Do I need to point out which one? The massacre is all over the news right now. The UN Security Council as usual will most probably do nothing and Hamas will continue firing rockets into Israel. The deadly deadlock continues. Meanwhile Israel is “sorry”. I’m sorry too… sorry for the families of the poor innocent victims and children who had to die in their sleep… sorry that this sick conflict still continues and won’t seem to stop for a long time to come… sorry that the word “sorry” doesn’t change anything.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 168 comments… read them below or add one }
Did anybody already propose that the “Palestinians” should stop firing rockets into Israel in order to get rid of the problem of Israel shooting back?
The Jews will NEVER stop firing back. History taught them that.
It’s up to the “Palestinians” to look after their own.
These things shouldn’t happen!
The sick conflict will continue until the “Palestinians” decide to end it.
It’s up to them.
If Israel stops firing, the “Palestinians” will kill all the Jews.
If the “Palestinians” stop firing, the war will be over.
I hope you’re right Andrew and I sure do wish it was that simple. Blind hate has taken the Arab world beyong the point of no return… at least for now.
I really don’t understand these people.
Hamas TOLD them what their plans were. They VOTED for Hamas. Hamas DID start the war they claimed they would start.
And now they get what a war ALWAYS gets people. And they scream bloody murder.
What’s the point?
Do the “Palestinians” want war or not?
If they don’t want war, they should say so and stop it.
If they do want war, they will have to get used to losing people.
It’s not only the Arab world. I have met people in the west who see themselves as “neutral” in the conflict and propose the deportation of millions of Jews to solve the problem. (The same people consider deportation of millions of Arabs to be a genocidal crime.)
But what really ticks me of are those people who believe they are “supporters of Palestine” and then believe that Israel’s position (two-state solution, peace) is the PLO’s. They are the worst anti-Semites, because they KNOW that a two-state proposal exists and that it could be a solution, and they naturally assume that it cannot be the Jews who support it, so it must be the Arabs.
Neither of the two groups described above see themselves as anything but the most tolerant of people.
At least the Arab hatred is more open!
I just saw a picture of a the dead bodies of a girl and her younger sister on top of the body of their mother in a single morgue drawer. Morgues can’t even contain all the incoming bodies and funeral processions are nonstop.
Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.”
“I just saw a picture of a the dead bodies of a girl and her younger sister on top of the body of their mother in a single morgue drawer. Morgues can’t even contain all the incoming bodies and funeral processions are nonstop.”
Yes, it’s a mystery for me why the “Palestinians” want this to continue or why they target civilians all the time and then complain when Israel hits their people in return.
Why don’t they stop firing rockets?
“Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.” ”
And here we see the difference between the two. The “Palestinians” would only stop attacks when no Jews are left.
Stop trying to kill Jews and none of this will ever happen again!
Damn it. It’s not difficult.
The Jews are not taking it like they used to. Deal with it. These poor people already have. Don’t let it happen any more!
Damn it. It really isn’t difficult.
“Another massacre…and another Israeli statement: “We have stopped attacks until further investigations to look into what happened.” ”
I can tell you what happened. Some stupid terrorists tried to kill Jews and set up their rocket launcher too close to some more valuable Arabs, probably to draw Israeli fire on them.
And Israel, like the evil bloodsuckers they are, shot back at the terrorists and accidentally hit the civilians.
It’s not difficult.
It’s a Pavlov thing: shoot at an Israeli and he will shoot back. What’s so surprising about that?
Andrew, deeeeeeeeeep breath mate. It was indeed a regretable mistake…
Breath in, breath out… Yup, you got it.
One more time.
deeeeeeeeeep breath mate…
Drime, you are right.
But I am sick and tried of these animals TRYING to kill Israelis just for the sake of killing them and then complaining when the same thing happens to their own population when Israel shoots back.
And the world sympathizes with the victims (and it should) but never tells the “Palestinians” to f*ck and STOP the stupid war that hurts them so badly.
If Israel stops the war, Israel will die.
If the “Palestinians” stop the war, nobody will die.
It is that simple! It’s not a deadlock at all.
Andrew - from the POV of most of the world, we belong in Treblinka and Auschwitz, not Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Nothing has changed in the attitude towards Jews in the West in the past, oh, 500 years. A time will come and the dumb kikes will get it - whether they’re the Court Jews of the Americans (you know this lovely tradition?) or the pathetic, cowering untermensch of Europe.
And in the meanwhile - Palestinians cannot stop the war. They are a weapon… and it’s not up to a weapon to stop doing anything.
PS
Apparently, the reason for this unfortunate mistake was a malfunctioning targeting system of a cannon. The shell landed 500 meters off mark… now what kind of a sick terrorist fuck fires at people 500 meters from a densely populated area? Oh, wait… it’s the same kind of a terrorist fuck that fires at people from the middle of a crowd of children, the same kind of a terrorist fuck that calls for women to hide him with their bodies, the same kind of a terrorist fuck that takes hold one of the holiest churches of Christianity, holds the priests hostage and desecrates the altar.
I said it before and I will say it again - the only solution is for Israel to be a fortress-state populated by warrior-scientists. We’re halfway there… not nearly enough.
Oh, another possibility for this particular disaster - it is not impossible that a shell has hit a Quassam cache, causing it to explode. The investigation is only a day old, but we’ll probably have a definite answer by the beginning of the next week.
“The investigation is only a day old, but we’ll probably have a definite answer by the beginning of the next week. ”
Yes, we will. In a few days.
But that doesn’t matter. The rest of the world already have their answer. The Jews killed innocent people.
The rest of the world also KNEW that an Israeli shell had hit the beach of Gaza. They somehow KNEW that it wasn’t a Hamas mine, but that it must have been an Israeli shell. They knew immediately.
There will be peace once the world cannot see the difference between Jews and other people any more, once the world sees an incident and doesn’t KNOW that it was the Jews’ fault.
We have seen the problem even here with Drima. He reads about Uranium shells being used by Israel and immediately KNEW that a) they are very very dangerous (they are not) and b) there is no doubt that Israel used them (Israel did not, apparently). And he is not easily fooled. But it still seemed to him a given that the article was right.
It’s terrible.
What can we do? Should Jews assemble under the Star of David flag and fight back. Israel does.
But let’s ask the enemy, or rather the religion the enemy claims to represent. What does the Quran say Jews should do?
“O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.”
Done.
“Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.”
Mingled crowd. Done for the most part. Some Jews are still not in Israel. What is it with all the religions predicting that all Jews being in their home land again being so d*mn important?
Was Muhammed a Zionist?
Andrew - it’s not just Muslims. For Muslims, we’re dhimmis (and the sons of pigs and apes). For Christians and post-Christians, we’re untermensch (and a kind of a pest - rats, for preferense. Oh, and we killed Jesus).
It’s not about religion. It’s about ancient anti-semitism of Europeans and the equally ancient anti-semitism of the Arabs (although in their case it appears to be religion-induced and mixed with a healthy dose of European anti-semitism).
And the Quran is self-contradictory in the extreme, as you know. You could theoretically infer from it that Muslims should respect and help Jews, especially when it comes to Jews living in Israel. Or you could infer that Jews are to be hated and killed wherever we are.
Humans are not driven by logic, or reason, or kindness. They are driven by stupidity and malice.
“And the Quran is self-contradictory in the extreme, as you know. You could theoretically infer from it that Muslims should respect and help Jews, especially when it comes to Jews living in Israel.”
I have read the Quran and I have read interpretations.
It seems to me that the Quran has generally two types of text and two levels of detail.
Some of the Quran is what Muhammed claimed were G-d’s words. Some of the Quran is very clearly what Muhammed himself said, with G-d in agreement, presumably.
And some of the Quran is about the very time Muhammed made it all up (or received it from an angel, it doesn’t matter). And some of the Quran is about eternity. Some rules were for the moment, some were forever.
You will find that negative statements about Jews were not G-d’s law but Muhammed’s own opinion and about a current war against other Arab cities, some of them very Jewish, and not about eternity.
The Quran’s position regarding Israel is very clear: It is Jewish land and Jews will mingle there. There will be two exiles and not a third.
Muhammed knew about the first exile and he lived during the time of the second. What he didn’t know was that the second exile would go on for another 1300 years. From his point of view, the second exile was about 400 years long already and was about to end (as he received word from G-d, so he believed, to drive the Romans/Greeks out of the holy land).
Muslims today forget their roots. Very few of them still believe Muhammed’s words, very few of them are willing to fight or die for Muhammed’s words. But all too many are willing to fight or die for whatever kills the most Jews.
Muhammed had to deal with such people. But I bet he thought that he would be the last person who had to.
You know guys, I wholeheartedly wish for the day when this whole thing can be over with…
Raccoon and Andrew, believe it or not, one of the main reasons I support the Jews to have their right for a home and Jewish Jerusalem is due to my understanding of Islam. It’s the religious right of the Jews and even Islam says so… The problem is that the exercising of this right has become a very violent one thanks to people like Hamas and Ahamdinejad who want Israel wiped off the map.
It always seems like the media is just sitting down and waiting for Israel to screw up… Kinda like JihadWatch but in this case it’s IsraelWatch… Bam mistake and it’s all over the news… That’s why this latest incident is another accomplishment… The MSM is going on and on about it.
At least people like this guy give me hope…. And no he has no ties to terror… Innocent until proven guilty… I like the guy and I think he can make a positive change… even if it’s a small one…
Anyways, I know you guys must be frustrated… I am too… Huge positive differences are hard to make but you guys should know you made a big difference on the outlook and perspective of this Drima right here…
DRIMA
AS LONG AS THERE IS PEOPLE WHO BELIEVES PALESTINEANS ARE ANIMALS (JUST LIKE MR ANDREW) PEACE WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE .
I DO NOT SEE THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN SUICIDE BOMING AND THE BOMBING IN CIVILIAN AREAS .
Salma, no need to use capital letters and get all angry… Relax a little… You’re right. Andrew, was very wrong to call Palestinians animals… very very wrong but I doubt he meant what he said. He’s clearly in a very bad mood today since he has never cursed on my comments section previously. Right Andrew?
“I DO NOT SEE THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN SUICIDE BOMING AND THE BOMBING IN CIVILIAN AREAS .”
It depends. If Israelis are bombing civilians on purpose then they are no different from Osama Bin Laden but I honestly don’t think they’re doing such things on purpose… Bombing innocents on purpose does Israel no good at all… It only harms Israel and worsens its image worldwide further… Incidents like this recent one are accidents that should not happen.
Suicide bombings on Israeli civilians in buses or restaurants are wrong. They target innocent civilians on purpose. However suicide bombings on military targets and soldiers are completely justified… There’s nothing wrong with them except for the act of suicide itself but in this case Palestinians have no choice but to use such methods since they have no fighter planes or tanks.
Salma, there will be peace when groups like Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist and when Israel withdraws from all of the 1967 borders and ends its unjust and illegal occupation of Palestinian land. East Jerusalem for Palestine and Jewish Jerusalem to Israel. Groups like Hamas are an obstacle and regretable Israeli mistakes like the most recent just fuel anger further.
Yalla ya Salma… salamu alaikum.
Hi all,
I just wanted to share the result of a long discussion I had with a palestinian that year, because it helped me a lot to understand some part of the “deadlock” as you called it, Drima.
When we started the discussion, I was convinced, that his life there is really miserable and that I would never be able to stand it. Yet, when he said, that they would live in the biggest concentration camp ever, I jumped. (I am German, having grown up with the history of the holocaust - if anything is a taboo here, then this is it, and with the best reason!!). I got angry, because I somehow had the feeling, that he used this expression as a weird way of “PR”, to get more attention for his situation. Only our respect for each other made it possible to keep up the dialogue. (For both of us it was very hard, and I have stopped talking to people before because of that).
It took me a long while and a lot of effort to realize, that he really is convinced, that the Israelis are out there to kill and destroy the palestinians.
Now, I won’t go into this discussion here, but when I see the comment of The Raccoon (and also Andrew Brehm) above, I have the feeling that there are people on both sides, who are sure, that the other simply IS going to destroy you. (Whether this is plausible or not is probably more a question of the point of view).
This does not help to change anything. I know. But it helped me to understand drastic reactions of both sides better.
A from Berlin, bingo!! And that’s why this conflict is so screwed up… The deadlock will remain as long as there are those on the extremes of both side who believe the other is out to kill them…
I know Palestinians who believe that and ones who don’t… ones who hate Israelis and Jews passionately and ones who have Israeli friends back home and speak Hebrew.
And guys, the world is not full of antisemites. Sure, you can find them anywhere (btw did you watch Borat? Check video.google.com … He makes fun on stupid stereotypes), but in most places, they are a minority
.
One problem in mass-media times is that the public’s sympathy is very often with the weak and /or the poor. Now in this conflict, you see only the poor Palestinian civilians hit, their mother’s crying, and on the other side the highly equipped Israelian army. The powerful one is always being more criticized.
I agree totally with you that Jews were persecuted throughout their history and have suffered horrific crimes. However, the Arab world does not see Israel as a victim. They only do see the displacing of Arabs during the foundation of Israel. They feel humiliated by the overwhelming power. And they love the permanent victims’ status. Too often, they tend to forget that before the second Intifada, they had about the highest standard of living throughout the Arab world and therefore were not populer in ‘their culture’. Also, antisemitism is used by a number of Arab leaders to keep the focus away from ther failing gouvernments.
Besides that, Israel (the gouvernment) should be more aware on PR. The Lebanese war was just a disaster. Most people I talked to did not even know (or they already ‘forgot’) that Hesb’allah started the war.
One last thing: I hate this stupid showing of images of civilians bodies. IMO a war has never been fought with such care on civilians. Sorry to say that, but 1000 ppl killed in 3 weeks is nothing, even if they were all civilians. Any loss of life is horrible and has to be avoided. Bus as mankind is too stupid to get things done without war, you have to play it on the rules. Most Arabs did not realize that the past war was fought with ‘brakes on’, which might be one reason why Hezb’allah did not totally lose the war. If you engage a war, no matter about whether it is fought the regular or the guerilla way, don’t whine about casualties.
They belong to the war as a wheel to a car (sry stupid symbol). War is pure chaos, and chaos cannot be contained. Don’t unleash powers you cannot control.
A and Drima -
I am a naive Raccoon, I guess. I believe people. And when someone says repeatedly that he wants to kill me, tries to do so continuously (disregarding personal safety, prosperity and everything else just to kill me) and keeps explaining that - yes - we wants me dead, dead, dead and nothing can change that… I kind of tend to believe that he might actually mean what he says.
This is exactly what the Palestinians have been doing since they were created in the 60s.
The only people who want to actually kill Palestinians are Kahanists, and they are a very small group of psychopaths, outlawed and presecuted in Israel. They also want to kill gays, and lots of other people - they are religious psychos.
Schonerleben -
I agree with everything you say. Unfortunately, Israeli politics is a horrid, filthy swamp. These morons can’t find their arse with a map, much less create good PR.
Raccoon, I’m sorry dude. I refuse to believe that all or the majority of Palestinians want to destroy Israel and wipe it off the map. I’ve met too many sane Palestinians to believe that. Hamas was an alternative to corrupt Fatah. That’s why I believe the Palestinians voted for them and not because they wanted Israel destroyed. That’s pathetic. A few weak suicide bombers can’t do shit to Israel. They only end up hurting themselves and their people. That’s why I hate the stupidity of Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah etc.
Schonerleben, I hate to say it but I agree with almost all of what you say.
The Raccoon,
I also tend to believe what Drima just said. BUT I did not go into this part of discussion on purpose. I know that I am only looking from the outside, not living there, and trying to get a picture of what is going on by second hand information. (I try to get as much information from as different angles I can - in order to get a broader picture.. it still is second hand information.. and not only the discussion with the palestinian showed me, that my way of seeing things is not “the general truth” - if there is something like that out there).
Anyway. My point was to say, that I realized that on both sides, people believe in the threat to be killed and destroyed. I did not say, whether it is true or not. I cannot. I don’t know the future. All I can see is, that killing takes place on both sides already. So it is not an empty threat.
Some days ago and in this thread again, you wrote something about the palestinians as “weapons” and that their only cause of existance would be to destroy Israel. (or something along these lines). In my eyes this looks pretty much like you would deny them their right of existance..
I guess I would feel the same way, too, if I was convinced that they were out to kill me. From a distance and from the outside it yet reminds me of the discussion by radical palestinians about Israel.
I don’t know, if I go too far with this, but my impression is, that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have yet realized how powerful they are in the eyes of the other (in order to be capable of destroying a nation, you have to have a lot of power). And thus don’t realize that they are taken seriously as a deadly enemy (not by all, of course, but by those I am talking of).
It was only meant as an observation. Not as a blame.
A -
When I say that the Palestinians are a weapon-nation, I am merely stating a fact. The Palestinians were created as a nation in the 60s, with the explicit goal of being used as a weapon against Israel. It was discussed and decided pretty openly by the Arab League.
The purposes of individual Palestinians are different from the purposes of Palestinians as a nation. Individuals usually want pretty much the same things - sex, good living, satisfaction of their basic mental needs, etc. As a nation, it’s a whole different thing. The sole unifying element of Palestinian national identity is the desire to destroy Israel and genocide the Jews. It’s as simple as that - Palestinians are Arabs from many different tribes all over the Islamic world mixed with small populations of local tribes. They all hate each other almost as much as they hate Jews - the falakhs hate the urbans, the Arabs hate the Bedouins, the different clan-villages hate each other and everybody else, the different ethnicities hate each other (see Edomites for perfect example. They are a race of white-skinned, green-eyed, red-haired, belligerent tiny people, and they have a relationship of mutual hatred with every other ethnic group calling itself Palestinians), the Muslims hate the Christians… it’s a bloody, chaotic mess, held together mostly with hatred of Israel.
I don’t deny them their right to exist - that would be pretty Nazi of me to do so. I just have a slight problem with a neighbor that bases its national identity and aspirations on the need to kill me. I’m weird this way.
Drima - no, they can’t destroy Israel. But they do their best… and as they say, they only have to succeed ONCE. All it takes is enough time.
Oh, and Palestinians had other options besides psychotic, evil Hamas and psychotic, corrupt Fatah. They could have voted for non-corrupt, only slightly psychotic parties that have a pro-Palestinian (as opposed to anti-Israeli) political basis. Hamas are much like the National Democrat-Socialists of pre-WW2 Germany and Italian Fascists of the same period - they promise to make the trains run on time (and unlike the two other examples, they do not deliver even on this promise), invoke images of glory, sacrifice and all that crap and say they’ll kill lots of “bad guys”.
The Palestinians are not children. They knew exactly what they were voting for. Give them some credit.
“You’re right. Andrew, was very wrong to call Palestinians animals… very very wrong but I doubt he meant what he said.”
What are you talking about? I was referring to Hamas and Fatah. And I meant what I said.
“But I am sick and tried of these animals TRYING to kill Israelis just for the sake of killing them ”
I would also refer to Nazis as animals, but not to Bavarians or Saxons.
Why was it obvious to the both of you that the term “animals” could only possibly refer to “Palestinians”, even though in my statement I specifically referred to those who try to kill Jews?
“However suicide bombings on military targets and soldiers are completely justified… There’s nothing wrong with them except for the act of suicide itself but in this case Palestinians have no choice but to use such methods since they have no fighter planes or tanks.”
Why do the “Palestinians” have the right to violate a peace treaty they signed? How is that “completely justified”?
“Palestinians” do have a choice besides killing. They could at any point in history simply stop fighting.
Egypt and Jordan did.
“Salma, there will be peace when groups like Hamas recognize Israel’s right to exist and when Israel withdraws from all of the 1967 borders and ends its unjust and illegal occupation of Palestinian land. East Jerusalem for Palestine and Jewish Jerusalem to Israel.”
Won’t happen.
First, Golan was lost fair and square by Syria when Syria attacked Israel. There is no international law that forbids taking territory from an attacker.
Gaza and the West Bank were lost fair and square by Egypt and Jordan when they attacked Israel. The only issue is that the territories were not their to lose. And THAT is why I advocate Arab Palestinian sovereignty over these territories. Although it does destroy my point when an Israeli withdrawal like in Gaza and southern Lebanon is only understood as an invitation to kill more Jews rather than as a chance to build something.
There is NOTHING illegal about occupying territory won in a war, btw. We don’t need special laws to make something Israel does illegal. It’s either wrong or right, but it doesn’t become “wronger” just because it’s Israel. And when you claim that occupying territory is illegal when Israel does it, we have entered the realm of “wronger”.
As for Jerusalem, I doubt many Israelis want to keep East-Jerusalem. And the Arabs there, in contrast to those in the north, seem to want to be ruled by Fatah or some such group.
Israel will keep the old city, in the interest of universal access to the holy sites and since it is the holy city of Judaism. (You will find that I advocate Muslim control over Mecca just as strictly. In fact, I think the Saudis should give the entire region back to Muhammed’s family, i.e. the King of Jordan!)
“It took me a long while and a lot of effort to realize, that he really is convinced, that the Israelis are out there to kill and destroy the palestinians.”
Of course he is. Everybody keeps telling him. And then some maniac attacks Israel and invites retaliation and uses it as an example of Israeli oppression. Did he actually know any Jews? Does he consider attacks on Jewish civilians as at least as wrong as civilian deaths on his side when Israel tried to kill terrorists hiding among civilians?
At least he can get sympathy all over the world, even if he votes for Hamas.
“Now, I won’t go into this discussion here, but when I see the comment of The Raccoon (and also Andrew Brehm) above, I have the feeling that there are people on both sides, who are sure, that the other simply IS going to destroy you. (Whether this is plausible or not is probably more a question of the point of view).”
Except that somebody shot rockets at my university just to kill me, for no other reason. And that was done from a country that participated in at least one war that was supposed to DESTROY the country I was in. These things make you believe that the other side is going to destroy me, if allowed to.
OTOH, the Arabs seem to base the same belief on the fact that they couldn’t destroy Israel and that Israel fights back when attacked. It is totally different.
“However, the Arab world does not see Israel as a victim. They only do see the displacing of Arabs during the foundation of Israel.”
The displacing of Arabs happened during and after Arab attacks on the country, helped by the local Arab population. It had nothing to do with the foundation of Israel.
“They feel humiliated by the overwhelming power.”
And what exactly do you think Israeli feel when attacked by five Arab countries out to destroy the country? “Overwhelming power” is what you get when a well-Equipped Egyptian army, helped by Soviet technology, and their Arab allies try to destroy Israel while one Jewish tank brigade stops them. That is “overwhelming power”.
Israel’s “overwhelming power” today is the result of Israel’s ability to survive. The Arab countries could have got just as far if they had made different choices.
“I don’t know, if I go too far with this, but my impression is, that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have yet realized how powerful they are in the eyes of the other (in order to be capable of destroying a nation, you have to have a lot of power). ”
Important point, perhaps. Israel DOES have the power to destroy the “Palestinians”. But Israel doesn’t.
One side has the power to destroy, the other has the will. That’s the careful balance.
Disaster strikes of the Arab side becomes more powerful or if they can make Israel angry enough for Israelis to change their mind.
They are trying both strategies.
“The Palestinians are not children. They knew exactly what they were voting for. Give them some credit.”
I’m not sure. I have spoken to one who didn’t know where Ireland was. I told him it was basically England.
“The displacing of Arabs happened during and after Arab attacks on the country, helped by the local Arab population. It had nothing to do with the foundation of Israel.”
Thx for putting me right.
My statement on Israel’s power was no critics. Just one factor which pisses Arabs off.
“Important point, perhaps. Israel DOES have the power to destroy the “Palestinians”. But Israel doesn’t.
One side has the power to destroy, the other has the will. That’s the careful balance.
Disaster strikes of the Arab side becomes more powerful or if they can make Israel angry enough for Israelis to change their mind.
They are trying both strategies.”
Very true. Often enough, when ppl are accusing Israel of genocide, I have to laugh. If Israel had any motivation in doing so, it would be much easier to start with the Muslim/Arab minority living in Israel, about 12% if I am right. Second, it would not take over 60 years to kill the Arab population for such a well trained and equipped army.
I do wonder why not more Arabs get up and fight for a better society. They do not yet realize that most of their problems come from the inside of their culture. But it’s always easier to rally behind some idiots promising the moon beyond all reality…
Andrew - ignorant, yes. Infantile, no… but for some reason they’d have you believe otherwise.
I know people in Israel who’ve never heard of Alexander the Great. Yesterday me and a friend of mine (his grandparents are from Tobago) tried to explain to some random people where the Bermuda Triangle is. It wasn’t only that it was the first time they heard of the name Tobago (or Trinidad), they didn’t have even the most basic map of the world in their minds. Are they ignorant? Shamefully so. Are they children? Absolutely not.
I find myself in complete agreement with Andrew Brehm.
The media and Israeli raids over the decades have time and time again directed us away from the real question…and left people wondering why there’s so much hatred for Jews among Palestinians, and Arabs in general.
Who does the land really belong to?
The displaced Palestinians? Or the Jewish settlers?
Hint: “displaced” & “settlers”
Well, it depends what you mean by the Jewish settlers. The conflict is not only about the settlers in the illegal farms. Anyway, Israel has started to drawback some settlements. Any positive move from Israel in the past few years has led to more violence from the Palestinians. So how can you wonder they stopped the process?
Andrew, I was talking about it from an Islamic perspective… ie. attacking civilians not accepted but military targets okay… I wasn’t talking in the context of any treaty…
AND about the Golan Heights, I admit I missed that one.
Schoenerleben, I think Sam is talking about the period prior to the formation of Israel.
His question also takes us into an area I hate getting into… Zionism and the desire for a Jewish homeland.
“Who does the land really belong to?
The displaced Palestinians? Or the Jewish settlers?
Hint: “displaced” & “settlers””
Could be the displaced Jews or the Arab settlers?
What about the Greek invaders? Or the Romans?
Or the Jews, who the Quran claims own the land.
Or the Turks who owned it before WW1?
Or the British who owned it after WW1?
It seems to be perfectly logical to some that among ALL the different owners and invaders of that particular country, it is only and exactly the Arabs who “own” it. Why?
According to international law, land taken in a defensive war belongs to the victor. That would Israel lord over all of Palestine west of the Jordan, the Golan Heights, and Sinai.
Sinai was given back in a peace treaty. That is fine.
And I think parts of Cisjordan should be given to the Arabs who live there, because it was taken from them by the Egyptians and Transjordanians.
But apart from that it is very clear who “owns” the land: there is a blue flag over it, isn’t there?
The land was owned by Jews, Greeks, Romans, Byzantinians, Arabs, Turks, the British, and the Jews again. All of them took it by force at some point. The Jews have merely behaved slightly better towards the current previous population. How should we punish them?
“I was talking about it from an Islamic perspective… ie. attacking civilians not accepted but military targets okay… I wasn’t talking in the context of any treaty…”
True. But I don’t know off hand what the Quran says about treaties.
Either way, the Islamic perspective is very clear on:
a) whose land it is
b) whether suicide is legal
c) whether killing civilians is legal
d) what the Jews will and must do when attacked
I’m afraid the terrorists and their supporters will go to hell, not just for the suicide bombings, but also for attacking Jews in the holy land, no matter if civilian or military.
A martyr is a Jew who is killed because he is a Zionist.
A martyr is not a self-proclaimed Muslim who dies trying to kill a Jew because of his victim’s Jewish faith.
If you die for your faith, you are a martyr.
But if you willingly die trying to commit murder, and the target is a martyr, then you go to hell. I really do believe that. If there is a hell, it is for those people.
“left people wondering why there’s so much hatred for Jews among Palestinians, and Arabs in general.”
I don’t know. You tell me.
Why were Jews second-class citizens in Muslim countries, long after Christian countries accepted Jews as normal citizens?
Why did Arabs attack Jewish settlements in Palestine long before Israel was founded?
Why did Jews have to flee Arab countries after the formation of Israel (which Arab Jews had nothing to do with)?
Why did Arab armies attack a new state which gave equal rights to its Jewish and Arab citizens?
Why is Judaism illegal in Saudi-Arabia?
Why are Hitler’s Mein Kampfs and the Russian Protocols of the Elders sold in Arab countries? Neither have anything to do with Israel.
Please, do tell me.
I’ve always wanted to know.
Why is there so much hatred for Jews among Arabs?
(And why are “Palestinians” Arabs? What about Jewish Palestinians of families that lived in Palestine before Arabic was ever spoken in the region? When were Jews no longer “Palestinians”? Is it like Germany when Jews were not Germans any more? What happened?)
Guys guys-
There is an important missing point here.
Israel has done in error what the Palestinians and, earlier, Hizballah, have tried like hell to do on purpose…randomly send explosives into civilian areas and kill innocent people.
Does anybody here truly not see how different this is? Israel has weapons that could take out a city block at one shot. If civilian death was their goal, then “only” 19. It would be thousands and thousands per day.
I know Israeli soldiers and how they are trained. I have had numerous friends and family members serve and are serving in the IDF. There is enormous emphasis placed on avoiding civilian casualities.
Can the same be said for the Palestinian side? Where Kassams are daily fired into the air and have NO military value at all…NONE same as the Kaytushas had NO military value…purely anti-civilian, terror weapons. Kassams and suicide attacks are almost always geared towards purposeful and maximum CIVILIAN casualty. If this were the Israeli policy…the slaughter would be off the charts in one day.
I see the moral eqivalency arguement all the time. Israel is certainly not above criticism and we have enormous self-criticism and internal debate all the time. Do the Palestinians? Is their a Palestinian Left? A Palestinian anti-war movement? Can they speak up without being murdered by their own?
Once you take the emotion out of your responses and think this through, it is a very different kind of issue.
“Once you take the emotion out of your responses and think this through, it is a very different kind of issue.”
That’s impossible, mate. Why do you think Israel interests people so much? Why half a million dead in, say, Sudan barely get a two-paragraph notice somewhere at the back of the paper, but if 2 Arabs are killed by Israel, it’s on the front page?
It’s not about politics. Nobody in the “international community” gives a fuck about the Palestinians, really - it’s all about the Evil Joooz taking over the world and daring to get out of the concentration camps.
Drima, my apologies for digressing & with all due respect to Andrew & Raccoon, these 2 guys were Islam-bashing & calling the Quran contradictory & all you say is : “Anyways, I know you guys must be frustrated… I am too… Huge positive differences are hard to make but you guys should know you made a big difference on the outlook and perspective of this Drima right here… ”
Incredible!!!!!
“these 2 guys were Islam-bashing”
Quote even ONE statement I made that was “Islam-bashing”.
“calling the Quran contradictory ”
Quote even ONE statement where I claimed that the Quran was contradictory and explain why such a claim would be bad or wrong or impolite or in any way unacceptable.
What I did do was quote the Quran on the issue. And quite in contrast to claiming that it was contradictory I even concluded that Muhammed was a Zionist because of what the Quran says. You can have an issue with my conclusion or even with my quotes, but you cannot say that I claimed that the Quran contradicts itself.
Hipster, if you look back at previous posts you’d realize there were a lot of debates about Islam and the Quran. Raccoon and I have discussed the idea of God’s existence, dealing with the idea of death, interpretting the Koran’s controversial verses and other things various times. That didn’t only happen here but also on Sandmonkey’s blog. At the end of those discussions 95% of the time Raccoon and I end up disagreeing. Religion is a topic that him and I find very difficult to agree upon.
There’s nothing incredible about me not commenting on Raccoon’s thoughts on the Quran being contradictory. There’s a difference between making direct insults towards Islam and making a point. He wasn’t saying what he said with a specific intent to insult Islam. There were even times where he apologized for the anti-religion things he stated and he clearly said that he has no intent to insult anybody. He just says what he believes. I don’t mind that because I know he doesn’t mean such things as an insult and I know he’s got mutual respect. That’s what’s important when exchanging points. Mutual respect. If anybody came here and started making direct insults, I’ll delete their damn comments. (BTW you want to see direct insults then read some of the comment sections at JihadWatch or LGF). They’re 2 of the biggest blogs in the world. They have no problem even bashing our Prophet and they openly call Islam a violent religion. A lot of the comments there are a hate fest.
As far as I know, Raccoon thinks Islam is crazy (not just Islam but all religions). In fact, he thinks the idea of God is also crazy. I on the other hand think denying God’s existence is the crazy thing to do. Yes, I shall say it again, atheism is crazy but bring a few atheists to this blog and they will all argue against that and instead call me crazy. If they go on making direct insults, I’ll delete them. If they discuss things and say what’s on their mind with mutual respect then I have no problem listening to their views. What’s wrong with trying to learn what others think of my religion or political views? Trying to see the world through other peoples’ eyes can be a very mind broadening experience. Will I agree with atheists on the idea of God’s non-existence for example? Never I predict. Will Raccoon agree with me? I highly doubt it. Hence, I’ve learnt to stop getting into this debate all the time. There are times and specific posts where I can and will since it’s a very fruitfull experience but this post isn’t one. This post is about Israel and the latest massacre in Palestine.
Raccoon was just saying what he thought. The guy is an atheist and he doesn’t even believe that God exists. It’s not like I can force him to believe otherwise. The same is the case with Quran. He believes it’s contradictory. I don’t because I know well it shouldn’t be read and taken literally. There’s a context that must be included otherwise verses will indeed look contradicting.
Besides, Andrew, Raccoon, Tsedek and Nominally Challenged did help change my perspective about Israel and Israelis. Through my discussions with them I’ve become more able to seperate illusions and conspiracy theories from facts. It’s been a wonderful experience so far and I defintely look forward to more as long as I’ve got internet and my computer is working.
(Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and sincere exhortations and debate with them in manners that are most appropriate - Quran, Surat Al-Nahl 16:125)
We humans are driven by a need to communicate, a need to reach out. That’s why I blog, communicate and start discussions with people. It’s a very powerful experience. For now this is my way of trying to make a positive difference in other peoples’ perceptions and hopefully have them do the same to me.
You’ll never find 2 people who agree 100% with each other all the time on all issues. Never. Hence sometimes we just gotta agree to disagree even when it comes to very sensitive topics. Gotta make your skin a little thicker girl and remember, patience is a virtue
Yalla ya bit ya 3ajeeeb inti… Salam
Yei! Understanding and respectful disagreement galore! *raccoonish hugs*
oooffffffffff, now that I have calmed down, I can think clearly.
First off, Andrew, I guess I owe you an apology.Your reply to Raccoon’s” The Quran is contradictory” gave me the impression that you were concurring with him.My bad!!!
Secondly, Drima, Drima, Drima, inta ya 3jeeb, inshallah bas ma takoon za3lan mini 3shan al email.If I’m missing something, lemme know.As for your past arguments with Raccoon, strange, Ive read 98% of the archive & came across only 1 religious argument with Raccoon.Anyway, I apologize.
As for the Raccoon who started the whole mess;), he is always in my prayers.
Back to topic, what have you on the following:
http://sudanesetruthseeker.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-israeli-question-by-antony.html
Back to the main topic
Hipster I just emailed u back…
and no gurl, there is more than 1 argument in this blog… did u for example check the I Like Clitoris post? we did talk about the idea of death for example… therez more… its all there in different posts.
cheers
sorry for the delay.. been away for the weekend.
a) The Raccoon: Thanks for the clarification of your statement! (and sorry for getting too far with my assumptions.
b) Andrew Brehm: the guy I was talking about has spent two years in prison at the age of 15-17 for burning tyres and throwing stones.. probably not the best possibility to meet Jews on a face to face level and to really get to know each other.
But once again: My statement was NOT meant as a blame! (it seems difficult to believe that). But an observation.
I did NOT say that there would be no reason to fear each other. And I did NOT say who’s fault it is or anything like that. Frankly I don’t think I am in the place to make any judgement about that.
sorry that the word “sorry” doesn’t change anything.
How can one expect peace between peoples if one can’t accept an apology for a mistake? I’ve had it with Islamists writing fatwas that say if I accidentally step on a Muslim’s foot, he’s entitled to kill me.
Mistakes happen in war. Israelis are not targeting civliians on purpose, or Gazan terrorists wouldn’t be calling on unarmed women to shield them from Israeli bullets. By contrast, Hamas, Hezbollah, et al generally prefer to target defenseless civilians.
Therefore, if it is the deaths of “innocent victims and children” you care about, your outrage would be best applied to your fellow Arabs, is that not so?
Drima - check out http://smartandfinalisis.wordpress.com/
You like!
“the guy I was talking about has spent two years in prison at the age of 15-17 for burning tyres and throwing stones.. probably not the best possibility to meet Jews on a face to face level and to really get to know each other.”
So his opinion about Jews is based on their reaction when he throws stones at them?
“Mistakes happen in war. Israelis are not targeting civliians on purpose, or Gazan terrorists wouldn’t be calling on unarmed women to shield them from Israeli bullets.”
I for one am proud that my enemies believe that un-armed women and children are a good defence against my troops.
As long as the enemy believes that, we are doing the right thing, I think.
“I did NOT say that there would be no reason to fear each other.”
But I did. The Arabs have no reason to fear Jews unless they try to kill them. If the Arabs would leave the Jews alone, the war would be over.
It’s that simple.
Andrew Brehm,
Yes, I guess so.. and all those other experiences someone makes who is living in a refugee camp in the West Bank. Including - of course - being raised with a clear picture of “the enemy” and who’s fault this is.. And this is the utterly sad thing about it, because all those things make it even more difficult to get out of this vicious circle. The longer I try to understand and learn what is going on, the less points I can find, where I would see a chance for change, because it seems so intertwined. And this is one part of the reasons why I still would second Drima on the “deadly deadlock”..
Maybe I should tell you something about myself, to make it clearer, what I try to say, or not:
When I started to get interested in this conflict (because of people I met, who live there) I had the idea, that somehow, there must be a “good” and a “bad” side.. there must be “right” and “wrong”.. and that I should “do” something about it, because on both sides people told me that it is about the impending elimination of a people. (As a German, who learned - and cherishes - the “never again” after the Holocaust, this obviously seemed to be THE place, I should get involved, if I was serious about this vow.. the question only was “on which side”.. and the longer I tried to find out the “truth” and the “right side”.. the more I got confused. And to be utterly honest this is where I am now: I don’t believe in right and wrong anymore. Nor in good and bad. At least not as absolute entities. It seems to be always a question of the perspective. It leaves me at a point where I feel that I can do nothing. Not even take sides. .. and still something holds me there and I still try to understand and learn. But I could not explain to you or anybody else, not even to myself, why. Maybe it is still the wish that there could be peace one day.
Good night,
a from Berlin
a from berlin,
I am from Berlin as well. I think you should contact me at ajbrehm@gmail.com and then send your phone number after my reply. I think I have an interesting story for you.
http://www.netneurotic.net.
“and the longer I tried to find out the “truth” and the “right side”.. the more I got confused.”
I arrived in Israel when Hizbullah were shooting rockets at my university. The rockets were filled with metal parts and were only capable of killing people. They did not destroy much else. They were not designed to.
The rockets were fired, for several years, only at civilian targets, Arab and Jewish and Druze, in Israel. The world only woke up when Israel shot back, after FIVE years.
The Hizbullah terrorists then hid among Lebanese civilians, obviously assuming that a human shield is a possible defence against Israel. Hizbullah’s opinion of Israel is high: Hizbullah firmly believe that they are safe behind women and children, at least more safe than outside villages.
In Israel, when you walk into a shopping mall or restaurant, security check you for bombs and weapons. That happens not because the Arabs want peace and Israel doesn’t. It happens because enough Arabs try to kill people in shopping malls and restaurants that it became more economical to check everyone for bombs and weapons than to risk death and destruction. In most countries, it is more economical to take the risk, because the risk is lower.
I know that Jews in Israel MUST do that because of their Arab neighbours.
Do you think many Arab countries require security checks in shopping malls because of the risk of a Jew smuggling in a bomb in an attempt to kill a dozen Arabs?
Do you think Israel enjoys spending money in its military that it could spend on other things? Do you think Israel would spend a single dime on terrorising Arabs in the occupied territories if the alternative were cheaper AND more sufficiently secure?
No, there is a right side and a wrong side. The right side are those who have to fear bombs in shopping malls. The wrong side are those who feel secure from the other side’s wrath when hiding behind children.
All religion and violence aside, shouldn’t the living conditions in Palestine be included in this discussion? The Israeli occupation has made it impossible for those living in Palestinian territories to live with dignity, freedom, and security. As an American I take these for granted. But without them, I can’t even imagine…
I definitely do not understand how anyone can commit an act of terrorism but I do understand that riot movements arise in response to oppression, lack of freedom, and injustice. We are comparing a large state like Israel to places where the press can’t even get in, and if they do manage, they are putting their lives at stake.
According to the UN, in Gaza alone, the poverty rate is at around 67% and a reported 51% of Palestinians cannot meet their daily food needs. The obstruction of mobility in the Palestinian territories by the IDF is not only enforced upon the civilians but the international aid workers and since elections the US has withdrawn its aid to the region. People have difficulties reaching jobs, schools, healthcare facilities, and places of worship b/c of the lack of freedom of movement. I’ve heard a number of stories about women who have had to give birth at Israeli security checkpoints.
The Apartheid wall divides their community into many pieces, uses up valuable land, and makes it impossible to maintain normal family, economic, and human relations. According to human rights organizations, Israeli bulldozers have demolished more than 12,000 Palestinian homes in the West Bank and Gaza, leaving tens of thousands of Palestinians without shelter. (and that was reported in 2005) I remember seeing one of the few documentaries on life in a neighborhood of Gaza and the children had to watch for Israeli bullets anytime they were walking through the streets and even their homes had bullet holes all over their walls and doors. It was heartbreaking.
I would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered. Israel can continue to use violence and occupation in response to violence but in my opinion, the root of what the western world considers terrorism (occupation and lack of freedom-think Iraq) will not be addressed and the level of violence will only increase.
I disagree with you on putting the terrorism in Iraq together with that of Palestine… The 2 are different and distinct. However I agree with you on the rest of what you say… It’s certainly one hell of a complex conflict.
Thanks for dropping by. Cheers
“All religion and violence aside, shouldn’t the living conditions in Palestine be included in this discussion?”
No.
Why should they? Their living conditions are not worse than the living conditions of any people who fight a war and lose. It’s not unique.
” would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation”
I would. Had Israel not reacted violently to the party of Satan’s attack on my university, I would have been hit, eventually. I will happily defend violence or absolutely anything Israel does to defend me against those who want to kill me.
“but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered.”
Yes, by the supporters of the terrorists. Terrorism has not made the situation any better.
“Israel can continue to use violence and occupation in response to violence”
And hopefully Israel will.
“but in my opinion, the root of what the western world considers terrorism (occupation and lack of freedom-think Iraq) will not be addressed and the level of violence will only increase.”
“considers” terrorism? It _IS_ terrorism. But it was not caused by “occupation”, because Arab attacks against Jews in Palestine started a long time before Jews controlled any part of Palestine. And the first war of Arab countries against Israel happened before Israel was a Jewish majority state. The local Arabs had the choice between defending the new country or helping the attackers kill the Jews. They have made their choice. A minority among them made a different choice. I have spoken to both types. The first still want to get rid of the Jews, the second want to live in peace. Guess who I have more sympathy with.
When Egypt and Jordan occupied the Arab part of Palestine, Arab terrorism was directed at Jews, not the occupiers.
And terrorism in Iraq has started when Iraq was more free rather than less. It is freedom that allows for terrorism, because in a truly restrictive state you cannot smuggle weapons and walk towards your victims.
So your argument that occupation and lack of freedom causes terrorism is, I am afraid, not only simply but also wrong.
Palestinian Arabs do not attack Jews because of the occupation, they attack Jews because they are still able to smuggle weapons and move freely.
The “apartheid wall” (which will keep the terrorists and the Jews apart) has already decreased the number of terror acts. I’m afraid that also contradicts your theory.
And I think maybe you should adapt.
Do you know of any examples for an occupation or lack of freedom causing an increase in terrorism rather than a decrease?
A wall is not that bad. I grew in a city surrounded by one. And we were not dangerous for the population of the country around us, only for their government.
Safro - amusingly, the Palestinians could be a very prosperous state. They enjoyed a tremendous economic growth during the brief period of Hudna.
And yet they chose to throw it away for a chance to kill some Joooz. I have seen it happen, in Jericho. It literally changed fom a prosperous, booming town based on tourism and service industries into a shithole within a week. Why? S’very simple. The most profitable place in Jericho was the Oasis Casino - pure profit of many millions of dollars every month. When Islamic Jihad terrorists started using its roof as a platform for snipers, the IDF (for some obscure reason) started firing at it. The casino closed down. Affluent shops and restaurants suddenly became terrorist firing positions. The streets filled with rubble. Within a WEEK. I used to love that place - a chill small town, lots of interesting historical places, excellent coffee, the right place to go if you’re looking to buy a garden statue. Can you blame the Evil Jooz for what has happened to it?
Every time Israel open a crossing, it’s used for terrorism. Ambulances used to cross freely… until IDF discovered they were used to transport terrorists, explosives and weapons. Various international aid organizations could cross freely… until IDF discovered they are more often than not a cover for terrorists, smuggling explosives, guns and terror experts. Pregnant women in private vehicles used to get a free pass, too… until it was discovered that some of these women are actually pregnant with explosives.
And Gaza… what a shithole. Israel tried to help them improve their lot. IDF withdrew completely from Gaza, leaving behind especially constructed high-tech greenhouses worth millions of dollars - built by Jews for Gazan Arabs. A gift, freely given. The greenhouses were destroyed within a couple of days. Within a month their remains used as cover for tunnels to smuggle terrorists into Israel. Fields and groves given freely to Gazan Arabs were used to hide terrorist training camps and to launch rockets at Israeli towns.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. You cannot expect a weapon to build things… and the Palestinians are a weapon.
And “apartheid” wall? It’s a wall on Israel’s borders, seperating Israel from a violent neighbor bent on the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jewish people. The pathetic newlings of anti-semites do not change the facts - it’s a very effective barrier, stopping 85+% of attempted terrorist infiltration into Israel. In practical numbers, it saves hundreds of Jewish lives every month, if not more (there are dozens of attempted infiltations every month).
Look up the definition of “apartheid”. Your usage is slanderous and libelous - and you are either naive, stupid or malicious for using it in this case. Naivete can be cured by learning, maliciousness sometimes can be cured by a miracle (i.e. Walid Shoebat). Stupidity, I am afraid, is only cured by death. I do hope you’re of the first kind.
And about your last shining example of spectacular rational thought, deep knowledge and brilliant analysis… there is a Hebrew saying applicable to this case, as usual:
“He who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful”.
Sounds better in Hebrew, I must admit - hamerakhem al akhzarim sofo lehitakhzer le rakhmanim.
And the root of terrorism is not occupation and lack of freedom. Just ask Osama Bin Laden.
Ye Gods, I am so tired of this crap. So let me sum it up:
Thank you for your contribution to the fall of Western Civilization (AKA “Civilization as we know it”). It is not much, but every bit counts. Enjoy your excruciating death by nuclear fire, courtesy of the 12th Imam. Or, if you’re lucky, enjoy your up-and-coming slavery under the Caliphate.
Oh, and Safro -
” would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation…”
So you fully support Chamberlein’s attitude towards Nazi Germany. Congrats. See my thank-you note above.
“…but the dire situation in Palestinian territories needs to be considered.”
So you’re basically kind of supportive of Palestinian terrorism. Well done. Again, see the thank-you note above.
ufff. Chambelain. With an A. As in Arthur Neville.
Damn… you guys sure don’t get tired… I would love to join this and state some points in detail but I’m afraid I don’t have the time. I can’t wait to get done with these freaking exam papers… so much to say and post about. It will have to wait.
Good night… gotta go to the damn library first thing early morning. *yawn
The Raccoon has made a few good points there, although I do not agree with everything he said.
But be that as it may, the connection between terrorism is poverty is a shaky one.
The world’s most famous terrorist is a Saudi millionaire. And the word’s poorest die of hunger in sub-Saharan Africa and terrorise noone, they have neither the means nor the will (or an excuse).
If you want to look for connections between terrorism and X, try the following X (and I am not saying that the connection is true or meaningful, just that it’s stronger than “poverty” or “lack of freedom”):
X = Arabs
X = Muslims
X = Country with religious Muslim minority or majority
X = Arab country that is not a dictatorship
X = Anti-Semites
X = Anti-British and Anti-American
X = Communists
X = Anti-monarchist
But X = poor people or X = oppressed people doesn’t cut it. Most of the poor, especially the very poor, do not support or breed terrorism at all. They are just hungry. (Yet we give money to Palestinian Arabs instead!) And most of the oppressed cannot support terrorism because they are oppressed. (Communist eastern Europe did not have a huge terrorism problem.)
What do you think?
The Kurds keep Iraqi Kurdistan terror-free by keeping Arab Muslims out. They do not keep poor or oppressed people out, they screen for “Arab” and “Muslim”.
They don’t do it because they hate Arabs or Muslims, at least I hope not. They are doing it because “Arab” and “Muslim” correspond to “terror” more often than “poor” and “oppressed”.
In fact, the Kurds were the most oppressed people in Saddam’s Iraq, yet they are not among the terror groups now. Odd, that?
me: I would never defend violence on either side of this conflict or in any situation
Andrew: I would.
In my opinion, I agree with the saying “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” I’m sorry to hear that your university was in the line of fire but I see humanity on both sides of the conflict and I don’t think blind anger and retaliation is going to solve any conflict (without mass devastation anyway).
We just have different views of the world and that’s fine. After 9/11 many Americans in their anger supported immediate military retaliation as the solution. After the initial shock wore off, my reaction was to wonder what we have done and what we are doing to create such anti-American sentiment overseas and what could be done in the future to make such an attack less likely. Of course we ended up occupying Afghanistan and Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) and in doing so, from what I can tell, have only spread anti-americanism and terrorism.
Andrew: Terrorism has not made the situation any better.
You’re right. But that goes for both sides. And staying on this subject I said “what the western world refers to as terrorism” only because I think that any form of targeting civilians is a form of terrorism, which includes American and Israel attacks on civilian structures. I know that in our military operations it is our policy that if we are trying to kill an individual and they may or may not be in a building full of civilians, it is okay to drop a bomb on the building. I believe that is terrorism.
Andrew: And terrorism in Iraq has started when Iraq was more free rather than less. It is freedom that allows for terrorism, because in a truly restrictive state you cannot smuggle weapons and walk towards your victims.
Andrew: Do you know of any examples for an occupation or lack of freedom causing an increase in terrorism rather than a decrease?
Sorry this is going to get off topic but you think that Iraqis are more free now? What kind of freedom are you talking about? Iraqis can’t even walk outside without fearing explosions or gunfire. Men can’t wear shorts, women have to be completely covered from head to toe. Women aren’t allowed to drive a car. If anyone steps out of line slightly or moves too quickly they have to fear being shot by either American forces or the Iraqi security forces. They are subjected to random house raids of men with guns who may or may not be on the side of the occupiers. And this all occurred AFTER the occupation. (I read a lot of Iraqi blogs) Iraq may be less one dictator but he has been replaced by hundreds of thousands of occupiers. To me it looks like they have less freedom and a whoooole lot more terrorism.
“Look up the definition of “apartheid”.
I did…there are two different definitions and one is simply “separation.” I believe that is quite fitting. Hah and wow I really enjoyed your insults. Keep those coming! Just because I have a different perspective, it actually doesn’t make me stupid. Really.
Safro - yes, and a Nationalist Socialist-Democratic party is just a democratic party which happens to lean towards socialism and national unity. And Swastika is just a Hindu symbol, singifying the Sun or evolution/involution of the Universe (Brahma).
Memes are these little things which have a profound effect on what the words you say actually mean.
Strangely, I did not try to insult you (although, admittedly, I did not try not to insult you). As I said, I hope that you are not stupid but merely ill-informed, so to speak.
“A different perspective” can mean a lot of things, you know… David Duke has a “different perspective” from yours truly, for example.
Not that I am saying that your perspective is the same as Mr. Duke’s. It’s just that it contributes to the demise of the West and the end of civilization, for which I have thanked you (on the behalf of unborn generations which will never be born).
Yes, I am a bit sarcastic. But then again, I bet ol’ Winnie also was right after “peace in our time” declaration.
“But X = poor people or X = oppressed people doesn’t cut it. Most of the poor, especially the very poor, do not support or breed terrorism at all. They are just hungry. (Yet we give money to Palestinian Arabs instead!)”
The way you word this it sounds like you are saying Palestinian Arabs are all terrorists. You see an enemy as a whole. What you fail to see is that like any population of people there are the good and the bad. Yes there are many evil Palestinians who are the extremists who commit acts of terrorism. But there are also many Palestinians who are victims of both sides of this conflict and just want to live in peace. Here in the US we have plenty of domestic malevolence…the amount of gun violence is ridiculous and there are rapes, robberies, and murders all the time. Plenty of bad seeds and yet the majority of Americans like to live in peaceful ignorance! hah…
And I don’t quite think my way of thinking is going to lead to the demise of the western civilization as flattering as that may be (hah) and I don’t believe I am misinformed. Instead of representing my country by dropping bombs or firing at foreign targets, I prefer to join the Peace Corps…I support my country by helping the homeless many of which ironically are war veterans whose lives have been ruined. That is my contribution and at least it’s a contribution. (Come on, I’m sure you can find a way to belittle this!)
Perhaps it was a little “naive” to use “Apartheid” in reference to the wall and I will not be using it again. Quite a few human rights groups refer to the wall as the “Apartheid wall” and that’s why I referred to it as such.
“In my opinion, I agree with the saying “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” I’m sorry to hear that your university was in the line of fire but I see humanity on both sides of the conflict and I don’t think blind anger and retaliation is going to solve any conflict ”
Several points:
1. There was no “eye for an eye”. The Israelis fought to STOP the attacks.
2. My unversity was not “in the line of fire”, the Satanists TARGETED it because there were Jewish students in it. I am sorry that Jewish students are a target. I don’t buy the “in the line of fire” nonsense. You make it sound as if the Satanists tried to shoot at something and we just happened to be in the way. No, my friend, we were the target because of what we were.
3. I do not see humanity on both sides. I do not see the humanity in those people who throw rockets filled with metal parts into civilian areas for the sole purpose of killing as many Israelis as possible. I do see the humanity in those who are killed for being Jewish and I do see the humanity in those who shoot back to stop the rocket throwers, even when they are hiding among civilians. I do not agree that there is “humanity” in the attackers.
4. I did not claim that “blind anger” has anything to do with the Israeli reaction.
5. Retaliation is not going to solve the conflict. That is true. UNFORTUNATELY, and that is OUR problem, not doing anything WILL. Because at some point, if we do not defend ourselves, we will all be dead. That would solve the conflict. But that isn’t my goal. I do not want to solve the conflict. I want to survive. If solving the conflict helps me survive, I will try to solve the conflict. If keeping the conflict going helps me survive, I will try to keep the conflict going. If defending myself is retaliation and keeps the conflict going, I will defend myself (or let others do it for me). Ending the conflict is not the point, survival is. Ending the conflict is easy and can be done without a single shot fired from Israel’s side. But the price is too high for me.
“We just have different views of the world and that’s fine. After 9/11 many Americans in their anger supported immediate military retaliation as the solution”
So we should have waited for the Satanists to kill us all instead of shooting back? Is that your plan? Is that your alternative?
“I think that any form of targeting civilians is a form of terrorism, which includes American and Israel attacks on civilian structures.”
America and Israel do not attack civilian structures, unless the terrorists hide in them. That doesn’t make America and Israel terrorists. It makes the terrorists war criminals (because it is forbidden to hide among civilians).
Do you actually expect Israel to ignore terrorists if they are hiding among women and children? Should Israelis die for that principle of yours? I do not want to die just because other people think it’s wrong to shoot at terrorists who hide among civilians. The civilians who allow the terrorists to hide thus are NOT WORTH IT. My life is to me, and to Israel, worth more than the lives of the terrorists’ supporters. And I think that that is good!
“but you think that Iraqis are more free now?”
Yes. And if you read a lot of Iraqi blogs you might have read about the situation before the invasion. If you think the Iraqis were more free then, you have missed an awful lot of history. Ask a Kurd?
“The way you word this it sounds like you are saying Palestinian Arabs are all terrorists”
No, but they do support and breed terrorism. They voted for Hamas. I can blame them for that. If the world has to choose between supporting them and some hungry Africans, why not support the Africans? What’s so special about Arabs? I don’t get it.
“Perhaps it was a little “naive” to use “Apartheid” in reference to the wall and I will not be using it again. Quite a few human rights groups refer to the wall as the “Apartheid wall” and that’s why I referred to it as such.”
Once organisations that refer to a wall that protects Jews from those who want to exterminate them as an “apartheid wall” are not called “human rights groups” any more we’ll have peace.
Terror attacks went down since the wall was constructed. Why exactly is that not a human rights success? Are Jews (and Israeli Druze and Arabs) not also human and have rights? What about the right not to be attacked by members and supporters of a group that wants to exterminate your nation? Why are human rights groups not worried about the violation of that right?
A _real_ human rights group would see how the wall saves innocent people and would realise that that is, in fact, a protection of human rights on a greater scale than they themselves are capable of.
Safro -
In no particular order:
I can find a way to belittle your aid to the homeless… but I won’t. It’s actually commendable.
But it does not negate your other contribution to society.
Without the USA dropping bombs on foreign targets, I would not have been born; one of my grandmothers would have died in a concentration camp, and both my grandfathers and another grandmother would have died fighting the Nazis. So I am kind of thankful to the USA for dropping bombs on foreign targets.
The problem with giving aid to Palestinians is multi-faceted. Palestinians as a nation are a weapon. No two ways about it - s’just what they are, and not of their own volition. But then again, they don’t seem to mind. Another problem is that the aid is given to the leaders of the “Palestinians” - that is, to a specific faction or clan. Since they hate each other almost as much as they hate the Jooz, they don’t really share. Israel gave the Palestinians billions of dollars worth of aid… and then invested billions more making sure it actually gets to the people who need it. If you want, I can tell you lots of humorous and sad stories about Palestinian clans fighting over a water pipe provided by Israel, trying to make sure their clan is the only one getting the water (rather than everyone in their area, as intended by Israel). Or just ask Suha Arafat where she got her exorbitant amounts of dollars from.
And what happens to the aid when it gets into the hands of a clan/faction? That of it which is not stolen is used to fund terrorism. The commoners don’t see a dime of it… and since they don’t do anything to change the situation and cheer when they see their aid dollars used to kill Jooz, one can but presume that they’re happy with the way things are.
Again, Palestinians do not need financial aid. They need an army of psychologists to help them get over their anger management problem, narcissism, paranoia and hatred… and start actually doing something with the incredible potential inherent in their location. Actually, they can start by simply not ruining everything they have and anything anyone gives them.
Oh, and many “human rights groups” are fronts for terrorist organization, defenders of terrorists or funders of terrorists. Lovely people. I am sure their definitions are spot on.
And there are people who are not indoctrinated in hatred, who do not exist as a nation solely to destroy another nation, and who genuinely have nothing and need aid (rather than to stop acting like children in a tantrum).
Palestinians sure like to present themselves as victims. But freedom ain’t free, and they are victims only of themselves.
Safro,
Did you refer to the groups in question as “human rights groups” because YOU saw them do something for human rights or because THEY called themselves “human rights groups”.
To be quite honest, I’d have more trust in your assessment than in theirs!
No, I was not very familiar with any of these human rights groups so it was their own assessment. But honestly try searching the internet for “apartheid wall” and you will get a ton of results! Although I do admit I was being biased when I referred to the wall like that-how do you like “separation wall?” While I was searching, I found this article on an Israeli news site (Haaretz) and I would like to quote it here:
“For the Israelis it is a “separation fence,” for the Palestinians - an “apartheid wall.” For the Israelis it is an ideal, for the Palestinians an existential threat. For most Israelis it is a magic solution to the dread of terrorism. For the Palestinians it is a profound fear. Once again, they don’t understand one another, two nations who don’t grasp the meaning of each other’s anxieties.
A separation fence, a protective wall, security, war against terror - but the Israelis have no idea of the cost to the Palestinians. After the settlements, the outposts, the bypass roads, the confiscations, the closure, the encirclement, the unemployment and the curfew, now this problem has fallen upon the heads of thousands of residents who live in the area of the fence, who once again find themselves victims through no fault of their own. Farmers whose fields have been expropriated, vintners whose vineyards have been trampled, shepherds whose pastures have been lost, farmers whose plots and wells have remained on the other side of the fence, unemployed men whose last source of livelihood has also been destroyed now, and villages that have been cut off from their sources of life.”
The rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=288845&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
““For the Israelis it is a “separation fence,” for the Palestinians - an “apartheid wall.” For the Israelis it is an ideal, for the Palestinians an existential threat. For most Israelis it is a magic solution to the dread of terrorism. For the Palestinians it is a profound fear. Once again, they don’t understand one another, two nations who don’t grasp the meaning of each other’s anxieties.”
I don’t mind calling it an apartheid wall. There is no inherent problem with “apartheid”, only with apartheid based on race or nationality or some such criteria. THIS apartheid wall is supposed to keep a hostile population away from its victims. And that is NOT the same as keeping blacks away from whites or vice versa. (Unless one argues that blacks are inherently dangerous, like Hamas.)
I am pretty sure the Israeli grasp the problems the wall creates for Palestinian Arabs. The Israelis just don’t care, because they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).
And I am also pretty sure that the Palestinian Arabs understand the wall. The terrorists certainly do, as they run into it.
The Palestinian Arabs are of course free to stop their fellow country men from attacking Israel. They have always had that option. They still do. But that option is never even discussed when the wall is being argued against, is it?
My issue was with the idea that groups that have a problem with Jews defending their lives are “human rights groups”. I have a problem with the idea that it is a “human right” to attack Jews. And I have a problem with the idea that that “human right” is worth more than my right to live.
The Palestinian Arabs should have thought of the problems a wall would bring BEFORE they made it necessary for Israel to build one. And you cannot tell me that the Intifadas did not enjoy popular support.
You can have your war and lose it. Or you can decide not to fight. But Israel will probably not allow them to win their war or to try again and again without losing anything.
“No, I was not very familiar with any of these human rights groups so it was their own assessment.”
If you are not familiar with them, you should degrade them to “groups”.
Why are you adding your credentials to their claim when you don’t know what their claim is based on?
Several white supremacist (my estimate) groups in America refer to themselves as “civil rights groups”. But you won’t see me repeat their claim unless I have actually seen them fight for sombody’s civil rights.
“So we should have waited for the Satanists to kill us all instead of shooting back? Is that your plan? Is that your alternative?” (in response to my 9/11 comment)
-I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous statement. I mean Israel and the US are two of the world’s superpowers…my country has the best intelligence and defense systems of any other country. Do you know how long the planning of 9/11 must have taken and how extensively it would have needed to be planned out? We’re talking years and years here! And even after that, I’m still amazed that they were somehow able to pull it off-i mean our government even recieved a notice that an attack was going to happen. hmm! We’re talking about two of the strongest countries in the world here and comparing them to, by comparison, a small (but growing) group of extremists. Perhaps the propaganda got to you. Do you still believe Iraq has WMD?
“America and Israel do not attack civilian structures, unless the terrorists hide in them. That doesn’t make America and Israel terrorists. It makes the terrorists war criminals (because it is forbidden to hide among civilians).”
I remember hearing one story of how a suspected terrorist was “rumored” to be dining at a restaurant in Iraq filled with civilians who obviously had no idea that this person was a terrorist. We bombed the entire building. If this sort of thing happened in Israel, you wouldn’t be angry?
This point may be hard for us to argue because I recognize the fact that I have been more lucky than I even know by being born in the US…but that definitely doesn’t make my life worth more than someone born in say Africa or the Middle East. They have family and friends as well. Why don’t we even count the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed since the occupation? Why didn’t we sign the treaty banning antipersonnel landmines-Horrific stories and pictures from all around the world (mostly the third world) show that it is mainly civilians who are the landmine casualties. Since there isn’t a landmine problem in the US, it isn’t our problem? Most importantly why is our policy when capturing “terrorists” overseas different than when they are captured in our own country? I can assure you that killing a buildingfull of people in the effort to kill one individual would not happen here but it is our policy overseas.
“-I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous statement [about shooting back]. I mean Israel and the US are two of the world’s superpowers”
Trust me, it seems less ridiculous when you are being transferred to Jerusalem because your university is under fire. Without shooting back, they wouldn’t have stopped.
And Israel is no super-power. The Arab alliances that attacked it so often might be more qualified.
“Do you still believe Iraq has WMD?”
Do you still believe that somebody proved that Iraq did not?
“I have been more lucky than I even know by being born in the US…but that definitely doesn’t make my life worth more than someone born in say Africa or the Middle East. They have family and friends as well.”
So if your life is not worth more than someone born in Africa, why is an Arab life worth more than a Jewish life?
Why exactly should Jews not defend themselves? Why is ending the conflict more important than Jewish lives? Why do the Jews have to end the conflict and not the terrorists?
“Why don’t we even count the number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed since the occupation?”
We do count them. But we also counted Saddam’s victims. The terrorists now murder fewer people than he did. But I can hardly blame the US for any of Saddam’s or the terrorists’ crimes.
Are you seeing a Sunni attack on a Shia mosque (or Hussainiya, I believe they call them), an act of war between the US and Iraq?
Are you seeing a conflict between Iraq and the US, even though US troops are in Iraq per the request of the elected Iraqi government?
Do you believe the terrorists are fighting for Iraq against the US even though the majority of Iraqis voted for a government that doesn’t want the terrorists but does want US help?
What’s the point you are trying to make?
“Perhaps the propaganda got to you. ”
No, it was the rockets. There is very little “propaganda” that tells me that these people want to kill me. Instead most newspapers didn’t even report about Hizbullah’s attacks on Israel until Israel fired back!
“The Palestinian Arabs are of course free to stop their fellow country men from attacking Israel. They have always had that option. They still do. But that option is never even discussed when the wall is being argued against, is it?”
-How? Please tell me. Then perhaps I can pass it on to the Palestinians.
“My issue was with the idea that groups that have a problem with Jews defending their lives are “human rights groups”. I have a problem with the idea that it is a “human right” to attack Jews. And I have a problem with the idea that that “human right” is worth more than my right to live.”
Back up here…whoever said it is a human right to attack Jews? I’m saying it’s illegal to kill innocent civilians no matter what the race, ethnicity, religion….i don’t ’see the connection? and i’ve never seen a human rights group support the killing of anyone. The human rights groups I know are composed of nonviolent and tolerant activists. I am involved with a few over in the US. Have you ever interacted with these civil rights groups you speak so knowingly about? And white supremacists? The only white supremacists I see are in charge of our government policies and are people who believe such things as this:
“they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).”
I can just call this group self-supremacists.
“So if your life is not worth more than someone born in Africa, why is an Arab life worth more than a Jewish life?”
Are you kidding me? Why do you not understand me at all? My best friend (and roommate) is Jewish. I have quite a few Jewish friends. I live in the US. We’re a diverse crowd here. I have friends of all different races and religions and my point is that we’re all friends and the differences between us is what makes our country so unique. I recently met an Israeli man and an Arab who were good friends. I loved it. Don’t push your racism onto me. Please.
“We do count them. But we also counted Saddam’s victims. The terrorists now murder fewer people than he did. But I can hardly blame the US for any of Saddam’s or the terrorists’ crimes.”
You might find this interesting:
July, 1991 The Financial Times of London reveals that a Florida chemical company had produced and shipped cyanide to Iraq during the 80’s using a special CIA courier. Cyanide was used extensively against the Iranians.
August, 1991. Christopher Droguol of Atlanta’s branch of Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is arrested for his role in supplying loans to Iraq for the purchase of military supplies. He is charged with 347 counts of felony. Droguol is found guilty, but US officials plead innocent of any knowledge of his crime.
June, 1992. Ted Kopple of ABC Nightline reports: “It is becoming increasingly clear that George Bush Sr., operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980’s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam’s Iraq into [an aggressive power].”
July, 1992. “The Bush administration deliberately, not inadvertently, helped to arm Iraq by allowing U.S. technology to be shipped to Iraqi military and to Iraqi defense factories… Throughout the course of the Bush administration, U.S. and foreign firms were granted export licenses to ship U.S. technology directly to Iraqi weapons facilities despite ample evidence showing that these factories were producing weapons.” Representative Henry Gonzalez, Texas, testimony before the House.
February, 1994. Senator Riegle from Michigan, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, testifies before the senate revealing large US shipments of dual-use biological and chemical agents to Iraq that may have been used against US troops in the Gulf War and probably was the cause of the illness known as Gulf War Syndrome.
August, 2002. “The use of gas [during the Iran-Iraq war] on the battle field by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern… We were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose”. Colonel Walter Lang, former senior US Defense Intelligence officer tells the New York Times.
“How? Please tell me. Then perhaps I can pass it on to the Palestinians.”
If they find it difficult to figure out how not to attack Israel, then I cannot explain it to them, perhaps.
“Back up here…whoever said it is a human right to attack Jews?”
The “human rights groups” that seem to criticise the wall as a violation of human rights without taking into account the human rights of those whose rights the wall effectively protects.
Apparently the Arabs’ human right to move freely and attack Jews is worth more than the Jews’ (and other Israelis’) right not to be attacked.
“I’m saying it’s illegal to kill innocent civilians no matter what the race, ethnicity, religion….i don’t ’see the connection? and i’ve never seen a human rights group support the killing of anyone.”
Well, Israelis have. They routinely discover “human rights groups” smuggling weapons for terrorist groups.
“The human rights groups I know are composed of nonviolent and
tolerant activists.”
Didn’t you say that you didn’t know much about the groups in question?
“I am involved with a few over in the US. Have you ever interacted with these civil rights groups you speak so knowingly about?”
No, but if I had been close to Gaza I might have been hit by one of the rockets they helped smuggling into the gaza strip. Does that count as “interaction”?
“And white supremacists? The only white supremacists I see are in charge of our government policies and are people who believe such things as this: “they have, inexplicably perhaps, decided that their lives are worth more (to them).””
Then perhaps you are looking for traits and find them where you want them to be? White supremacists tend to believe that the “white race” is superior to other races (including the Jews, incidentally). You will find many of them in the US, but they usually hate who is in charge of your government these days. You won’t find much love for George Bush among Klansmen, for example.
“I can just call this group self-supremacists.”
Call us what you will. I still believe that my life is worth more than Hizbullah’s ability to kill me and the lives of those who want to kill me.
If you consider your life to be as valuable as the life of somebody who wants to kill you, feel free to try to redirect Hizbullah’s wrath towards you. I don’t need it.
I don’t think that non-Israelis who try to stop somebody from killing them would be referred to as “self-supremacists” by you. Did you ever refer to anybody else shooting back as such?
When one tribe attacks another in the Congo, the second tribe shoots back, are they self-supremacists, or does that only apply to Israelis shooting back at Hizbullah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Sales_to_Iraq
As I said, I do not blame the US for Russian, Chinese, and French arms deals with Iraq.
Regards,
the self-supremacists who believes his life is worth more to himself than the life of those who want to see him dead (”proud self-supremacist”?).
“Are you kidding me? Why do you not understand me at all? My best friend (and roommate) is Jewish.”
Why do I not understand you? Perhaps because you keep telling me that shooting back is wrong (not realising, perhaps, that if Israel had not shot back, I might have died)?
Perhaps because you call me a “self-supremacist” and put me on the same level as white supremacists for considering my own life more valuable than the lives of those who want to kill me?
Perhaps because you call a group that believes that a hostile group’s freedom of movement is worth more than Jewish lives a “human rights group”?
Perhaps because you don’t know that many “human rights groups” have in the past smuggled weapons for terrorists, yet you believe you KNOW that they do not support the killing of innocent civilians (how do you know that?)?
My fear of death is not racism, you know. And if anybody else had thrown a rocket at me in any other country, I doubt you would even have thought such a thing even if somebody had stopped the attack violently.
Your best friend’s ethnicity or religion has nothing to do with this. This has to do with me having been a student at a university that was under fire not in spite of it being no military target but because it was a civilian structure with many young students. This has to do with Hizbullah and Hamas trying to kill as many Jews as possible and the idea that defending against them is somehow wrong, because their human shields might be killed.
My flatmates are a Hindu and a Christian. But that doesn’t mean anything. Why would it?
“Don’t push your racism onto me. ”
Very well. Whatever you consider racism…
I tell you what. “Racism” is what makes Hizbullah want to kill me. My wanting to see these terrorists dead when they try is NOT racism.
“Racism” is what makes you believe that the ethnicity or religion of your best friend is of any importance.
“Racism” is what triggers the idea that my will to survive at the expense of those who try to murder me is “self-supremacism”.
“Racism” is what makes people believe that a people who want to attack their neighbour deserve foreign aid that could be given to poor and harmless people instead.
“Racism” is what makes the UN discuss 9 civilian victims of Israel’s military whereas civilian Israeli victims of Arab terror are never an issue in the UN. (Or was there a special session about the victims of a terror attack ever?)
“Racism” is what allows Arab countries to attack Israel again and again, with the stated goal of destroying the fellow UN member.
That is what racism is. Have you ever seen it?
Had Hizbullah not attacked Israel, no Lebanese would have died at Israel’s hands.
Had Israel not reacted to Hizbullah’s attack, more Israelis would have died at Hizbullah’s hands.
If it was wrong to shoot back, it follows that the deaths of the Israelis are somehow more acceptable than the deaths of the Lebanese.
In that case I am wondering to whom they are more acceptable. Not to me, obviously. But is it racist that I don’t want to die?
Israellycool (www.israellycool.com) reports that:
“An Israeli woman has been killed, and an Israeli man has lost his legs, after palestinian terrorists fired Kassams at civilians in Sderot. The international community is in uproar, and a special UN Security Council resolution condemning the terrorist’s targeting of innocent civilians has been drafted. ”
The second sentence is striked-out, because it didn’t happen.
Safro, can you explain, in reasonable detail, why there has been international uproar and a special resolution about Israel accidentally killing Arab civilians, while there is none about this? Note that this was NOT an accident. The terrorist WANTED it to happen. It was his goal.
Was the woman a self-supremacist?
Safro -
Ye Gods… just listen to yourself. Israel, a nation with 6.5 million population living on a piece of land (80% of which is mountains and deserts) smaller than New Jersey, with no natural resources and almost no water, with a per-capita GDP ranking 32nd in the world and an absolute military strength (GFP rank) 26th in the world… is a super-power? On par with the USA?
You should stop believing the Protocols.
Oh, and WMDs were found (stocks of chemical weapons, with evidence of much more that were apparently smuggled to Syria). That is even if we ignore the fact (published even by the MSM) that Saddam was months away from a nuclear bomb. Perhaps the propaganda got to you…
And perhaps do some research rather than basing your statements on rumor and wild presumptions? If you want, I can E-mail you an English translation of the Al-Qaeda strategic plan (”The Management of Savagery: The Most Critical Stage Through Which The Umma Will Pass, by Abu Bakr Naji). It’s 268 pages long, but well worth the effort of reading it. It’s a good place to start.
How can the Palestinians stop their fellow countrymen from attacking Israel:
Well, they can start by not hiding, feeding, clothing and funding terrorists. They can also stop believing their Imams, their government hate propaganda. They can stop cheering every time a Jew is killed or wounded. They can stop lynching people - torturing them to death on the streets (fun for the whole family!) - for the crime of being suspect of not hating Israel. They can vote for a party with a platform not based on the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews. They can stop rioting, stop sending their children to throw rocks and molotov coctails on Jews. They can stop calling murderers “heroes” and “martyrs”.
It’s easy if they try.
According to the UN and Amnesty International (just off the top of my head) it’s a human right to kill Jews. Have a look at their statements and compare them to facts.
Yeah, I have seen your “nonviolent tolerant activists”… seen them brandishing guns, seen them willingly serving as human shields for terrorists, seen them attacking IDF soldiers, seen them smuggling explosives and weapons to terrorists. Lovely, peaceful people… when they’re sleeping.
You see white supremacists deciding USA policy? Condi Rice is a white supremacist, then? Is your brain actually processing the stuff coming out of you?
Lemme try a little moral dilemma on you:
A random guy with a gun aims it at your best friend. He has told you that he will kill you friend and then you. He has killed random people before - you’ve seen him do it. You have the option of blowing his brains out with the press of a button. What do you do?
“but you think that Iraqis are more free now?”
Yes. And if you read a lot of Iraqi blogs you might have read about the situation before the invasion. If you think the Iraqis were more free then, you have missed an awful lot of history. ”
I obviously cannot speak for Iraqis but here a couple of blog quotes I found quickly:
Treasure of Baghdad:
“After he was toppled, we were cautious but happy at the same time. We didn’t know that we were let down. My family was suspicious from the beginning. They finally told me about how Saddam was the US favorite puppet in 1980s. By the end of the war,video CDs and pictures of how Saddam was backed up by the Americans were seen everywhere in the streets and CD stores. The most famous picture was that of the criminal Rumsfeld shaking hand with Saddam offering his country’s support and his president’s regards.”
“When I said his era was better than this era, it doesn’t mean I want him back. It was a comparison to tell the people that what is going on now is worse than before where everything was almost bad as well. I always mention that because instead of one tyrant, we have multiple tyrants now whom are ALSO supported by the Americans. And please, do not tell me that Hakim, Barzani, Maliki, Jafari, and many others in the parliament and government are “the new good leaders” of Iraq. They are new leaders, right! But they are the NEW TYRANTS OF IRAQ. Yes! They were elected by the people but like Saddam, they let their people down AGAIN.”
“I am so desperate. I don’t know what would happen in the coming days. Everything positive has gone. Democracy and freedom killed every positive seed of hope inside our hearts. I hate Bush, I hate Blair, I hate all the American administration. They destroyed my country. They let thugs and thieves rule it.
Riverbend: http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
“Three years later and the nightmares of bombings and of shock and awe have evolved into another sort of nightmare. The difference between now and then was that three years ago, we were still worrying about material things- possessions, houses, cars, electricity, water, fuel… It’s difficult to define what worries us most now. Even the most cynical war critics couldn’t imagine the country being this bad three years after the war…”
“We literally do not know a single Iraqi family that has not seen the violent death of a first or second-degree relative these last three years. Abductions, militias, sectarian violence, revenge killings, assassinations, car-bombs, suicide bombers, American military strikes, Iraqi military raids, death squads, extremists, armed robberies, executions, detentions, secret prisons, torture, mysterious weapons – with so many different ways to die, is the number so far fetched?”
“And the world wonders how ‘terrorists’ are created! A 15-year-old Lebanese girl lost five of her siblings and her parents and home in the Qana bombing… Ehud Olmert might as well kill her now because if he thinks she’s going to grow up with anything but hate in her heart towards him and everything he represents, then he’s delusional.”
“Is this whole debacle the fine line between terrorism and protecting ones nation? If it’s a militia, insurgent or military resistance- then it’s terrorism (unless of course the militia, insurgent(s) and/or resistance are being funded exclusively by the CIA). If it’s the Israeli, American or British army, then it’s a pre-emptive strike, or a ‘war on terror’. No matter the loss of hundreds of innocent lives. No matter the children who died last night- they’re only Arabs, after all, right?”
“I read constantly analyses mostly written by foreigners or Iraqis who’ve been abroad for decades talking about how there was always a divide between Sunnis and Shia in Iraq (which, ironically, only becomes apparent when you’re not actually living amongst Iraqis they claim)… but how under a dictator, nobody saw it or nobody wanted to see it. That is simply not true- if there was a divide, it was between the fanatics on both ends. The extreme Shia and extreme Sunnis. Most people simply didn’t go around making friends or socializing with neighbors based on their sect. People didn’t care- you could ask that question, but everyone would look at you like you were silly and rude.”
“It’s not about the man- presidents come and go, governments come and go. It’s the frustration of feeling like the whole country and every single Iraqi inside and outside of Iraq is at the mercy of American politics. It is the rage of feeling like a mere chess piece to be moved back and forth at will. It is the aggravation of having a government so blind and uncaring about their peoples needs that they don’t even feel like it’s necessary to go through the motions or put up an act. And it’s the deaths. The thousands of dead and dying, with Bush sitting there smirking and lying about progress and winning in a country where every single Iraqi outside of the Green Zone is losing.”
Iraqi Konfused Kid:
“Four of my friends were killed by a huge double roadside bomb that exploded in Karada on Sunday June 11. That’s right, four, count them … that is, if you can identify their bodies. Forever gone — can you imagine that? Since you are all comfy in your air-conditioned rooms sitting on armchairs, sipping Pepsi or Kool-Aid or whatever it is that you care to sip while your sons and daughters go safely to colleges and your spouses sleep in bedrooms million miles away from here, I’d like to take the opportunity to offer what it feels like to be insane amidst the apocryphal hell of Iraq, both weather-wise and people-wise.”
“Nobody of sane mind can live here … We Iraqis have been so used to being kicked and dragged through the mud that we did not recognize the abyss in which we found ourselves. But there comes a time when you look around see your world for what it is and cannot take any more of it. I hate to be a whiner, but I tell you nothing but the absolute truth. Iraqis today are strange, sorry creatures — confused, constantly paranoid, and filled with distrust and hatred.”
Zappy:
“I feel like a different person, I am now an engulfed by fear & cowardness, I jump at the sound of a squeaking door, I feel like I’m half dead.”
“If you consider your life to be as valuable as the life of somebody who wants to kill you, feel free to try to redirect Hizbullah’s wrath towards you. I don’t need it.”
Actually, Andrew, they want to kill Safro too. They have stated so numerous times - “Death to America (Allah akbar)! Death to America (Allah akbar)!”
Nasrallah personally has assured the world repeatedly that we wants Americans dead almost as much as he wants the Jews dead.
Same goes for Hamas.
Safro is just lucky he lives too far away from ol’ Hassan Sayyed. Give it a bit of time, and Safro here will have the pleasure of watching mommy crawl on the floor without her legs, with a trail of blood behind her and looking somewhat pale in the face because a nice freedom fighter from HA decided to become a martyr.
This is useless. The Left lives in a fantasy world. Give them some success, it’ll literally blow up in their faces.
“Well, they can start by not hiding, feeding, clothing and funding terrorists.”
Yes, they could. But that option is never ever discussed.
“A random guy with a gun aims it at your best friend. He has told you that he will kill your friend and then you. He has killed random people before - you’ve seen him do it. You have the option of blowing his brains out with the press of a button. What do you do?”
If the random guy has so far only killed Jews, our protagonist might consider himself to be safe enough not doing anything. And as long the Jews fight back, he might never be in the situation where he is the target.
But if I were the protagonist and I know I will be the next target, as will my friend, I would have two options:
1. Stop the conflict by not shooting back. That would end the conflict within one minute.
2. Kill him.
This proud self-supremacist hopes he would kill at that point. I would judge the life of the random guy in the story to be worth less than my friend’s or mine.
I would never want to be a friend of somebody who would think differently in that situation!
“Actually, Andrew, they want to kill Safro too. They have stated so numerous times”
Fine, but I don’t care. He can have Hizbullah’s wrath at America and Hizbullah’s wrath at me. I don’t need it.
Maybe in him Hizbullah will find a target that doesn’t shoot back.
But I will value his life as more valuable than the life of his murderer. That much I owe him. I hope he will have a friend who thinks the same and has a gun when it comes to it. Or a government that thinks like that. The world cannot afford to lose too many Americans. We might still need them to wake up and help us (Europeans, in my case) out if we flip again.
I am not only a self-supremacist, I am also an any-other-target-supremacist.
Look, I condemn all of it…the killing of Israelis, the killing of Palestinians. I hate terrorism…I do plenty of research before I say things. I’m sorry for your people, I’m sorry for theirs….but I’m on the outside of the conflict. It is much easier for me to see that there are two sides to this conflict and there are innocent victims on both sides. The reason I stand up for Palestinians at times is because it is the underdog and is underrepresented where I am from.
And Condaleeza Rice might as well be white. She doesn’t represent the African American population of my country. I can tell you that for sure.
As for now, I should really get back to work…
“Look, I condemn all of it…the killing of Israelis, the killing of Palestinians. I hate terrorism…I do plenty of research before I say things. I’m sorry for your people, I’m sorry for theirs….”
I do not doubt your condemnation. But I do doubt your research. You didn’t seem to know much about the human rights groups you were referring to.
Either way, I am less sorry for the deaths of human shields of the attackers than I am for the deaths of the attacked. I always will be.
At some point the blame has to fall on those who want the deaths to happen. And that is not I or those who defend me.
Regards,
The Happy Self-Supremacist.
You are not on the outside of the conflict, Safro. 9/11 somehow failed to demonstrate this to you. Oh well. You’ll have plenty of other opportunities to realize this, I am afriad.
Yeah… the underdog… creed of the Left: stand up for the underdog, no matter who the underdog is. Even if the underdog is an underdog because it’s psychotically attacking someone with genocidal intent. North Korea. Pol Pot. North Vietnam. Hizballah. Palestinians. Mogadishu warlords.
And Rice is not supposed to represent the African American population of your country. She’s supposed to represent ALL of the population of your country. She does so at the best of her ability. Race doesn’t come into play here.
PS.
Let me guess… you’re white?
One more thing:
“A random guy with a gun aims it at your best friend. He has told you that he will kill your friend and then you. He has killed random people before - you’ve seen him do it. You have the option of blowing his brains out with the press of a button. What do you do?”
-I might shoot him, i might not. I would hope I would shoot him since yes I value my life and my friends more than the sorry excuse for a human being with a gun…but clearly the man (or woman) is a dispicable human being who couldn’t have much in the way of “loved ones” and that is why his life is worth less in my mind…but still i do not understand the legitimacy of this argument? I wish all terrorists and war criminals were locked up for life (which i feel is more of a punishment than death)…really i do! So why don’t you try making a valid argument? Or reread my comments-maybe you misunderstand?
You are not on the outside of the conflict, Safro. 9/11 somehow failed to demonstrate this to you. Oh well. You’ll have plenty of other opportunities to realize this, I am afriad.
I’m neither an Israeli or a Palestinian. I would say this makes me more objective in my assessment of both groups than either of you. Am I right?
“And Rice is not supposed to represent the African American population of your country. She’s supposed to represent ALL of the population of your country. She does so at the best of her ability. Race doesn’t come into play here. ”
hahahaha Bush’s approval rating in my country is 31%!!!! 31%!! Does it sound like his administration represents the entire population. Yes i’m white, and about 50% of my friends are African American. I play capoeira which is closely correlated with hip hop culture, both of which rose out of African American oppression in Brazil and the US respectively.
“I might shoot him, i might not. I would hope I would shoot him since yes I value my life and my friends more than the sorry excuse for a human being with a gun…”"
Aha. But if I feel the same, I am a self-supremacist and somehow wrong? Why is that?
“but clearly the man (or woman) is a dispicable human being who couldn’t have much in the way of “loved ones” and that is why his life is worth less in my mind…”
I agree. I just think that also applies to Hizbullah when they try to kill Israelis.
“So why don’t you try making a valid argument?”
What constitues a valid argument in your view?
“Or reread my comments-maybe you misunderstand?”
You called me a self-supremacist for thinking what you just admitted you think too. And you called me a racist for having these thoughts. You put me on par with white supremacists for preferring my would-be killers dead.
What was there to misunderstand?
Your “under-dog” is trying to kill me. If you don’t support terrorism, please do not support those who do. If they are the under-dog, it means something is going right.
“I’m neither an Israeli or a Palestinian. I would say this makes me more objective in my assessment of both groups than either of you. Am I right?”
No.
It makes you, perhaps, less knowledgeable.
I am neither an Israeli nor a Palestinian Arab. What makes me objective is probably nothing, especially not my nationality.
But my affiliation with Israel makes me a target. And if Israel didn’t exist, I would still be a target.
People draw swastikas on our synagogue once. Do the supporters of my cause draw our symbols on mosques or churches? I don’t think so.
Africans in Brazil and African Americans in the US that is…typo! oops!
“Yes i’m white, and about 50% of my friends are African American.”
That is utterly unimportant. Raccoon only asked you if you were white because you made several statements which seemed to imply that you thought skin colour was of some importance, somehow.
I don’t think it is, and I believe neither does Raccoon.
As for Israelis and “Palestinians”: They have their local opinion and have to see that the world doesn’t care when Jews die but protests when Arabs die. No wonder Israelis believe that they are alone against the world while “Palestinians” believe they are on the right way.
I will believe that the world judges the situation on its merits once the UN has the same number of sessions about Israel as about any other conflict in the world, and once the UN publishes the same number of resolutions for each innocent victim of either side (not counting “martyrs” as victims, obviously, and not counting human shields as “innocent”, because using human shields and being one is a war crime, at least when the strategy is used against non-Jews).
Safro,
Perhaps you did not realise this.
I am not an Israeli. I have only been in Israel once, during the last war, as a student in Haifa. I came there to study Hebrew, which I did (because Israel moves staff and students to other cities when a university is under attack). not because I heeded Hassan Nasrallah’s call to all relevant people to come to die at his hands.
I am a German citizen and I live in Ireland.
I might become an Israeli, if the country and its people still exist in five years…
This is I: http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/iWeb/Home/About%20Me.html
“Aha. But if I feel the same, I am a self-supremacist and somehow wrong? Why is that?”
I already explained this a million times. Human worth is not dependent on race, sex, religion etc…If I were to pull the trigger it would be to prevent the suffering of my family and friends who yes I feel a great deal more love for than the gunman. I called you a self-supremacist because you are willing to kill innocent bystanders in order to kill the one individual who is aiming at you. Your enemies include the nonviolent civilians who are of the same race, religion, or region as those who are doing the killing.
“I called you a self-supremacist because you are willing to kill innocent bystanders in order to kill the one individual who is aiming at you.”
And you would actually let the random guy shoot your friend and you if he were to hide behind a fourth person?
“Your enemies include the nonviolent civilians who are of the same race, religion, or region as those who are doing the killing.”
What’s the point of non-violent civilians who want me dead and support those who kill me? Why are their lives worth more than mine?
I do feel a great deal more love for me and those who don’t want me dead. Why shouldn’t I?
My enemies are those who want to kill me and those who support them. It has nothing to do with race, religion, or region. I have no idea why you keep bringing that up. It seems to have meaning to you, I don’t understand it.
Safro,
Not all Arabs want Jews dead. Not all Muslims want Jews dead. Not all people in a certain region think like that either. I have no idea why you would think that race, religion, or region define my “enemy”.
My “enemy” is the group who want to kill Jews and those who help and support them; those who let themselves be used as human shields; those who call themselves “human rights groups” while giving my enemies weapons; and, to a lesser extent, those who comdemn Israel’s attempts to protect me from these people and those who tell me that killing the attacker or the people who help him in self-defence is just as bad as attacking to kill me.
I do not want to be told that my life is not more valuable than the life of somebody who wants me dead. Don’t you get that?
Okay I’m peacing out of this discussion for real. I’m at work and I really do have a job to do!! Just remember that violence begets violence and so on and so on…
I hope the violence in Israel does stop someday soon. I really do. Take care of yourselves…
Amy
“Just remember that violence begets violence and so on and so on…”
That’s not true.
If Israel allowed the terrorists to finish their work, the violence would be over, and violence would have brought peace.
And if Israel shoots back, the violence of the terrorists ends. And again violence has stopped violence.
Where did you learn that violence begets violence? Seems to me like it’s more a cliche than a self-evident truth.
*sigh*
The tricky question for the race-troubled: are you white?
Whenever the answer starts including numbers of black friends, one gets suspicious. This is the answer usually given by racists and people trying very hard not to appear racist. Why bother? What’s race got to do with it? People need the same things regardless of race. Especially people someone wants dead because of their national affiliation (hint: Americans). Only a very deluded person can somehow link American policy to racial supremacism… sorry, mate. What Andrew said. “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”.
And skin color is vitally important, especially if you’re in Israel. The whiter you are, the stronger sunscreen you need. Ignoring this simple rule is a good way to get skin cancer
Andrew - if we don’t exist in 5 years, not much else will. But at least Israelis’ll have front-row seats for the Apocaypse
PS
Sorry for being a vicious Raccoon. It’s the rabies, y’know.
haha you can be vicious all you want. Either way, I’m not the issue here and you’re not offending me. I’ll still wish you well.
Safro -
Good
The “violence begets violence” thing comes from Yoda.
It also flies in the face of all evidence (WWII is a good example).
I heard it first in an Ani Difranco song. You’re right, eventually the fighting always stops but I think that is taking the quote way too literally. My interpretation is that habitually a human being responds to violence with violence. We are not taught to deal with our own anger and rage (or what I would consider passive violence). It is this passive violence that triggers physical violence and the only way to change this cycle is with non-violence. Another example, children who grow up sorrounded by violence will naturally learn that violence is the solution to violence…
“It is this passive violence that triggers physical violence and the only way to change this cycle is with non-violence.”
Yes, but as I said, it is not obvious to me that ending the “cycle” is a good thing. The cycle of violence would have ended if Israel had, perhaps, not fought back in one of the wars launched against her.
But I cannot say that I like that prospect. Ending violence for the sake of ending violence doesn’t seem very clever to me.
“Another example, children who grow up sorrounded by violence will naturally learn that violence is the solution to violence…”
And they are right. But it depends on whether the violence in question is an attack or a reaction.
For example, another attack will trigger another reaction; and violence begets violence, in this case.
But refraining from reacting does never lead to a stop of attacks.
You can tell Israel that violence begets violence, but it doesn’t help.
It’s the attackers you have to convince, not Israel.
I’m an engineer-I can count. From what I can tell there are two attackers.
a retaliation is still an attack.
“I’m an engineer-I can count. From what I can tell there are two attackers.”
And now look at Hizbullah attacking Israel for years and hiding their rocket launchers among civilians and tell me how many attackers that makes and how you would take them out without arming their willing human shields.
“a retaliation is still an attack.”
I support absolutely anything that makes these people stop trying to kill me. I don’t care about how violent it is.
I like my life.
I came across this in another blog…so from the perspective of an Arab American: (in response to Jimmy Carter’s new book on Israel:Palestine)
http://myoccupation.blogspot.com/index.html
“Apartheid is the worst word one can use against Israel and stay within the boundaries of legitimacy. Using analogies to Nazi Germany - as some anti-Israel activists have done in the past - is unacceptable. Using words like Occupation is not strong enough to earn any attention. Carter pushed the envelope just a little bit futher, but got the effect he wished to have: Anger, controversy, political turmoil, hurt feelings. Arguing about Apartheid is pointless. There is enough material evidence to prove that apartheid exists in the occupied territories in one form or another. If you argue about the use of this word, you lose. If you argue that Israel is blameless you also lose.”
Safro -
Let’s cut to the chase. Suggestions, please. What d’you think Israel should do?
Oh, and quoting avowed psychotic antisemites on issues involving Jews… well, let’s just say it doesn’t exactly earn you any brownie points.
Violence, BTW, not a negative thing. Basic psychology. Creation is violent. Imposition of your will is violent.
Ahimsa can work in very specific situations. This ain’t one of them.
It amazes me every time. The world is rushing towards a nuclear annihilation. There are millions of people who want YOU dead for being you. There are millions of other people who just want to enslave you. These millions of people are implacable, merciless and determined. They place no value on life. They worship death. Their numbers are growing daily. And yet people continue to hope that somehow, if we’re just nice enough, the bad people will discover their inner serves and all will be sunshine and fluffy bunnies and unicorns.
The world doesn’t work this way. Again, it will be interesting to see the reaction of these people (and you, Safro) when your world becomes pain and fear. Because of a conflict you think you have no part in.
“avowed psychotic antisemites”
-I have a lot of work to do right now but that is an incredibly racist assumption you’ve just made there.
This is not an assumption. It’s an observation.
And please stop being so obsessed with race…
“The world doesn’t work this way. Again, it will be interesting to see the reaction of these people (and you, Safro) when your world becomes pain and fear. Because of a conflict you think you have no part in.”
And please, don’t put words in my mouth. I definitely never said I have no part in this conflict-it very much effects the world I live in. The world doesn’t revolve around you. Not everyone is out to get Israel just because they have different interpretations on how to end this conflict. Look at the bigger picture.
“And please stop being so obsessed with race… ”
This is a joke coming from you. Thank you for the good laugh
Is it? Good to know.
Sorry… change that line to “Because of a conflict you think you are outside of.”
And I would love to hear what you think Israel should do.
You guys have too much hate in your hearts to even argue or reason with…not saying I necessarily blame you but it is sad…sometimes you have to look outside of yourself to really see the truth. Not saying what I say is the truth either. I’m no expert.
Uhm. Was that what you think Israel should do or a general observation?
I never pretended to know what Israel should do. I don’t consider myself knowledgeable enough to make such an assertion. My government sides with Israel in this conflict…the government controls the media so trust me I’ve read quite a bit about the conflict to realize there are humanitarian crises on both sides.
I think this conflict has a huge impact on the world…but since I am neither Israeli or Palestinian and reside outside both territories yes my perspective is different than yours. So again, please stop speaking for me.
“the government controls the media”
Does it? So why are the media so anti-Israel?
“there are humanitarian crises on both sides.”
Nobody doubts that. I think the Israelis are just sick of being blamed for it.
“This is a joke coming from you. ”
Is it? What did he say about race? The only one who constantly talks about race is YOU. Raccoon and I never cared about it. I don’t even understand it.
“Arguing about Apartheid is pointless. There is enough material evidence to prove that apartheid exists in the occupied territories in one form or another. ”
Is there? Can he give examples? Is there anything that cannot be explained by the strained relationship between occupied and occupier and can only be explained with racism?
You people are quick to accuse others of racism, yet it is always you who pay any attention to the subject of race.
Have you noticed that I put the word “Palestinian” in quotes whenever I use it? I do it because a Palestinian, to me, is an inhabitant of Palestine, regardless of race or religion.
I refuse to acknowledge the definition of “Palestinian” which is accepted by many, which seems to be a “non-Jewish inhabitant of Palestine”. That definition is racist, and I refuse to acknowledge it.
You can call me a racist, but I still won’t acknowledge race as having any significance.
You can call me a self-supremacist, but I will still believe that the life of the attacked is worth more than the life of the attacker (which incidentally you see the same way, when the attacked is you and not Israelis).
You can call me anything you like, but you will probably always find that I am either the opposite of what you accuse me of being or that I am exactly like you.
And if you don’t know what Israel should do, stop pretending that you have any right to tell Israel that what she is currently doing is wrong. At least Israel tries to protect lives. Your criticism of her methods will only cost lives in the long run, if enough people listen to you.
Israel can either fight back or die. And to tell Israel not to fight back is the same as telling Israel to die. Israel has no third choice. Hizbullah will NOT stop trying to kill Jews just because the Jews don’t shoot back. The assumption is ridiculous. Can you not at least believe Nasrallah when he explains his strategy?
I think we’re developing a miscommunication here. Must be the language barrier.
I merely asked a question regarding the purpose of your statement (the one about hate). I honestly fail to see how it amounts to speaking for you… am I missing something?
Another question: in the “hate” statement, whom do you refer to when you say “you”?
And lastly… the USA government controlling the media? Are you sure about that?
It kind of goes against anything I know about the USA media… and never in my university Journalism studies or my extensive independent research have I found any evidence of government control of media in the USA. If anything, it’s the opposite: the media in the West is an unchecked Fourth Estate with all the power and none of the responsibilities of the other three. I have seen no evidence against this regarding the USA… would you care to elaborate?
According to the (extremely biased) report of RSF, freedom of press in the USA ranks 56th in the world, mostly due to demands that journalists reveal their sources when they print classified information and such.
Freedom House classifies USA’s press as “free” (see here for more information).
We are both talking about the same United States of America, right?
BTW, there is no humanitarian crisis in Israel as I understand the term. There’s just war, which of course can be seen as a humanitarian crisis. We’re very good at surviving, had lots of practice.
Cool, I just woke up to find this post hit 120+ comments.
Safro (or Amy) you better keep coming back. Reading the discussion is a lot of fun I tell ya.
BTW check this. I think it’s you’re kinda thing… http://gnblog.com/
Andrew and Raccoon, you guys SURE don’t get tired…
Andrew and Raccoon = Defenders of Israel on the blogosphere.
the only thing missing here is Twosret
Whoa, Drima, me and Twosret on the same thread means that within 10 comments, tops, the whole thing deteriorates to pathetic ad-hominem attacks (with Twosret making up lies about me and me trying to convince her to seek professional help).
While amusing, it’s not very interesting or stimulating.
Thanks for the ht on gnblog - looks interesting, I’ll check it out
The bias of our mainstream (probably should have added that in before) media is pretty well known? Luckily we have independent media as well which is not controlled by the corporation. (And you must be aware of the ties between the corporations and the government) Whether it is television, radio, newspapers, magazines, books or the Internet, a few giant conglomerates are determining what we see, hear and read. And the situation is likely to become much worse as a result of radical deregulation efforts by the Bush administration and some horrendous court decisions.
“Fox News Channel is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a right-wing Australian who already owns a significant portion of the world’s media. His network has close ties to the Republican Party, and among his “fair and balanced” commentators is Newt Gingrich.
NBC is owned by General Electric, one of the largest corporations in the world — and one with a long history of anti-union activity. GE, a major contributor to the Republican Party, has substantial financial interests in weapons manufacturing, finance, nuclear power and many other industries. Former CEO Jack Welch was one of the leaders in shutting down American plants and moving them to low-wage countries like China and Mexico.
ABC is owned by the Disney Corp., which produces toys and products in developing countries where they provide their workers atrocious wages and working conditions.
CBS is owned by Viacom, another huge media conglomerate that owns, among other entities, MTV, Showtime, Nickelodeon, VH1, TNN, CMT, 39 broadcast television stations, 184 radio stations, Paramount Pictures and Blockbuster Inc.”
“Market Censorship” — that is, mainstream media does not want to run stories that will offend their advertisers and owners. In this way, the media end up censoring themselves and not reporting on many important issues, including corporate practices. The number one goal of a corporation is the make money not to inform the public…
Hey Drima! I’ll be sure to keep checking your blog! I really have to stop posting comments on this thread though…i’ve hardly done any work in two days!
thanks Safro, keep checking Mideast Youth too if u can… Cheers
Safro -
Uhm, yeah, the bias of the American MSM is well known. With the notable exception of Fox, it’s biased in favor of the extreme left and anything that might harm Bush in any way.
Corporations are not the government. There are as many agendas as there are corporations; corporation-owned news services tend to reflect the particular agenda of every corporation, usually by omission.
Oh, and rule #1 of journalism is… “News exist to make money, not inform the public”.
Trust me on this - what the media reports seldom reflects reality. Everything that can be spun is spun; everything that can twisted is twisted. I am talking about free media here, as in USA and Israel. These people sell stories… and life is not stories.
Ah, NM, I’ll check myself before I go into a rant about media, stories, and systematic crippling of reality
My roommate and I had a good laugh about your last comment. Apparently you know our country better than us!!! Left compared to what? All I know is that a left leaning media could never make a pretty penny in this country if the government doesnt approve of what it is dishing out! Do the math.
Safro -
I take particular care to observe various major media outlets. Admittedly, I am more focused on various newspapers (TV news are by definition horrid) - the only American TV news network I observe is CNN.
I find your statements… peculiar. Again, this does not correspond to anything that is being reported by various (international) NGOs watching and measuring the media.
The media coporations make money because people want to read/watch/hear whatever it is the media says. Where does government come into play here?
Again, we seem to be speaking of two different US of As here. You seem to live in some sort of a brutal and oppressive police state, while I speak of the country most everyone else looks up to as a paragon of freedom.
Interesting. Regards to your roommate.
PS
Since USA is the greatest superpower of our times (and probably in history), I take a fair bit of interest in it. Which means lots of research. Although it’s a vested interest, so to speak - much of my family lives there and I am likely to spend much of my time there as well.
Come on… one more comment after this and we’ll hit 140 comments… Wohooo this post has gone plantinum…
Raccoon, maybe we’ll actually end up meeting in America one day. You never know man.
Drima -
I’d have hoped we could meet in Israel or Sudan… but maybe USA may have to do.
If we all live long enough, which I find somewhat doubtful.
Ooops, I just broke the 140 threshold
Hehehehehe
Israel??!!
Ya sure maybe when my government gets rid of that “All countries EXCEPT Israel” thingy on my passport… When that happens I’ll defintely come… I’d love to see it.
Poopa Majoma?
Exactly what I mean. You have no idea how frustrating it is, having to avoid even FLYING over certain states. Lebanon is a couple of hours drive away, with beautiful landscapes and historical sites that make me drool just at the thought of them… Syria… Iran… Iraq…
I don’t even drive to see Jordan or Egypt (well, except for Sinai) because it’s just too damn risky.
*sigh*
Stupid hunams.
PS
Why ain’t you studying? And what time is it for you, anyway? It’s almost 6 in the morning here
2 hours studying, one hour break online… dats my system… over here it’s almost 12pm
Heh, I remember them Uni days
Good luck with your studies, man. And good night
Raccoon…that’s a bit dramatic the whole “brutal and oppressive police state” bit. You said yourself media is biased b-c the goal is profit. As I said before I’m thankful to have been born in this country b-c i do have a lot of freedom and opportunities. But I will be critical of what I love. I’m willing to fight and speak out for what I believe is right.
the crazy thing about this country though is that much of the American population if asked about the Israel/Palestinian conflict will just go “huh?” Ask them something about Justin Timberlake on the other hand….I have trouble even finding people who will discuss the happenings of the world with me!! It’s a good thing for modern technology so I can go online and have discussions with people from all around the world! eh, we may have very different viewpoints but it’s pretty damn cool we can even have this argument…
Safro -
I’m just worried that a) as you said, too many people are just damned ignorant. Should be a crime for a citizen of THE superpower. b) those who are not ignorant have the strange tendency to fight for the wrong causes in the wrong ways.
Like, uhm, blaming USA government for 9/11 (bloody psychos). Or bashing Bush for anything and everything. Or trying to cut and run in Iraq. Or bashing USA for fighting back against Islamists in the first place.
Or, indeed, claiming that the government has control over the media
I’m something of a history buff. And it seems to me that what fell mighty empires and threw the world into a Dark Age - time and time again - is stupidity coupled with complacency… or stupidity coupled with pointless internal bickering over nothing. And there is always plenty of stupidity to go around, everywhere.
The funny thing is that America - and all of the West - is at war. At war with a truly bloody horrible enemy that will stop at nothing… until you’re all dead or enslaved, and everything the West has achieved is ruined.
And the West just kind of continues to ignore it, and continues to bicker, continues to be complacent.
I love the Western civilization. I’d hate it (along with a few billion people) to go down the drain.
Oh well.
Time for this Raccoon to sleep. G’night.
http://www.israellycool.com/blog/_archives/2006/11/15/2502716.html
This is probably not relevant, but the Israeli woman who was killed was apparently a Muslim married to a Jew.
This has been reported in Israel, of course. The world will never know.
Raccoon,
We are human beings and we have free will. We’re all going to have different oppinions on things. It doesn’t make your opinion OR mine right or wrong. My beliefs reflect my values and my personal experiences, which are likely vastly different than yours-and my argument with you and Andrew Brehm has only strengthened my convictions. You are on one side of a conflict. You rightly so have a lot of built up anger for your people but anger can be blind especially when you cannot put a human face on your enemy.
You’re right that we do have a problem with extremists…and not just muslim extremists. (Oklahoma city bombing anyone?) We are making more of an enemy out of Muslim extremists and contributing to their recruits by carelessly killing civilians in our invasions of places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Each time we kill a civilian in our “war on Terror” without even a sorry, we are creating a network of anti-americans out of their family members and friends. Look at your own anger for your own people. And of course there is our support for Israel. The US is losing more and more of its support overseas. The US has rarely been more divided from its closest friends in Europe and Asia.
If you are such a history buff, why don’t you read a little about the history of the US and our self serving interventions overseas. Many of the world’s most repressive dictators and tyrants/torturers/killers have been friends of America-as long as they served our interests. (Suharto of Indonesia, Sani Abacha of Nigeria, Chiang Kai-Shek of Taiwan, Park Chung Hee of South Korea, Hugo Banzer of Bolivia, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, Ngo Dihn Diem of Vietnam, P.W. Botha of South Africa and the list goes on and on) They may rise to power through bloody ClA-backed coups and rule by terror and torture. Their troops may receive training or advice from the CIA and other US agencies. US military aid and weapons sales often strengthen their armies and guarantee their hold on power. Some of the worst cases of U.S. support for repression have not remained unchallenged, leading to reversals in U.S. policy on Vietnam, Central America, South Africa, and East Timor. In these cases, grass roots movements supportive of peace and justice grew to a point where liberal members of Congress, in the media and elsewhere, joined in the call to stop U.S. complicity in the repression.
And you better believe our support of Israel is self serving as well. The reason I said Israel is a superpower before is because it has US military backing-you’re right thought, on your own I would fear for you!! The state of Israel is an isolated country heavily dependent on the United States for its survival. This dependence allows Washington to use the country to further its interests in the Middle East - interests such as preventing any independent Middle Eastern power from becoming a regional hegemon. A primary interest of the US in the Middle East is a stable oil supply with depressed oil prices. And the list goes on…
“by carelessly killing civilians in our invasions of places such as Iraq and Afghanistan.”
That’s simply not true. If you read the news you will find that it is terrorists who kill the civilians, with very little involvement of American or British troops.
It is being reported AS IF it was was somehow the troops’ fault, but the actual stories always make it clear who bombed the mosque etc..
What we need is a change of the reporting, not a change of what we do.
Our troops are already not carelessly killing civilians, although people think they are (Irish left-wingers believe that American aircraft fly from Ireland to Iraq to bomb Iraqis!). There is not much we can do to change things here.
It is the propaganda we have to fight, but not by changing our behaviour but by punishing those who lie.
When the Nazis claimed that the Jews wanted to destroy Germany, the Jews have tried to be more friendly. That DIDN’T help! What did help was killing the damn Nazis.
“You rightly so have a lot of built up anger for your people but anger can be blind especially when you cannot put a human face on your enemy.”
If you want to put a human face on the terrorists, go ahead.
But that doesn’t make you a better human being.
What it does do is tell us that you see those that want to kill us as perfectly normal human beings. And that is exactly our fear: that people believe that attempted genocide is perfectly “human” behaviour if the target are Jews.
It is only when people start to realise that there is no humanity in wanting to murder other people, that the conflict can be solved without further deaths.
You can make a start, here and now. Or you can remain and believe that there is a “human face” on murdering Jews.
It’s your choice.
Don’t worry, my views have nothing to do with the media…I know enough not to listen to the news! The mainstream media is complete fluff compared to news in the other parts of the world…so americans can go on worrying more about what’s going on in hollywood than what’s going on in the world. What does the rest of the world have to do with them (they may think)? After all, the United States of America has never had to fight a war within its borders (aside from the Civil war) and the events of 9/11 which probably should have changed ignorance within our borders more than it did!
So the question is…are we really careful enough?
In the past when the United States has been involved in wars, we have considered the targeting of civilians as a legitimate tactic in order to achieve military objectives. Hanoi was targeted during the Viet Nam war as part of Operation Rolling Thunder. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targeted in Japan during World War II, during which various German cities were targeted for indiscriminate bombing as well. During the American Civil War, civilians were extensively targeted. Civilians are generally targeted as a means of disrupting societies, cultures, and economies in order to make a country’s war machine less effective.
Nowadays we have “precision weapons.” But it looks to me like we’re still creating quite a few enemies: In early December (2001), a 2,000 pound “smart” bomb killed 3 American special forces soldiers, injured nineteen others and dozens of anti-Taliban soldiers. The same bomb also narrowly missed killing Hamid Karzai, the American-approved Afghan leader selected as chairman for the interim administration in Afghanistan. On October 21, 2001, the casualty rate peaked with the bombing of a hospital and mosque in Herat. The 200 bed hospital, used for both military and civilian patients, was reportedly not the target; the target was 300 feet away. Approximately 100 bodies were found among the wreckage. On the same day, over 20 people (including 9 children) died when the tractor trailer used by several families to flee Tarin Kut was bombed (similar to an event on October 24); a stray bomb in the Parod Gajadad district of Khair Khana destroyed two homes; in another district of Khair Khana, 18 people were killed when 17 homes were destroyed by a bomb that missed a military base by 1/2 mile (800 m); 5 people from Kabul’s Kaluezaman Khan neighborhood were killed; an 8 year old girl was killed in Macroyan, Kabul; 23 people were killed in the village Thori; 11 people were killed in Tarin Kut; and 3 were killed in Kandahar city…honestly this list can go on and on and on…check wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_U.S._invasion_of_Afghanistan
How about Kosovo?… Only 2 percent of the unguided, “dumb” bombs used by the British air force could be confirmed as having hit their targets. There was only a 72 percent hit rate with its “smart” bombs.
If an attack comes and Americans become “collateral damage,” or worse, “intentional targets selected for the purpose of disrupting society and the economy,” what will be our response? Will it be similar to our response to civilian deaths in Iraq? Will we be willing to accept those deaths as a consequence of “living in a war zone?” How will we differentiate the actions of barbarians from those of legitimate warriors, since our President has given them the context which they desired, and turned our homes into a legitimate battlefield?
I don’t sympathize with terrorists-they aren’t even human in my eyes. But I do sympathize with the Palestinian civilians. I have said this before-please please don’t make me say it again! There IS a difference.
“I don’t sympathize with terrorists-they aren’t even human in my eyes.”
So stop pretending that we are somehow bad people for refusing to see a “human face” where there isn’t one.
“But I do sympathize with the Palestinian civilians.”
And I would sumpathize with them if they
a) didn’t vote for the terrorists
and
b) would not support the terrorists and guard them
A civilian who allows himself to be used a human shield is not a civilian, not according to international law (unless, of course, the enemy is Israel, but internal law does not state that, it’s just implied, I guess).
And a civilian who wants to kill me but lets other people do his work is hardly very “human”.
If any Palestinian Arabs do not want to kill me, they can say so; they can protest on the streets, they can vote for non-genocidal parties, they can help Israel, they have lots of options.
I have met Palestinian Arabs who did not want to kill me. They did say so. They did not vote for Hamas. It is possible.
Safro -
Thing is, there isn’t much anger or hate among the Israelis towards the Palestinians. There is mainly exasperation, a sense that we did everything humanly possible to stop the violence and they just shat on everything. That’s the general feeling - your average Israeli, to the best of my knowledge, sees the Palestinians as a group as psychotic barbarians who just destroy everything - like mean-spirited children with guns.
*shrugs*
Maybe I am wrong in my analysis of what your average Israeli feels. But that seems to be the gist of things.
My theory is that the violence is going to continue as long as the occupation of Palestine continues. I’m just saying, if I lived in the conditions in which Palestinians are forced to live in (see my first post for details) i can assure you I would not be much of a supporter of my occupier…wouldn’t make me a terrorist or a terrorist supporter but yes I would have some pretty intense feelings against the state that took away my freedom and hope.
“My theory is that the violence is going to continue as long as the occupation of Palestine continues.”
That theory is wrong.
The violence already happened before the occupation ever started or, in fact, before Israel even existed. To claim that the occupation causes it you have to ignore the only evidence you have that could prove your theory.
Also, your theory would imply that stopping the occupation would end the violence. That was clearly not the case in southern Lebanon (violence increased) and Gaza (violence increased, even among the population in Gaza).
How did you come up with the theory? Did you observe the facts or did it sound nice?
I agree, however, that the violence will continue as long as the occupation does. I just disagree with the implication that it will end if the occupation ends. My theory is that it will be worse. I base this theory on the following evidence:
1. Before the occupation Israel was the victim of several major wars meant to destroy the country. Since the occupation it is much quieter.
2. When the occupation of southern Lebanon ended, violence increased.
3. When the occupation of Gaza ended, violence increased, including among the people living there.
My solution is thus to keep the occupation going whenever possible, for the sake of Israelis and enemy civilians. The enemy has made it totally clear that that is the better solution and that he will attack Israel and his own people if given the freedom to do so.
(I was for the withdrawal from Gaza. I was proven wrong by its population.)
“I would have some pretty intense feelings against the state that took away my freedom and hope.”
I grew up under foreign occupation. I don’t have any pretty intense feelings against the occupier.
Of course, we did not try to kill them all, and they did not have to stop us from trying that.
It’s possible.
“But it looks to me like we’re still creating quite a few enemies”
As long as we are free and rich in spite of ignoring all the laws that the Satanists believe we must follow to please their false god, we will create many enemies all the time.
“That theory is wrong.”
Haha my theory was shot down! But it looks to me like you actually agreed with me.
I never implied that ending the occupation would end the conflict did I? So in that respect I agree with you-I understand the conflict goes way deeper than that.
Sooo is this where the violence began?
“After World War II, Britain was unable to maintain control over Palestine and transferred responsibility to the United Nations (UN). The UN decided that the only means of resolving the escalating conflict between Jews and Arabs was to partition the land into two states. Although Jews constituted only one-third of the population and owned less than 7 percent of the land, the UN partition plan assigned 55 percent of Palestine’s territory to the Jewish state. In March 1948, Zionist forces launched major operations throughout Palestine. Their attacks were brutal. Through terror, psychological warfare, and direct conquests, Palestine was dismembered, many of its villages destroyed, and many of its people expelled as refugees.”
Also, would you mind elaborating on “I grew up under an occupation?” I’m just curious. What was it like?
There have been many “occupations” throughout history and each one is its own situation.
Safro, where did you find that text? It seems to leave out the beginning of the story, as many Arab sources often do.
For example, the Arab attack on the new state in November 1947 is not mentioned, merely the Jewish reaction several months later. Yes, “Zionist” (aka Israeli) forces launched major operations throughout “Palestine”. Of course they did. The country was under attack by several other countries and huge parts of its own populations decided not to defend their new country but rather to join the attackers and kill the Jews. “Their attacks were brutal”: of course they were. The Jews were fighting for their life.
The UN assigned 55% to the half of cisjordan Palestine that had a slight Jewish majority. All of transjordan Palestine was already Arab. and 45% of the rest was forbidden for Jews too.
“Palestine was dismembered”: of course it was. Does anybody seriously believe that the Jews would not have used the oppourtinity to get rid of the same people who just tried to murder them?
You are naive, Safro, and you tend to blame the Jews. Or why would you list a March 1948 offensive as an example of the injustice when that offensive was simply the result of a November 1947 attack meant to destroy the country?
From Wikipedia:
“Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. The Arab Higher Committee immediately ordered a violent three-day strike on Jewish civilians, attacking buildings, shops, and neighborhoods, and prompting counter-attacks organized by underground Jewish militias like the Lehi and Irgun. These attacks soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first “phase” of the 1948 War of Independence.”
It’s interesting how you turned a violent three-day Kristallnacht ordered by the Arabs against Jewish civilians into an Israeli crime! It only requires leaving out the Kristallnach and waiting for the Jews to react so you could point at them. Why? I don’t think that’s what you wanted. You were just looking for a point and didn’t do much research after you found some claim. Isn’t that true?
Elaboration:
I was born and grew up in West-Berlin. We were occupied by the former enemies of Germany. The post-war inhabitans of Berlin were luckily clever enough not to attack the occupiers or to bomb their civilians. Thus the occupation was not a problem, even though at the beginning Germans and Allied Forces hated each other.
There have been many occupations, but in these two cases the occupiers were very much alike, as were, in the beginning, the occupied.
But some peoples grow up.
“You are naive, Safro, and you tend to blame the Jews”
-I was just looking for some clarity…and I didn’t get that quote from an Arab source. I was reading an article yes, so all I asked you is if the quote is true. there is a purpose to the question mark ya know. I will admit when I am uneducated on a specific topic and I will continue to research it. But there were no statements made. Now “you are naive” is definitely a statement and you are in no way qualified to make that assertion. You are one perspective and it is a damn big world. Why don’t you open up YOUR mind. If you think you are right ALL the time and anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong then you have a lot to learn…
“and you tend to blame the jews” isn’t even worth responding to. Honestly after all our comments back and forth you still can’t seem to grasp anything I am saying.
“Why don’t you open up YOUR mind. If you think you are right ALL the time and anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong then you have a lot to learn…”
Safro, you base your opinion that I am not open-minded enough on the silly idea that open-mindedness requires that I believe whatever I read. I don’t.
You do tend to blame Jews. You have done that above and earlier. It didn’t even occur to you that the conflict might have began with the BEGINNING of the war, not with the first majorm Jewish offensive. It isn’t difficult to find out. Whatever source you found, when you read the word “Zionists” rather than “Israel” or “Jews” you should have noticed something. And if you want to have an opinion about Israel and the conflict, you really should read about the early years and not just assume that the violence began in 1948 with a Jewish attack on their helpless victims.
You tend to blame the Jews IS worth responding to, because it is exactly true. That’s exactly what you did.
You were looking for the beginning of the conflict, you found Jews committing acts of violence, you stopped researching. That is exactly what “tend” means.
I honestly do not know which somewhat reliable source could POSSIBLY ever begin the story with that incident in the middle of the war.
And if you told the story of World War II and asked whether the conflict began with the Russian invasion of Germany, I would argue that you tend to blame the Russians. Because that is what you would have done by assuming that the conflict began with a Russian attack.
I do not think that I am right all the time, your exagerations prove nothing. I happen to think that I am right NOW.
You are not wrong because you disagree with me, you are wrong because history disagrees with you.
You are wrong because you called Raccoon and myself a racist when we thought our lives were worth more than the lives of our attackers (even though you later confirmed that you had the same idea about your life).
You are wrong because you look at a Jewish counter-offensive in a war started by the Arab side and immediately consider that that could have been the start of the conflict without even wondering why it happened.
You are wrong because you keep assuming that race is somehow important here, while both Raccoon and I have told you that it is not.
You are wrong because you make up theories that are simply false and can be easily disproven.
That’s why you are wrong. That’s it. And if I agreed with you, you would not be right, we’d both be wrong.
And to look at the middle of a war and decide that what happened then might have started the conflict, that IS naive. It’s very very naive.
That’s how deep the conflict goes. And it would end whenever the Arabs want it to end. We are just waiting for them to decide that Israelis have a right to exist.
The Egyptian and Jordanian government have agreed, so have the PLO (which meant nothing, of course).
The reason I read these blogs is to get different perspectives in order to learn. I find your responses very demeaning and arrogant which can be rather unconstructive unless you take pleasure in putting people down. From what I know, you have only experienced one side of this conflict. so yes it was my attempt to play the devil’s advocate. I never pretended to be an expert (did I?) and I feel for both sides of this conflict-which is why I want to learn as much as I can about it-it’s obviously very complex and I have a long way to go. But for that, thank you for lending me you views.
I find the whole religion/race accusations particularly funny. Religionwise I am non-denominational. I do find organized religion very fascinating and historical but I all too often see religion dividing people rather than bringing them together. I dont see one religion as being superior to another-just different. I supose, in a way, I practice many different religions. I believe you guys were the ones who brought religion and race up in the first place with the whole “blame it on the Jews” bit. I guess I see the Israel/Palestine conflict as more of a clash of civilizations.
Perhaps the reason Israel is easier to blame is because, from the outside, Israel is kinda like the adult and Palestine is like an immature child. While Israel is a sovereign, advanced nation, Palestine is in quite a desperate state..so yes people look to Israel as the more reasonable one who needs to take the lead in ending the conflict.
“I find your responses very demeaning and arrogant which can be rather unconstructive unless you take pleasure in putting people down.”
Yes. It simply frustrates me to be shot at and then be blamed for it or asked to see the other side’s point of view.
The other side’s point of view, as clearly defined by Nasrallah, was that I should die. How could I possibly feel sympathy for that side? How can anybody ask me to “see” their point of view? They want to kill me.
“From what I know, you have only experienced one side of this conflict. so yes it was my attempt to play the devil’s advocate.”
Yes, I have only experienced one side of this conflict. I have experienced the side that faces an enemy that wants to destroy it.
I would _love_ to experience the other side of the conflict. I would love to be on the other side, prefaerably before Israel won the wars launched against her and with a more capable leadership so we could get rid of the Jews instead of losing against them.
But I happened not to want to support the side that advocates genocide. I live in Europe. I didn’t have to travel to Israel. I could, if I wanted an easier life, if I wanted to live without danger, if I wanted the support of everyone, simply denounce Israeli attempts to survive and support the “Palestinian” right to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews.
“I find the whole religion/race accusations particularly funny.”
Really? We were confused by it. You brought it up when you implied that a wall that divides the victim and the would-be/murderer is obviously about racism. And you continued bringing it up. I never understood how race is important or what it has to do with anything.
“I guess I see the Israel/Palestine conflict as more of a clash of civilizations.”
What exactly is the civilisation we are clashing with?
The Islamic civilisation has very little to do with the fascism of Hamas and Fatah. Islam is very clear about who G-d gave the land to and what they must do and how many exiles there will be. This is neither about race nor about religion.
But let me guess… you will continue to talk about race and religion, as if it had anything to do with it, and you will continue to claim that it is us who bring that up. Then you will look down on us for being so racist and announce, again, that you find it “funny” that somebody might think that this has anything to do with race.
I will make this perfectly clear for everybody else though:
This is, from our side, NOT about race. I don’t care about the race or ethnicity of those who want to kill me, although those who want to kill me seem to care.
This is NOT about religion. Judaism and Islam agree that Moses was a prophet and that G-d gave the holy land to the Jews and told them to defend it. Muhammed also re-iterated that there won’t be a third exile and that the Jews were told not to turn back. There is no theological conflict there.
The problem is not the race of the involved, the problem is the racism of anti-Semites. And the problem is not Islam or religion, but the fact that Hamas/Hizbullah/other groups simply ignore what their religion tells them.
Israel has Arab citizens. Do you think Jordan or “Palestine” have many Jewish citizens? Why not?
Israeli racism, I assume?
“While Israel is a sovereign, advanced nation, Palestine is in quite a desperate state..so yes people look to Israel as the more reasonable one who needs to take the lead in ending the conflict.”
Both sides started at the same point. Both sides could be advanced. One side decided to become more advanced, the other side decided to attack.
Call me racist, if you like, but I feel that Arabs and their countries are just as adult as Jews and theirs, if they want to be. Seeing one side as the superior adult and the other as an inferior child seems, well, a teeny bit racist to me, no?
I read with a regret that the person who has the same last name says about
Israeli-Palestine conflict. I want to remind you though I do not know your roots, that Safro is a pure Jewish last name - meaning a person who rewrites religious books, Torah, Talmud etc.
The major problem of the conflict is in hatred towards Jews which is cultivated in Arabs including Arabs living in Canaan (or Palestine) for years. Every time the Israeli leaders wanted to resolve problems politically and peacefully the suicide bombers interrupted that process. The first step which should be done is fully acceptance of Israel by all radical arab groups. And then the ways to improve life of arabs living in Canaan is in their own hands. Build plants, develop industry, raise level of education. Any radical Islamic movements declaring that those who are not muslims are infidels and should be annihilated must be prohibited in that area. And you will see - Israel and the areas bordering it will be prosperious and rich, and everybody who live there - Jews, Arabs, Armenians - and other natiotions will gain.
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