A lovely post that put a smile on my face. Will this get major coverage? I doubt it. I mean hey, it’s not like this ever got any real coverage. Right? More here.
Muslims “Taking Over” a Jewish School in the UK
WARNING: Heavy Sarcasm Zone. USA Sucks. Jews Not Welcome. Religion Is Infallible. Reader Discretion Is Advised, and Again, Seriously, Heavy Sarcasm Zone.
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{ 39 comments… read them below or add one }
I always did think that the American “trick” of keeping religion away from schools doesn’t work as well as acknowledging religions.
My impression is also that religious Muslims and religious Jews (and religious Christians) have fewer problems with each other than the non-religious varieties.
*nod* As long as the religious leaders don’t try to be hate-filled political leaders, I think Andrew is correct. The three groups in question tend to have more in common than their non-religious counterparts, something that makes accepting the other easier.
Good post, Drima, made me smile as well. And you know how it is with mainstream media. Nice stuff doesn’t sell newspapers, only sensationalism.
.. and this is something I have problems with in Germany:
I heard for example about a christian kindergarten, which stopped celebrating christmas, because there were so many non-christian children (mostly atheist and muslim) attending, that the director decided that he did not want to impose the religion on those kids. The thought (as expressed in the post on eteraz.org) that parents willingly and knowingly choose the (in this case) christian kindergarten, because they approve of it, does not seem to come into his mind.
This is something I think is a problem here in Germany: Being so careful not to impose anything on anybody imcludes the danger of giving up one’s own values and convictions. And I don’t see this as a promising way.
Sometimes values and convictions have to be changed and adapted. Sometimes it is important to stick to them.
But in any case it is important to have them in the first place.
And the muslim school which has Jewish parents rushing to enlist their kids there because of the high level of tolerance and quality of education is … where exactly?
Just asking …
Just to piggy back on AB’s comment…
My son and I went out for a walk…he asked me “what is the difference between Judaism and Christianity”? What surprised me is that I really struggled to answer him…and it took awhile to hit me…
In terms of values and morality…they are just about identical…where things get nutty is in the area of theology and, of course, politics.
I don’t know much about Islam…but I would be willing to beat that the same probably holds…more or less.
Interesting …eh?
To answer howie, yes the same does hold for Islam. The three Abrahamic religions share so many morals and values.
Wonderful article. The school sounds like a model to be followed everywhere, especially in multicultural cities.
I do have a problem though with the ‘waving of the Israeli flag’. Zionism is not Judaism, and the Zionist state of Israel with all its racist and oppressive policies in no way embodies Jewish traditions. It is specifically this, sometimes deliberate, mixing of religion and politics that gets us in trouble.
Howie,
well, as far as I can tell, all three religions have rules about how people should treat each other, what you should and should not do.. so, yes, about moral principles.
I do think that there are differences in the priorities of certain values and also in the way they view God (and probably some other points). (This already might be the sphere of the theological differences you talked about.)
But I also think that the religions have more in common than people often want to see. And sometimes also the differences in believe between two christians might be bigger than between e.g. a christian and a muslim. (I found people of all religions where we could closely relate to each other talking about our believes as well as people with whom I would not discuss religion, because there’s just no way of understanding each other - including christians, which is the religion I am part of.)
The point I wanted to make was that I think those parents got that. That’s why they chose this school. It seems like they are looking for a school that does not only teach scientific knowledge, but also moral values and that they figured that it mattered less if this was taught by a school of their own religion or by someone of another religion whom they trust to convey those values, including tolerance. (so without fanatical indoctrination).
Sad point for me still is, that the director does not see it like that. What is so bad about celebrating christmas together and to learn about a religions believe, as long as you are not forced to make it your own believe? This can be a good example of learning about tolerance and gaining knowledge.
In order to learn about those values we talked above, you need people who are convinced that they are worth to be conveyed.
“I do have a problem though with the ‘waving of the Israeli flag’.”
I don’t. The Israeli flag, to me, symbolises Jewish survival in a region where Jews were very nearly exterminated had they not fought back.
“Zionism is not Judaism, and the Zionist state of Israel with all its racist and oppressive policies in no way embodies Jewish traditions.”
What racist and oppressive policies?
Have you even been in Israel? How can you call Israel racist? What are you referring to?
wow ive entered a surreal world
Andrew, there is so much ignorance concerning Israel. When I say that 1 on 5 people is NOT jewish they stare at me or ask me to provide figures, which I happily do. If I say that the new wife of my husbands father is Thai and just got an Israeli passport, they stare at me in disbelief.
But when I tell them that non-muslims cannot visit the kabaa, they shrug. That is not racism at all of course.
sigh.
“Andrew, there is so much ignorance concerning Israel.”
Yes. I only wonder why it is so acceptable to make up stupid lies or repeat some rumour one has heard as fact when Israel is concerned.
Israel practices apartheid. That statement can be heard and read most often. But nobody can ever come up with an example (that is not about treatment of enemies or non-citizens or something like that).
For a few months I used to offer a bet to anybody who claimed that Israel was racist and Israelis full of hatred, but nobody ever took me up on it:
I offered to walk through Tel Aviv wearing a t-shirt with a “Palestinian” or Syrian flag, telling interested people (i.e. those who ask me about the shirt) that I believe that Israel is wrong and “Palestine” is right.
In exchange the other party would have to wear a t-shirt with an Israeli flag, walk through Damascus or Gaza, telling interested people that they believe that Israel is right and “Palestine” is wrong.
He who survives longer gets to be right about his side’s non-existent racism and readiness for peace.
Nobody took me up on the bet.
I figure that while many people want to believe bad things about Jews, because it makes them feel better about their own shortcomings, few still hold those opinions when reality knocks on their doors.
I actually trust Israel’s tolerance and readiness for peace and do not believe that I am risking a lot with the bet.
But who can trust the other side?
“But when I tell them that non-muslims cannot visit the kabaa, they shrug. That is not racism at all of course.”
Well, it isn’t. But I imagine that if Israel would forbid non-Jews to visit the old city of Jerusalem, it WOULD be cited as an example of Israel’s racism.
Suzanne, it is surreal, isn’t it? We’re so used to how grim the world is that we forget how it should be.
And while I don’t see a problem with Muslims reserving a religious site strictly for Muslims, I *do* have a problem with such laws as ‘no Jews may own real estate’ which some countries around us have.
“I *do* have a problem with such laws as ‘no Jews may own real estate’ which some countries around us have.”
You intolerant kike piggy ape!
Raccoon,
Quiet, you murderous fascist Zionazi, you.
LOL
What about calling for Israel to harmonise her laws?
Would that be acceptable for her detractors?
I was just realising,… I hope Drima realises his blog attracts more and more peacefull israelis and jews.
Before you know he’ll be dragged into the whole conspiracy of those eveil zionazis taking over the world only to destroy the muslim world.
Drima! You are warned!
Anyway,.. it is sad that i read bitterness in your words Andrew, but I know what you mean. The image of Israel is distorted. There is no other individual who gets more aid than one Palestinian. No Sudanese. No Congolese. No Mozambiquan, no Bangladeshi and no Moldovan.
There have been more people killed in half a year in Sudan than 6 years of “intifada” (israeli victims included). And definitely more in Congo (compare a “lousy” 4.000 to the figure of 3.800.000 in the same period. Yes! That is 3,8 milion victims in Congo in 6 years.)
And where is the UN human rights council for example? Too busy with Israel and scratching their asses, I pressume.
Btw. I am reading a great book on Apartheid in South Africa (A Dry White Season; they made a movie about it as well).
And I was imaging that some people actually believe that that situation is comparable for what’s going on Israel. I remember also one day during a discussion with extreme-left (newborn communists and such) where I said to one person: how DARE you compare the ANC to Hamas? (because that is what he did). I dont know but it looked like he was shocked by my reality check answer.
Suzanne - heh. The world is insane. Utterly bonkers. Truth became an anathema; looking at things and seeing them as they are, an unforgivable crime. The very basic freedom - the freedom of thought - is being quickly eroded.
Sometimes I am bemused by the nature of these events; it is like living in a sci-fi or fantasy plot. Beacons of freedom and equality sinking, demonized and derided; evil empires rising, and the free nations cringe and bicker in their shadows; heroes are spat upon, villains applauded; hordes of barbarians led by madmen rampage across a hapless world.
You do not honestly expect sanity, reason or justice, do you? We live in a fantasy, blind and bewildered.
Reality is a thoughtcrime. Doubleplusungood. See your corrections officer for re-education.
Suzanne-
You are obviously a thoughtful person…good for you.
AB…I could not have said it any better…by the way…if you world the “Palestinian” tee-shirt in Tel Aviv…nobody would even give you a second look…you would have to hit Hebron to get some excitement…but nobody would kill you for it…
In Gaza…you would not need the tee-shirt..enough people have just turned down the wrong street to learn that lesson.
So…the disclaimer…are all Jooz good and all Arabs bad…no…but maybe we have to take a hard look my original post…about values systems…
Look…the Jooz are digging a couple of holes around the Old City and we have Muslims not just protesting…but calling for INTIFADA…that means blowing up ice cream palors again…It makes me cringe to think about signing a peace deal with these guys…
“Hey..digging holes again Jooz!! Deal’s off”. Look at the way they are handling their own internal division…bang bang…your dead.
It is no simple problem…but Israel, relatively speaking, is a very very blended and non-racist society with, sure…no shortage of individual assholes.
But let me say one last thing…you can go into any shopping area in Israel and see Arabs in hijab or what have you..walking, talking, buying, eating in outdoor cafes…and I have not heard of ONE CASE of them being hassled and I have seen this hunderds of times with my own eyes.
To paraphrase AB…hey Raccoon…AB..RK…what yah say we head over to Jenin for a little walk, pick up some baklawah and have a couple of Goldstars tomorrow night? Chat with the local bro’s. Oh..and please wear your kippas and tallits.
Any takers? Give me a break here.
Berlin
“This is something I think is a problem here in Germany: Being so careful not to impose anything on anybody imcludes the danger of giving up one’s own values and convictions. And I don’t see this as a promising way.”
Yes it is called political correctness…I think Germany is still traumatized by the opposite behavior from the 30’s and 40’s…and has gone to the other extreme. Same thing here in the USA…but tends to reflect the racism of the Jim Crow days…now it is almost criticize a black and you are a “racist”.
There is such a thing as good and bad..focus should be on people’s behavior.
Coming to think of it. Actually the piece of the Jewish school Drima mentioned is the real world, but in this surreal world or as Raccoon said: “it is like living in a sci-fi or fantasy plot” this Jewish school sounds surreal to us.
The world turned upside down.
Speaking of Jews digging holes, the calls for intifada this time aren’t even over digging. It’s about repairing a bridge.
’sigh’ I dunno how much of it is ignorance, how much of it is deliberate denial, and how much of it is just plain hatred but I am sick and tired of hearing how the mere presence of Jews near Al-Aqtsa is a Zionist plot to destroy a Muslim holy site, that the Jews never had a temple there and that its all Zionist propoganda etc…
Sheesh.
Loved the article…that’s the kind of world I want to live in.
well, its highly doubtfull there was a mosque there when Mohammed is said to pay a visit to heaven with that creature (i forgot its name) as islam had not reach Jeruzalem yet.
but nevermind.
@Roman Kalik, doing nothing will do harm to the mosque. But that’s something they fail to see.
The Evolutionary, me too
let’s buy an isle somewhere in the middle of the ocean and create a little paradise 
“Yes it is called political correctness…I think Germany is still traumatized by the opposite behavior from the 30’s and 40’s…and has gone to the other extreme.”
Ah, the 30s, when the Nazis attempted to remove all traces of Germany’s Christian heritage and tried to replace everything with secular nationalist rituals.
Roman, not just repairing a bridge, but repairing a bridge that only Muslims and tourists use to enter the place. Jews don’t use that bridge - where not allowed up there, remember? Perhaps we shouldn’t repair the bridge, and just let the temporary wooden one collapse in due course. Of course, that would probably cause an intifada also …
“Jews don’t use that bridge - where not allowed up there, remember?”
Well, that is going to change; now that we all agree to remove any and all racist apartheid laws.
Hmmm. cant decide what was more interesting to read.. the article itself or the comments on them..
What if all political, religious & community leaders can debate & negotiate in such a peaceful way..
LOL. Sorry guys for not contributing more. Kinda busy but I’ll be a little more free in the weekend.
Precious, you’re so right.
Suzanne, I already realized what you told me a while ago. This blog certainly attracts lots of Israe.. *cough*, piggy ape Zionist CrUSAders.
Btw though, I’m working on finding some Sudanese Jews in the Diaspora to tell them about this blog. They’ll surely make the discussions alot more interesting.
Laterz…
Andrew - can you cite the racist, apartheid laws that you want repealed please? I’d like the name of the law, the year and the relevant sections. Thanks
The reason Jews are not allowed on the Temple Mount has nothing to do with any statute in the Israeli lawbooks. It is a combination of a rabbinical edict that no-one is allowed to enter the Holy of Holies and since we don’t know it’s exact location, we don’t go up there; and a police policy (not a law, but policy) recommending that Jews not go there, so as not to incite tensions. That’s all. No law involved.
Howie - if you can provide body armor, air support, combat evac unit and a couple of batallions on standby, I am with you all the way
“Andrew - can you cite the racist, apartheid laws that you want repealed please?”
I was being sarcastic. I think most people got it.
“a police policy (not a law, but policy) recommending that Jews not go there, so as not to incite tensions. ”
As I understand it Israel has granted control over the temple mount to Muslims and the Muslims who control it don’t allow Jews to pray there. It may not be law, but it is something the state did and the result is apartheid (i.e. one group may, the other may not).
“Howie - if you can provide body armor, air support, combat evac unit and a couple of batallions on standby, I am with you all the way :)”
Same here.
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Doesnt the above comment fall into the category “spam”? Or under the category “the ‘new Jehovah witnesses’ are knocking on my door”?
The fact is jews and christians are pigs and apes that are not worthy of life. You should not compare yourself to the beautiful Muslims of the world.
syed you are not a real muslim if you say this, show respect, it says in the quran hat we should join with the ‘people of the book’ so if you do not obey this command you will go hell, fellow brothers do not listen to this man it is this example that divides us, that is truth.
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