GREAT video! You may not agree with the details but the message should defintely be supported. Watch it, because if you don’t, I’ll hate you for all eternity! 
Avaaz.org: Stop the Clash of Civilizations
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{ 19 comments… read them below or add one }
Cute. Naive in the extreme, but cute.
Thing is, it’s not about whether people want peace or not. Of course people want peace. It’s a question of price - as in, “I want peace… but only when all my enemies are dead and my clan rules the world”.
If I was a terrorist, these people would become my mouthpiece/media bitches inna month tops. How… useful.
Ok, I watched it so you don’t have to hate me for all eternity now
But I agree with Raccoon on this one. Everyone wants peace, just on different terms. And if someone’s version of peace has me dead in it, then quite frankly, I’m hardly likely to support that now, am I?
I am not even sure I understand this “clash of civilization”… I think this labeling is just too much hype and to large extent is similiar to the oversimplification of the Darfur conflict as Arab vs. african nonsense…
I more prefer the label of “clash of ignorance”…
Edward Said has a better take on the subject…
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011022/said
The message is good, the video is nice, but I am indeed unlikely to agree with the details. This is where the video fails, because when it tried to appeal to the largest group of people possible by using the details in question, it made me cringe in some places. I was kinda… politically correct, to tell you the truth. Or at least it did its very best to be.
And yes, rather naive.
I prefer this to tell you the truth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvelgA6a9A
I think Howie posted it once.
Jonah - so long as you recognize that the ignorance runs both ways that’s fine. Said, in that very articulate article, falls short of doing that.
Having said that, though, it still doesn’t really move us forward does it?
So we have a conflict of ignorance - great. now what?
I believe Said is middle ground.. I do not think he is one sided. I am in agreement with him that this simplification of clash of civilization does not help the situation. How is women wearing traditional islamic cloth a clash of civilization? Does any person seriously believe we have conflicts over what women wear? What does saudi monarchy which the best of friend of US government have to do with conflict of civilization? What does the fact 62% of palestianian wanting real peace got to do with clash of civilization? They just want a country or homeland!
Sorry, Drima I like the message but I am not sure content got anything to do with clash of civilization… I would not be suprised if the neo-conservatives in washington are using this type of paradigm or labeling “clash of civilization” for their agenda or policy in the middle east…
For example, go after Iraqi oil, destroy the country, and when some of people resist called them extremist unable to understand democracy… “we just have a clash of civilization -the arab mind can’t understand democracy”…
NC- you want to move forward look at the real cause of the problem and try find a just solution that work for both sides. I believe the first trying to understand the problem without all these labeling? Do you really think the conflict in palestine is clash of civilization?
Racco on that video… the message is good. I hope it leads in direction peace and justice for all people.
How is women wearing traditional islamic cloth a clash of civilization?
When it’s forced on the women in order to keep them in place as second-rate citizens (such as in KSA and Iran) then it clashes with Western principles.
What does saudi monarchy which the best of friend of US government have to do with conflict of civilization?
A great deal. The US friendship with KSA ended up supporting the spread of a radical brand of Islam, which gave birth to wonderful people like Osama.
What does the fact 62% of palestianian wanting real peace got to do with clash of civilization?
In principle, nothing. In practice, it depends on their personal definition of “peace”. So far, with the people supported and voted into office by the Palestinian people, I’m not too optimistic on this matter.
The message is still good, mind.
Jonah,
I believe Said is middle ground.
I don’t think that he believed that he was, though. He was a definite partisan (as opposed to a bi-partisan), as was his right, of course. One of his main objectives, throughout his writing, was to expose anti-Arab prejudices which he called “Orientalism”. He had no interest in exposing the prejudices held by Arabs, not, I’m sure, because he didn’t think that they existed, but simply because that was not what he was trying to get across.
Do you really think the conflict in palestine is clash of civilization?
No. I never said that it was … that was the people who made the film.
The opposite of a conflict of ignorance, which I think Said correctly identifies in his article, has got to be knowledge. Which is one of the things we are doing here - learning about each other. Bit difficult for the Palestinians to do when their government closes down internet cafes and starts banning their own folklore storybooks. But I am certain that there are those who are still trying, and managing, to learn about me, why I’m here, and why I’ll never leave, just as I am learning about them, why they are there, and why they don’t want me to be here.
Heh. Talk only gets you this far.
NC - when someone is running at you with an axe… do you REALLY give a fuck about the collection of insanities which led him to pick it up?
About knowledge… mind you the words of Martin Luther - “Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding” - or rather, the mentality which brought these words forth - is alive and well. What is knowledge, with its confusing and shameful revelations, compared to the pure, unwavering psychosis of faith?
You cannot fight faith with knowledge. And this war - and this IS a war - is a war of reason versus faith. This is why it’s a clash of civilizations, and this is why knowledge or dialogue are not applicable as weapons in this war.
For example, go after Iraqi oil, destroy the country, and when some of people resist called them extremist unable to understand democracy… “we just have a clash of civilization -the arab mind can’t understand democracy”…
I’ve yet to hear anyone in America who doubts that Arabs or Muslims are incapable of democracy. However, whenever I visit Finland, I find that most Finns consider Americans incredibly naive for presuming that Arabs could be persuaded to accept democracy.
finnpundit- the american definition of democracy should I say “american government” notion of democracy is usually more about having a favorable government in country of interest…
For example, in the occupied terrorities, Hamas won the democratic election but what is reaction of the america and western countries hold the aid, let’s strangle Hamas and Palestian people until they elect the people we like?
Look at venezula… when a democratically elected leader goes US interest, and coup etat occured the United States tacitly supports it and does not condemn it… Condi Rice says “I hope that Hugo Chavez takes the message that his people sent him that his own policies are not working for the Venezuelan people” Luckily of course, by popular support he was back in his elected position.
By my statement above, I am trying to point to the fact that whenever anyone goes against the interest of America- for example, when Bush was asked about the islamic extremest he said: “they hate us because of our freedom”? and guess what they call the invasion and destruction of Iraq = “Operation Freedom”
I quite surprised the Finnish people have such an outlook in regards to Arab people. Of course, maybe Finnish are reacting to Iraq where a country had to be invaded and destroyed and democracy had to be implanted or supplanted.. with puppet governement.. I am not who would call that a democracy… In world history democracy is usually brought about by the people’s strong desire.. We should let be up to every country and its people bring about democracy or form government it wants… democracy in terms of world-wide application is fairly new..
American people living a democratic society with diverse people and cultures do believe democratic system as universal…
But when it comes to US government it is different story…
I geuinely believe most strongest allies of US in North Africa and Middle East, I am thinking of despots in Egypt or Saudi Arabian royalities would diasppear if democracy would come to those countries… BUT IS REALLY IN US GOVERNMENT INTEREST TO HAVE DEMOCRACY IN THOSE SOCIETIES? it is too much uncertainity.. who knows the people might not elect someone that is so PRO-US policy…
I believe America supports government because if democractic election happens in those countries, the result might be a government that is geniunely interests like Chavez in Venzuela…
RACCON: I am not sure understood your comment..
above
“What does saudi monarchy which the best of friend of US government have to do with conflict of civilization?
A great deal. The US friendship with KSA ended up supporting the spread of a radical brand of Islam, which gave birth to wonderful people like Osama.”
My point was if most backward, draconian, islamic fundamental governement of Saudi Arabia is best friends with the most liberal, open, democratic society like United States, doesn’t that disapprove this clash of civilization label in saudi case? These two extremes should be at each other’s throat if “clash of civilization” is label is applicable?
My point was if most backward, draconian, islamic fundamental governement of Saudi Arabia is best friends with the most liberal, open, democratic society like United States, doesn’t that disapprove this clash of civilization label in saudi case? These two extremes should be at each other’s throat if “clash of civilization” is label is applicable?
Who said the clash has started yet? What we’re seeing now is just a preview of what might happen years, even decades from now. Eventually, the extremes will indeed turn against each other, as the differences between the two societies slowly tear apart the similarities. The only glue that keeps KSA and USA together is oil. And no, not oil revenue, but oil in itself. Oil is a global economic resource, as long as a cost-efficient replacement isn’t found. Its use is too widespread, it’s the blood in the arteries of far too many countries. Whereas the differences, the glue-dissolver if you will, have only become apparent in recent years.
Which is why the US and most of the Western world are investing in oil-alternatives research. Once governments like KSA’s no longer receive support from oil revenues, they will either be forced to change to accommodate the demands of their people, or die. I would say we’ll see a true clash once oil becomes a secondary resource, not as crucial as it is today but still enough to give KSA a large enough revenue.
At that point, all people will see is the differences. That is when the dung-pile will truly hit the windmill.
Raccoon:
“NC - when someone is running at you with an axe… do you REALLY give a fuck about the collection of insanities which led him to pick it up?”
No, at that point it’s too late. But if understanding where he’s coming from means I can forecast his path, then I’ll be in a better position to know where to stand aside. Knowing where he’s coming from is simply being prepared. It’s a damn side better than dying with a look of surprised stupor on your face.
“You cannot fight faith with knowledge.”
Ah, the pistic versus gnostic debate. There’s a post in that for sure. You’re right, I cannot fight someone else’s faith with my own knowledge, but why would I bother? What I aim to achieve by increasing my own knowledge is an understanding of where to be when the other guy starts running with the axe. The answer is, a long way away or behind a bloody big wall (and not necessarily, in my experience, with a bigger axe).
Roman K… you might pass the message to that website that doing the “stop the clash of civilization” that we do not have any clashs right now…
“At that point, all people will see is the differences.”
Maybe message read “stop future or potential clash of civlization”
Jonah, I must say that your “March 7th, 2007 at 4:04 am ” comment was well said. I generally agree with you. Those are the double standards of US foreign policy.
NC -
You’re right about this particular application of knowledge. But this is a whole different barrel of fish. My point is, the clash is already here - and it’s a clash between a reason-based society and a faith-based society.
RK -
You’re also right, in a way. We’re experiencing the skirmishes between outriders while the armies are marching.
Drima and Jonah -
Remember that Hitler was also democratically elected.
PS
NC - the best position to be in the described situation is about 1.5 k away from the man, looking at him through the scope of an XM-105, ready to kneecap him if needed.
Edmund Burke would have agreed.
I hate to say it but all faith based and capitalist based socieites eventually become corrupt. The reason is because people are inherently flawed. The differece though is that in capitalist based socities there are usually rules that make all people equal. who knows. . maybe bush will be brought up on war crimes someday. . Does the ends justify the means?.. Who knows. But eventually everybody gets caught. Just ask Saddam.
The whole middle east has something lose if the Shites and Sunnis and the kurds fail to get along. Iran/Shites . .. Saudi/sunnis. . . and the Kurds if they set up an autonomous state (Turkey does not want that to happen). How do you get your enemies involved in solving problems? Put a burning bush at the front door and walk away. At that point they don’t want you leave and they don’t want you to stay. That’s Americas predicament right now.
So you get Iran to reel in the shites and get Saudi Arabia to reel in the Sunnis and you keep stringing along the Kurds but never really giving them a state of their own. Thats politics trying to stop the clash of civilizations on a micro scale.
On a Macro scale it’s much more difficult because you have Russia and China looking after their own best interests. They veto anything in the UN that might effect their GDP and energy concerns. . . Just like America. .
I am starting to understand how the palestinians feel though because in california, particularily silicon valley, Its hard to find a “white” american. In fact the “illegal” Mexican population is outta control. And I wish I could speak multiple languages but I can’t. Its a weird feeling when the place you grew up in changes both its color and its language right in front of you. And so fast.
I guess it comes down to controlling the hate of your people. Thats the governments job. . That is a function of the state.. .If the state fails at that then civil wars happen. . .hate crimes happen. . Peope die.
Religious extremist governments don’t want you to have your own religion. They want you to convert or die. hence uncontrollable hate. . .Aren’t you amazed at how the american citizens do not burn down mosques and other Islamic symbols. Thats because in america if you commit a crime you will go to jail and be punished. Granted you have to be caught but they will always be looking for you after that. It’s that feature of america that adds civility to its society. Is it any better that shiria law? You bet your fucken ass it is. And if you try to kill me because I don’t want shiria law, I have a loaded .357 for you, . . Get away from me you freakin religious zealot. You may call that hate. But I call it self preservation. And I understand that “they” feel the same way about our form of democracy. But I got news for you. Women deserve to be herd and seen. Its ok to have multiple religions and even atheists. It’s ok to drink alcohol and listen to rap music or rock n roll if thats my choice. And yes, if you want to be gay thats OK I guess, just keep it outta my face It’s my choice to live how I want to. But that does not give me free regin to harm people.
Do I like Bush. . Nope. . Do I think he is trying to change the world for the better. . Yep. .. The Non-proliferation treaty is there for a reason. . You’ll get the slap down if you step outside the lines. Rouge regiems who use oil money to oppress their people will get the slap down. Nobody in this forum knows what its like to live in baghdad or pyong yang and I am thankful everyday for that. Do you think Norway would sit idle if they were attacked? Or you could take the morally blind route and say America deserved it because of their capitalist history. Thats crap as well.
I don’t like the fact that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer but thats the fact of life. Your living in a field of daisys if you think it will/can be any different. Its like that in EVERY country. I will never have as much money as Bill gates and the poor guy in Sudan will never have as much money as me. That is a suckass sentence but its the truth and sometimes it hurts.
The most we can hope for is to have equal rights with both the rich and the poor. And in America there is at least a chance of that happening. More so than in most other countries. As long as america trys to spread that idea I will stand behind it.
I love America. RL
Yes, if there were justice for Palestine many other problems could be solved.
Of course, the majority of Israelis wish for peace, but on their terms.
There can never be an acceptable peace if practically all the status quo is maintained; but that is the sort of peace which Israel desires.
Speak to an ordinary Israeli and they will confirm my analysis.
Avaaz may be well-intentioned, but it is utterly naive.
Question is; Will Osama & Beckham ever play each other in football/soccer?
http://environmentdebate.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/david-beckham-osama-bin-laden-play-football/
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