Robert Spencer fails miserably to distinguish between true Muslims and extremist Muslims. He fails to distinguish between extremist interpretations of Islam and true moderate interpretations of Islam. Whether he does it on purpose or not is a matter I will leave for you to decide. The man is biased and very shallow. I pitty him. The way he interprets the Quran to try and justify his weak ops I meant “solid” arguments is the same way terrorists interpret it to justify their violence. The following is from his blog Jihad Watch. Please read it very carefully.
“Q: Do you hate Muslims?
RS: Of course not. Islam is not a monolith, and never have I said or written anything that characterizes all Muslims as terrorist or given to violence. I am only calling attention to the roots and goals of jihad violence. Any Muslim who renounces violent jihad and dhimmitude is welcome to join in our anti-jihadist efforts. Any hate in my books comes from Muslim sources I quote, not from me. Cries of “hatred” and “bigotry” are effectively used by American Muslim advocacy groups to try to stifle the debate about the terrorist threat. But there is no substance to them.”
We Muslims are followers of Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) is our holy Prophet. We love him and respect him. Insulting him is deemed an insult to Islam which is in turn deemed an insult to us the followers of Islam. I don’t mind someone questioning the actions of our Prophet but what I do mind is people painting him and Islam in a very negative and biased way. I don’t consider such things constructive. On the contrary, I consider them to be very unconstructive.
Robert Spencer’s latest book is entitled “The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World’s Most Intolerant Religion”. To me it seems like he’s already made up his mind that Islam is an intolerant religion. As much as Robert Spencer’s intentions might, I repeat might be sincere (*cough *cough I’m sure they are), the title of his book is not welcoming at all to a person like me. By characterizing Muhmmad (pbuh) as an evil intolerant person, he automatically characterizes Islam as an evil intolerant religion and us Muslims, the followers of Islam as evil intolerant people too. For a person trying to invite Muslims to fight along his side against extremist loony terrorists, Islamophobe Robert Spencer does a very “lovely” and truly “wonderful” job!
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I like you, Drima.
But really? What if I notified Spencer about how you felt? Would you be prepared to get into a serious debate with Spencer (or Fitzgerald over at Jihad Watch) if he responded to criticisms? Which he probably won’t, but if he did?) Do you really think he either as “shallow” or as disingenuous as your post indicates?
You may not like his opinions, but Spencer is no dummy, Drima. The first thing you have to understand about Robert Spencer is that he has indeed made up his mind: Islam is an intolerant religion. He argues that not all Muslims are intolerant, but Islam is an inherently intolerant doctrine. I think Spencer believes the only way Islam can be reformed is a movement away from literalism. In any event, Spencer argues, it isn’t his job to reform Islam or come up with a model of Islam that is acceptably tolerant and civilized when relating to non-Muslims. For obvious reasons, only Muslims can reform Islam.
“I think Spencer believes the only way Islam can be reformed is a movement away from literalism. ”
But that’s the thing Tommy. People interpreting the Quran literally are not interpreting it correctly in the first place. What they’re practicing isn’t even true Islam. It’s not the Islam that I or millions of other Muslims have grown up knowing. My main problem with him is that he fails to distinguish between true Islam and the practice of extremist interpretations that aren’t considered Islamic in today’s context (eg. Sharia in KSA, Iran, Taliban).
On the issue of debate, yes I honestly don’t mind as long as we discuss things point by point and build up the argument rather than too many things at one go. However I doubt that would have any real effect at the end because like you said, he’s already made up his mind (and with his writing is causing others to come to that conclusion too).
One of these coming days, I’m going to start a point by point structured discussion about the controversial actions of the Prophet and also about Islam in general… I think it would be good and at least I’ll be able to elaborate many important points.
So when are the millions and millions of moderate Muslims planning to stand up and be counted? The sad fact is that the only Muslim voices that the non-Islamic world sees are almost always the extremists, because they shout loudest. As for pleas by moderates that infidels should try to understand the religion of Islam, forget it. Nobody has the time or really the interest to try looking beyond what CNN or Fox News tells them. And there is a problem with literal interpretations and the lack of a single guiding authority. How is anyone supposed to know which version of Islam is the ‘right’ one?
Drima -
frankly, Spencer is using only primary Islamic sources - Quran and the most acceptable Ahadith - when talking about general problems in Islam. Please mind that most (almost all, I think) Muslims do not perform the theological gymnastics that you do, or try to interpretate the Quran and Ahadith, or indeed know very much about Islam; they follow the words of their religious leaders, who are almost uniformely psychotic and illiterate rabble-rousers…
I am quite looking forward to your Muhammad&Islam post
Don’t know that Spencer guy, but:
“We Muslims are followers of Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) is our holy Prophet. We love him and respect him. Insulting him is deemed an insult to Islam which is in turn deemed an insult to us the followers of Islam”
ouch! (from Denmark)
How can one possibly insult a religion ? A belief system. An insult to followers of Islam, granted. Some may see it as psychological warfare, having found a “sore spot” to prod at.
Now, Drima, no disrespect, but to the average Westerner the Prophet is a character from the mists of history - along the lines of Iskander Bey, Caesar et al. A historical figure (of great consequence) but nothing more. Unless I study Islam to the point of conversion, there is no way I could “know” the Prophet like you do. So if I make an inappropriate remark about him, can you just shrug and think “what does that infidel know?” ?
A Westerner is not bound by Shari’a or even Middle East culture. Only by decent behaviour. Wha’ya think ?
and -like the Raccoon - I’m quite looking forward to your Muhammad&Islam post
One of these coming days, I’m going to start a point by point structured discussion about the controversial actions of the Prophet and also about Islam in general
Actually, I think you’d be better off not wading into that morass. It’s a waste of time, because it’s a discussion about religion, which is always subjective in the first place.
I don’t follow Spencer’s writings, but he does seem to fearlessly tread on subjects Muslims seem to think they alone are qualified to discuss. If Muslims truly see their religion as having a significance for the entire world, this kind of discussion should be welcomed, and not silenced. For Muslims to think this is an insult, or a hostile challenge, or some kind of slur seems to me a sign of weakness within Islam itself.
Somebody like Tariq Ramadan I can easily dismiss, because his views and aims are politicized in favor of European socialist versions of nationalism (and no, I won’t go so far as to say Nationalist Socialist), especially as they apply to Palestine. Spencer, however, doesn’t seem to be pursuing a particular political agenda, other than the pursuit of democratic ideals of debate.
“he sad fact is that the only Muslim voices that the non-Islamic world sees are almost always the extremists, because they shout loudest.”
Keefieboy, I know and I understand that. At the end of the day it’s ultimately our fault.
“So if I make an inappropriate remark about him, can you just shrug and think “what does that infidel know?” ?”
Halalhippie, in most cases I don’t really think much about it because i know in the West it’s normal for people to make fun of religion. I mean they even make fun of Jesus. I ignore such things. (see hisper’s blog) However I’m sure any pious Christian will feel offended when viewing something that’s perceived as insulting to Jesus. I’ve got Christian friends who do feel like that and they’re Westerners by the way. I remember once a Canadian friend of mine didn’t want to continue watching a comedy show he found insulting.
I’m just trying to show how a Muslim like me ie. non-violent, willing to have dialogue etc. will perceive Robert Spencer. I support the war against al-Qaeda and I pray for the day they’re all crushed but when the people pushing this war have that kind of attitude the result is counter productive at the end of the day. Due to this kind of stuff, I’ve known people who didn’t support al-Qaeda but now do… Robert Spencer’s books and the rhetoric coming out from extremist Mullahs is bringing the clash of civilizations closer and closer.
Dear God, Drima. Can you refute his statements about the Koran institutionalizing widespread violence and oppression against non-muslims? Or does the _unabrogated_ Koran teach equality of dignity for other religions?
It’s not personal, Spencer isn’t interested in being either alienating or welcoming to *anyone*. He studies the texts themselves, as The Raccoon said above, and the verifiable truth about their content is his standard. These texts create Islam. They define the philosphy that incentivizes millions of Muslims, now and historically. It’s not intolerant? Show which of his statements are untrue. (He makes his cases in his books quite clearly.) Demonstrate it with source references, of course (as he always does).
I’ve seen some of the back and forth messages with challengers (who quit early not having supported their points or refuted his) and he is always very polite and respectful. He would surely welcome discussion with you. He sticks to the facts and never makes personal attacks (though he is target of them continually).
Or are such observations just unpleasant to hear?
He practically begs any and all muslim spokesmen and others to honestly debate him in the arena of the blogosphere. Most have, well… have chickened out. Looks like this is because they fear that they can’t support their positions nor refute his. It appears they are recognizing that the truth about Islam is not on their side. And that it’s not that he’s so briliant or anything, but that it’s so easy to win an argument when the truth is on your side.
I do wonder, what’s a nice moderate Muslim to do if the texts reveal his Islam to be Koranically inauthentic? How difficult.
Hi Drima-and everyone else- I do read Spencer’s site and also Drima’s , Sand Monkey etc. I like them all. I am not a scholar of my religion , or of Islam. Drima has mad ethe point that Islam is not meant to be taken literally, which is an interesting point - because so much of religious text is to be seen metaphorically. However,at its most literal is it more violent and intolerant than are others? Also,i is it the habit of muslims,as a rule to rely on the text directly, than do observers of other religions
“Dear God, Drima. Can you refute his statements about the Koran institutionalizing widespread violence and oppression against non-muslims? Or does the _unabrogated_ Koran teach equality of dignity for other religions?”
Shebop, my exams are coming up soon. By December I’ll be on holiday and free. I’ll start following JihadWatch more closely then and believe me I’ll start challenging his posts right here on this humble blog of mine. Robert Spencer ignores a lot of things and takes the the texts out of context. The Koran wasn’t revealed in a vacuum my friend.
limpia, thanks for dropping by.
“However,at its most literal is it more violent and intolerant than are others?”
No, I don’t believe so. There are verses in the Bible commanding similar things too. The only difference is that most Chrisitians nowadays are smart enough not to take them literaly.
Drima,
I was just expressing real exasperation at your apparent incomprehension. But actually now it sounds like you commented without having yet read Spencer’s work enough to have a good grip on the controversies that trouble many non-muslims. My exasperation is built up from countless Muslims seeming willfully blind to - to call a spade a spade - Islam’s unmatched penchant for violence against non-muslims.
“I do wonder, what’s a nice moderate Muslim to do if the texts reveal his Islam to be Koranically inauthentic? How difficult.”
I am very sincere about that statement. If I were a Muslim who can see the darkness in the Koranic dehumanization of non-Muslims, as all decent persons would, it would probably be a dreadful dilemma for me. As I learned more, I would probably take the sort of position that West Europeans do regarding colonialism, Americans do their past’s dark chapters (slavery and native Americans). Deep self-criticism. Those “others” were SO wronged in the past. Only difference is that my Koran and a lot of mosque clerics would be on the OTHER side, justifying and cultivating venom against “infidels.” TODAY. And that would make it much worse. I would *never* be explaining it away. For that’s just wrong. And any Muslims honestly contending with that dilemma have my true respect. For they are ethical. But seeing no evil because it’s Islam is not a moral stance.
BTW, no mainstream position today in any other major religion cultivates venom against non-members like Islam. Research it, and I think you’ll see.
I didn’t mean to come across unfriendly at all. If I seemed that way, I’m sorry. I see your sincerity and well-meaningness. But nonetheless I’ve become exasperated by the above, and I’m just speaking directly.
I look forward to your Jihadwatch discussion and I think it could be a fruitful discourse.
Shebop, no need for apologies. Don’t worry I wasn’t offended by your previous comments at all and I know you only meant well. It’s all good mate.
Believe me I plan on tackling this issue very soon but I can’t do so properly until I have enough time to research links for better presentation. Meanwhile please keep in mind the following. Even a pure angel could end up misunderstanding the Koran if read literally. Humans are flawed and therefore their interpretation is bound to be flawed. However if the interpretation is carried out in good will and with good intentions then the product and practice of this interpretation will produce positive results. Islam shoudn’t be judged by those who practice it but by what it truly preaches. At this point you could ask yourself: what is Islam? Islam is the Koran and the Sunnah of the Prophet. The Sunnah and the history of that period provides the context of the Koran. It is at this point now where the doubts and debate starts because when the Sunnah is brought into account, the Prophets actions must be answered and explained while keeping in mind they were the actions/reactions of what was happening in his environment at the time. What Robert Spencer did in his latest book is take the actions of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) out of context to make him look evil. I plan on refuting that.
I think we all need to stop deceiving this nice man. JW is hate site, try reading some of hugh fitzgerald’s fascist rants (he’s a JW officer) and get back to me.
If you dont have time here it is in a nutshell:
1. There are no moderate muslims, those that say they are moderates are liars using Taqqiya (kitman) to fool the naive infidels ie they have the same goals as the extremists/terrorists
2. If moderate muslims exist (one or two individuals at most) they’re also a threat because their very presence furthers the “slow” jihad; they should therefore be expulsed from the West
3. ALL muslims should be made to eventually leave the west (ethnic cleansing) and we should do whatever we can to make their presence in the west as unconfortable as possible
4. Inter-ethnic (kurd vs arab, Berber vs. Arab, Persian vs. Arab) and inter-religious (Sunni-Shia) conflicts - we’re talking millions of casualties - are to be incited, encouraged and exploited in the Muslim world as it weakens “their” camp and keeps “them” too busy to attack “us”
Dont believe me? all you have to do is read what that scumbag says, keeping in mind that he was hired and is supported by Mr. Spencer (who shares his views)
You might also want to take a look at the comments section, filled with the rants of faithfull JW readers and RS fans who spew hatred against ALL muslims.
Best regards,
AR
Give me a break. Spencer is a spineless coward who has repeatedly refused to have any face-to-face deabte with Muslims. I’ve checked his web site and it is full of hate, many of his readers are white extremist and possible terrorists. Muslim haters talk real tough and condescending when amongst themselves high on their own lies and propaganda but wet their pants when asked to walk the walk. Check this out http://www.examinethetruth.com
This isa really good site, but at least people here are talking about the ‘the problem’.
The problem is that the Quran is full of hate and violence against non-Muslims. Yes it does say some nice things also. I hope nobody will argue this point, either point.
Would some Muslim care to explain these calls for subduing, being ruthless and even killing non-Muslims? Are these not a contradiction? If they have been abrogated, please provide an official listing of all abrogated verses, or better, a Quran in which these verses have been removed.
Now let us talk about Islam’s traditions. In case you haven’t read them, they too are full of stories about very bad things done by your prophet. I am talking murder, torture, attacks and wars, enslavement, rape, plunder and even beating his own wife (unless “he hit me and caused me pain” means something else). These are not nice things and they were not written by Spencer, Ali sina, ali Hirst (?) or jihad watch, or ali anybodyelse. They can be found in Islam’s most “reliable” hadiths, written by the friends and followers of Islam’s prophet. If needed, I can provide reference and even links to Islamic sites (MSA, for example) that have kindly put these writings online so us infidels can read for ourselves about Islam.
So, given to violence in the Islamic Society today, and the anger and violence preached in both the mosques and streets against Infidels, I think it is fair to assume that these tghings are directly related to events and writings from about 1300 years ago.
I would like to find a muslim site that deals with these hard questions (the calls for violence, the hate for non-muslims, supression of freedoms, Mohammed beating Aisha, the brutal torture, Banu Mustaliq and the rape of the women, Asma Marwan, the pregnant lady split open, and so on). For the most part they ignore most of them, or make silly excuses (out of context, everybody did it, bad translations, you don’t understand, etc…).
You all take care,
John old man kactuz
he calls for violence, the hate for non-muslims, supression of freedoms, Mohammed beating Aisha, the brutal torture, Banu Mustaliq and the rape of the women, Asma Marwan, the pregnant lady split open, and so on
You have made these claims, can you provide sources for these wild claims. How can a Muslim answer these claims if you do not post where you have read this.
Thanks
John Cactuz & Isa
Can you guys please show me where the koran tells us to hate non muslims. Where does it talks about beating Aisha, ‘the rape of any woman’, ‘pregnant lady split open’? Please read the the Quran before you talk about it.
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