stay in PRISON rather than be returned to Egypt…
This is verifiable truth Sudani…and yet you have to balls to talk about how horrible Israel is and wants her way with the world etc.
Make an attempt to think…not just repeat the crap you have been fed. Just use a little logic here…just a little…Name me ONE of the following who have been killed by Israeli’s lately:
Persian
Sudanese
Saudi
Iraqi
Mororrcan
Yemen
Baharaini
Qatari
Omani
Turk
Kurd
Afgani
Pakistani
Kuwaiti
Approximately….”0″
Now…how many of the above have been killed by Arabs/Muslims…hmmm. And the likes of al Queida, Taliban, Iran, Hizboallah, of course, are trying to impress THEIR will upon the world?
THINK…really just think a little bit?
I could just here the Kuwaiti tourist in…ah…Hawaii…Ahmed…look Israeli tourists….RUN RUN for YOUR LIFE AhMED…RUUNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
In Yiddish we say “oy gut en himmel”
Hebrew…”ata pasichi?”
English….”DUDE…like whatEVER”
Here is just one of many many many stories…but of course…this is just a Zionist plot to humilate the good folks of Khroutom:
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Up to 20 Sudanese refugees each Israel’s border each day.
Security forces don’t know how to deal with the growing number in the South
[Daily Edition]
Jerusalem Post - Jerusalem
Author: SHEERA CLAIRE FRENKEL, Rebecca Anna Stoil contributed to this report
Date: Jun 20, 2007
Section: News
Text Word Count: 1012
Abstract (Document Summary)
“Israel has no primary legislation, no legislation whatsoever on refugee rights,” said Ilan Lonai, a campaign coordinator for Amnesty International. “We are working for legislation that most first world countries have already had for years.” Approximately 20 people were caught by IDF and Border Police units overnight trying to cross the border between Israel and Egypt. In the early morning hours, MDA teams were also called to the border area when a Sudanese refugee went into labor after making her way across the barren desert border.
“We find the refugees wandering the streets of Beersheba. They are just dropped off there, left by the police or the army or something, in rags and sometimes sick,” said Elisheva Milikowsky, a student at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, who began a student organization to aid refugees. “We take them in, try to find somewhere for them to spend the night, and then get them in touch with shelters. We need help, though. We pay for the medicine ourselves, for the food, for whatever they need. We are already poor students, and this comes out of our own pockets.”
Israel has been receiving refugees from African countries, including Ghana, Eritrea, and the Ivory Coast area, for more than a decade. While some remain in Israel and receive work permits, others are returned to their countries of origin. In recent years, however, a growing number of refugees fleeing persecution in Sudan have traveled through Egypt to Israel’s southern border. Since Israel has no diplomatic ties with Sudan, and the refugees would likely be killed if returned, the Israeli government has remained undecided about how to treat the refugees, and the refugees have been left in limbo. Amnesty International estimates that there are currently 850 Sudanese refugees in Israel.
I think that what with all the refugees trying to get into Israel from Sudan and Gaza, perhaps what the middle east needs is not one Israel less, but another country like Israel.
The Kurds are working on one, of course.
It’s getting ridiculous. Israel has already absorbed all the Jews from Arab countries, most of the Iranian Jews, the odd bedouin from the disputed territories, and now ever more Sudanese Christians and Muslims.
When the Arabs talk about the refugee problem, they are talking about the Arabs they told to leave Israel and won’t absorb.
But the real refugee problem is the fact that Israel cannot absorb the vast number of people who want to live in the country.
It just bothers me to NO END why guys like Sudani…who is obviously bright…chant the standard slogans yet can’t or won’t see obvious truths that mess with their world view…
Hundreds are trying to get IN…and they ain’t trying to sneak into Gaza. DO YOU HEAR THAT SUDANI… apparently these Palestinians you are SO worried about don’t give a SHIT about these Muslim brothers…These Sudanese are trying to ESCAPE from ARABS and be protected by the horrible JEWS…A FACT…
In fact…I have a very close Darfurian friend who has family in Egypt refugee camps who would leave for Israel in two seconds if they could.
Wake up and smell the achwah!!! Stop the slogans and sterotypes and repeating these absurd lies. Look at Israel on a map…a tiny country with 5 million people and they are trying to run the world? Do you have ANY common sense?
I find it most fascinating that those who “uncover” the Jewish or Israeli conspiracies are always those who know very little about Judaism, have met few Jews, and have never been in Israel.
Sudani,
I suggest you visit Israel and see for yourself. You will find synagogues, churches, and mosques standing next to each other. You will also find shopping malls with entrances that look like airport security gates, because for some reason Israel’s rule over the world does not even extend to getting Arabs to stop trying to murder Jews in their home land.
If you cannot visit Israel, ask your government to change that, because you cannot fight an enemy that you do not know. If they insist that you must not know, you will have learned, perhaps, who the enemy really is.
Muslims can practice Islam freely in Israel. Are you under the impression that Jews would be allowed to practice Judaism freely in Sudan, Egypt, or Saudi Arabia?
Is it not odd that EVERYONE wants to go to Israel? The Arab Jews wanted to get to Israel, the victims of the Sudanese government want to get to Israel, even the Palestinian Arabs want to _return_ to Israel. It seems like the entire Arab world has but two goals: individuals want to live in Israel and the mob wants to destroy it.
Think for a moment. What if Israel didn’t exist any more… what would happen to the 3-4 million descendants of those Jews who fled Arab countries? Will you resettle them in the countries they fled? Will you slaughter them? Will you deport them to Europe or America?
(Do you think Europe and America would keep them in camps for 60 years?)
What would happen to the Israeli Arabs? Will you slaughter them too? Will they be able to keep their high standard of living or will you force them down to the normal Arab standard?
What would happen to Christians? Can they continue to worship freely or will it be like Egypt, or even worse, Saudi Arabia?
What will you do to Jerusalem? Destroy the Jewish Quarter again? Perhaps destroy the temple wall? Will you use Jewish tombstones to build another hotel?
What’s so important about getting rid of 5 million Jews? You already got rid of all the Jews in the Arab countries. Why not leave them alone in that one tiny place, Israel?
I often see this scene in my mind. A suicide bomber has just arrived at the gates of heaven. And Islam is true and Muhammed was a prophet.
An angel, a gate keeper no doubt, asks him a few routine questions (he already knows the answers) that stand between the candidate and heaven.
He tells him that the Qur’an says that G-d told the people of Israel, through the prophet Moses, that they must live in the holy land and not turn back. He tells him that Islam forbids murder and suicide. And he asks him how he died.
And the candidate tells the angel that he died when committing suicide, trying to murder Jews who lived in the holy land. And that he expects to go to heaven for that.
And the angel asks him whether he was drunk at the time.
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Name: Drima Abu Hamdan.
Location: Deep, Deep Down the Orgasmic Rabbit Hole of Epistemology.
Bio of Awesomeness: Traditionalist Muslim, Turned Free Thinking Sufi Lover. Social Media Consultant to NY Times Best-Selling Authors. Author of Upcoming Memoir. Belief Systems Junkie. Afro-Arab Libertarian Music Freak. Vehemently Anti-Islamist. Loud and Drop Dead Gorgeous. The High Priest of Mischievous "Blasphemy." Read on and Have Your Brain Spun. You've Been Warned!
"If I don't have the freedom to disbelieve, I cannot believe."
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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear."
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{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
That is good and just goes to show that everyone fears the Iranian nutters more than they fear each other.
I do object to the term “Arab peace plan” though as I cannot see how this plan is any different from the plan the Israeli Knesset proposed just after the 1967 war.
I suspect that Syria (and perhaps Sudan) will boycott the plan/meeting.
Most Arab countries fear Shia extremists more than anything (for good reason too) and Israel is a good ally in the defence of Sunni Islam. Saudi Arabia is in this to re-affirm that their version of “Islam” is Sunni, of course.
I think we will likely end up with Israel giving up Gaza and the West Bank but keeping Jerusalem (there is simply no reason to give the old city to anybody) and the Golan, both of which Israel annexed in the 1980s.
As for the refugees, I still propose the balanced solution: Arab countries pay for the Jewish refugees, Israel pays for the Arab refugees. Their numbers were very comparable. I would agree with letting the Arab League decide how much the refugees (or rather the governments representing them, i.e. Israel on the one side and the PLO on the other) should get. I only insist that an Arab refugee be worth as much as a Jewish refugee.
Whether or not Arab countries should pay compensation for calling on Palestinian Arabs to flee Israel (or even participate in the attack) can also be discussed, but I would be perfectly happy if the question was merely mentioned and would accept it if Israel was held solely responsible for the Arab refugee problem financially.
I also believe that Israel and the PLO owe reparations to Lebanon for fighting their war in the country without being asked to; and that Syria owes reparations to Israel and the PLO for supporting Hamas, to Lebanon and Israel for supporting Hizbullah, and to Iraq for supporting another selection of terrorists.
Egypt and Jordan owe Israel nothing as peace treaties have alread been signed.
But other Arab countries involved in attacks on Israel and attempted invasions should probably pay. Perhaps Israel will not only give up land but also (legally existing) reparation demands for peace?
Could this be treated as a “contest” between Israel’s interpretation of Judaism and the Arabs’ interpretation of Islam? Who is willing to give up more for peace?
Sadat and Rabin gave their lives for peace.
An interesting development, and somewhat symbolic as well. Though I’d like to hear of more practical developments.
Well, it is interesting, but as long as this:
an implied demand to resettle within Israeli borders the Palestinian families who became refugees from the 1948 war that followed Israel’s creation.
Keeps getting inserted into every peace plan, there will be no settlement. I assume that is a deal breaker, since Israel would cease to exist if it accepted all the (millions?) of descendants of the 1948 refugees.
Andrew, you propose a good solution to this issue, but what makes you think Arabs would ever accept it? Israeli Jews have no interest in returning to Arab lands, and the Arabs do not want to have to absorb all teh Palestinians currently living in “camps” throughout the ME. Seems like Arab motivation to go along with a reparation plan to solve the problem is zero, even as reasonable as it sounds.
“Andrew, you propose a good solution to this issue, but what makes you think Arabs would ever accept it?”
I do not think that they would accept it.
“Israeli Jews have no interest in returning to Arab lands, and the Arabs do not want to have to absorb all teh Palestinians currently living in “camps” throughout the ME.”
No Jew would want to go back to an Arab land, much like the Kurds didn’t want to be slaughtered and discriminated against by the Arab governments of Syria and Iraq. (For some reason the Arab refugees do not fear such a destiny in Israel.)
Compensation is the only way to go, if something has to be done.
“Seems like Arab motivation to go along with a reparation plan to solve the problem is zero, even as reasonable as it sounds.”
Very good. So the subject should be brought up so that the world can see what Israel’s and the Arabs’ attitude is towards the poor refugees.
The Arab countries have used the refugee issue as a propaganda tool for decades. If the subject was really brought up and the world learns that the Arab countries:
a) are willing to give every possible assistance to the Arab refugees short of actual help and
b) have no interest in treating Jewish refugees with the same respect with which they expect Israel to treat Arab refugees
then the world would understand some of the problems Israel has to deal with and we will be a bit closer to peace, since the international community might pressure both sides instead of just Israel.
It will also help if Israel would point out that they had proposed the same deal just after the 1967 war and that “the Israeli people are extremely glad that the Arab side has decided to take the proposal onboard even if it took them many years” (or some such quote).
All this reminds me of this ancient joke:
Just before the Camp David negotioations, the Israeli prime minister asks everyone to listen and says:
“I have only today heard that a new archaeological discovery tells of a story according to which the first Jew who entered the land of Israel from Egypt took a bath in the river Jordan and then discovered, when he came back from the water, that a Palestinian stole his cloths.”
Arafat hears the words and almost explodes in pure anger:
“That is a typical Jewish lie. That Zionist criminal just blames Palestinians for everything. How could a Palestinian have committed this crime? When he claims this event happened there were no Palestinians in the land!”
And the Israeli prime minister answers:
“And with this in mind let us commence the negotiations.”
Drima…nice to see you back…
Arab League? I don’t know…if there is a will…there is a way…I don’t know about the will.
The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world and how everything should be. Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return! What does the word refugee mean? It is their right to return or how in the world is Israel trying to justify it’s very existance (don’t you claim that all of you where exiled from Palestine and it that is why you HAD to return?)…
Why is it so easy for you to forget that you took this land by force? That your grandfathers came to it from foriegn lands? And yet you talk as if the Palestinians are the ones who just walked in…
There will never be any real peace unless East Jerusalem, Golan, West Bank and all land ’stolen by force’ is returned to it’s rightful owners and that the refugees are allowed safe passage to their land. Or this conflict can go on forever, and trust me my friend even Pharaoh had a day; Israel will not have the upper hand forever…
True Sadat and Rabin gave their lives for peace and will always be remembered; but a just and lasting peace is overdue.
Shalom
The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world and how everything should be. Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return!
Perhaps we’re talking about the so-called Right of Return in this manner because the Arab states have kept the Palestinians as refugees down to the fourth generation. Perhaps we’re talking about the Right of Return in this manner because its entire point is to create a Palestinian majority in both a newly-founded state of Palestine and in Israel, thus annulling Israel.
It is their right to return or how in the world is Israel trying to justify it’s very existance (don’t you claim that all of you where exiled from Palestine and it that is why you HAD to return?)…
….no.
Why is it so easy for you to forget that you took this land by force? That your grandfathers came to it from foriegn lands? And yet you talk as if the Palestinians are the ones who just walked in…
Why is it so easy for you to talk about who took whose land by force when you forget who started the great big War of Liberation in 1948. You know, back when there wasn’t anything to liberate yet. Back when there was an offer for a two-state solution by the UN. Back when one side accepted it. As usual.
Well, I’m so sorry if us Israelis wanting to keep a country of our own bothers you so much. Perhaps you think two large populations with a very hostile history can live together in the same country without violence. Perhaps you think that the resulting Palestine and PalIsrael will not unite in short order.
Or perhaps you think we should all just bugger off to “where we came from”, eh?
There will never be any real peace unless East Jerusalem, Golan, West Bank and all land ’stolen by force’ is returned to it’s rightful owners and that the refugees are allowed safe passage to their land.
So it’s bye-bye Israeli statehood, then? After all, according to the pre-1967 definitions all of Israel was ’stolen by force’. Gee, thank you for your noble spirit of compromise and coexistence.
Hm…
Sudani,
You need to read a history book. The history of Israel they tought you in whereever you come from is a bit flawed to say the least. You might not want to base your opinion on it.
I don’t blame you for it. I have myself learned a few odd things about Israel in school.
Also,
“Just look at how you are talking about the refugees right of return!”
I proposed compensation for the lot of them. What is your proposal? Send millions of hostile Arabs into Israel and millions of Jews into Arab countries? Can you remind yourself what happens with minorities in Arab countries?
The reason the “refugees” left Israel was because the Arab governments told them to leave and because Israel didn’t want the traitors back after the war of independence.
Let me ask you something, and please answer this.
Do you believe that the UN should set up an organisation to help Jewish refugees from Arab countries?
“What does the word refugee mean?”
That’s an easy one. The definition used in this conflict is, I believe:
“refugee”
noun
Any non-Jewish person who actually fled some-whence or is remotely related to one who might have.
And while we are at it:
“Palestine”
noun
The only country in the world which has never had a significant Jewish population in its history (see “Jerusalem”).
“Palestinian”
noun
A non-Jewish inhabitant of Palestine (see “German” in Hitler’s dictionary) and any descendant living anywhere else. Some Palestinians are Egyptians. Most Palestinians are Muslims. There are Christian Palestinians, but they are often Palestinians for a shorter time.
“anti-Semitism”
noun
Hostility or prejudice against Jews in the past and theoretically in the present unless targeted at Israel. In fact, classic anti-semitism and its major crimes ended on May 15 1948.
And finally:
“peace”
noun
A scenario in which ethnic and religious minorities are slaughtered by nationalist dictators without hope of rescue. This constitutes stability and is a good thing (see “progressive”).
All taken from:
http://forums.joeuser.com/?forumid=258&aid=81628
“The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world”
There will be peace once the Arabs love the children more than they hate the Jews.
That is much closer to the sad truth.
“The reason there will be no peace is beacuse Israel thinks it owns the world”
There will be peace once the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews.
That is much closer to the sad truth.
Roman Kalik,
It is perhaps sad, but I often feel good about people like Sudani.
Israel does many bad things and many people suffer because of Israel’s bad decisions or violent behaviour.
Don’t get me wrong, I understand that nobody can make consistently good decisions and I do feel that violence is the only method Israel has to defend herself against a second holocaust. If Israel should lose even one war, the world would have to deal with another five million dead Jews (and nobody would have seen it coming despite the open calls for their death etc.).
However, it is much easier to use that argument to defend Israel, when criticisms of Israel are so clearly based on ignorance and anti-Semitism.
“Israel wants to take over the world.”
“Zionism is racism.”
“Jews love killing Arabs.”
All those claims made by Israel’s enemies do convince many Europeans and Americans (for some reason), but they also convince me that perhaps everything Israel’s enemies say is stupid nonsense and can be safely ignored.
When it comes to silly claims, Israel has had to deal with a lot, including a “Palestinian Holocaust” (which miraculously failed to decimate the Arab population), the famous “Zionist-controlled American government” (which failed to support Israel when Egypt nationalised the Suez Canal), the infamous “Israeli flag means that Israel wants to rule the area from the Nile to the Euphrates” (a symbolism no Jew has ever heard of outside Arab claims), and an “international law” (which consists solely of statements by Israel’s enemies about Israel and doesn’t seem to be apply to any other country).
There are for example the two most famous “international law”:
“Occupation is illegal.”
and
“Acquisition of land by war is illegal.”
Both are “laws” that seem to apply to Israel but not, for example, to Egypt (when it happens to occupy Gaza) or Morocco (when it happens to occupy Western Sahara) or Russia (when it happens to occupy Lithuania or Koenigsberg).
They also don’t apply to China (Tibet), Poland (Silesia), Jordan (West Bank), or any country that just happens to want to attack Israel and make it a part of “Greater Syria”.
And then there is the well-known “Palestinian Cause”, an ideal widely understood as a worthy goal, even though its most vocal supporters support genocide and war. In fact, I have not seen a definition of the “Palestinian Cause” which did not include genocide or ethnic cleansing and war. But it remains a worthy goal and an ideal to support because the “Palestinian” people have a value that is higher than the Jews’s lives but not high enough to let them out of the refugee camps.
What I understand now is that war is bad when it goes against Arab nationalism in defence of a Kurdish minority but good when it is against Israel.
And those that don’t care about the fate of the Kurds in Arab countries and would like to see Israel destroyed are the peace protesters, I think; despite their calls for war on Israel.
Sudani-
Where did you study history? Gaza?
You know…I have been through this argument a thousand times…and it always goes nowhere…
But one fact I just can’t see how anybody could argue…The UN voted to create the state of Israel in 1947-48. Israel accepted a tiny little place that did not include: Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza or Golan. The Arabs rejected it and attacked. 1967 was yet another moronic move by the Arabs that led to the current situation of Gaza, Golan, etc.
Palestine?…”Palestine” was British and then Turkish for since the 1500’s…which Palestinian state are you talking about? Yes there were locals living there…including Jews.
The fact is…as long as there are extremist, terrorist, rejectionist Arabs dominating the scene…then nope…ain’t gonna be peace…and I place the blame 99.5% on the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims that continue to perpetuate and conflict.
Nice try
Sudani-
By the way…if you are Sudanese and so worried about refugee treatment…have you looked in your own backyard? A place called Darfur? And funny…these MUSLIMS and climbing all over each other to get into…drum roll please….ISRAEL…the Muslim hater!!!
I love it…
Dude THINK…THINK just a little bit.
Any Israeli’s that want to take over the world killed any Sudanese in the past 1,000 years? Any Muslim Sudanese killed 1000’s and 1000’s of Christian AND Muslim Sudanese in the past 5 years?
Hmm?
Don’t want to disturb your ideas with a little truth…go read the Elders of Zion…you will feel much better.
Let’s not forget that Jerusalem (a Jewish-majority city) was supposed to become a UN-controlled international teritory until it was occupied and later annexed by Israel and Transjordan.
Transjordan immediately proceeded in expelling all Jews from East-Jerusalem, if I recall correctly. (There is another refugee problem to whine about.)
Later Transjordan attacked Israel (again) and lost East-Jerusalem, fair and square. These things happen.
Was it ok for Jordan to expell Jerusalem’s Jews? Would it be ok for Israel to expel Jerusalem’s Arabs? Why? Why not?
Was it ok for Jordan to expell Hevron’s Jews in 1949? Was it ok for Jews to settle in Hevron once Hevron fell (back) to Israel?
Sudani-
Please answer at least that one question of mine…why are SUDANESE…SUDANESE paying off Bedouins and risking their lives to sneak into ISRAEL…begging to get out of Sudan AND Egypt…
I know some facts…LOTS of Sudanese have been killed by Sudanese…lots.
Some of these refugees have been murdered by Egyptian police during police riots…
Almost ALL complain about terrible treatment in Egypt
Some that illegally entered Israel are being held in prisons…yet are begging to stay in PRISON rather than be returned to Egypt…
This is verifiable truth Sudani…and yet you have to balls to talk about how horrible Israel is and wants her way with the world etc.
Make an attempt to think…not just repeat the crap you have been fed. Just use a little logic here…just a little…Name me ONE of the following who have been killed by Israeli’s lately:
Persian
Sudanese
Saudi
Iraqi
Mororrcan
Yemen
Baharaini
Qatari
Omani
Turk
Kurd
Afgani
Pakistani
Kuwaiti
Approximately….”0″
Now…how many of the above have been killed by Arabs/Muslims…hmmm. And the likes of al Queida, Taliban, Iran, Hizboallah, of course, are trying to impress THEIR will upon the world?
THINK…really just think a little bit?
I could just here the Kuwaiti tourist in…ah…Hawaii…Ahmed…look Israeli tourists….RUN RUN for YOUR LIFE AhMED…RUUNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
In Yiddish we say “oy gut en himmel”
Hebrew…”ata pasichi?”
English….”DUDE…like whatEVER”
Sudani…
Here is just one of many many many stories…but of course…this is just a Zionist plot to humilate the good folks of Khroutom:
Document
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Buy Complete Document: Abstract Abstract Full Text Full Text
Up to 20 Sudanese refugees each Israel’s border each day.
Security forces don’t know how to deal with the growing number in the South
[Daily Edition]
Jerusalem Post - Jerusalem
Author: SHEERA CLAIRE FRENKEL, Rebecca Anna Stoil contributed to this report
Date: Jun 20, 2007
Section: News
Text Word Count: 1012
Abstract (Document Summary)
“Israel has no primary legislation, no legislation whatsoever on refugee rights,” said Ilan Lonai, a campaign coordinator for Amnesty International. “We are working for legislation that most first world countries have already had for years.” Approximately 20 people were caught by IDF and Border Police units overnight trying to cross the border between Israel and Egypt. In the early morning hours, MDA teams were also called to the border area when a Sudanese refugee went into labor after making her way across the barren desert border.
“We find the refugees wandering the streets of Beersheba. They are just dropped off there, left by the police or the army or something, in rags and sometimes sick,” said Elisheva Milikowsky, a student at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, who began a student organization to aid refugees. “We take them in, try to find somewhere for them to spend the night, and then get them in touch with shelters. We need help, though. We pay for the medicine ourselves, for the food, for whatever they need. We are already poor students, and this comes out of our own pockets.”
Israel has been receiving refugees from African countries, including Ghana, Eritrea, and the Ivory Coast area, for more than a decade. While some remain in Israel and receive work permits, others are returned to their countries of origin. In recent years, however, a growing number of refugees fleeing persecution in Sudan have traveled through Egypt to Israel’s southern border. Since Israel has no diplomatic ties with Sudan, and the refugees would likely be killed if returned, the Israeli government has remained undecided about how to treat the refugees, and the refugees have been left in limbo. Amnesty International estimates that there are currently 850 Sudanese refugees in Israel.
I think that what with all the refugees trying to get into Israel from Sudan and Gaza, perhaps what the middle east needs is not one Israel less, but another country like Israel.
The Kurds are working on one, of course.
It’s getting ridiculous. Israel has already absorbed all the Jews from Arab countries, most of the Iranian Jews, the odd bedouin from the disputed territories, and now ever more Sudanese Christians and Muslims.
When the Arabs talk about the refugee problem, they are talking about the Arabs they told to leave Israel and won’t absorb.
But the real refugee problem is the fact that Israel cannot absorb the vast number of people who want to live in the country.
AB-
It just bothers me to NO END why guys like Sudani…who is obviously bright…chant the standard slogans yet can’t or won’t see obvious truths that mess with their world view…
Hundreds are trying to get IN…and they ain’t trying to sneak into Gaza. DO YOU HEAR THAT SUDANI… apparently these Palestinians you are SO worried about don’t give a SHIT about these Muslim brothers…These Sudanese are trying to ESCAPE from ARABS and be protected by the horrible JEWS…A FACT…
In fact…I have a very close Darfurian friend who has family in Egypt refugee camps who would leave for Israel in two seconds if they could.
Wake up and smell the achwah!!! Stop the slogans and sterotypes and repeating these absurd lies. Look at Israel on a map…a tiny country with 5 million people and they are trying to run the world? Do you have ANY common sense?
Howie,
I find it most fascinating that those who “uncover” the Jewish or Israeli conspiracies are always those who know very little about Judaism, have met few Jews, and have never been in Israel.
Sudani,
I suggest you visit Israel and see for yourself. You will find synagogues, churches, and mosques standing next to each other. You will also find shopping malls with entrances that look like airport security gates, because for some reason Israel’s rule over the world does not even extend to getting Arabs to stop trying to murder Jews in their home land.
If you cannot visit Israel, ask your government to change that, because you cannot fight an enemy that you do not know. If they insist that you must not know, you will have learned, perhaps, who the enemy really is.
Muslims can practice Islam freely in Israel. Are you under the impression that Jews would be allowed to practice Judaism freely in Sudan, Egypt, or Saudi Arabia?
Is it not odd that EVERYONE wants to go to Israel? The Arab Jews wanted to get to Israel, the victims of the Sudanese government want to get to Israel, even the Palestinian Arabs want to _return_ to Israel. It seems like the entire Arab world has but two goals: individuals want to live in Israel and the mob wants to destroy it.
Think for a moment. What if Israel didn’t exist any more… what would happen to the 3-4 million descendants of those Jews who fled Arab countries? Will you resettle them in the countries they fled? Will you slaughter them? Will you deport them to Europe or America?
(Do you think Europe and America would keep them in camps for 60 years?)
What would happen to the Israeli Arabs? Will you slaughter them too? Will they be able to keep their high standard of living or will you force them down to the normal Arab standard?
What would happen to Christians? Can they continue to worship freely or will it be like Egypt, or even worse, Saudi Arabia?
What will you do to Jerusalem? Destroy the Jewish Quarter again? Perhaps destroy the temple wall? Will you use Jewish tombstones to build another hotel?
What’s so important about getting rid of 5 million Jews? You already got rid of all the Jews in the Arab countries. Why not leave them alone in that one tiny place, Israel?
AB -
Two words:
1) Waqf.
2) Honor (the Arab/Muslim version).
Raccoon,
I often see this scene in my mind. A suicide bomber has just arrived at the gates of heaven. And Islam is true and Muhammed was a prophet.
An angel, a gate keeper no doubt, asks him a few routine questions (he already knows the answers) that stand between the candidate and heaven.
He tells him that the Qur’an says that G-d told the people of Israel, through the prophet Moses, that they must live in the holy land and not turn back. He tells him that Islam forbids murder and suicide. And he asks him how he died.
And the candidate tells the angel that he died when committing suicide, trying to murder Jews who lived in the holy land. And that he expects to go to heaven for that.
And the angel asks him whether he was drunk at the time.
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