Are You Going To Support THESE Palestinians?

44 Responses to “Are You Going To Support THESE Palestinians?”

1. Andrew Brehm on March 17th, 2007 3:05 pm

   “Being a Palestinian in this country means limited control over your life; everything is in the hand of the occupier.”

   There are two things I think I will never hear a Palestinian Arab say:

   1. “I hate the occupation. I wish we hadn’t attacked them.”

   2. “Living under somebody else’s rule is terrible. No wonder the Jews don’t want to live under Arab rule.”

   I advocate giving Israeli citizenship to gay Arabs.

2. Nizo on March 17th, 2007 3:19 pm

   “I advocate giving Israeli citizenship to gay Arabs.”

   Or at least residency rights, in order to shelter them from the PA-Hamas crazies.

3. Roman Kalik on March 17th, 2007 5:36 pm

   Hamas have Views on the matter. Views that are somewhat similar to those of the Klan regarding black folks. Being gay in Palestine can be a very short experience.

4. Andrew Brehm on March 17th, 2007 8:07 pm

   “Or at least residency rights, in order to shelter them from the PA-Hamas crazies.”

   Exactly.

5. Roman Kalik on March 17th, 2007 8:18 pm

   Residency rights sounds like a decent idea. Not sure how plausible in terms of implementation (how do we check for homosexuality?) but I think it’s possible.

6. John D Infidel on March 17th, 2007 9:23 pm

   I heard Yasser Arafat was a flaming homo who had a penchant for bodyguards. His mysterious death was due to AIDS.

7. Nizo on March 17th, 2007 10:44 pm

   “I heard Yasser Arafat was a flaming homo ”

   A flaming homo? that’s a tad offensive. (to homos, to hell with Arafat)

8. Nizo on March 17th, 2007 10:51 pm

   Roman
   “how do we check for homosexuality?”

   The PA likes to send a letter first advising the victim of his-her death sentence. That letter can be used as proof, I guess.

9. lirun on March 18th, 2007 12:07 am

   confused.. occupation since 1948 and west bank? which one is it?

10. howie on March 18th, 2007 2:29 am

    Kind of a whacky message???

    Go to Israel and be forced into drugs and prostitution? By whom? Raccoon? RK? He NC is gay? Hey NC…how many Lesbian Palestinian hookers have you hung out with lately?

    I cannot believe how some just crazy ideas get around…it is really nutty…just nutty>

    Hmmm…butchy hooker with crewcut and small mustache…ah…I would pay mucho shekels for a romp around the falafal stand with a bitch like that…

    Yah baby….yah!

11. Danial on March 18th, 2007 3:28 am

    It’s pretty sad how they have to live a life of fear due to the acts of intolerant pricks.

    It reminds me of how gays used to get beat up in Mexico City. Anyone been around Hispanics when they find out that one of their siblings is a homosexual? Oh boy it does not look pretty AT ALL.

    Hope they have the power to live a peaceful life free of intolerant punks who feel the need to force their beliefs on others.

    Let Allah swt be the judge. It’s time for these self-righteous people to leave them alone.

12. D.B Shobrawy on March 18th, 2007 4:01 am

    Palestine and Saudi?! Can we get some hot Lebanese lesbians!?

13. Roman Kalik on March 18th, 2007 7:02 am

    Lirun, if we examine the facts then the Palestinians HAVE been under occupation since 1948. By Egypt and Jordan.
    Howie, I reckon that an illegal immigrant living in the street or squatting somewhere isn’t going to meet a good fate. There are shelters willing to take in Palestinian gays, but with the situation today these shelters can only extent their hospitality (illegaly) for so long. So living in the street is the next best bet, if a lynch mob is your only choice back home.

14. Nizo on March 18th, 2007 12:58 pm

    lirun:
    “confused.. occupation since 1948 and west bank? which one is it? ”

    Roman:
    “Lirun, if we examine the facts then the Palestinians HAVE been under occupation since 1948. By Egypt and Jordan.”

    So instead of discussing the plight of these people, you’re resorting to snarky and cynical comments.

15. Roman Kalik on March 18th, 2007 2:35 pm

    So instead of discussing the plight of these people, you’re resorting to snarky and cynical comments.

    Pardon? Haven’t I been discussing just that? Or does one comment invalidate everything I have said? Granted, I haven’t said much, not being familiar with how one can actually help them from without when the problem is within the Palestinian society, other than raising the issue of giving shelter to those who wish seek one in Israel?

    Or perhaps you wish you turn this into a complete Israeli-Palestinian debate. I have no wish to do this. We’ll go through five-hundred comments and eventually realize that we haven’t the slightest clue of how to improve the mess. Not something we’d both agree on, nor something we can feasibly affect.

    This is not an external political issue we’re facing here, but an internal cultural mess. The best I can do is ponder the possibility of giving shelter. Trying to change the culture from the outside is an arrogant venture that is doomed for failure, especially coming from Israelis. That’s reality. It’s a grim and it sucks but there you have it.

16. Nizo on March 18th, 2007 3:46 pm

    I wasn’t the one turning this into an Israeli-Palestinian debate, nor did I explicitly say that you invalidated your earlier comments, to which I actually responded in the positive.

    I’m disappointed in the flippant, homophobic and downright offensive manner that this topic is being discussed. When I look back at the comments, yours are relatively more constructive and mature than those of others, so you’re right Roman, I should have aimed my criticism elsewhere.
    .

17. Roman Kalik on March 18th, 2007 4:25 pm

    I didn’t like the homophobic, but the flippant was only mildly annoying.

    This is because we, that is us Israelis in the crowd, have gotten so tired of propaganda-like material, that tends to blast Israel at every possible case whenever Palestinians in particular or Arabs in general are involved. We tend to see it even if it isn’t there. Over-exposure does that, sadly.

    So I take it with humor, as there’s hardly any other way left to handle it.

18. Roman Kalik on March 18th, 2007 8:41 pm

    Also, Nezo, as I can be a bloody impolite bugger at times, and forget the basics of decent human interaction, I shall put below what should have started my previous post.

    Thank you.

19. nominally challenged on March 18th, 2007 11:32 pm

    Oh boy … sorry, I didn’t notice all these comments until now - I’ve been a bit snowed under with work.

    Howie - sorry to call you on this one, but the comment about drugs and prostitution is unfortunately correct (and your stereotyping, rather uncalled for, I would think).

    Let me explain:

    As Nizo said - the PA is not a safe place for gays and lesbians. They are definitely subject to persecution. I didn’t know that the authorities send a warning letter of their impending death, Nizo - can you confirm that? Do you know if that happens in all cases?

    Those who manage to arrive in Israel are considered illegal aliens unless they have a permit to be in Israel. Since Palestinians without permits (and, it should be said, some who have had permits) have been known, in the past, to do silly things like blowing themselves up in cafes, Israel has a no tolerance attitude to these people, whom it promptly sends back - to their almost certain death. That is if they are caught by the Israeli authorities, or unless they can get someone to vouch for them.

    There are organizations in Israel who try to do what they can - the Agudah in Tel Aviv and the Open House in Jerusalem - but with little effect. The Agudah has a certificate that it issues which informs police that the bearer is being vouched for, but sometimes the police ignore it.

    Even when temporary homes are found, the status of these people is never certain and they can be in constant danger of being deported back to the Palestinian Authority.

    As a result, they cannot get jobs, or at least not legitimate work. Prostitution is often their only viable alternative. We do what we can to try to keep them off the streets, but these people need to eat, and it is not always possible to find them other work. They also, naturally, have a deep suspicion of everyone. Israel is not a safe place for them.

    Israel essentially turns a blind eye to these people. Part of the reason is the fear of sudden influxes of people posing as homosexual refugees, although personally, I don’t think that is likely to really be a problem - how many Palestinian men or women are truly going to own up to being gay and lesbian? We’re fighting this, but it’s an uphill battle.

    By the way, there’s one point that the article does not make, which should be made very clear. Given the fact of the persecution of gays and lesbians in the Palestinian Authority, and Israel’s refusal to grant asylum to enemy aliens (and despite the Sudanese precedent, that is a policy that is unlikely to change), these people clearly should be granted refugee status in another country - however (and this is one of the most frustrating parts of the entire story) - NO country in the Western world is prepared to offer these people asylum due to persecution on the grounds of sexual orientation, because that would be an admission (or an accusation) that the Palestinian Authority actively persecutes gays and lesbians. The fact that it does is well known, but no Western country is prepared to go out and accuse them of it.

    Believe me, it is heart-wrenching.

20. howie on March 19th, 2007 12:06 am

    NC-

    I love sterotypes…

    That aside…are you agreeing with the writer that she would be FORCED into a life of forced prostitution adn forced drug abuse? Forced? Are you serious?

    So my remarks, as RK points out, are sarcastic to the hilt…I am sorry, but the Palestinians delegitamatize their real criticisms with these wild, loony stories and accusations.

    I understand that women have been coerced into prostitution in Israel…and into slavery in the parts of the Arab world and there are cases of these things in the USA and I am sure elsewhere.

    But the writer insinuates that if she somehow made her way to Israel, because she is gay and Palestinian she would be forced into sexual and drug slavery, automatic…and that is a lie…a plain, flat lie and I sure as hell and going to call it out.

    In terms of persecution of gays…well…if I were gay…I sure as hell would not want to live in a Muslim country…in fact…being straight I can’t think of one I would pick…maybe Lebannon if they were not so passionate about killing each other. But I won’t single gays out…persecution is for a state of being; black, Muslim, Jewish, gay, midget, albino…I don’t give a SHIT what state of being, is always wrong. I care about people’s behavior, then their ideas and it is on those two things, in that order, that they should be treated.

    Freakin oversensitive gay men…damn!

21. Nizo on March 19th, 2007 12:37 am

    Thanks for your two agorot Nominally

    That the PA systematically persecutes gays is a documented fact. Here are a couple of news articles to that effect:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2826963.stm
    http://www.forward.com/articles/for-gay-palestinians-tel-aviv-is-mecca/
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1885792,00.html

    Death threats are also documented, and do not always take place in the form of a letter. Here’s the original story from NPR where a written death threat is mentioned.
    https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20020819&s=halevi081902

    In case your not subscribed, I managed to find it here as well:
    http://www.indegayforum.org/news/printer/27154.html

    In any case, as Roman said, this is a Palestinian cultural issue. Nevertheless, from the humane, and moral points of view, Israel should help provide the necessary protection or right of passage to victims of “jurassic and culturally regressive persecution” (as I call it) , whether it’s gays, lesbians, or women threatened with honor killings.

22. Roman Kalik on March 19th, 2007 6:36 am

    The thing about right of passage is that there has to be a destination willing to accept those who pass. After several years of observing the behavior of various aid groups, I would say that most of them would help with money but none would raise the issue in their home countries. Partly due to arrogance (and man, can aid workers be arrogant) and part of it is the certainty that no state truly gives a damn beyond superficial fund-throwing.

23. Roman Kalik on March 19th, 2007 6:49 am

    Now, as for our moral duty, I agree. But we have a much greater duty to our fellow citizens. This is why proof (by way of death threat, possibly, which could be enough) is a must, because otherwise there’s the possibility of putting Israeli citizens at grave risk. We’re a paranoid bunch, and the graveyards are full of the reasons for our paranoia.

    The right of passage would be easiest to accept, but who would take this up? Someone has to arrange for visas in the destination countries, at the very least.

24. nominally challenged on March 19th, 2007 6:52 am

    Howie, I think it makes sense for her to write about being forced into a life of prostitution - not necessarily by a particular person, but certainly by circumstances. And perhaps also by particular people ready to make money on someone with no status to complain. I’m not sure why you find this so difficult to believe. As for the drug issue, I think that the connection to drug use among prostitutes is fairly well proven. I don’t think that it is unique to Israel, and I don’t think that the writer is blaming Israel for forcing her or those like her to pamper to the whims of Israelis, but rather, that being status-less, she has very few other options. She can’t just rock up to a law firm and start in as a junior partner.

    Nizo, thanks for the links, I’ll look at them a bit later, as I’ve got to go out now. But I’ll echo what Roman said about safe passage. I’m pretty sure that if there was somewhere for them to go to, Israel would be willing to provide papers for safe passage. But no country seems prepared to incur the wrath of the PA by outwardly accusing it of this sort of discrimination (not to mention persecution), and Israel’s position is that it cannot afford the risk of having illegal aliens - who might be terrorists - seeking refuge here. The reasoning behind this is that since terrorists have, in the past, been known to use cynical ruses such as ambulances to perpetrate acts of terror, it is hard to convince Israeli authorities that the “I’m gay” excuse would not be similarly exploited, and unfortunately, a terror attack is too high a price to pay. If they could be given refuge elsewhere, then Israel could probably start doing it tomorrow.

25. lirun on March 19th, 2007 8:10 am

    i have never heard of a sexual refugee before but i dont see why this isnt a valid issue..

    i know that there are many gay arab israeli relationships.. its amazing how politics disappears when people start to focus on finding their true love..

    if the issue in grating residence is state security then clearly here there is no threat - i cannot imagine the war perpetuating on the basis that israeli gay people are allowed to indulge..

    if the issue is that it affects us demographically for liberman etc.. well how?

    i cant see the issue.. on the contrary.. historically both in the animal kingdom and in society homosexual communities have had enormous roles in urban gentrification.. philosophical evolution.. they have acted as a support network that ultimately often bequeathes its assets to siblings nephews and nieces..

    i know this is a rant.. but just trying to brain storm with myself and frankly think our society is a perfect place for these people to materialise a few dreams and live their lives (yes a surprising but honest use of the word to come - wait for it..) peacefully..

    believing that everyone deserves to love..

    lirun
    telaviv

    ps nizo.. my question was political and its relevant to me.. my veiws on israeli arabs have buckled so many times this last year because i dont understand the make up of the community’s identity.. whether because of the islamic movement in nazareth or tv shows i saw in arabic mocking any concept of an israeli arab or articles i read..

    dont blame me for cringing when i hear that people call my existence in any part of country - even within the green line to be occupation.. and certainly dont be offended if i seek to understand the intent behind the use of a word that carries soo much behind it..

26. lirun on March 19th, 2007 8:13 am

    i know some terrorists pretend to be veiled women.. but for the life of me i cannot imagine any hamasnik dressing up as a drag queen to get in and blow up a bus..

27. Nizo on March 19th, 2007 10:49 am

    Lirun,
    I would not put it past a Hamasnik to dress up as a drag queen…

    As for the occupation comment, my beef with you wasn’t about your reaction to the usage of the term occupation. I just resented the way the focus was being shifted from the human rights aspect to the political. Now that you elaborated on your comment, it made sense. Your initial reaction was rather short, and therefore slightly ambiguous, at least to me (it could also be this flu I’m fighting, all the medication is chipping at my lucidity)

    Again, as I said to Roman, I was irritated about the general treatment of this topic, but things are beginning to look up and people (Israelis that is, Arabs are not touching this one) are actually discussing it in a productive manner.

28. Andrew Brehm on March 19th, 2007 1:15 pm

    “Nevertheless, from the humane, and moral points of view, Israel should help provide the necessary protection or right of passage to victims of “jurassic and culturally regressive persecution” (as I call it) , whether it’s gays, lesbians, or women threatened with honor killings.”

    Exactly. And may I propose that apart from being the right thing to do this would also be a major PR bonus for Israel AND a way to make valuable friends among Arabs.

    “But we have a much greater duty to our fellow citizens.”

    Gay Arabs need to live somewhere, are a good source of cheap labour, and do not create a demographic problem. Sometimes the right thing to do is also the most egoistic choice one has!

29. Roman Kalik on March 19th, 2007 1:40 pm

    AND a way to make valuable friends among Arabs.

    Oh? Possibly liberal expat Arabs. The rest would just view us with increasing hostility, as Arab countries are fairly conservative and anti-gay. We might win some friends in Lebanon, but that’s about it really, with the way things stand now.

    Other than that detail though, I agree.

30. Andrew Brehm on March 19th, 2007 1:49 pm

    “Oh? Possibly liberal expat Arabs.”

    That is whom I meant.

    I said _valuable_ friends. A gay liberal Arab is valuable. Hostile conservative anti-gay Arabs are not valuable; at least I wouldn’t want to spend money to have them around me.

    It always depends on how people behave. A gay liberal Arab is probably a more useful friend than a hostile conservative anti-gay Arab (who would not be a friend anyway).

31. Roman Kalik on March 19th, 2007 2:38 pm

    A gay liberal Arab is probably a more useful friend than a hostile conservative anti-gay Arab (who would not be a friend anyway).

    Point taken.

32. nominally challenged on March 19th, 2007 3:12 pm

    And may I propose that apart from being the right thing to do this would also be a major PR bonus for Israel AND a way to make valuable friends among Arabs.

    I’m not at all sure about this, Andrew. Israel is already very tolerant of gays and lesbians, but this has not exactly won it brownie points among the nations you might expect to be impressed by that sort of thing. I also think that certain elements in the Arab world would view Israel’s offering asylum to gay Palestinians as being a cynical move that is in line with colonialism - i.e., we’re only prepared to take the ones who’ll breed themselves out, people who could otherwise have been forced, in Palestine, to get married and have children. Don’t forget that, as surprising and stupid as it might sound to us, part of the anti-Israel polemic is that our entire aim is to rid the world of Arabs. This could actually serve to prove that view, even if that was clearly not our intention at all.

    Others of course, would view it as tampering with the holiness of the Holy Land - arguments which were voiced from the most surprising quarters during last year’s ruckus surrounding the Jerusalem Pride Parade. That debate managed to bring about an unholy collaboration between Islamists, Orthodox Jews and those whacky guys from the Bible Belt who just had to chime in as well - all bemoaning the bringing of “abominations” to “my Holy Land”.

    What is more, it would never sit with the Israeli right wing, who only really tolerates the gay community now because there’s an unspoken consensus here that we don’t criticize the soldiers who are protecting us, and it is a known fact that there are gay and lesbian soldiers, and there’s nothing the right wing can or will do about it. Don’t forget that these are the same people who organized a “Bestiality Parade” last year to protest the gay pride parade. The balance here is very precarious as it is.

    Nizo - Arabs are not touching this one - except, of course, that you are. Where are the others like you?

33. Howie on March 19th, 2007 3:31 pm

    NC-

    I hear you…but still don’t buy it…

    And with drugs…which came first…the chicken or the egg? People turn to prosititution typically, to support drug habits…not turning to drugs because they are prostitutes.

    Again…I do have a BIG problem with the “forced” thing though I do hear you on your interpretation of what this woman MAY have meant by the term “forced”, but only she knows what she meant.

34. nominally challenged on March 19th, 2007 5:04 pm

    Howie, I think the question of whether or not they are forced, or whether or not they even become prostitutes, is rather immaterial. The point of the article is that they are illegal in Israel and unwanted (and persecuted) in Palestine. The fact of their being illegal in Israel means that they simply cannot take legitimate jobs. The fact of their being persecuted in Palestine means they have to leave there or face death, in extreme cases. I agree with you that that doesn’t mean that they all have to immediately become prostitutes and suddenly develop drug problems, but those are this woman’s fears, and, being illegal and having no rights, they are rather at the mercy of people who can take advantage of them. The rest is, I think, just her interpretation of what that can lead to, and personally, I don’t think that’s the aspect that we should be emphasizing. I’m sure that we can agree that the situation is less than ideal, even without debating about whether or not anyone physically forced her into prostitution.

35. The Raccoon on March 19th, 2007 6:41 pm

    LOL

    Ye Gods, Howie, you outdid yourself… I nearly split my sides laughing at your comment, man.. you trying to kill me with humor, ain’t ya?

    Hehehehe, on with reading comments

36. The Raccoon on March 19th, 2007 7:29 pm

    Let me see now whether I can translate their… interesting letter into Racconish:

    *chitter chitter chitter*

    And now into Hunam:

    “We hate Evil Jooz and our society wants to kill us (probably because of Evil Jooz). We just want to live in peace (and maybe kill some Jooz while we’re at it). Help us free ourselves from the evil oppression which is probably the fault of the Evil Jooz!”

    Well… naturally, my answer to this is “You deserve whatever you’re getting. Die or live, just stay the hell away from me and mine”.

37. Nizo on March 19th, 2007 7:39 pm

    Raccoon !!

38. Andrew Brehm on March 19th, 2007 7:47 pm

    “I’m not at all sure about this, Andrew. Israel is already very tolerant of gays and lesbians, but this has not exactly won it brownie points among the nations you might expect to be impressed by that sort of thing.”

    It will be very difficult for European lefties to support the terrorists if Israel is not only a refuge for Jews but also for homosexuals.

    Jews used to be a clientel of the left before the left needed a scapegoat, but the left have not yet given up the claim that they represent the interests of the gay scene.

    I have found that many of the European left already change their view on Israel once they find out what Fatah and Hamas really want (for some reason that is so easily ignored). It is a lot easier to ignore Hamas’ and Fatah’s willingness to kill Jews than it is to ignore their willingness to kill Jews AND homosexuals.

    Once the European left are confronted with the fact that they support a side that pretty much tries to eradicate every single group the Nazis tried to eradicate, many of their followers will start thinking; because the left are not necessarily stupid.

    It’s easy to tell oneself that Israel has become a fourth Reich or worse than the Nazis or something like that to justify anti-Semitism. It is a lot more difficult to find such stories for Jews and homosexuals. (”Arab nationalists do not want to exterminate the Jews, they only fight a Jewish state that behaves like Nazi Germany.” vs. “Also, homosexuals are also Nazis and deserve being hunted down by Arab nationalists.”)

    And it is the European left we will have to convince. European and American conservatives are already on Israel’s side. (They are principled and do not abandon a fellow western and religious country.) American and European white nationalists are already on the Arab nationalist side (and we cannot change their opinions anyway). And the American left is hopeless.

    There you have it.

    This is the fight for the EU.

39. Roman Kalik on March 19th, 2007 8:22 pm

    Now, now, Raccoon, they hardly mentioned Israel beyond the standard “we are under occupation”. No mention of who they want to kill, if any, or whether they support anyone with these murderous intentions.

40. Howie on March 19th, 2007 8:25 pm

    NC-

    Interesting how folks can read the same thing and read into something so different…no wonder there are thousands of Christian demoninations and enough interpretitive Jewish commentary to keep you reading 3 lifetimes.

    I just got fired up and sarcastic because I read her remarks much differently than you did…I saw it as “the Pals will kill me and the Israeli’s will enslave me”…like Raccoon would be waiting at the Damascus Gate to jump her, put a hole through her earlobe and then sell her off to his Russian mafia buddies for a life of walking the alleys of Nachalot banging Kurds and lurking yeshiva boys for shots of heroin.

    Palestinian Lesbian lady…if you are out there…I apologize if I misread your comments…just move to West Hollywood where you will be a majority and tell everybody to go to hell. I am an Israeli citizen and I promise I won’t enslave you…might buy you a beer though if you look me up.

41. halalhippie on March 19th, 2007 10:06 pm

    Andrew: the European left is listening…….
    I’m confused: I distinctly remember - at the time of the Gay Parade - a sheikh declaring “we don’t have those kind of people in our community”

42. The Raccoon on March 20th, 2007 11:49 am

    Nizo - sorry bro… but when a third of their tearful and heartfelt letter deals with “Israeli oppression and occupation since 1948″ while mentioning that (I read it the same way Howie did) Raccoons will get them hooked on crack and walking the streets as soon as they step in Israel… I dunno, I just don’t feel like helping them. I am not about to help people who even remotely seem like they might be interesting in turning me into a hat.

43. lirun on March 21st, 2007 6:23 am

    interesting to see how the issues diverge.. you can assume that the moral issues are uniform but they never are.. here there are two issues for two nations.. one is its treatment of lesbians.. and the other is its openness to the other on the basis of its fundamental principles even when the other takes a hostile view and the consequences of such.. nizo matey.. you know im a friend.. but i don agree with you that the humantarian crisis is a larger issue than the national threat of consistently accumulating strongly dissenting minorities..

    i think its fair to address both..

    and i still struggle to see why or how a palestinian lesbian is forced into prostitution and drugs.. it doesnt make any sense to me at all.. i admit though that i may have missed something in the comments above.. notwithstanding their weakened state from a political rights perspective..

    in israel there are many illegal foreign workers who earn an “honest” pay.. yes they may get expelled every now and then but i gather that would be different if they proactively attempted to resolve their status rather than waiting for getting caught.. and if not - i am sure they could seek political assylum elsewhere.. unfortunately not every state has the moral or otherwise requisite infrastructure to intercept the needy..

    i consider it a sad story for both sides of the coin..

44. tsedek57 on March 22nd, 2007 2:59 am

    Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzz

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