An interesting post at Tsedek’s blog. Meanwhile, it looks like Israel’s apartheid has been verified by a former Israeli cabinet minister. No?
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“Meanwhile, it looks like Israel’s apartheid has been verified by a former Israeli cabinet minister. No?”
I have not seen such roads, I can’t tell. I would expect a soldier to make a difference between citizens and non-citizens. If there was no sign, perhaps the former cabinet minister was fooled by a funny soldier?
But perhaps it is true. I do find it surprising, however, that it took so long to find an example. There is apartheid, there was one case where a former minister remembered that a soldier said that a street was for whites only; that would never have convinced me that there was apartheid in South Africa.
To me this look weird. When did that happen?
I don’t know Andrew. That post I linked to links to the original article. However for me, I would believe it simply because there are very radical people within the Israeli government who have openly said racist things and continue to. Maybe it isn’t official state policy but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were people within the Israeli government trying to enforce such policies.
I haven’t visited Israel. All I know about it is from the media and the blogosphere. It’s true there are Muslims and Arab Israelis within Israel itself who are happy but there are others who accuse Israel’s policies of being racist against them. So do Ethiopian Jews (whether some or many, I can’t tell). Racism exists in Israel and it’s a real problem but from what I know, I don’t think there is an offcial apartheid going on within Israel itself against non-Jews. But apartheid against Palestinians? It looks like it’s been verified now by a former Israeli minister.
“But apartheid against Palestinians? It looks like it’s been verified now by a former Israeli minister.”
No. What was verified was racism, not apartheid. You have racist soldiers in Israel. Apartheid would be a state where finding such a soldier wouldn’t be a story.
Apartheid against “Palestinians” is a different thing. Apartheid against Israeli Arabs is racist such, as a distinction is made on the basis of ethnicity or race. But apartheid against “Palestinians” as in residents of the occupied territories who are (and want to be) in a state of war with Israel is not racist.
Incidentally, using the term “Palestinian” to describe only non-Jewish residents of the area Palestine IS racist.
Even before Jewish mass immigration there were Jewish Palestinians. Hence “Palestinian” should always include the Jews who have lived there as long as and longer than their Arab co-Palestinians. If you use the term to describe only the non-Jewish population, you are using it in a racist way, like using “German” to exclude specifically Jewish Germans or Sorbish Germans.
There is also the issue of war and peace. Perhaps Israel is an apartheid state. But would it be if Israelis didn’t have to worry about being attacked by Arabs specifically.
Do you think I was scared of Jews in Israel?
Do you think the Arabs who run the temple mount and don’t allow Jews to pray there are scared of Jews? (If there were, would continue to wield the power that they have, knowing that the Jews are dangerous?)
I have seen Ethiopian Jews. I was utterly delighted to see some black people who did NOT behave like the stereotypical blacks you see on television these days. They behaved exactly like all the other (Jewish) Israelis.
I know a black Jew who speaks with a Yiddish accent. I am sorry but that is the ultimate opposite of racism. His skin colour has absolutely nothing to do with who he is. It never does, but many people seem to believe that it has to. But in his case, it didn’t influence who he was.
“I wouldn’t be surprised if there were people within the Israeli government trying to enforce such policies.”
Neither I. In fact, I would be surprised if the Israeli government of all governments would be nut-free.
In fact, and this is just an assumption to test one of your assumptions, I have heard that many Druze don’t like non-Druze Arabs very much and that many Bedouins hate Palestinian Arabs and vice versa. Did you assume that it was a Jewish civil service who came up with Jew-only streets or did you think it might have been one of the other groups?
Apartheid was a systematic series of laws, all of which were open and none of which were concealed, by which the white minority in South Africa determined a racial hierarchy in that country for a period of almost half a century, if not more. Statutes. In law books. Which openly stated, without beating around any bush, or using any hidden language, that blacks, indians and ‘coloureds’ were inferior to whites and had inferior rights to whites. Racism, whether latent or patent, so long as it is not institutionalised, is NOT apartheid.
Certainly, there is racism in Israel. There is also racism in Malaysia, where you live, and in Sudan, where you come from. In fact, there is racism in every country I have ever visited or lived in. It might not be a good or desirable thing, but it is universal. However, the racism that exists in Israel is not institutionalised. It does not exist in acts of law. There is no statute that says “Arabs are inferior to Jews”. Individual people, or even groups of people, may perform acts of racism against Arabs, but that is not the same as apartheid. And if it is, then every country in the world practises apartheid to the same extent.
As for roads for Jews only - I imagine the road was one leading to a Jewish settlement on the West Bank, which is why the soldier determined that it was a Jewish road. I know that on the West Bank there are Jewish roads and Arab roads. No Jews are allowed to travel on the Arab roads either, by the way, by order of the Palestinian Authority. I wonder, is that apartheid too? Or perhaps it’s just a question of safety … It’s probably not apartheid, because it’s Arabs doing it, rather than Israel.
One thing you have to realise is that a different law applies in the West Bank to that which applies in Israel proper. Since Israel has never annexed the West Bank, the law that applies there is Jordanian law (since the territory was taken from Jordan), except where the Israeli military commander has legislated regarding certain aspects of life. As a rule, Israeli military law does not apply to those areas of the West Bank that vested in the Palestinian Authority. However, not even the military law that applies within parts of the west bank says anything like “Arabs are inferior to Jews and therefore XYZ …”, so not even that law is apartheid.
The word ‘apartheid’ has been bandied around way too much with respect to Israel. Apartheid was an official policy of the South African government, of which that government was a proud and honest proponent! I think that the difference between that and the legal system in Israel ought to be self-evident.
Ye Gods. Not this shit again.
Some roads are for Israelis only. ISRAELIS, not Jews. This is due to security reasons. It doesn’t matter if you’re an Arab or a Jew or a Circassian or a Roma or a Druze, as long as you’re Israeli. It’s not as if there’s a way to know - your ethnicity is not written down in your documentation or anything.
For some strange reason, we Israeli evilly insist on not being blown up. Some roads attract Palestinians who want to blow Israelis up. Solution - prevent Palestinians from getting on these roads. Better than shooting them all, innit?
Drima-
I think NC hits it right on the button. There is racism…even hate towards Arabs and Arabs towards Jews. And religious against non-religious, and lots of people don’t like the Russians…and some are negative towards Ethiopians etc. However, compared to most countries, even here in the USA, it is a walk in the park…
The big problem with the Muslims though…it is primarily about SECURITY and TRUST and FEAR…and that is what 99% of the actually laws are based on…not a sense of entitlement or superiority.
But are there are shortage of assholes in Israel….shiat no. Name a country where everybody is nice….ah how about Germany? Sudan? Ah…Iraq
With the separate roads the question is it is justified to infringe on other people’s rights and freedom to protect yourself against ‘them’?
Complicated issue because of course you can’t - if(!) only their own authorities would take responsibility and tried to prevent attacks.
Which they don’t and they can’t (the civil war that’s happening now is proof of their incapability to uphold security)
Drima, forgive Raccoon’s temper. Reading something by Shulamit Aloni can easily get on an israeli’s nerves.
Regarding the Ethiopian Jews. Is there racism? Yes, absolutely. Is it prevalent, even part of government policy? Heck no. Though from what I could gather, parts of the Ethiopian community have complaints against the government. The four I’m familiar with have to do with blood donations that got thrown away, government (or government directed) housing that was bad, immigration quotas to their remaining relatives in Ethiopia and issues with the Rabbinical courts with regards to being counted as a Jew according to Jewish religious law.
Now, the blood donations. Policy was to throw away donations from Ethiopian Jews, because of their place of origin. They were just a lot more likely to carry nasties in their blood, man. Now, I’m not sure who was the Political Correctness genius who didn’t think to simply explain the reason instead of playing pretend, but that’s another story. The problem is that this policy did not change even with regards to those members of the Ethiopian Jewish community who were born here, in Israel. This, I think, had little to do with racism and much to do with the penpushes who update policies once every quarter-century. This policy has now been updated, as far as I know, with clear information regarding those who were born in Ethiopia, and actual acceptance of donations from those born here.
Immigration quotas. The original quota was supposed to be doubled this year. It wasn’t, because of the July war. The money that should have funded this doubling was rerouted, as did a whole lot of money, including money meant for people already living here.
Government housing. Now, from my own personal experience, government-directed housing sucks. It always does, regardless of what your country of origin and skin-color is. Now, what *is* closer to the issue here is that mostly said housing is in poor towns, which doesn’t really help the families to leave the instant poverty the arrived into. This is in fact a much older complaint, which the Sephardic Jews still raise.
Regarding the religious thing. Not sure how this evolved, and it was only really an issue to the recent-most arrivals (who lived in the more populated cities, and pretended to be Christian to be accepted, which raised questions as to who exactly married who over the years). Now, I know the solution offered by the Rabbinical courts back in the day was to skip the religious studies (which take up to two years) and go directly to the practical parts of the conversion rite, which involves circumcision if you’re male(or a tiny cut in that region if already circumcised), a dip in a purification pool (Mikve in Hebrew), and taking on a Jewish name. Takes about twenty minutes in total.
From the Rabbinical courts’ point of view, their (Ethiopians’) hearts were in the right place, but the technicality had to be overcome somehow. The community agreed, or rather almost agreed, until a political party got involved in the matter. The party in question was Meretz, a party Shulamit Aloni led for some time. So, the party members told them that it wasn’t a religious matter at all, that it was all racism because they were black, and that no one should force them to pass any rites.
Now, Meretz object to the very existence of Rabbinical courts, so they used the Ethiopian Jewish community as one uses a card in a game. The Ethiopian Jews believed Meretz, got angry, refused the Rabbinical courts, who also got angry, and said that as far as *they* are concerned the community members can pass the entire giyur (conversion to Judaism), if and when they decide they want to marry anyone but members of their own community. This sucks, yes, but it still isn’t an issue of racism. Petty politics and religious laws, yes, but not racism. And I have no idea how this matter evolved further, if at all.
howie Says:
January 28th, 2007 at 3:25 am
Drima-
I think NC hits it right on the button. There is racism…even hate towards Arabs and Arabs towards Jews. And religious against non-religious, and lots of people don’t like the Russians…and some are negative towards Ethiopians etc. However, compared to most countries, even here in the USA, it is a walk in the park…
i think this whole thing is a great example of the difference between Israelis and arabs.. there are certain racial tensions between Israelis … and israelis are the first to admit them …actually they are second.. because the first to talk about this are usually arabs..the author of this blog for example once brought forward a certain episode that happened decades ago with sephardic jews…
yet Israel is one of the most successful melting pots i know.. one of my lebanese friends who visited israel was amazed how racially diverse israelis look .. .. yet most israelis are now integrated and intermarried …
but people who discuss israeli racism and apartheid on the other side, if they dont slaughter each other by hundreds of thousands as in sudan or during the civil war in lebanon, they should consider this an achievement… for example i saw numerous posts about israeli racism and apartheid on lebanese blogs .. most are based on evidence of something that happened decades ago… yet unlike israelis the lebanese are everything but intermarried .. mixed marriages are rare among lebanese even between different sects of christians … and unlike israelis the lebanese don’t have an option of civil marriage … and all this is after centuries of living together compared to 60 years of Israel’s existence… but given that the arab culture and Islam strongly disprove of the use of mirrors, there is nobody there who can point to the lebanese the absurdity of the situation…
Actually, now that I think about it; there is apartheid in Israel. It’s by law and it should perhaps be opposed.
The first such law that I can think of is the law that forces Jews and Druze to serve in the army while non-Druze Arabs don’t have to.
The second law is the treaty with Jordan that grants Muslims control over the temple mount, where they, apparently legally, deny Jews the right to pray on the temple mount.
Here’s what would be involved in removing the racist apartheid:
1. Draft Israeli Arabs, force them to serve in the army and defend the country. Treat them EXACTLY LIKE JEWS should they fail to do their duty for any reason.
2. Force the Muslims who control the temple mount to open it up for everyone. Treat them exactly like Jews who try to keep unarmed people away from holy sites.
Is the thought of treating Jews and Arabs the same scary yet?
I think I found this link on Raccoon’s blog:
http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm
Seems a good article. It sort of leaves out Arab Jews and how they fit into the problem, but otherwise it explains a lot.
As usual guys, thanks for your feedback. I already understand the situation within Israel itself regarding “apartheid” and racism related issues. However my concern was about the issue of there being an apartheid against the Palestinians. Sure security is defintely a reason and that is understandable but I believe when you have racist soldiers applying the security measures, their racism becomes part of the whole deal and hence it becomes security + apartheid.
Well, it would depend on how many of those soldiers are/were racist, and how such behavior was treated by their commanders. Were racism widespread, or encouraged, then it would indeed be de-facto racist policy even if the higher command did not intend it to be.
But thing is, racist behavior is considered a discipline infraction in the IDF, and by ‘behavior’ I mean mere words or gestures. Discipline infractions can earn one a cell, if repeated enough times, and anything worse is certain to.
Drima-
You have a real hard time controlling what individuals or small groups might get into…
But you know it goes both ways too. If you have folks cursing you, threatening you and trying to kill you…what appears as racism is actually just plain dislike…
Again…the bottom line is security…This situation could have been solved long ago if there was any organized will on the Palestinian side…but THEY had consistently choosen rejectionism, maximalism and terror…then when we strike back…they play victim, call Israel the aggressor. Oh…this argument just goes round and round and round.
From their view…we are the bad guys that stole their land and terrorize them.
From our view…when we started coming back to OUR land it was “Turkey” and had been for about 400 years. Most of us do accept the Palestinians have very legitamate claims…so do we…but we see it is “OK…we can share this and make it work”…they consistently have not.
But apartheid…that is propogandic hyperbole to the maximum.
“With the separate roads the question is it is justified to infringe on other people’s rights and freedom to protect yourself against ‘them’?”
What other people’s rights?
There is no such thing as an enemy’s right to use roads.
Drima, it’s still not apartheid. Choose another word, if you must, but don’t make it sound like its a government policy, when we’re telling you that it isn’t one. Apart from anything else, apartheid, in South Africa (which is the only country to have instituted such a policy) was an internal policy that applied only to citizens and residents of South Africa. Palestinians are not citizens or residents of Israel. Therefore, there can be no parallel between South Africa’s official policy, and what you are trying to pin onto Israel.
Sorry, I can’t accept this kind of polemic.
Some words are just too beautiful to give up on, just like that
“Apart from anything else, apartheid, in South Africa (which is the only country to have instituted such a policy) was an internal policy that applied only to citizens and residents of South Africa.”
South Africa was merely the only country to talk openly about that policy.
Many Arab countries have such systems though. And Iran does.
Israel differentiates between he religious communities, but not because the Zionists existed, but because it was done by the Turks before and because Arab Israelis would probably not accept having to follow the same laws as Jewish Israelis (think draft and punishment for treason).
Andrew - what are you talking about? The differences between religious communities in Israel is merely in the field of religious affairs, and even in that respect the same civil law applies - it is the law that states that each religious group is to be governed by its own religious laws, with respect to matters of private law and religious affairs only.
The army’s policy of recruitment is not a law enacted by parliament, but is an internal matter of military policy. It does not, by the way, outlaw the recruitment of non-Jews, but rather, makes it a matter of choice, as opposed to Jewish recruitment, which is compulsory (at least in theory, and provided that you are not ultra-religious, for instance). The laws of treason, to the extent that they exist at all, apply to all Israeli citizens, of whatever religious or ethnic background, just as all other Israeli laws apply to all Israeli citizens.
I really don’t know what you mean by your statement that “Arab Israelis would probably not accept having to follow the same laws as Jewish Israelis” - They do accept it and they do follow them. There is no separate body of laws governing Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis. I don’t know where you got this impression from, but it is simply wrong.
Alright so maybe apartheid isn’t the right word as there are clear differences between what was being applied in South Africa and what is being applied today in Palestine.
I just googled some stuff and did some extra reading. I can now clearly see why the term apartheid would offend an Israeli… especially one who’s family had been a victim of the holocaust.
Calling what’s being done by Israel in Palestine apartheid would be inaccurate since the policies are not racially motivated but rather more based on security concerns. Some similaraties do exist however when it comes to application eg: check points, restriction of movement etc. but like I said, South Africa’s model was primarily racially motivated. Israel’s isn’t.
“I really don’t know what you mean by your statement that “Arab Israelis would probably not accept having to follow the same laws as Jewish Israelis” - They do accept it and they do follow them.”
I thought I was clear enough. My bad.
IF the law was applied equally, Arab Israelis WOULD be drafted, just like Jewish Israelis.
And IF these Arab Israelis then refused to fight, which is presumably what the government and military think might happen when they decided not to draft them, they WOULD be treated just like Jewish or Druze Israelis who refuse to fight.
Just imagine the uproar.
Andrew - ’s’not the reason, mate. The military worries - and rightly so - that if draft was compulsory for Israeli Arabs, every few months one of them would go on a shooting spree. And be hailed as a hero by the other Arabs living in Israel.
There are very, very few Israeli Arabs. Most of these are Christian. The rest are just Arabs living in and off Israel while hating it and often undermining it.
It’s the sad truth, one that Israel will have to face pretty soon.
Drima-
What Raccoon says is a very politically incorrect truth. There are not a whole lot of Israeli Arabs (Druse and most Christians not included) who feel strong loyalty to the country they are citizens of. They absolutely present a 5th column and Israel rightfully is suspicious of many of them, though it is not PC to say so.
Once again…many of these guys are not doing half-bad…many have private homes as opposed to the typical Israeli small apartment in large building complexes, have businesses and often collect state benefits…
It is an issue that folks don’t much talk about…but it is there. It should be said that there are not a whole lot of cases of Arab citizens turning against Israel…but there is no real shortage of such cases either.
I noticed nobody responded directly to my previous comment… any thoughts?
Drima-
“Some similaraties do exist however when it comes to application eg: check points, restriction of movement etc. but like I said, South Africa’s model was primarily racially motivated. Israel’s isn’t.”
Look…find Israel on the map…it is that little spot with the name of the country written in the ocean…look who her neighbors are…all, within the past 35 years have attacked her…two now have tentative peace agreements which are not supported by large parts of their populations. Beyond the immediate neighbors are good friends like Iraq, Saudia, Iran etc.
Can you blame us for being just a little edgy?
It is NOT about race….I am married to a fucking Arab darker than many Palestinians…good Lawd..
Yes…it is about security…fear, distrust, lots of bad past experiences.
Look..I could go on and on…but many Arabs live great in Israel…nice homes, nice cars, businesses. They travel freely , they don’t have special lic. plates…I know I worked with them…like at Kfar Yasif…eat in their homes…why nicer than any I lived in or any of my Israeli relatives…I study in school with them…including with Palestinians…
Yes…there are checkpoints….but WHY…really come on…did you know that for every successful terrorist attack..there are scores…maybe hundreds that are prevented because of various security checks? Did you know every Israeli is searched before going into markets, banks etc.?
Is there hatred and racism is Israel? Yes…yes…like there is in many places…many hate the Palestinians…very few want to hurt them…just don’t want to be killed by them…
Look at the numbers Drima…13,000 million Jooz in the WHOLE FREK’IN WORLD…less than 1/2 of that in Israel…yes I know we control the World Bank, Wall Street, the US Government, the World Media (including al Jezeera) and it is really us dressed up like darkies killing the Darfurians…but still…can you blame us for being just a little nervous about security…We have been hunted, robbedand killed by Nazis, Communists, Arabs, Spaniards, Germans, Poles, Croatians, Crusaders etc and for 100’s of years. Did you know the word ghetto is from Italy…where they used to lock us behind the gates at night in our own little JOOZ towns? We have been around as a people for 3,500 years…do the MATH!!! Algebretically…should there not be at least a few more of us around?
Fear, distrust, it is in our very genes, just like, ironically, a love for mankind and justice is in our genes…and many of our enemies know this play it in the most manipulative and skillful manner.
Drima…what would the government of Sudan have done to a group of people, living next door…who were bombing, threatening, kidnapping, lynching, rocketing and promising to exterminate you for the past 60 years AND they had the power of the Israeli army? What would they have done? Would Sudan allow for say…some Maasaleit guys to walk into an ice cream palor full of kids and blow everybody up and not respond? Would they have peace talks with them?
Security my good friend and fear based on reality and history.
Did that begin to answer your question?
Nicely said, Howie
“Did you know every Israeli is searched before going into markets, banks etc.?”
I wonder how many Arab countries around Israel have to employ similar measures because of a danger of Jewish terrorist attacks.
Apartheid is impossible in the West Bank and Gaza. The West Bank and Gaza are not sovereign. The citizens there do not have to be considered Israelis. It is up to Israel. Just like it is up to the US as to who gets to vote in Peurto Rico, or who they considered to be US citizens in Hawaii prior to 1959, when it became an official state.
Israel has no obligation to treat the Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank as equal citizens, in fact, they really aren’t Israel’s problem at all, other than the fact they want to push Israel into the sea.
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