655,000 Iraqis??!! Okay you seriously have got to be kidding me! I really doubt those figures and I hope Mohammad or Omar at Iraq The Model, can provide a few words on this matter.
In the new study, researchers attempt to calculate how many more Iraqis have died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. Their conclusion, based on interviews of households and not a body count, is that about 600,000 died from violence, mostly gunfire. They also found a small increase in deaths from other causes like heart disease and cancer.
“Deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003,” Dr. Gilbert Burnham, lead author of the study, said in a statement.
Here’s the hotly debated question that requires a decisive answer: Who’s responsible, the United States or the terrorists in Iraq? If you ask me, I say it’s a combination of both. Am I pissed off at Bush? YES, I am. Why? He invaded a country and executed a poorly planned strategy that hasn’t produced much positive results until now. Am I pissed off at the filthy terrorists in Iraq? Hell yeah. Why? They’re mercilessly killing and terrorizing innocent people on a daily basis. Who am I pissed off at more? The filthy terrorists. Why? FACT: If those damn butchers stopped killing their country mates, Iraqis would be enjoying a democratic Iraq free of Mr. Saddam Hussein Lucifer and his damn Ba’athist party! For me… it’s as simple as that.
UPDATE: Omar @ Iraq The Model posts his thoughts.
SudaneseThinker
SudaneseThinker
{ 23 comments… read them below or add one }
That would be about 500 bodies a day.
Saddam required mass graves to get rid of so many bodies. The Nazis killed about 4000 people a day and needed furnaces to get rid of the bodies (they had a much larger area to do it in).
I wonder how the Iraqi government or the Americans get rid of so many bodies without mass graves or furnaces. I wonder if the study even addresses the point.
Furthermore, I remember news reports about a million (or millions of) children dying in Iraqi hospitals because of the sanctions (rather because Saddam didn’t allow medication to be delivered, I am sure the UN did not withhold humanitarian aid, and my opinion of the UN is low enough). Can we assume that these deaths are not happening any more? How does that affect the total? Did they deduct the dead children?
Be pissed of at the filthy terrorists if you like, but the Americans have done the same thing to my own country, and we were apparently smart enough to co-operate with them and not to kill each other (even though Germany is half catholic, half protestant). OTOH our neighbours did not send in terrorists to kill us. And if they had, I wouldn’t be sure if I would want to blame American incompetence for it.
Even in the news reports about this study, they indicated that most researchers were highly skeptical and that the researchers in question have a history of playing politics with the figures.
I checked German news sites. They report it as fact without any such notes.
No wonder Germans are opposed to the evil zionist American occupation of Iraq.
“I checked German news sites. They report it as fact without any such notes.”
I swear Europe, is really funny sometimes… I think the report is a joke… I mean seriously 600,000 in 3 years??? They HAVE to be kidding me… Plus they released it close to the election time so maybe that was the main point behind it…
Too bad many Muslims will take it as super fact and will get enraged further more…
Well, than Drima, you should remind those enraged muslims that probably 90% of those deaths are at the hands of other muslims.
You should change the title to 655 000 dead because of “peace” or “freedom” or “womd”, all of which have been the slogans for this war i believe?
Egypeter,
Well again your views are puzzling me, what does this have to do with islam? Why is The Iraq war coming down to which muslim’s enraged about another muslim’s death at the hands of yet another muslim?
What about the non muslims that are enraged? Indeed what about the non Arabs that are enraged?
The reasons for this war have already been proven wrong so whose fault is it that this number of people are dead?
What about those still dying, whose responsibility are they?
Oh but because they’re muslim it doesn’t matter, they’re not all muslim and you’re not seriously suggesting that because they died at the hands of terrorists, not just muslims coz i’m sure you’re not making that huge a generalisation, then Bush is not to blame are you?
I hated Saddam too and so did most Iraqis but what’s happening in Iraq is too disgusting for words and the Bush administration should be tried for this.
I’m sorry my words are puzzling you shahrazad. But the fact remains that it’s currently shia on sunni violence in Iraq that is causing the majority of deaths in Iraq. There’s no way to spin that.
I hated Saddam too and he had to go. And I agree with you that the current violence in Iraq is digusting. It surely isn’t U.S. foreign policy that is responsible for the centuries of animosity b/w sunni and shiah.
“The reasons for this war have already been proven wrong so whose fault is it that this number of people are dead?
What about those still dying, whose responsibility are they?
Oh but because they’re muslim it doesn’t matter, they’re not all muslim and you’re not seriously suggesting that because they died at the hands of terrorists,”
Huh? Where did I say that it doesn’t matter that they’re dying because they are muslim?? Don’t put words in my mouth or jump to conclusions.
My point stands. The bulk of the carnage in Iraq is muslim killing muslim. Sorry.
I agree with you Egypeter. If those dickheads stopped killing each other, the figures won’t be so high but my point that the US is also partly to blame and is responsible also stands. Many right wingers refuse to admit this fact even though it’s obvious. I think it’s probably out of self denial or patriotism but that doesn’t change anything. An occupying army has the duty to keep order. The United States isn’t carrying out its duty well. Bush is responsible too.
Drima - it’s very difficult, keeping order in a tribalized society. As you know. And USA is investing incredible amounts of money and manpower into doing just that. Basically, USA forces in Iraq have been used as police since they (quickly) won the war. It’s not a duty they are well-suited for… and they fuck up a lot.
USA desperately needs a free, democratic Iraq… so does Iraq, and, frankly, the rest of the world. Looking at the Kurdish Autonomy in Iraq, BTW, I say that they have a chance… unfortunately, the rest of the Middle East (sans Israel) is investing a lot of money and manpower into prevention of a free and democratic Iraq. It would be very, very bad for the theocrats and autocrats of the ME.
Egypeter,
“Well, than Drima, you should remind those enraged muslims that probably 90% of those deaths are at the hands of other muslims. ”
and for your information i’m not an enraged muslim, i’m an enraged human.
“There’s no way to spin that” No there isn’t. America went to war with Iraq and this is the result! i don’t know anyone who’d debate this one except maybe Bush himself.
Yes the killings are also being committed by terrorist groups Alq v Alsadr. Add to that American and British troops and the Iraqi people are pretty much screwed, but whose fault is it?
See, pretty complex this one. So what i’m saying is it can’t be brought down to that old nutshell of oh but it’s muslims killing muslims bla bla.
Ok. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
If you wanna believe all of the Arab world’s problem is due to the U.S. then that’s your choice.
And that’s a fine example of why the cycle of violence continues in the middle east. Nobody want’s to fix the problem instead everyone is more interested in trying to find someone or something to blame…something nice and convenient like the Great Satan or those damn Zionist Joooz.
And no, I think it IS that simple. Iraqi Sunnis and Iraqi Shiahs hate each other to the core and want to get rid of the other, period. And it was only Saddam’s strong arm tactics that kept them in line for so long. Now America gives them self-rule and self-determination and all they wanna do is kill each other instead of trying to build a country. All the U.S.’s fault, right? Whatever Shahzrad
“And that’s a fine example of why the cycle of violence continues in the middle east. Nobody want’s to fix the problem instead everyone is more interested in trying to find someone or something to blame…something nice and convenient like the Great Satan or those damn Zionist Joooz.”
Read my comment again, i said it was Alqaeda, Alsadr’s group and the American and British troops, and btw who brought up the “zionist joooz”???
Yeah it is the US’s fault for the simple reason that they went to war with Iraq for reasons that have now been proven to be invalid, so any country should take responsibility for its actions, in this case America.
They are also to blame for Alqaeda and other terrorist groups being in control and for the state of chaos Iraq is in. When you invade a country and years later it’s in this much of a mess the responsibility lies on you and if anything goes wrong or that many people are dead due to your lack of ability to protect the civilians from terorism, it’s again your fault.
I would be very grateful if you try to be less patronizing. Don’t give me this line:”If you wanna believe all of the Arab world’s problem is due to the U.S. then that’s your choice”. Where did i say that? I think the Arab leaders and the Arab world are a total mess and they are responsible for that not the Americans so don’t make assumptions out of thin air.
“Nobody want’s to fix the problem instead everyone is more interested in trying to find someone or something to blame…something nice and convenient like the Great Satan or those damn Zionist Joooz.”
Again, don’t lump me in this category because i dared to criticize America’s handling of the war. Just like Arabs should take responsibility for their mess, America should take care of theirs. In this case, and in my opinion, Iraq is their mess. If you disagree, fine but don’t say i’m of this opinion because of the whole “jooz” argument. What would you say to an American who’s critical of Bush’s handling of the war, oh you hate the joooz and you’re looking for someone to blame!
What i said was very simple and has nothing to do with blaming someone else for Arab mistakes, quite the opposite. Of course America should carry some responsibility for Iraq! If Egypt invaded a country tomorrow it would be it’s problem when things go wrong!
As for the “whatever” i won’t even reply, the whole talk to the hand thing’s not really my style…
Shahrazad, now after you elaborated I can understand better where you’re coming from.
I agree with you dear but I think there’s 2 sides to this. It’s the Sunni-VS-Shia thingy causing a lot of bloodshed and hence the blame should fall on them too. They’re not killing each other because one is blonde and the other is dark skinned. They’re killing each other based on political agendas that are in turn based on religious motivations ie. the centuries old religious split between Sunnis and Shias. You can’t totally seperate this aspect from what’s happening.
Drima,
I’m actually not seperating it i mentioned the sunni/shia thing along with America’s invasion as the main reasons for the deaths in Iraq.
My first comment was regarding Egypeter’s bringing the whole thing down to muslims killing muslims. I mean never mind that in America and Britain political parties and the public are demanding justification for the war no no, let’s blame it on the muslims, not terrorists but muslims! Never mind that Iraqis never had that divide before and still don’t. It’s only two terrorist groups that are fighting each other and killing muslim and non muslim Iraqis and using Iraq’s occupation as the excuse.
Similarly, America’s using them as the excuse as to why they’re not going anywhere. So if the American government’s saying they have to stay and take care of this, doesn’t that mean that they are in fact responsible for what happens in Iraq? I mean they’re saying so by staying, no?
Of course when things get as messy as this America has to take the blame along with terrorist shia and terrorist sunni groups, who only became active in Iraq when it got invaded and became a free for all! But still, security is America’s responsibility and it’s their job to sort out the mess they’ve caused and protect the people from getting massacred by the troops and the terrorists.
If Egypt was being run by terrorists i’d hold the government accountable not the terrorists because they’re terrorists, that’s what they do! Now what government can be held accountable in Iraq, in my personal opinion, the American government.
Shahrazad - uhm. I won’t get into this argument, because it’ll take too much effort to unravel the thick tapestry of bullshit around Iraq.
But I can start with pulling on one thread: the reasons for which the Coalition went into Iraq were and are valid in almost absolute majority. They still are - hence the continued Coalition presence in Iraq. Please ponder the issue and research it, if you care.
“Well again your views are puzzling me, what does this have to do with islam?”
If only I knew. The terrorists know. I don’t.
“Why is The Iraq war coming down to which muslim’s enraged about another muslim’s death at the hands of yet another muslim?”
That’s simple. It is because it is enraged Muslims that are doing the killing. Not true Muslims perhaps, but Muslims-in-name anyway.
“What about the non muslims that are enraged?”
I have not heard of any non-Muslim terrorists attacking Iraqi mosques or taking part in the sectarian violence. Maybe enraged non-Muslims are not part of the problem?
“Indeed what about the non Arabs that are enraged?
What about them? A few Iranians appear to be involved. But most of the terrorists seem to be Sunnis, i.e. Arabs.
“I hated Saddam too and so did most Iraqis but what’s happening in Iraq is too disgusting for words and the Bush administration should be tried for this.”
We could try the king of Thailand. He is also not doing the killing.
If you carefully ignore Saddam’s crimes, and the mass graves, and his wars, and then believe a dubious “study” about the current status, you CAN indeed come to the result that it is worse now.
But how you arrive at the conclusion that George Bush must be tried for the terrorists’ attacks on Iraqis is beyond me.
It seems like you are looking for somebody non-Arab to blame for a crime committed by Arabs. But why???
“Never mind that Iraqis never had that divide before and still don’t.”
http://www.9neesan.com/massgraves/
If you take a very careful look you might notice some divide.
And if you deny that Sunni terrorists are attacking Shi’ites because they are Shi’ites, and that Shia terrorists attack Sunnis because they are Sunnis, then you cannot have followed the news about Iraq enough to make any definitive statement about the issue.
Andrew Brehm,
Thanks for the sarcastic reply, i honestly mean that. It made me laugh.
“If only I knew. The terrorists know. I don’t”
That’s my point and i’m really glad you used the term terrorists and not muslims. It really is tiring sometimes to have to be stereotyped because you’re from the same race etc. So thanks for making that distinction and of course you don’t need me to tell you that i’m against them too.
Yes muslims in name are doing the killing but my point wasn’t about religion it was about politics. I was referring to the fact that events in Iraq cannot be summed up in this way. it would be too simplistic to just say oh well it’s all the muslims’ fault and not hold the Bush administration accountable too.
No we don’t need to try the king of Thailand because as you said, he’s not doing any killing. Bush however went to war with a country and years later it’s in the state it’s in, which in my opinion he is, along with the terrorists, to be held accountable for.
Who ignored Saddam? To rid Iraq of Saddam was simple enough, my problem is the occupation of Iraq thereafter.
I’m blaming the terrorists who are Arab and the Bush administration so really it comes down this, i believe the war was wrong and founded on myths of wmd and AlQaeda etc, you don’t?
I also believe that the regime that launches a war on a country becomes responsible for what happens there. You can’t invade a country and say oops we’re not to blame for the thousands being massacred on a daily basis. The terrorists are to blame of course but you can’t really expect fanatics and murderers to co-operate. So the responsibility in my opinion lies with the American government. That’s like me saying that if someone in your street gets killed everyday it’s not the police’s problem!
Another thing we clearly disagree on is whether Bush’s policies and actions in Iraq are right. To me, he ordered the war based on lies, years later well it is what it is, he’s occupying a country whose people don’t want the American or British troops there, he’s also not managing to solve the terrorism issue, which by now is too huge to be controlled in 10 yrs even.
This is why i think he’s up there with Saddam and should be tried for the thousands killed, the illegal war, the lies told to launch that war.
When i was referring to Sunnis and Shias i was referring to the people. All the Iraqis i know are from mixed families, it was never an issue between the people. It was of course an issue if you’re talking about Saddam or the terrorist groups who’re fighting each other and killing civilians from opposite sides.
Racoon,
If the reasons for this war were valid no one would have a problem. Naturally if you believe they were you’d support such a war. I mean i’m very anti war but at least then it wouldn’t have all been a big fat lie!
Shahrazad -
While your opinions are clearly understandable - and quite commonplace - I believe that they arise from certain bias and probably a dearth of information. Uhm.
Saddam’s regime was perpetrating a genocide against the Kurds. Iraq was under an oppressive yoke of quite a bloody horrible tyranny. However, due to this oppressive yoke, the traditional tribal and denominational conflicts found little expression. One tends to avoid violence when it will get everyone one knows raped and then killed.
Saddam was also openly and happily supporting terrorism financially, technically, physically and morally.
He was also in violation of numerous Security Council resolutions.
These are some of the reasons - the tip of the iceberg, so to speak - why USA chose to wage war against Iraq. They are freely availiable online, just check newspapers and records of USA government debates from before the war. Same goes for records of UN debates from the same period.
The reasons for the war were and are valid. There was and is a dire need for a free and democratic Iraq (for various reasons, the chief two of which are USA and the world’s safety and a catalyst for socio-political change in ME).
About Iraq’s internal warfare:
Once the oppresive regime of Saddam was removed, the long-supressed tribal and denominational violent conflicts began. To these were added factional conflicts as various groups vied for power and prestige. All of these factors were exacerbated by external influence - influx of terrorists, funds and weapons from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and various trans- and supra-national organizations (Al Qaeda, for example).
Under such conditions, the policing work US military and the Iraqi government perform are remarkably succesful. Please note that they are not miracle workers - they are people of relatively limited means, trying to police a state which is being used as battleground by various other states and organizations. The death toll is a few people daily, absolute majority of them killed by terrorists funded and supplied by the aforementioned states and organizations. In the context, the casualties inflicted by Coalition forces are negligible. And Iraq is much better off even now than under Saddam.
In light of the above, your insistence on blaming USA for deaths inflicted by terrorists in Iraq is very peculiar. It is also morally bizzare, I am afraid. An example of a similar situation:
A hires B to kill a random person (C). B does so. Who bears the responsibility for the deed - A, B, A + B or the police officer which has theoretically failed in his duty to protect C. Or perhaps the police officer’s commanders? Or perhaps the government which manages the police?
In my opinion, it is overwhelmingly A + B. The other potential responsibility-bearers are responsible by circumstance - their task would be not penitence but comrehention of the act and implementation of lessons to prevent such acts from re-occurring.
PS
It is oh-so easy to blame USA. The media, academia, prevalent conspiracy theories and general cultural currents all facilitate this.
Raccoon,
Thanks for the lengthy post, very informative.
I’m afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one though. It has nothing to do with me being biased, usually i can be very critical of my own country and would disagree or agree on an issue with someone regardless of their and my background. I’m sure your views are not biased, they are based on what you believe to be facts. Same here. The several facts i mentioned which were the official reasons for this invasion.
Other reasons why i’m blaming Bush are pretty obvious i would have thought. He’s the president, he launched the war, he sent the troops, he sent the bombs. I cannot bame the troops, they’re serving their country.
If any other president launched a war and the result was the same, not to mention the reasons behind the war which we clearly disagree on, would you find his being blamed as peculiar? Whatever happened to responsibility?
I am also blaming the terrorists and think they should be burned alive, but they are terrorists which means they’re not answerable to anyone.
I am well aware of the genocide and the mass killings of kurds and shiats and feel very strongly about this issue actually. I just feel just as strongly about this too.
Seriously, it’s not about the current trend and what’s mainstream and blaming America. A country launches a war it’s responsible for it. I see why your views and mine are so different, we’re both disagreeing on the validity of such a war to begin with as well as the actions and tactics implemented in Iraq. Naturally we’re coming to different conclusions.
Shahrazad - again, please review the “official reasons for the invasion”. Seriously - that which the media says about them now diverges quite badly both from reality and their own reports from before the war.
The war is over and done with. Yes, USA is responsible for their conduct in it - and it was well-fought. The current situation is not war - it is police action, with USA doing their best to aid the nascent Iraqi goverment against terrorists both domestic and external - people who would like to crush this democracy and have a nice little theocracy or autocracy going. USA doesn’t have to do it - they do so because, as I have stated, free and democratic Iraq is vital both to USA and the rest of the free world. They could as well pull out and have the various factions slaughter each other until the aforementioned pleasant regime is established.
They do not do so. They sacrifice tremendous amounts of funds and many American lives in an attempt to save Iraq from both foreign invasions and domestic psychopaths. What would you have them do otherwise?
Not invade and ignore the threat to themselves and the world? Let the minorities rot until Saddam is murdered or dies of natural causes - at which point a civil war would probably be inevitable, as Iraq would’ve become the battleground of KSA and Iran? Seriously - were you the president of the USA, or, better yet, an absolute ruler of USA (the USA President doesn’t do stuff because he wants to - he does stuff because he must) - what would YOU do?
“Thanks for the sarcastic reply, i honestly mean that. It made me laugh.”
Thank you. I try my best.
“If only I knew. The terrorists know. I don’t”
“That’s my point and i’m really glad you used the term terrorists and not muslims.”
I think I always do. I have read the Qur’an, I know what it says about attacking civilians, about the children of Israel, about how to fight a war, and I cannot see
how the terrorists match it.
“It would be too simplistic to just say oh well it’s all the muslims’ fault and not hold the Bush administration accountable too.”
Accountable “too” is wrong. You cannot hold them accountable “too”. You can only hold them accountable for what they actually did. But you cannot hold them
accountable “too” for what others are doing.
“No we don’t need to try the king of Thailand because as you said, he’s not doing any killing. Bush however went to war with a country and years later it’s in the
state it’s in, which in my opinion he is, along with the terrorists, to be held accountable for.”
Yes. He has to be held accountable for the invasion. But holding him accountable for the deeds of others is just plain wrong.
“Who ignored Saddam? To rid Iraq of Saddam was simple enough, my problem is the occupation of Iraq thereafter.”
Without the occupation, the Sunnis and Shi’ites would probably murder each other a lot more than theu currently do. The Iraqi government is not strong enough
yet.
“I’m blaming the terrorists who are Arab and the Bush administration so really it comes down this, i believe the war was wrong and founded on myths of wmd
and AlQaeda etc, you don’t?”
If you were Kurdish you might find the WMDs quite real and the threat believable. And when they did find chemical weapons and protective suits with manuals in
German and Arabic I nearly cried. I was born and grew up in Germany and I couldn’t believe that German poison gas was still used by fascist dictators to kill
human beings. I thought we were done with it. But it was real. However, the press didn’t report much of that.
“I also believe that the regime that launches a war on a country becomes responsible for what happens there. You can’t invade a country and say oops we’re
not to blame for the thousands being massacred on a daily basis.”
In that case the terrorists have already won. They just have to decide where to massacre, and the world will blame America.
“The terrorists are to blame of course but you can’t really expect fanatics and murderers to co-operate. So the responsibility in my opinion lies with the American
government. That’s like me saying that if someone in your street gets killed everyday it’s not the police’s problem!”
It’s the police’s problem, but it is not the police’s fault. The streets of Dublin are dirty because people throw paper on the floor, not because nobody picks it up; if
you get my meaning.
“Another thing we clearly disagree on is whether Bush’s policies and actions in Iraq are right. To me, he ordered the war based on lies,”
Did you even read all of Bush’s positions about the invasion. He mentioned many many reasons, among them a threat of WMDs, the humanitarian situation
etc.. They have not been lies. They did find the mass graves, and the chemicals.
“years later well it is what it is, he’s occupying a country whose people don’t want the American or British troops there,”
Now that can’t be true. The Iraqi president has asked the troops to stay, the Iraqi government is very clear about that too. And the Iraqis voted for these people.
So how can you say that the Iraqis don’t want the troops there? What do you base that statement on? Do you have a more reliable source for Iraqi opinion than
Iraqi elections?
“This is why i think he’s up there with Saddam and should be tried for the thousands killed, the illegal war, the lies told to launch that war.”
You want to try somebody for murders he did not commit. And you don’t even have a moral problem with that. Trying Saddam for the murders he ordered is one
thing, but trying Bush for the murders committed by others and which Bush clearly tried to prevent (let’s face it, deaths in Iraq hurt him politically, he is the last
person who actually WANTS them to happen!) is just plain injustice and anti-Americanism.
You could just as well try the king of Thailand. He didn’t do anything, of course, not even try to stop it.
In Germany many (but too few) people tried to stop the Nazis. Do you think they ought to be tried for failing to stop the Nazis?
“When i was referring to Sunnis and Shias i was referring to the people. All the Iraqis i know are from mixed families, it was never an issue between the people.
It was of course an issue if you’re talking about Saddam or the terrorist groups who’re fighting each other and killing civilians from opposite sides.”
Most Iraqis do not kill each other. But the terrorists still do. Remove the American and British troops and who will protect them? Did you ever think about that? Saddam had to use torture and war to keep the Shi’ite rebels down. The Shi’ites will likely need the same methods to keep Sunni terrorists down. Why is that better than foreign troops that you claim the Iraqis don’t want but that the Iraqis claim they do want?
“A country launches a war it’s responsible for it. ”
So since Saddam’s Iraq launched a war against Kuwait and then violated the cease-fire agreement by shooting at American and British aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones, can we assume that Saddam’s Iraq is to blame for the war it launched?
Sorry, Windows notepad reformatting text strangely… need a better computer at work.
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