Another Great Israeli Accomplishment
Posted on November 9, 2006
Filed Under Israel, Palestine |
Do I need to point out which one? The massacre is all over the news right now. The UN Security Council as usual will most probably do nothing and Hamas will continue firing rockets into Israel. The deadly deadlock continues. Meanwhile Israel is “sorry”. I’m sorry too… sorry for the families of the poor innocent victims and children who had to die in their sleep… sorry that this sick conflict still continues and won’t seem to stop for a long time to come… sorry that the word “sorry” doesn’t change anything.
Comments
168 Responses to “Another Great Israeli Accomplishment”
Did anybody already propose that the “Palestinians” should stop firing rockets into Israel in order to get rid of the problem of Israel shooting back?
The Jews will NEVER stop firing back. History taught them that.
It’s up to the “Palestinians” to look after their own.
These things shouldn’t happen!
The sick conflict will continue until the “Palestinians” decide to end it.
It’s up to them.
If Israel stops firing, the “Palestinians” will kill all the Jews.
If the “Palestinians” stop firing, the war will be over.
I hope you’re right Andrew and I sure do wish it was that simple. Blind hate has taken the Arab world beyong the point of no return… at least for now.
I really don’t understand these people.
Hamas TOLD them what their plans were. They VOTED for Hamas. Hamas DID start the war they claimed they would start.
And now they get what a war ALWAYS gets people. And they scream bloody murder.
What’s the point?
Do the “Palestinians” want war or not?
If they don’t want war, they should say so and stop it.
If they do want war, they will have to get used to losing people.
It’s not only the Arab world. I have met people in the west who see themselves as “neutral” in the conflict and propose the deportation of millions of Jews to solve the problem. (The same people consider deportation of millions of Arabs to be a genocidal crime.)
But what really ticks me of are those people who believe they are “supporters of Palestine” and then believe that Israel’s position (two-state solution, peace) is the PLO’s. They are the worst anti-Semites, because they KNOW that a two-state proposal exists and that it could be a solution, and they naturally assume that it cannot be the Jews who support it, so it must be the Arabs.
Neither of the two groups described above see themselves as anything but the most tolerant of people.
At least the Arab hatred is more open!
I just saw a picture of a the dead bodies of a girl and her younger sister on top of the body of their mother in a single morgue drawer. Morgues can’t even contain all the incoming bodies and funeral processions are nonstop.
Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.”
“I just saw a picture of a the dead bodies of a girl and her younger sister on top of the body of their mother in a single morgue drawer. Morgues can’t even contain all the incoming bodies and funeral processions are nonstop.”
Yes, it’s a mystery for me why the “Palestinians” want this to continue or why they target civilians all the time and then complain when Israel hits their people in return.
Why don’t they stop firing rockets?
“Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.” ”
And here we see the difference between the two. The “Palestinians” would only stop attacks when no Jews are left.
Stop trying to kill Jews and none of this will ever happen again!
Damn it. It’s not difficult.
The Jews are not taking it like they used to. Deal with it. These poor people already have. Don’t let it happen any more!
Damn it. It really isn’t difficult.
“Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.” ”
I can tell you what happened. Some stupid terrorists tried to kill Jews and set up their rocket launcher too close to some more valuable Arabs, probably to draw Israeli fire on them.
And Israel, like the evil bloodsuckers they are, shot back at the terrorists and accidentally hit the civilians.
It’s not difficult.
It’s a Pavlov thing: shoot at an Israeli and he will shoot back. What’s so surprising about that?
Andrew, deeeeeeeeeep breath mate. It was indeed a regretable mistake…
Breath in, breath out… Yup, you got it.
One more time.
deeeeeeeeeep breath mate…
Drime, you are right.
But I am sick and tried of these animals TRYING to kill Israelis just for the sake of killing them and then complaining when the same thing happens to their own population when Israel shoots back.
And the world sympathizes with the victims (and it should) but never tells the “Palestinians” to f*ck and STOP the stupid war that hurts them so badly.
If Israel stops the war, Israel will die.
If the “Palestinians” stop the war, nobody will die.
It is that simple! It’s not a deadlock at all.
Andrew - from the POV of most of the world, we belong in Treblinka and Auschwitz, not Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Nothing has changed in the attitude towards Jews in the West in the past, oh, 500 years. A time will come and the dumb kikes will get it - whether they’re the Court Jews of the Americans (you know this lovely tradition?) or the pathetic, cowering untermensch of Europe.
And in the meanwhile - Palestinians cannot stop the war. They are a weapon… and it’s not up to a weapon to stop doing anything.
PS
Apparently, the reason for this unfortunate mistake was a malfunctioning targeting system of a cannon. The shell landed 500 meters off mark… now what kind of a sick terrorist fuck fires at people 500 meters from a densely populated area? Oh, wait… it’s the same kind of a terrorist fuck that fires at people from the middle of a crowd of children, the same kind of a terrorist fuck that calls for women to hide him with their bodies, the same kind of a terrorist fuck that takes hold one of the holiest churches of Christianity, holds the priests hostage and desecrates the altar.
I said it before and I will say it again - the only solution is for Israel to be a fortress-state populated by warrior-scientists. We’re halfway there… not nearly enough.
Oh, another possibility for this particular disaster - it is not impossible that a shell has hit a Quassam cache, causing it to explode. The investigation is only a day old, but we’ll probably have a definite answer by the beginning of the next week.
“The investigation is only a day old, but we’ll probably have a definite answer by the beginning of the next week. ”
Yes, we will. In a few days.
But that doesn’t matter. The rest of the world already have their answer. The Jews killed innocent people.
The rest of the world also KNEW that an Israeli shell had hit the beach of Gaza. They somehow KNEW that it wasn’t a Hamas mine, but that it must have been an Israeli shell. They knew immediately.
There will be peace once the world cannot see the difference between Jews and other people any more, once the world sees an incident and doesn’t KNOW that it was the Jews’ fault.
We have seen the problem even here with Drima. He reads about Uranium shells being used by Israel and immediately KNEW that a) they are very very dangerous (they are not) and b) there is no doubt that Israel used them (Israel did not, apparently). And he is not easily fooled. But it still seemed to him a given that the article was right.
It’s terrible.
What can we do? Should Jews assemble under the Star of David flag and fight back. Israel does.
But let’s ask the enemy, or rather the religion the enemy claims to represent. What does the Quran say Jews should do?
“O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.”
Done.
“Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.”
Mingled crowd. Done for the most part. Some Jews are still not in Israel. What is it with all the religions predicting that all Jews being in their home land again being so d*mn important?
Was Muhammed a Zionist?
Andrew - it’s not just Muslims. For Muslims, we’re dhimmis (and the sons of pigs and apes). For Christians and post-Christians, we’re untermensch (and a kind of a pest - rats, for preferense. Oh, and we killed Jesus).
It’s not about religion. It’s about ancient anti-semitism of Europeans and the equally ancient anti-semitism of the Arabs (although in their case it appears to be religion-induced and mixed with a healthy dose of European anti-semitism).
And the Quran is self-contradictory in the extreme, as you know. You could theoretically infer from it that Muslims should respect and help Jews, especially when it comes to Jews living in Israel. Or you could infer that Jews are to be hated and killed wherever we are.
Humans are not driven by logic, or reason, or kindness. They are driven by stupidity and malice.
“And the Quran is self-contradictory in the extreme, as you know. You could theoretically infer from it that Muslims should respect and help Jews, especially when it comes to Jews living in Israel.”
I have read the Quran and I have read interpretations.
It seems to me that the Quran has generally two types of text and two levels of detail.
Some of the Quran is what Muhammed claimed were G-d’s words. Some of the Quran is very clearly what Muhammed himself said, with G-d in agreement, presumably.
And some of the Quran is about the very time Muhammed made it all up (or received it from an angel, it doesn’t matter). And some of the Quran is about eternity. Some rules were for the moment, some were forever.
You will find that negative statements about Jews were not G-d’s law but Muhammed’s own opinion and about a current war against other Arab cities, some of them very Jewish, and not about eternity.
The Quran’s position regarding Israel is very clear: It is Jewish land and Jews will mingle there. There will be two exiles and not a third.
Muhammed knew about the first exile and he lived during the time of the second. What he didn’t know was that the second exile would go on for another 1300 years. From his point of view, the second exile was about 400 years long already and was about to end (as he received word from G-d, so he believed, to drive the Romans/Greeks out of the holy land).
Muslims today forget their roots. Very few of them still believe Muhammed’s words, very few of them are willing to fight or die for Muhammed’s words. But all too many are willing to fight or die for whatever kills the most Jews.
Muhammed had to deal with such people. But I bet he thought that he would be the last person who had to.
You know guys, I wholeheartedly wish for the day when this whole thing can be over with…
Raccoon and Andrew, believe it or not, one of the main reasons I support the Jews to have their right for a home and Jewish Jerusalem is due to my understanding of Islam. It’s the religious right of the Jews and even Islam says so… The problem is that the exercising of this right has become a very violent one thanks to people like Hamas and Ahamdinejad who want Israel wiped off the map.
It always seems like the media is just sitting down and waiting for Israel to screw up… Kinda like JihadWatch but in this case it’s IsraelWatch… Bam mistake and it’s all over the news… That’s why this latest incident is another accomplishment… The MSM is going on and on about it.
At least people like this guy give me hope…. And no he has no ties to terror… Innocent until proven guilty… I like the guy and I think he can make a positive change… even if it’s a small one…
Anyways, I know you guys must be frustrated… I am too… Huge positive differences are hard to make but you guys should know you made a big difference on the outlook and perspective of this Drima right here…
DRIMA
AS LONG AS THERE IS PEOPLE WHO BELIEVES PALESTINEANS ARE ANIMALS (JUST LIKE MR ANDREW) PEACE WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE .
I DO NOT SEE THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN SUICIDE BOMING AND THE BOMBING IN CIVILIAN AREAS .
Salma, no need to use capital letters and get all angry… Relax a little… You’re right. Andrew, was very wrong to call Palestinians animals… very very wrong but I doubt he meant what he said. He’s clearly in a very bad mood today since he has never cursed on my comments section previously. Right Andrew?
“I DO NOT SEE THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN SUICIDE BOMING AND THE BOMBING IN CIVILIAN AREAS .”
It depends. If Israelis are bombing civilians on purpose then they are no different from Osama Bin Laden but I honestly don’t think they’re doing such things on purpose… Bombing innocents on purpose does Israel no good at all… It only harms Israel and worsens its image worldwide further… Incidents like this recent one are accidents that should not happen.
Suicide bombings on Israeli civilians in buses or restaurants are wrong. They target innocent civilians on purpose. However suicide bombings on military targets and soldiers are completely justified… There’s nothing wrong with them except for the act of suicide itself but in this case Palestinians have no choice but to use such methods since they have no fighter planes or tanks.
Salma, there will be peace when groups like Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist and when Israel withdraws from all of the 1967 borders and ends its unjust and illegal occupation of Palestinian land. East Jerusalem for Palestine and Jewish Jerusalem to Israel. Groups like Hamas are an obstacle and regretable Israeli mistakes like the most recent just fuel anger further.
Yalla ya Salma… salamu alaikum.
Hi all,
I just wanted to share the result of a long discussion I had with a palestinian that year, because it helped me a lot to understand some part of the “deadlock” as you called it, Drima.
When we started the discussion, I was convinced, that his life there is really miserable and that I would never be able to stand it. Yet, when he said, that they would live in the biggest concentration camp ever, I jumped. (I am German, having grown up with the history of the holocaust - if anything is a taboo here, then this is it, and with the best reason!!). I got angry, because I somehow had the feeling, that he used this expression as a weird way of “PR”, to get more attention for his situation. Only our respect for each other made it possible to keep up the dialogue. (For both of us it was very hard, and I have stopped talking to people before because of that).
It took me a long while and a lot of effort to realize, that he really is convinced, that the Israelis are out there to kill and destroy the palestinians.
Now, I won’t go into this discussion here, but when I see the comment of The Raccoon (and also Andrew Brehm) above, I have the feeling that there are people on both sides, who are sure, that the other simply IS going to destroy you. (Whether this is plausible or not is probably more a question of the point of view).
This does not help to change anything. I know. But it helped me to understand drastic reactions of both sides better.
A from Berlin, bingo!! And that’s why this conflict is so screwed up… The deadlock will remain as long as there are those on the extremes of both side who believe the other is out to kill them…
I know Palestinians who believe that and ones who don’t… ones who hate Israelis and Jews passionately and ones who have Israeli friends back home and speak Hebrew.
And guys, the world is not full of antisemites. Sure, you can find them anywhere (btw did you watch Borat? Check video.google.com … He makes fun on stupid stereotypes), but in most places, they are a minority
.
One problem in mass-media times is that the public’s sympathy is very often with the weak and /or the poor. Now in this conflict, you see only the poor Palestinian civilians hit, their mother’s crying, and on the other side the highly equipped Israelian army. The powerful one is always being more criticized.
I agree totally with you that Jews were persecuted throughout their history and have suffered horrific crimes. However, the Arab world does not see Israel as a victim. They only do see the displacing of Arabs during the foundation of Israel. They feel humiliated by the overwhelming power. And they love the permanent victims’ status. Too often, they tend to forget that before the second Intifada, they had about the highest standard of living throughout the Arab world and therefore were not populer in ‘their culture’. Also, antisemitism is used by a number of Arab leaders to keep the focus away from ther failing gouvernments.
Besides that, Israel (the gouvernment) should be more aware on PR. The Lebanese war was just a disaster. Most people I talked to did not even know (or they already ‘forgot’) that Hesb’allah started the war.
One last thing: I hate this stupid showing of images of civilians bodies. IMO a war has never been fought with such care on civilians. Sorry to say that, but 1000 ppl killed in 3 weeks is nothing, even if they were all civilians. Any loss of life is horrible and has to be avoided. Bus as mankind is too stupid to get things done without war, you have to play it on the rules. Most Arabs did not realize that the past war was fought with ‘brakes on’, which might be one reason why Hezb’allah did not totally lose the war. If you engage a war, no matter about whether it is fought the regular or the guerilla way, don’t whine about casualties.
They belong to the war as a wheel to a car (sry stupid symbol). War is pure chaos, and chaos cannot be contained. Don’t unleash powers you cannot control.
A and Drima -
I am a naive Raccoon, I guess. I believe people. And when someone says repeatedly that he wants to kill me, tries to do so continuously (disregarding personal safety, prosperity and everything else just to kill me) and keeps explaining that - yes - we wants me dead, dead, dead and nothing can change that… I kind of tend to believe that he might actually mean what he says.
This is exactly what the Palestinians have been doing since they were created in the 60s.
The only people who want to actually kill Palestinians are Kahanists, and they are a very small group of psychopaths, outlawed and presecuted in Israel. They also want to kill gays, and lots of other people - they are religious psychos.
Schonerleben -
I agree with everything you say. Unfortunately, Israeli politics is a horrid, filthy swamp. These morons can’t find their arse with a map, much less create good PR.
Raccoon, I’m sorry dude. I refuse to believe that all or the majority of Palestinians want to destroy Israel and wipe it off the map. I’ve met too many sane Palestinians to believe that. Hamas was an alternative to corrupt Fatah. That’s why I believe the Palestinians voted for them and not because they wanted Israel destroyed. That’s pathetic. A few weak suicide bombers can’t do shit to Israel. They only end up hurting themselves and their people. That’s why I hate the stupidity of Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.
Schonerleben, I hate to say it but I agree with almost all of what you say.
The Raccoon,
I also tend to believe what Drima just said. BUT I did not go into this part of discussion on purpose. I know that I am only looking from the outside, not living there, and trying to get a picture of what is going on by second hand information. (I try to get as much information from as different angles I can - in order to get a broader picture.. it still is second hand information.. and not only the discussion with the palestinian showed me, that my way of seeing things is not “the general truth” - if there is something like that out there).
Anyway. My point was to say, that I realized that on both sides, people believe in the threat to be killed and destroyed. I did not say, whether it is true or not. I cannot. I don’t know the future. All I can see is, that killing takes place on both sides already. So it is not an empty threat.
Some days ago and in this thread again, you wrote something about the palestinians as “weapons” and that their only cause of existance would be to destroy Israel. (or something along these lines). In my eyes this looks pretty much like you would deny them their right of existance..
I guess I would feel the same way, too, if I was convinced that they were out to kill me. From a distance and from the outside it yet reminds me of the discussion by radical palestinians about Israel.
I don’t know, if I go too far with this, but my impression is, that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have yet realized how powerful they are in the eyes of the other (in order to be capable of destroying a nation, you have to have a lot of power). And thus don’t realize that they are taken seriously as a deadly enemy (not by all, of course, but by those I am talking of).
It was only meant as an observation. Not as a blame.
A -
When I say that the Palestinians are a weapon-nation, I am merely stating a fact. The Palestinians were created as a nation in the 60s, with the explicit goal of being used as a weapon against Israel. It was discussed and decided pretty openly by the Arab League.
The purposes of individual Palestinians are different from the purposes of Palestinians as a nation. Individuals usually want pretty much the same things - sex, good living, satisfaction of their basic mental needs, etc. As a nation, it’s a whole different thing. The sole unifying element of Palestinian national identity is the desire to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews. It’s as simple as that - Palestinians are Arabs from many different tribes all over the Islamic world mixed with small populations of local tribes. They all hate each other almost as much as they hate Jews - the falakhs hate the urbans, the Arabs hate the Bedouins, the different clan-villages hate each other and everybody else, the different ethnicities hate each other (see Edomites for perfect example. They are a race of white-skinned, green-eyed, red-haired, belligerent tiny people, and they have a relationship of mutual hatred with every other ethnic group calling itself Palestinians), the Muslims hate the Christians… it’s a bloody, chaotic mess, held together mostly with hatred of Israel.
I don’t deny them their right to exist - that would be pretty Nazi of me to do so. I just have a slight problem with a neighbor that bases its national identity and aspirations on the need to kill me. I’m weird this way.
Drima - no, they can’t destroy Israel. But they do their best… and as they say, they only have to succeed ONCE. All it takes is enough time.
Oh, and Palestinians had other options besides psychotic, evil Hamas and psychotic, corrupt Fatah. They could have voted for non-corrupt, only slightly psychotic parties that have a pro-Palestinian (as opposed to anti-Israeli) political basis. Hamas are much like the National Democrat-Socialists of pre-WW2 Germany and Italian Fascists of the same period - they promise to make the trains run on time (and unlike the two other examples, they do not deliver even on this promise), invoke images of glory, sacrifice and all that crap and say they’ll kill lots of “bad guys”.
The Palestinians are not children. They knew exactly what they were voting for. Give them some credit.
“You’re right. Andrew, was very wrong to call Palestinians animals… very very wrong but I doubt he meant what he said.”
What are you talking about? I was referring to Hamas and Fatah. And I meant what I said.
“But I am sick and tried of these animals TRYING to kill Israelis just for the sake of killing them ”
I would also refer to Nazis as animals, but not to Bavarians or Saxons.
Why was it obvious to the both of you that the term “animals” could only possibly refer to “Palestinians”, even though in my statement I specifically referred to those who try to kill Jews?
“However suicide bombings on military targets and soldiers are completely justified… There’s nothing wrong with them except for the act of suicide itself but in this case Palestinians have no choice but to use such methods since they have no fighter planes or tanks.”
Why do the “Palestinians” have the right to violate a peace treaty they signed? How is that “completely justified”?
“Palestinians” do have a choice besides killing. They could at any point in history simply stop fighting.
Egypt and Jordan did.
“Salma, there will be peace when groups like Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist and when Israel withdraws from all of the 1967 borders and ends its unjust and illegal occupation of Palestinian land. East Jerusalem for Palestine and Jewish Jerusalem to Israel.”
Won’t happen.
First, Golan was lost fair and square by Syria when Syria attacked Israel. There is no international law that forbids taking territory from an attacker.
Gaza and the West Bank were lost fair and square by Egypt and Jordan when they attacked Israel. The only issue is that the territories were not their to lose. And THAT is why I advocate Arab Palestinian sovereignty over these territories. Although it does destroy my point when an Israeli withdrawal like in Gaza and southern Lebanon is only understood as an invitation to kill more Jews rather than as a chance to build something.
There is NOTHING illegal about occupying territory won in a war, btw. We don’t need special laws to make something Israel does illegal. It’s either wrong or right, but it doesn’t become “wronger” just because it’s Israel. And when you claim that occupying territory is illegal when Israel does it, we have entered the realm of “wronger”.
As for Jerusalem, I doubt many Israelis want to keep East-Jerusalem. And the Arabs there, in contrast to those in the north, seem to want to be ruled by Fatah or some such group.
Israel will keep the old city, in the interest of universal access to the holy sites and since it is the holy city of Judaism. (You will find that I advocate Muslim control over Mecca just as strictly. In fact, I think the Saudis should give the entire region back to Muhammed’s family, i.e. the King of Jordan!)
“It took me a long while and a lot of effort to realize, that he really is convinced, that the Israelis are out there to kill and destroy the palestinians.”
Of course he is. Everybody keeps telling him. And then some maniac attacks Israel and invites retaliation and uses it as an example of Israeli oppression. Did he actually know any Jews? Does he consider attacks on Jewish civilians as at least as wrong as civilian deaths on his side when Israel tried to kill terrorists hiding among civilians?
At least he can get sympathy all over the world, even if he votes for Hamas.
“Now, I won’t go into this discussion here, but when I see the comment of The Raccoon (and also Andrew Brehm) above, I have the feeling that there are people on both sides, who are sure, that the other simply IS going to destroy you. (Whether this is plausible or not is probably more a question of the point of view).”
Except that somebody shot rockets at my university just to kill me, for no other reason. And that was done from a country that participated in at least one war that was supposed to DESTROY the country I was in. These things make you believe that the other side is going to destroy me, if allowed to.
OTOH, the Arabs seem to base the same belief on the fact that they couldn’t destroy Israel and that Israel fights back when attacked. It is totally different.
“However, the Arab world does not see Israel as a victim. They only do see the displacing of Arabs during the foundation of Israel.”
The displacing of Arabs happened during and after Arab attacks on the country, helped by the local Arab population. It had nothing to do with the foundation of Israel.
“They feel humiliated by the overwhelming power.”
And what exactly do you think Israeli feel when attacked by five Arab countries out to destroy the country? “Overwhelming power” is what you get when a well-Equipped Egyptian army, helped by Soviet technology, and their Arab allies try to destroy Israel while one Jewish tank brigade stops them. That is “overwhelming power”.
Israel’s “overwhelming power” today is the result of Israel’s ability to survive. The Arab countries could have got just as far if they had made different choices.
“I don’t know, if I go too far with this, but my impression is, that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have yet realized how powerful they are in the eyes of the other (in order to be capable of destroying a nation, you have to have a lot of power). ”
Important point, perhaps. Israel DOES have the power to destroy the “Palestinians”. But Israel doesn’t.
One side has the power to destroy, the other has the will. That’s the careful balance.
Disaster strikes of the Arab side becomes more powerful or if they can make Israel angry enough for Israelis to change their mind.
They are trying both strategies.
“The Palestinians are not children. They knew exactly what they were voting for. Give them some credit.”
I’m not sure. I have spoken to one who didn’t know where Ireland was. I told him it was basically England.
“The displacing of Arabs happened during and after Arab attacks on the country, helped by the local Arab population. It had nothing to do with the foundation of Israel.”
Thx for putting me right.
My statement on Israel’s power was no critics. Just one factor which pisses Arabs off.
“Important point, perhaps. Israel DOES have the power to destroy the “Palestinians”. But Israel doesn’t.
One side has the power to destroy, the other has the will. That’s the careful balance.
Disaster strikes of the Arab side becomes more powerful or if they can make Israel angry enough for Israelis to change their mind.
They are trying both strategies.”
Very true. Often enough, when ppl are accusing Israel of genocide, I have to laugh. If Israel had any motivation in doing so, it would be much easier to start with the Muslim/Arab minority living in Israel, about 12% if I am right. Second, it would not take over 60 years to kill the Arab population for such a well trained and equipped army.
I do wonder why not more Arabs get up and fight for a better society. They do not yet realize that most of their problems come from the inside of their culture. But it’s always easier to rally behind some idiots promising the moon beyond all reality…
Andrew - ignorant, yes. Infantile, no… but for some reason they’d have you believe otherwise.
I know people in Israel who’ve never heard of Alexander the Great. Yesterday me and a friend of mine (his grandparents are from Tobago) tried to explain to some random people where the Bermuda Triangle is. It wasn’t only that it was the first time they heard of the name Tobago (or Trinidad), they didn’t have even the most basic map of the world in their minds. Are they ignorant? Shamefully so. Are they children? Absolutely not.
I find myself in complete agreement with Andrew Brehm.
The media and Israeli raids over the decades have time and time again directed us away from the real question…and left people wondering why there’s so much hatred for Jews among Palestinians, and Arabs in general.
Who does the land really belong to?
The displaced Palestinians? Or the Jewish settlers?
Hint: “displaced” & “settlers”
Well, it depends what you mean by the Jewish settlers. The conflict is not only about the settlers in the illegal farms. Anyway, Israel has started to drawback some settlements. Any positive move from Israel in the past few years has led to more violence from the Palestinians. So how can you wonder they stopped the process?
Andrew, I was talking about it from an Islamic perspective… ie. attacking civilians not accepted but military targets okay… I wasn’t talking in the context of any treaty…
AND about the Golan Heights, I admit I missed that one.
Schoenerleben, I think Sam is talking about the period prior to the formation of Israel.
His question also takes us into an area I hate getting into… Zionism and the desire for a Jewish homeland.
“Who does the land really belong to?
The displaced Palestinians? Or the Jewish settlers?
Hint: “displaced” & “settlers””
Could be the displaced Jews or the Arab settlers?
What about the Greek invaders? Or the Romans?
Or the Jews, who the Quran claims own the land.
Or the Turks who owned it before WW1?
Or the British who owned it after WW1?
It seems to be perfectly logical to some that among ALL the different owners and invaders of that particular country, it is only and exactly the Arabs who “own” it. Why?
According to international law, land taken in a defensive war belongs to the victor. That would Israel lord over all of Palestine west of the Jordan, the Golan Heights, and Sinai.
Sinai was given back in a peace treaty. That is fine.
And I think parts of Cisjordan should be given to the Arabs who live there, because it was taken from them by the Egyptians and Transjordanians.
But apart from that it is very clear who “owns” the land: there is a blue flag over it, isn’t there?
The land was owned by Jews, Greeks, Romans, Byzantinians, Arabs, Turks, the British, and the Jews again. All of them took it by force at some point. The Jews have merely behaved slightly better towards the current previous population. How should we punish them?
“I was talking about it from an Islamic perspective… ie. attacking civilians not accepted but military targets okay… I wasn’t talking in the context of any treaty…”
True. But I don’t know off hand what the Quran says about treaties.
Either way, the Islamic perspective is very clear on:
a) whose land it is
b) whether suicide is legal
c) whether killing civilians is legal
d) what the Jews will and must do when attacked
I’m afraid the terrorists and their supporters will go to hell, not just for the suicide bombings, but also for attacking Jews in the holy land, no matter if civilian or military.
A martyr is a Jew who is killed because he is a Zionist.
A martyr is not a self-proclaimed Muslim who dies trying to kill a Jew because of his victim’s Jewish faith.
If you die for your faith, you are a martyr.
But if you willingly die trying to commit murder, and the target is a martyr, then you go to hell. I really do believe that. If there is a hell, it is for those people.
“left people wondering why there’s so much hatred for Jews among Palestinians, and Arabs in general.”
I don’t know. You tell me.
Why were Jews second-class citizens in Muslim countries, long after Christian countries accepted Jews as normal citizens?
Why did Arabs attack Jewish settlements in Palestine long before Israel was founded?
Why did Jews have to flee Arab countries after the formation of Israel (which Arab Jews had nothing to do with)?
Why did Arab armies attack a new state which gave equal rights to its Jewish and Arab citizens?
Why is Judaism illegal in Saudi-Arabia?
Why are Hitler’s Mein Kampfs and the Russian Protocols of the Elders sold in Arab countries? Neither have anything to do with Israel.
Please, do tell me.
I’ve always wanted to know.
Why is there so much hatred for Jews among Arabs?
(And why are “Palestinians” Arabs? What about Jewish Palestinians of families that lived in Palestine before Arabic was ever spoken in the region? When were Jews no longer “Palestinians”? Is it like Germany when Jews were not Germans any more? What happened?)
Guys guys-
There is an important missing point here.
Israel has done in error what the Palestinians and, earlier, Hizballah, have tried like hell to do on purpose…randomly send explosives into civilian areas and kill innocent people.
Does anybody here truly not see how different this is? Israel has weapons that could take out a city block at one shot. If civilian death was their goal, then “only” 19. It would be thousands and thousands per day.
I know Israeli soldiers and how they are trained. I have had numerous friends and family members serve and are serving in the IDF. There is enormous emphasis placed on avoiding civilian casualities.
Can the same be said for the Palestinian side? Where Kassams are daily fired into the air and have NO military value at all…NONE same as the Kaytushas had NO military value…purely anti-civilian, terror weapons. Kassams and suicide attacks are almost always geared towards purposeful and maximum CIVILIAN casualty. If this were the Israeli policy…the slaughter would be off the charts in one day.
I see the moral eqivalency arguement all the time. Israel is certainly not above criticism and we have enormous self-criticism and internal debate all the time. Do the Palestinians? Is their a Palestinian Left? A Palestinian anti-war movement? Can they speak up without being murdered by their own?
Once you take the emotion out of your responses and think this through, it is a very different kind of issue.
“Once you take the emotion out of your responses and think this through, it is a very different kind of issue.”
That’s impossible, mate. Why do you think Israel interests people so much? Why half a million dead in, say, Sudan barely get a two-paragraph notice somewhere at the back of the paper, but if 2 Arabs are killed by Israel, it’s on the front page?
It’s not about politics. Nobody in the “international community” gives a fuck about the Palestinians, really - it’s all about the Evil Joooz taking over the world and daring to get out of the concentration camps.
Drima, my apologies for digressing & with all due respect to Andrew & Raccoon, these 2 guys were Islam-bashing & calling the Quran contradictory & all you say is : “Anyways, I know you guys must be frustrated… I am too… Huge positive differences are hard to make but you guys should know you made a big difference on the outlook and perspective of this Drima right here… ”
Incredible!!!!!
“these 2 guys were Islam-bashing”
Quote even ONE statement I made that was “Islam-bashing”.
“calling the Quran contradictory ”
Quote even ONE statement where I claimed that the Quran was contradictory and explain why such a claim would be bad or wrong or impolite or in any way unacceptable.
What I did do was quote the Quran on the issue. And quite in contrast to claiming that it was contradictory I even concluded that Muhammed was a Zionist because of what the Quran says. You can have an issue with my conclusion or even with my quotes, but you cannot say that I claimed that the Quran contradicts itself.
Hipster, if you look back at previous posts you’d realize there were a lot of debates about Islam and the Quran. Raccoon and I have discussed the idea of God’s existence, dealing with the idea of death, interpretting the Koran’s controversial verses and other things various times. That didn’t only happen here but also on Sandmonkey’s blog. At the end of those discussions 95% of the time Raccoon and I end up disagreeing. Religion is a topic that him and I find very difficult to agree upon.
There’s nothing incredible about me not commenting on Raccoon’s thoughts on the Quran being contradictory. There’s a difference between making direct insults towards Islam and making a point. He wasn’t saying what he said with a specific intent to insult Islam. There were even times where he apologized for the anti-religion things he stated and he clearly said that he has no intent to insult anybody. He just says what he believes. I don’t mind that because I know he doesn’t mean such things as an insult and I know he’s got mutual respect. That’s what’s important when exchanging points. Mutual respect. If anybody came here and started making direct insults, I’ll delete their damn comments. (BTW you want to see direct insults then read some of the comment sections at JihadWatch or LGF). They’re 2 of the biggest blogs in the world. They have no problem even bashing our Prophet and they openly call Islam a violent religion. A lot of the comments there are a hate fest.
As far as I know, Raccoon thinks Islam is crazy (not just Islam but all religions). In fact, he thinks the idea of God is also crazy. I on the other hand think denying God’s existence is the crazy thing to do. Yes, I shall say it again, atheism is crazy but bring a few atheists to this blog and they will all argue against that and instead call me crazy. If they go on making direct insults, I’ll delete them. If they discuss things and say what’s on their mind with mutual respect then I have no problem listening to their views. What’s wrong with trying to learn what others think of my religion or political views? Trying to see the world through other peoples’ eyes can be a very mind broadening experience. Will I agree with atheists on the idea of God’s non-existence for example? Never I predict. Will Raccoon agree with me? I highly doubt it. Hence, I’ve learnt to stop getting into this debate all the time. There are times and specific posts where I can and will since it’s a very fruitfull experience but this post isn’t one. This post is about Israel and the latest massacre in Palestine.
Raccoon was just saying what he thought. The guy is an atheist and he doesn’t even believe that God exists. It’s not like I can force him to believe otherwise. The same is the case with Quran. He believes it’s contradictory. I don’t because I know well it shouldn’t be read and taken literally. There’s a context that must be included otherwise verses will indeed look contradicting.
Besides, Andrew, Raccoon, Tsedek and Nominally Challenged did help change my perspective about Israel and Israelis. Through my discussions with them I’ve become more able to seperate illusions and conspiracy theories from facts. It’s been a wonderful experience so far and I defintely look forward to more as long as I’ve got internet and my computer is working.
(Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and sincere exhortations and debate with them in manners that are most appropriate - Quran, Surat Al-Nahl 16:125)
We humans are driven by a need to communicate, a need to reach out. That’s why I blog, communicate and start discussions with people. It’s a very powerful experience. For now this is my way of trying to make a positive difference in other peoples’ perceptions and hopefully have them do the same to me.
You’ll never find 2 people who agree 100% with each other all the time on all issues. Never. Hence sometimes we just gotta agree to disagree even when it comes to very sensitive topics. Gotta make your skin a little thicker girl and remember, patience is a virtue
Yalla ya bit ya 3ajeeeb inti… Salam
Yei! Understanding and respectful disagreement galore! *raccoonish hugs*
oooffffffffff, now that I have calmed down, I can think clearly.
First off, Andrew, I guess I owe you an apology.Your reply to Raccoon’s” The Quran is contradictory” gave me the impression that you were concurring with him.My bad!!!
Secondly, Drima, Drima, Drima, inta ya 3jeeb, inshallah bas ma takoon za3lan mini 3shan al email.If I’m missing something, lemme know.As for your past arguments with Raccoon, strange, Ive read 98% of the archive & came across only 1 religious argument with Raccoon.Anyway, I apologize.
As for the Raccoon who started the whole mess;), he is always in my prayers.
Back to topic, what have you on the following:
http://sudanesetruthseeker.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-israeli-question-by-antony.html
Back to the main topic
Hipster I just emailed u back…
and no gurl, there is more than 1 argument in this blog… did u for example check the I Like Clitoris post? we did talk about the idea of death for example… therez more… its all there in different posts.
cheers
sorry for the delay.. been away for the weekend.
a) The Raccoon: Thanks for the clarification of your statement! (and sorry for getting too far with my assumptions.
b) Andrew Brehm: the guy I was talking about has spent two years in prison at the age of 15-17 for burning tyres and throwing stones.. probably not the best possibility to meet Jews on a face to face level and to really get to know each other.
But once again: My statement was NOT meant as a blame! (it seems difficult to believe that). But an observation.
I did NOT say that there would be no reason to fear each other. And I did NOT say who’s fault it is or anything like that. Frankly I don’t think I am in the place to make any judgement about that.
sorry that the word “sorry” doesn’t change anything.
How can one expect peace between peoples if one can’t accept an apology for a mistake? I’ve had it with Islamists writing fatwas that say if I accidentally step on a Muslim’s foot, he’s entitled to kill me.
Mistakes happen in war. Israelis are not targeting civliians on purpose, or Gazan terrorists wouldn’t be calling on unarmed women to shield them from Israeli bullets. By contrast, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al generally prefer to target defenseless civilians.
Therefore, if it is the deaths of “innocent victims and children” you care about, your outrage would be best applied to your fellow Arabs, is that not so?
Drima - check out http://smartandfinalisis.wordpress.com/
You like!
“the guy I was talking about has spent two years in prison at the age of 15-17 for burning tyres and throwing stones.. probably not the best possibility to meet Jews on a face to face level and to really get to know each other.”
So his opinion about Jews is based on their reaction when he throws stones at them?
“Mistakes happen in war. Israelis are not targeting civliians on purpose, or Gazan terrorists wouldn’t be calling on unarmed women to shield them from Israeli bullets.”
I for one am proud that my enemies believe that un-armed women and children are a good defence against my troops.
As long as the enemy believes that, we are doing the right thing, I think.
“I did NOT say that there would be no reason to fear each other.”
But I did. The Arabs have no reason to fear Jews unless they try to kill them. If the Arabs would leave the Jews alone, the war would be over.
It’s that simple.
Andrew Brehm,
Yes, I guess so.. and all those other experiences someone makes who is living in a refugee camp in the West Bank. Including - of course - being raised with a clear picture of “the enemy” and who’s fault this is.. And this is the utterly sad thing about it, because all those things make it even more difficult to get out of this vicious circle. The longer I try to understand and learn what is going on, the less points I can find, where I would see a chance for change, because it seems so intertwined. And this is one part of the reasons why I still would second Drima on the “deadly deadlock”..
Maybe I should tell you something about myself, to make it clearer, what I try to say, or not:
When I started to get interested in this conflict (because of people I met, who live there) I had the idea, that somehow, there must be a “good” and a “bad” side.. there must be “right” and “wrong”.. and that I should “do” something about it, because on both sides people told me that it is about the impending elimination of a people. (As a German, who learned - and cherishes - the “never again” after the Holocaust, this obviously seemed to be THE place, I should get involved, if I was serious about this vow.. the question only was “on which side”.. and the longer I tried to find out the “truth” and the “right side”.. the more I got confused. And to be utterly honest this is where I am now: I don’t believe in right and wrong anymore. Nor in good and bad. At least not as absolute entities. It seems to be always a question of the perspective. It leaves me at a point where I feel that I can do nothing. Not even take sides. .. and still something holds me there and I still try to understand and learn. But I could not explain to you or anybody else, not even to myself, why. Maybe it is still the wish that there could be peace one day.
Good night,
a from Berlin
a from berlin,
I am from Berlin as well. I think you should contact me at ajbrehm@gmail.com and then send your phone number after my reply. I think I have an interesting story for you.
http://www.netneurotic.net.
“and the longer I tried to find out the “truth” and the “right side”.. the more I got confused.”
I arrived in Israel when Hizbullah were shooting rockets at my university. The rockets were filled with metal parts and were only capable of killing people. They did not destroy much else. They were not designed to.
The rockets were fired, for several years, only at civilian targets, Arab and Jewish and Druze, in Israel. The world only woke up when Israel shot back, after FIVE years.
The Hizbullah terrorists then hid among Lebanese civilians, obviously assuming that a human shield is a possible defence against Israel. Hizbullah’s opinion of Israel is high: Hizbullah firmly believe that they are safe behind women and children, at least more safe than outside villages.
In Israel, when you walk into a shopping mall or restaurant, security check you for bombs and weapons. That happens not because the Arabs want peace and Israel doesn’t. It happens because enough Arabs try to kill people in shopping malls and restaurants that it became more economical to check everyone for bombs and weapons than to risk death and destruction. In most countries, it is more economical to take the risk, because the risk is lower.
I know that Jews in Israel MUST do that because of their Arab neighbours.
Do you think many Arab countries require security checks in shopping malls because of the risk of a Jew smuggling in a bomb in an attempt to kill a dozen Arabs?
Do you think Israel enjoys spending money in its military that it could spend on other things? Do you think Israel would spend a single dime on terrorising Arabs in the occupied territories if the alternative were cheaper AND more sufficiently secure?
No, there is a right side and a wrong side. The right side are those who have to fear bombs in shopping malls. The wrong side are those who feel secure from the other side’s wrath when hiding behind children.
All religion and violence aside, shouldn’t the living conditions in Palestine be included in this discussion? The Israeli occupation has made it impossible for those living in Palestinian territories to live with dignity, freedom, and security. As an American I take these for granted. But without them, I can’t even imagine…
I definitely do not understand how anyone can commit an act of terrorism but I do understand that riot movements arise in response to oppression, lack of freedom, and injustice. We are comparing a large state like Israel to places where the press can’t even get in, and if they do manage, they are putting their lives at stake.
According to the UN, in Gaza alone, the poverty rate is at around 67% and a reported 51% of Palestinians cannot meet their daily food needs. The obstruction of mobility in the Palestinian territories by the IDF is not only enforced upon the civilians but the international aid workers and since elections the US has withdrawn its aid to the region. People have difficulties reaching jobs, schools, healthcare facilities, and places of worship b/c of the lack of freedom of movement. I’ve heard a number of stories about women who have had to give birth at Israeli security checkpoints.
The Apartheid wall divides their community into many pieces, uses up valuable land, and makes it impossible to maintain normal family, economic, and human relations. According to human rights organizations, Israeli bulldozers have demolished more than 12,000 Palestinian homes in the West Bank and Gaza, leaving tens of thousands of Palestinians without shelter. (and that was reported in 2005) I remember seeing one of the few documentaries on life in a neighborhood of Gaza and the children had to watch for Israeli bullets anytime they were walking through the streets and even their homes had bullet holes all over their walls and doors. It was heartbreaking.
I would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered. Israel can continue to use violence and occupation in response to violence but in my opinion, the root of what the western world considers terrorism (occupation and lack of freedom-think Iraq) will not be addressed and the level of violence will only increase.
I disagree with you on putting the terrorism in Iraq together with that of Palestine… The 2 are different and distinct. However I agree with you on the rest of what you say… It’s certainly one hell of a complex conflict.
Thanks for dropping by. Cheers
“All religion and violence aside, shouldn’t the living conditions in Palestine be included in this discussion?”
No.
Why should they? Their living conditions are not worse than the living conditions of any people who fight a war and lose. It’s not unique.
” would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation”
I would. Had Israel not reacted violently to the party of Satan’s attack on my university, I would have been hit, eventually. I will happily defend violence or absolutely anything Israel does to defend me against those who want to kill me.
“but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered.”
Yes, by the supporters of the terrorists. Terrorism has not made the situation any better.
“Israel can continue to use violence and occupation in response to violence”
And hopefully Israel will.
“but in my opinion, the root of what the western world considers terrorism (occupation and lack of freedom-think Iraq) will not be addressed and the level of violence will only increase.”
“considers” terrorism? It _IS_ terrorism. But it was not caused by “occupation”, because Arab attacks against Jews in Palestine started a long time before Jews controlled any part of Palestine. And the first war of Arab countries against Israel happened before Israel was a Jewish majority state. The local Arabs had the choice between defending the new country or helping the attackers kill the Jews. They have made their choice. A minority among them made a different choice. I have spoken to both types. The first still want to get rid of the Jews, the second want to live in peace. Guess who I have more sympathy with.
When Egypt and Jordan occupied the Arab part of Palestine, Arab terrorism was directed at Jews, not the occupiers.
And terrorism in Iraq has started when Iraq was more free rather than less. It is freedom that allows for terrorism, because in a truly restrictive state you cannot smuggle weapons and walk towards your victims.
So your argument that occupation and lack of freedom causes terrorism is, I am afraid, not only simply but also wrong.
Palestinian Arabs do not attack Jews because of the occupation, they attack Jews because they are still able to smuggle weapons and move freely.
The “apartheid wall” (which will keep the terrorists and the Jews apart) has already decreased the number of terror acts. I’m afraid that also contradicts your theory.
And I think maybe you should adapt.
Do you know of any examples for an occupation or lack of freedom causing an increase in terrorism rather than a decrease?
A wall is not that bad. I grew in a city surrounded by one. And we were not dangerous for the population of the country around us, only for their government.
Safro - amusingly, the Palestinians could be a very prosperous state. They enjoyed a tremendous economic growth during the brief period of Hudna.
And yet they chose to throw it away for a chance to kill some Joooz. I have seen it happen, in Jericho. It literally changed fom a prosperous, booming town based on tourism and service industries into a shithole within a week. Why? S’very simple. The most profitable place in Jericho was the Oasis Casino - pure profit of many millions of dollars every month. When Islamic Jihad terrorists started using its roof as a platform for snipers, the IDF (for some obscure reason) started firing at it. The casino closed down. Affluent shops and restaurants suddenly became terrorist firing positions. The streets filled with rubble. Within a WEEK. I used to love that place - a chill small town, lots of interesting historical places, excellent coffee, the right place to go if you’re looking to buy a garden statue. Can you blame the Evil Jooz for what has happened to it?
Every time Israel open a crossing, it’s used for terrorism. Ambulances used to cross freely… until IDF discovered they were used to transport terrorists, explosives and weapons. Various international aid organizations could cross freely… until IDF discovered they are more often than not a cover for terrorists, smuggling explosives, guns and terror experts. Pregnant women in private vehicles used to get a free pass, too… until it was discovered that some of these women are actually pregnant with explosives.
And Gaza… what a shithole. Israel tried to help them improve their lot. IDF withdrew completely from Gaza, leaving behind especially constructed high-tech greenhouses worth millions of dollars - built by Jews for Gazan Arabs. A gift, freely given. The greenhouses were destroyed within a couple of days. Within a month their remains used as cover for tunnels to smuggle terrorists into Israel. Fields and groves given freely to Gazan Arabs were used to hide terrorist training camps and to launch rockets at Israeli towns.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. You cannot expect a weapon to build things… and the Palestinians are a weapon.
And “apartheid” wall? It’s a wall on Israel’s borders, seperating Israel from a violent neighbor bent on the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jewish people. The pathetic newlings of anti-semites do not change the facts - it’s a very effective barrier, stopping 85+% of attempted terrorist infiltration into Israel. In practical numbers, it saves hundreds of Jewish lives every month, if not more (there are dozens of attempted infiltations every month).
Look up the definition of “apartheid”. Your usage is slanderous and libelous - and you are either naive, stupid or malicious for using it in this case. Naivete can be cured by learning, maliciousness sometimes can be cured by a miracle (i.e. Walid Shoebat). Stupidity, I am afraid, is only cured by death. I do hope you’re of the first kind.
And about your last shining example of spectacular rational thought, deep knowledge and brilliant analysis… there is a Hebrew saying applicable to this case, as usual:
“He who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful”.
Sounds better in Hebrew, I must admit - hamerakhem al akhzarim sofo lehitakhzer le rakhmanim.
And the root of terrorism is not occupation and lack of freedom. Just ask Osama Bin Laden.
Ye Gods, I am so tired of this crap. So let me sum it up:
Thank you for your contribution to the fall of Western Civilization (AKA “Civilization as we know it”). It is not much, but every bit counts. Enjoy your excruciating death by nuclear fire, courtesy of the 12th Imam. Or, if you’re lucky, enjoy your up-and-coming slavery under the Caliphate.
Oh, and Safro -
” would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation…”
So you fully support Chamberlein’s attitude towards Nazi Germany. Congrats. See my thank-you note above.
“…but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered.”
So you’re basically kind of supportive of Palestinian terrorism. Well done. Again, see the thank-you note above.
ufff. Chambelain. With an A. As in Arthur Neville.
Damn… you guys sure don’t get tired… I would love to join this and state some points in detail but I’m afraid I don’t have the time. I can’t wait to get done with these freaking exam papers… so much to say and post about. It will have to wait.
Good night… gotta go to the damn library first thing early morning. *yawn
The Raccoon has made a few good points there, although I do not agree with everything he said.
But be that as it may, the connection between terrorism is poverty is a shaky one.
The world’s most famous terrorist is a Saudi millionaire. And the word’s poorest die of hunger in sub-Saharan Africa and terrorise noone, they have neither the means nor the will (or an excuse).
If you want to look for connections between terrorism and X, try the following X (and I am not saying that the connection is true or meaningful, just that it’s stronger than “poverty” or “lack of freedom”):
X = Arabs
X = Muslims
X = Country with religious Muslim minority or majority
X = Arab country that is not a dictatorship
X = Anti-Semites
X = Anti-British and Anti-American
X = Communists
X = Anti-monarchist
But X = poor people or X = oppressed people doesn’t cut it. Most of the poor, especially the very poor, do not support or breed terrorism at all. They are just hungry. (Yet we give money to Palestinian Arabs instead!) And most of the oppressed cannot support terrorism because they are oppressed. (Communist eastern Europe did not have a huge terrorism problem.)
What do you think?
The Kurds keep Iraqi Kurdistan terror-free by keeping Arab Muslims out. They do not keep poor or oppressed people out, they screen for “Arab” and “Muslim”.
They don’t do it because they hate Arabs or Muslims, at least I hope not. They are doing it because “Arab” and “Muslim” correspond to “terror” more often than “poor” and “oppressed”.
In fact, the Kurds were the most oppressed people in Saddam’s Iraq, yet they are not among the terror groups now. Odd, that?
me: I would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation
Andrew: I would.
In my opinion, I agree with the saying “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” I’m sorry to hear that your university was in the line of fire but I see humanity on both sides of the conflict and I don’t think blind anger and retaliation is going to solve any conflict (without mass devastation anyway).
We just have different views of the world and that’s fine. After 9/11 many Americans in their anger supported immediate military retaliation as the solution. After the initial shock wore off, my reaction was to wonder what we have done and what we are doing to create such anti-American sentiment overseas and what could be done in the future to make such an attack less likely. Of course we ended up occupying Afghanistan and Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) and in doing so, from what I can tell, have only spread anti-americanism and terrorism.
Andrew: Terrorism has not made the situation any better.
You’re right. But that goes for both sides. And staying on this subject I said “what the western world refers to as terrorism” only because I think that any form of targeting civilians is a form of terrorism, which includes American and Israel attacks on civilian structures. I know that in our military operations it is our policy that if we are trying to kill an individual and they may or may not be in a building full of civilians, it is okay to drop a bomb on the building. I believe that is terrorism.
Andrew: And terrorism in Iraq has started when Iraq was more free rather than less. It is freedom that allows for terrorism, because in a truly restrictive state you cannot smuggle weapons and walk towards your victims.
Andrew: Do you know of any examples for an occupation or lack of freedom causing an increase in terrorism rather than a decrease?
Sorry this is going to get off topic but you think that Iraqis are more free now? What kind of freedom are you talking about? Iraqis can’t even walk outside without fearing explosions or gunfire. Men can’t wear shorts, women have to be completely covered from head to toe. Women aren’t allowed to drive a car. If anyone steps out of line slightly or moves too quickly they have to fear being shot by either American forces or the Iraqi security forces. They are subjected to random house raids of men with guns who may or may not be on the side of the occupiers. And this all occurred AFTER the occupation. (I read a lot of Iraqi blogs) Iraq may be less one dictator but he has been replaced by hundreds of thousands of occupiers. To me it looks like they have less freedom and a whoooole lot more terrorism.
“Look up the definition of “apartheid”.
I did…there are two different definitions and one is simply “separation.” I believe that is quite fitting. Hah and wow I really enjoyed your insults. Keep those coming! Just because I have a different perspective, it actually doesn’t make me stupid. Really.
Safro - yes, and a Nationalist Socialist-Democratic party is just a democratic party which happens to lean towards socialism and national unity. And Swastika is just a Hindu symbol, singifying the Sun or evolution/involution of the Universe (Brahma).
Memes are these little things which have a profound effect on what the words you say actually mean.
Strangely, I did not try to insult you (although, admittedly, I did not try not to insult you). As I said, I hope that you are not stupid but merely ill-informed, so to speak.
“A different perspective” can mean a lot of things, you know… David Duke has a “different perspective” from yours truly, for example.
Not that I am saying that your perspective is the same as Mr. Duke’s. It’s just that it contributes to the demise of the West and the end of civilization, for which I have thanked you (on the behalf of unborn generations which will never be born).
Yes, I am a bit sarcastic. But then again, I bet ol’ Winnie also was right after “peace in our time” declaration.
“But X = poor people or X = oppressed people doesn’t cut it. Most of the poor, especially the very poor, do not support or breed terrorism at all. They are just hungry. (Yet we give money to Palestinian Arabs instead!)”
The way you word this it sounds like you are saying Palestinian Arabs are all terrorists. You see an enemy as a whole. What you fail to see is that like any population of people there are the good and the bad. Yes there are many evil Palestinians who are the extremists who commit acts of terrorism. But there are also many Palestinians who are victims of both sides of this conflict and just want to live in peace. Here in the US we have plenty of domestic malevolence…the amount of gun violence is ridiculous and there are rapes, robberies, and murders all the time. Plenty of bad seeds and yet the majority of Americans like to live in peaceful ignorance! hah…
And I don’t quite think my way of thinking is going to lead to the demise of the western civilization as flattering as that may be (hah) and I don’t believe I am misinformed. Instead of representing my country by dropping bombs or firing at foreign targets, I prefer to join the Peace Corps…I support my country by helping the homeless many of which ironically are war veterans whose lives have been ruined. That is my contribution and at least it’s a contribution. (Come on, I’m sure you can find a way to belittle this!)
Perhaps it was a little “naive” to use “Apartheid” in reference to the wall and I will not be using it again. Quite a few human rights groups refer to the wall as the “Apartheid wall” and that’s why I referred to it as such.
“In my opinion, I agree with the saying “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” I’m sorry to hear that your university was in the line of fire but I see humanity on both sides of the conflict and I don’t think blind anger and retaliation is going to solve any conflict ”
Several points:
1. There was no “eye for an eye”. The Israelis fought to STOP the attacks.
2. My unversity was not “in the line of fire”, the Satanists TARGETED it because there were Jewish students in it. I am sorry that Jewish students are a target. I don’t buy the “in the line of fire” nonsense. You make it sound as if the Satanists tried to shoot at something and we just happened to be in the way. No, my friend, we were the target because of what we were.
3. I do not see humanity on both sides. I do not see the humanity in those people who throw rockets filled with metal parts into civilian areas for the sole purpose of killing as many Israelis as possible. I do see the humanity in those who are killed for being Jewish and I do see the humanity in those who shoot back to stop the rocket throwers, even when they are hiding among civilians. I do not agree that there is “humanity” in the attackers.
4. I did not claim that “blind anger” has anything to do with the Israeli reaction.
5. Retaliation is not going to solve the conflict. That is true. UNFORTUNATELY, and that is OUR problem, not doing anything WILL. Because at some point, if we do not defend ourselves, we will all be dead. That would solve the conflict. But that isn’t my goal. I do not want to solve the conflict. I want to survive. If solving the conflict helps me survive, I will try to solve the conflict. If keeping the conflict going helps me survive, I will try to keep the conflict going. If defending myself is retaliation and keeps the conflict going, I will defend myself (or let others do it for me). Ending the conflict is not the point, survival is. Ending the conflict is easy and can be done without a single shot fired from Israel’s side. But the price is too high for me.
“We just have different views of the world and that’s fine. After 9/11 many Americans in their anger supported immediate military retaliation as the solution”
So we should have waited for the Satanists to kill us all instead of shooting back? Is that your plan? Is that your alternative?
“I think that any form of targeting civilians is a form of terrorism, which includes American and Israel attacks on civilian structures.”
America and Israel do not attack civilian structures, unless the terrorists hide in them. That doesn’t make America and Israel terrorists. It makes the terrorists war criminals (because it is forbidden to hide among civilians).
Do you actually expect Israel to ignore terrorists if they are hiding among women and children? Should Israelis die for that principle of yours? I do not want to die just because other people think it’s wrong to shoot at terrorists who hide among civilians. The civilians who allow the terrorists to hide thus are NOT WORTH IT. My life is to me, and to Israel, worth more than the lives of the terrorists’ supporters. And I think that that is good!
“but you think that Iraqis are more free now?”
Yes. And if you read a lot of Iraqi blogs you might have read about the situation before the invasion. If you think the Iraqis were more free then, you have missed an awful lot of history. Ask a Kurd?
“The way you word this it sounds like you are saying Palestinian Arabs are all terrorists”
No, but they do support and breed terrorism. They voted for Hamas. I can blame them for that. If the world has to choose between supporting them and some hungry Africans, why not support the Africans? What’s so special about Arabs? I don’t get it.
“Perhaps it was a little “naive” to use “Apartheid” in reference to the wall and I will not be using it again. Quite a few human rights groups refer to the wall as the “Apartheid wall” and that’s why I referred to it as such.”
Once organisations that refer to a wall that protects Jews from those who want to exterminate them as an “apartheid wall” are not called “human rights groups” any more we’ll have peace.
Terror attacks went down since the wall was constructed. Why exactly is that not a human rights success? Are Jews (and Israeli Druze and Arabs) not also human and have rights? What about the right not to be attacked by members and supporters of a group that wants to exterminate your nation? Why are human rights groups not worried about the violation of that right?
A _real_ human rights group would see how the wall saves innocent people and would realise that that is, in fact, a protection of human rights on a greater scale than they themselves are capable of.
Safro -
In no particular order:
I can find a way to belittle your aid to the homeless… but I won’t. It’s actually commendable.
But it does not negate your other contribution to society.
Without the USA dropping bombs on foreign targets, I would not have been born; one of my grandmothers would have died in a concentration camp, and both my grandfathers and another grandmother would have died fighting the Nazis. So I am kind of thankful to the USA for dropping bombs on foreign targets.
The problem with giving aid to Palestinians is multi-faceted. Palestinians as a nation are a weapon. No two ways about it - s’just what they are, and not of their own volition. But then again, they don’t seem to mind. Another problem is that the aid is given to the leaders of the “Palestinians” - that is, to a specific faction or clan. Since they hate each other almost as much as they hate the Jooz, they don’t really share. Israel gave the Palestinians billions of dollars worth of aid… and then invested billions more making sure it actually gets to the people who need it. If you want, I can tell you lots of humorous and sad stories about Palestinian clans fighting over a water pipe provided by Israel, trying to make sure their clan is the only one getting the water (rather than everyone in their area, as intended by Israel). Or just ask Suha Arafat where she got her exorbitant amounts of dollars from.
And what happens to the aid when it gets into the hands of a clan/faction? That of it which is not stolen is used to fund terrorism. The commoners don’t see a dime of it… and since they don’t do anything to change the situation and cheer when they see their aid dollars used to kill Jooz, one can but presume that they’re happy with the way things are.
Again, Palestinians do not need financial aid. They need an army of psychologists to help them get over their anger management problem, narcissism, paranoia and hatred… and start actually doing something with the incredible potential inherent in their location. Actually, they can start by simply not ruining everything they have and anything anyone gives them.
Oh, and many “human rights groups” are fronts for terrorist organization, defenders of terrorists or funders of terrorists. Lovely people. I am sure their definitions are spot on.
And there are people who are not indoctrinated in hatred, who do not exist as a nation solely to destroy another nation, and who genuinely have nothing and need aid (rather than to stop acting like children in a tantrum).
Palestinians sure like to present themselves as victims. But freedom ain’t free, and they are victims only of themselves.
Safro,
Did you refer to the groups in question as “human rights groups” because YOU saw them do something for human rights or because THEY called themselves “human rights groups”.
To be quite honest, I’d have more trust in your assessment than in theirs!
No, I was not very familiar with any of these human rights groups so it was their own assessment. But honestly try searching the internet for “apartheid wall” and you will get a ton of results! Although I do admit I was being biased when I referred to the wall like that-how do you like “separation wall?” While I was searching, I found this article on an Israeli news site (Haaretz) and I would like to quote it here:
“For the Israelis it is a “separation fence,” for the Palestinians - an “apartheid wall.” For the Israelis it is an ideal, for the Palestinians an existential threat. For most Israelis it is a magic solution to the dread of terrorism. For the Palestinians it is a profound fear. Once again, they don’t understand one another, two nations who don’t grasp the meaning of each other’s anxieties.
A separation fence, a protective wall, security, war against terror - but the Israelis have no idea of the cost to the Palestinians. After the settlements, the outposts, the bypass roads, the confiscations, the closure, the encirclement, the unemployment and the curfew, now this problem has fallen upon the heads of thousands of residents who live in the area of the fence, who once again find themselves victims through no fault of their own. Farmers whose fields have been expropriated, vintners whose vineyards have been trampled, shepherds whose pastures have been lost, farmers whose plots and wells have remained on the other side of the fence, unemployed men whose last source of livelihood has also been destroyed now, and villages that have been cut off from their sources of life.”
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=288845&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
““For the Israelis it is a “separation fence,” for the Palestinians - an “apartheid wall.” For the Israelis it is an ideal, for the Palestinians an existential threat. For most Israelis it is a magic solution to the dread of terrorism. For the Palestinians it is a profound fear. Once again, they don’t understand one another, two nations who don’t grasp the meaning of each other’s anxieties.”
I don’t mind calling it an apartheid wall. There is no inherent problem with “apartheid”, only with apartheid based on race or nationality or some such criteria. THIS apartheid wall is supposed to keep a hostile population away from its victims. And that is NOT the same as keeping blacks away from whites or vice versa. (Unless one argues that blacks are inherently dangerous, like Hamas.)
I am pretty sure the Israeli grasp the problems the wall creates for Palestinian Arabs. The Israelis just don’t care, because they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).
And I am also pretty sure that the Palestinian Arabs understand the wall. The terrorists certainly do, as they run into it.
The Palestinian Arabs are of course free to stop their fellow country men from attacking Israel. They have always had that option. They still do. But that option is never even discussed when the wall is being argued against, is it?
My issue was with the idea that groups that have a problem with Jews defending their lives are “human rights groups”. I have a problem with the idea that it is a “human right” to attack Jews. And I have a problem with the idea that that “human right” is worth more than my right to live.
The Palestinian Arabs should have thought of the problems a wall would bring BEFORE they made it necessary for Israel to build one. And you cannot tell me that the Intifadas did not enjoy popular support.
You can have your war and lose it. Or you can decide not to fight. But Israel will probably not allow them to win their war or to try again and again without losing anything.
“No, I was not very familiar with any of these human rights groups so it was their own assessment.”
If you are not familiar with them, you should degrade them to “groups”.
Why are you adding your credentials to their claim when you don’t know what their claim is based on?
Several white supremacist (my estimate) groups in America refer to themselves as “civil rights groups”. But you won’t see me repeat their claim unless I have actually seen them fight for sombody’s civil rights.
“So we should have waited for the Satanists to kill us all instead of shooting back? Is that your plan? Is that your alternative?” (in response to my 9/11 comment)
-I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous statement. I mean Israel and the US are two of the world’s superpowers…my country has the best intelligence and defense systems of any other country. Do you know how long the planning of 9/11 must have taken and how extensively it would have needed to be planned out? We’re talking years and years here! And even after that, I’m still amazed that they were somehow able to pull it off-i mean our government even recieved a notice that an attack was going to happen. hmm! We’re talking about two of the strongest countries in the world here and comparing them to, by comparison, a small (but growing) group of extremists. Perhaps the propaganda got to you. Do you still believe Iraq has WMD?
“America and Israel do not attack civilian structures, unless the terrorists hide in them. That doesn’t make America and Israel terrorists. It makes the terrorists war criminals (because it is forbidden to hide among civilians).”
I remember hearing one story of how a suspected terrorist was “rumored” to be dining at a restaurant in Iraq filled with civilians who obviously had no idea that this person was a terrorist. We bombed the entire building. If this sort of thing happened in Israel, you wouldn’t be angry?
This point may be hard for us to argue because I recognize the fact that I have been more lucky than I even know by being born in the US…but that definitely doesn’t make my life worth more than someone born in say Africa or the Middle East. They have family and friends as well. Why don’t we even count the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed since the occupation? Why didn’t we sign the treaty banning antipersonnel landmines-Horrific stories and pictures from all around the world (mostly the third world) show that it is mainly civilians who are the landmine casualties. Since there isn’t a landmine problem in the US, it isn’t our problem? Most importantly why is our policy when capturing “terrorists” overseas different than when they are captured in our own country? I can assure you that killing a buildingfull of people in the effort to kill one individual would not happen here but it is our policy overseas.
“-I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous statement [about shooting back]. I mean Israel and the US are two of the world’s superpowers”
Trust me, it seems less ridiculous when you are being transferred to Jerusalem because your university is under fire. Without shooting back, they wouldn’t have stopped.
And Israel is no super-power. The Arab alliances that attacked it so often might be more qualified.
“Do you still believe Iraq has WMD?”
Do you still believe that somebody proved that Iraq did not?
“I have been more lucky than I even know by being born in the US…but that definitely doesn’t make my life worth more than someone born in say Africa or the Middle East. They have family and friends as well.”
So if your life is not worth more than someone born in Africa, why is an Arab life worth more than a Jewish life?
Why exactly should Jews not defend themselves? Why is ending the conflict more important than Jewish lives? Why do the Jews have to end the conflict and not the terrorists?
“Why don’t we even count the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed since the occupation?”
We do count them. But we also counted Saddam’s victims. The terrorists now murder fewer people than he did. But I can hardly blame the US for any of Saddam’s or the terrorists’ crimes.
Are you seeing a Sunni attack on a Shia mosque (or Hussainiya, I believe they call them), an act of war between the US and Iraq?
Are you seeing a conflict between Iraq and the US, even though US troops are in Iraq per the request of the elected Iraqi government?
Do you believe the terrorists are fighting for Iraq against the US even though the majority of Iraqis voted for a government that doesn’t want the terrorists but does want US help?
What’s the point you are trying to make?
“Perhaps the propaganda got to you. ”
No, it was the rockets. There is very little “propaganda” that tells me that these people want to kill me. Instead most newspapers didn’t even report about Hizbullah’s attacks on Israel until Israel fired back!
“The Palestinian Arabs are of course free to stop their fellow country men from attacking Israel. They have always had that option. They still do. But that option is never even discussed when the wall is being argued against, is it?”
-How? Please tell me. Then perhaps I can pass it on to the Palestinians.
“My issue was with the idea that groups that have a problem with Jews defending their lives are “human rights groups”. I have a problem with the idea that it is a “human right” to attack Jews. And I have a problem with the idea that that “human right” is worth more than my right to live.”
Back up here…whoever said it is a human right to attack Jews? I’m saying it’s illegal to kill innocent civilians no matter what the race, ethnicity, religion….i don’t ’see the connection? and i’ve never seen a human rights group support the killing of anyone. The human rights groups I know are composed of nonviolent and tolerant activists. I am involved with a few over in the US. Have you ever interacted with these civil rights groups you speak so knowingly about? And white supremacists? The only white supremacists I see are in charge of our government policies and are people who believe such things as this:
“they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).”
I can just call this group self-supremacists.
“So if your life is not worth more than someone born in Africa, why is an Arab life worth more than a Jewish life?”
Are you kidding me? Why do you not understand me at all? My best friend (and roommate) is Jewish. I have quite a few Jewish friends. I live in the US. We’re a diverse crowd here. I have friends of all different races and religions and my point is that we’re all friends and the differences between us is what makes our country so unique. I recently met an Israeli man and an Arab who were good friends. I loved it. Don’t push your racism onto me. Please.
“We do count them. But we also counted Saddam’s victims. The terrorists now murder fewer people than he did. But I can hardly blame the US for any of Saddam’s or the terrorists’ crimes.”
You might find this interesting:
July, 1991 The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80’s using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians.
August, 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta’s branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but US officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime.
June, 1992. Ted Kopple of ABC Nightline reports: “It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980’s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam’s Iraq into [an aggressive power].”
July, 1992. “The Bush administration deliberately, not inadvertently, helped to arm Iraq by allowing U.S. technology to be shipped to Iraqi military and to Iraqi defense factories… Throughout the course of the Bush administration, U.S. and foreign firms were granted export licenses to ship U.S. technology directly to Iraqi weapons facilities despite ample evidence showing that these factories were producing weapons.” Representative Henry Gonzalez, Texas, testimony before the House.
February, 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large US shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against US troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome.
August, 2002. “The use of gas [during the Iran-Iraq war] on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern… We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose”. Colonel Walter Lang, former senior US Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times.
“How? Please tell me. Then perhaps I can pass it on to the Palestinians.”
If they find it difficult to figure out how not to attack Israel, then I cannot explain it to them, perhaps.
“Back up here…whoever said it is a human right to attack Jews?”
The “human rights groups” that seem to criticise the wall as a violation of human rights without taking into account the human rights of those whose rights the wall effectively protects.
Apparently the Arabs’ human right to move freely and attack Jews is worth more than the Jews’ (and other Israelis’) right not to be attacked.
“I’m saying it’s illegal to kill innocent civilians no matter what the race, ethnicity, religion….i don’t ’see the connection? and i’ve never seen a human rights group support the killing of anyone.”
Well, Israelis have. They routinely discover “human rights groups” smuggling weapons for terrorist groups.
“The human rights groups I know are composed of nonviolent and
tolerant activists.”
Didn’t you say that you didn’t know much about the groups in question?
“I am involved with a few over in the US. Have you ever interacted with these civil rights groups you speak so knowingly about?”
No, but if I had been close to Gaza I might have been hit by one of the rockets they helped smuggling into the gaza strip. Does that count as “interaction”?
“And white supremacists? The only white supremacists I see are in charge of our government policies and are people who believe such things as this: “they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).””
Then perhaps you are looking for traits and find them where you want them to be? White supremacists tend to believe that the “white race” is superior to other races (including the Jews, incidentally). You will find many of them in the US, but they usually hate who is in charge of your government these days. You won’t find much love for George Bush among Klansmen, for example.
“I can just call this group self-supremacists.”
Call us what you will. I still believe that my life is worth more than Hizbullah’s ability to kill me and the lives of those who want to kill me.
If you consider your life to be as valuable as the life of somebody who wants to kill you, feel free to try to redirect Hizbullah’s wrath towards you. I don’t need it.
I don’t think that non-Israelis who try to stop somebody from killing them would be referred to as “self-supremacists” by you. Did you ever refer to anybody else shooting back as such?
When one tribe attacks another in the Congo, the second tribe shoots back, are they self-supremacists, or does that only apply to Israelis shooting back at Hizbullah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Sales_to_Iraq
As I said, I do not blame the US for Russian, Chinese, and French arms deals with Iraq.
Regards,
the self-supremacists who believes his life is worth more to himself than the life of those who want to see him dead (”proud self-supremacist”?).
“Are you kidding me? Why do you not understand me at all? My best friend (and roommate) is Jewish.”
Why do I not understand you? Perhaps because you keep telling me that shooting back is wrong (not realising, perhaps, that if Israel had not shot back, I might have died)?
Perhaps because you call me a “self-supremacist” and put me on the same level as white supremacists for considering my own life more valuable than the lives of those who want to kill me?
Perhaps because you call a group that believes that a hostile group’s freedom of movement is worth more than Jewish lives a “human rights group”?
Perhaps because you don’t know that many “human rights groups” have in the past smuggled weapons for terrorists, yet you believe you KNOW that they do not support the killing of innocent civilians (how do you know that?)?
My fear of death is not racism, you know. And if anybody else had thrown a rocket at me in any other country, I doubt you would even have thought such a thing even if somebody had stopped the attack violently.
Your best friend’s ethnicity or religion has nothing to do with this. This has to do with me having been a student at a university that was under fire not in spite of it being no military target but because it was a civilian structure with many young students. This has to do with Hizbullah and Hamas trying to kill as many Jews as possible and the idea that defending against them is somehow wrong, because their human shields might be killed.
My flatmates are a Hindu and a Christian. But that doesn’t mean anything. Why would it?
“Don’t push your racism onto me. ”
Very well. Whatever you consider racism…
I tell you what. “Racism” is what makes Hizbullah want to kill me. My wanting to see these terrorists dead when they try is NOT racism.
“Racism” is what makes you believe that the ethnicity or religion of your best friend is of any importance.
“Racism” is what triggers the idea that my will to survive at the expense of those who try to murder me is “self-supremacism”.
“Racism” is what makes people believe that a people who want to attack their neighbour deserve foreign aid that could be given to poor and harmless people instead.
“Racism” is what makes the UN discuss 9 civilian victims of Israel’s military whereas civilian Israeli victims of Arab terror are never an issue in the UN. (Or was there a special session about the victims of a terror attack ever?)
“Racism” is what allows Arab countries to attack Israel again and again, with the stated goal of destroying the fellow UN member.
That is what racism is. Have you ever seen it?
Had Hizbullah not attacked Israel, no Lebanese would have died at Israel’s hands.
Had Israel not reacted to Hizbullah’s attack, more Israelis would have died at Hizbullah’s hands.
If it was wrong to shoot back, it follows that the deaths of the Israelis are somehow more acceptable than the deaths of the Lebanese.
In that case I am wondering to whom they are more acceptable. Not to me, obviously. But is it racist that I don’t want to die?
Israellycool (www.israellycool.com) reports that:
“An Israeli woman has been killed, and an Israeli man has lost his legs, after palestinian terrorists fired Kassams at civilians in Sderot. The international community is in uproar, and a special UN Security Council resolution condemning the terrorist’s targeting of innocent civilians has been drafted. ”
The second sentence is striked-out, because it didn’t happen.
Safro, can you explain, in reasonable detail, why there has been international uproar and a special resolution about Israel accidentally killing Arab civilians, while there is none about this? Note that this was NOT an accident. The terrorist WANTED it to happen. It was his goal.
Was the woman a self-supremacist?
Safro -
Ye Gods… just listen to yourself. Israel, a nation with 6.5 million population living on a piece of land (80% of which is mountains and deserts) smaller than New Jersey, with no natural resources and almost no water, with a per-capita GDP ranking 32nd in the world and an absolute military strength (GFP rank) 26th in the world… is a super-power? On par with the USA?
You should stop believing the Protocols.
Oh, and WMDs were found (stocks of chemical weapons, with evidence of much more that were apparently smuggled to Syria). That is even if we ignore the fact (published even by the MSM) that Saddam was months away from a nuclear bomb. Perhaps the propaganda got to you…
And perhaps do some research rather than basing your statements on rumor and wild presumptions? If you want, I can E-mail you an English translation of the Al-Qaeda strategic plan (”The Management of Savagery: The Most Critical Stage Through Which The Umma Will Pass, by Abu Bakr Naji). It’s 268 pages long, but well worth the effort of reading it. It’s a good place to start.
How can the Palestinians stop their fellow countrymen from attacking Israel:
Well, they can start by not hiding, feeding, clothing and funding terrorists. They can also stop believing their Imams, their government hate propaganda. They can stop cheering every time a Jew is killed or wounded. They can stop lynching people - torturing them to death on the streets (fun for the whole family!) - for the crime of being suspect of not hating Israel. They can vote for a party with a platform not based on the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews. They can stop rioting, stop sending their children to throw rocks and molotov coctails on Jews. They can stop calling murderers “heroes” and “martyrs”.
It’s easy if they try.
According to the UN and Amnesty International (just off the top of my head) it’s a human right to kill Jews. Have a look at their statements and compare them to facts.
Yeah, I have seen your “nonviolent tolerant activists”… seen them brandishing guns, seen them willingly serving as human shields for terrorists, seen them attacking IDF soldiers, seen them smuggling explosives and weapons to terrorists. Lovely, peaceful people… when they’re sleeping.
You see white supremacists deciding USA policy? Condi Rice is a white supremacist, then? Is your brain actually processing the stuff coming out of you?
Lemme try a little moral dilemma on you:
A random guy with a gun aims it at your best friend. He has told you that he will kill you friend and then you. He has killed random people before - you’ve seen him do it. You have the option of blowing his brains out with the press of a button. What do you do?
“but you think that Iraqis are mo