I’m in a bad hating mood today.
The Israeli government announced that it plans to build 700 new homes in 2 settlement blocks in the occupied West Bank. Lovely! This is just exactly what we need. So WTH is this supposed to be? Slowly claiming back what’s “rightfully” yours? Raaaight, I know I know. It’s your “ancestoral land”. Well guess what? I don’t give a damn and frankly I’m tired of debating who’s land it is. I don’t care if the land belongs to Jews or Arabs.
You see, the problem is that both of you have your own “accurate” version of history and we all know how both those histories are so different, sorry “similar” and biased ops I meant true. The past is the past and I don’t really care much about it.
Israel today exists whether we like it or not. Kicking all Israelis out and telling them to leave is unrealistic and wrong. Moreover suicide bombing the hell out of innocent Israelis is just sick, disgusting and pure filthy. On the other hand, Israelis talking peace while at the same time continuing to build more settlements on land that isn’t theirs, are a bunch of arrogant hypocrites.
Israelis and pro-Israel people reading this, save that “whatever we do, they’ll still be crazy and violent” argument to yourself please. It’s irrelevant. I don’t care what the result of withdrawing from Gaza was and I’m not interested in it or any other previous results.
Building settlements on Palestinian territory = stealing land. It’s wrong and it’s super wrong. Period! You can criticize and say whatever you want to say but justifying this latest move as okay and saying no problemo is one very big gigantic problemo in my opinion. More stuff related to this here, here and especially here.
Whatever, thieves!
UPDATE: Pffff alright deep breath. I have nothing more to add.
DirtyMuslimBlgr
SudaneseThinker
{ 35 comments… read them below or add one }
hey, you know there was this really good interview on BBC world today with the Sudanese Ambassador to England. He basically got hammered by the interviewer. All his reasoning behing Darfur’s latest actions was questioned and rebutted. It was good. If you get a chance, you should try and watch it. It was on a show called ‘HARDtalk’.
(:
Drima,
You need to turn on your trackbacks….
Drima,
I agree with you on principle. But I think you make it too easy.
“Building settlements on Palestinian territory = stealing land.”
The territory in question was Turkish territory. Turkey lost it to Britain in a war in which Turkey was among the aggressors.
The territory was then taken by Jordan which lost it to Israel.
The only thing that makes the territory “Palestinian” is the fact that Israel granted it autonomy, to an extent.
It could have been Palestinian at any time, if only the Palestinians had accepted it.
And while I believe that the Palestinian territories should be a Palestinian state (and I even now accept the term “Palestinian” to exclude Jews, even though it is a racist definition), I also believe that it is a farce that the Arab nationalist side can start war after war without EVER losing land.
A gambler whose money is returned each time he loses will not give up gambling.
What do you propose?
(As I write this I sit in a hotel room in East-Jerusalem. I just ate in a restaurant with a picture of Arafat behind me. The staff don’t even speak Hebrew. Isn’t it ironic?)
Very little land was ever owned by the people who lived on it. And if it was, why is that just? This land was Jewish before the Babylonians took it. When can you say that the land has its final owner?
Perhaps the UN has the authority to say it. But then the UN ignore their own laws and certainly do nothing to punish those countries that attack Israel on a regular basis. Instead the Americans have to buy the countries off.
If I have to choose who should have the authority to decide whose land it really is, I would chose Israel.
If I chose the UN or the other side, I’d probably not survive here!
LOL
The amusing bit is that this is, apparently, part of the peace accords (roadmap or some such hogwash). Either way, Israel is not going to evacuate 100% to Green Line - that means kicking 200,000 people from their homes. Given the shaky possibility of this bringing anything resembling peace (let’s be frank - it won’t), this will simply NOT happen.
This Raccoon was all for withdrawing from Gaza, including transferring thousands of Jews from there. He thought Fatah will manage to take over there and build stuff, and live in peace. Reality proved to be somewhat different. And, accrodingly, this Raccoon is absolutely opposed to withdrawing from Gaza, and even more opposed to population transfter from there.
Andrew, I had no idea you moved to Israel. I thought you’re still in Ireland.
“I also believe that it is a farce that the Arab nationalist side can start war after war without EVER losing land.”
I agree
“and I even now accept the term “Palestinian” to exclude Jews, even though it is a racist definition”
Hmmm, I never thought about it that way. But Israel is guilty of a little racism too don’t you think? I mean not all Israelis have full citizenship and they’re not allowed to buy all land unless they’re Jewish. Also the fact that any Jew who comes to Israeli immediately gets citizenship, whereas a non-Jew doesn’t shows discrimination. Yes I know it’s supposed to be the Jewish State but still, there are elements of racism there. I’m not trying to bash here. I’m just pointing out that calling Israel a Jewish State is the same as using the word “Palestinian”.
Raccoon,
“hat means kicking 200,000 people from their homes. Given the shaky possibility of this bringing anything resembling peace (let’s be frank - it won’t), this will simply NOT happen.”
Yes, you’re right to some extent.
Regardless though, what’s done in the past is done. Continuing to build on this land is wrong and Israel shouldn’t do it. Why not just build elsewhere? You might be right saying it isn’t easy but I’m still standing by my point. Building such settlements is plain wrong and Israel shoud not do it.
“You need to turn on your trackbacks….”
How? I thought they’re already on =p
“Andrew, I had no idea you moved to Israel. I thought you’re still in Ireland.”
I am just here for the summer. I came five weeks ago, I will return to Ireland in a few days. I studied Hebrew and have been travelling a bit (Haifa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem).
“and I even now accept the term “Palestinian” to exclude Jews, even though it is a racist definition”
“Hmmm, I never thought about it that way. But Israel is guilty of a little racism too don’t you think?”
Yes. See here:
http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=129329
http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=129231
http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=127865
“I mean not all Israelis have full citizenship and they’re not allowed to buy all land unless they’re Jewish.”
All Israelis have the same citizenship, but Arabs don’t have to serve in the military if they don’t want to (Jews and Druze must).
As for the land ownership, I think it’s the other way around. Real land titles here can only be owned by Arabs. Jews have titles limited by the government.
“Also the fact that any Jew who comes to Israeli immediately gets citizenship, whereas a non-Jew doesn’t shows discrimination.”
No. It’s the same in Germany and many other countries. (There are German citizens who are not ethnic Germans and all ethnic Germans can get citizenship automatically.) However, this doesn’t affect citizens, only foreigners.
Also note that absolutely everyone can become Jewish.
“Yes I know it’s supposed to be the Jewish State but still, there are elements of racism there. I’m not trying to bash here. I’m just pointing out that calling Israel a Jewish State is the same as using the word “Palestinian”.”
I think it’s the same as calling Germany a “German state”. It just is. If you can find Israeli laws that really treat minorities (i.e. Arabs) worse, please come forward and tell me. But the only racist law I know is about military service, when Arabs are privileged.
Palestine is the pagan name for a region that was, before the pagans arrived, Jewish land. A “Palestinian” would be an inhabitant of the region. The region was called “Palestine” before the Arabs ever settled there. Why would only Arabs be “Palestinians” now?
Israel is a Jewish state the same way as Jordan is an Arab state. And both countries have minorities. (And both countries are in Palestine.)
Drima -
To address some of your claims about Israeli racism:
1) “I mean not all Israelis have full citizenship” - the only thing I can think of is East Jerusalem Arabs. They were offered full citizenship; those who refused got a special status that grants them most of the rights of a citizen (but not the right to vote). It was their choice. So, this claim is bogus.
2) “and they’re not allowed to buy all land unless they’re Jewish” - plain nonsense. This is some sort of weird blood libel that’s floating around the Arab world.
3) “Also the fact that any Jew who comes to Israeli immediately gets citizenship, whereas a non-Jew doesn’t shows discrimination” no, it doesn’t. It means that Israel is the Jewish ethnic homeland, and therefore Jews have what is called a “right of return” or “repatriation right”. Kind of like if I were to come to Sudan, I would (other than being tortured to death and having my corpse dragged in the streets or something) not have the same rights as you.
4) “there are elements of racism there” - yes, there are. On average, predominantly Muslim settlements in Israel get less funds that Christian, Druze or Jewish ones. Which is fucked up and harmful in the long run (alas, Israel’s motto is Carpe Diem - especially Israeli politicians’. So long run doesn’t feature often in considerations, unfortunately).
5) “I’m just pointing out that calling Israel a Jewish State is the same as using the word “Palestinian”.” - Israel is an ethnic homeland for the Jews. Palestinians are not an ethnicity - like, say, Americans, they are an amalgamation of various ethnicities and cultures. Therefore it’s not the same
Now, about settlements… if there is no peace, there is war (there is no middle ground in this case). How do you wage war against a people who are a weapon? You can either kill them all (unspeakably immoral), reform them (time-consuming and prohibitively expensive), or contain them. Enlarging settlements is part of the third option, as is the security fence, military policing of West Bank, checkpoints, etc.
Is it a good option? No. Are there better options? I am not sure.
Why building more settlements now? I just don’t get it….
apols for straying off the post point slightly, but re land ownership, it’s not so much a ‘weird blood libel’ as a weird real law - I’ve a vague memory that it was somehow connected to the Jewish Agency , something to do with not being able to sell land bought with Zionist funds to non-Jews???, which had a certain internal logic - anyway, according to this article, it was overturned by Israeli courts as unconstitutional six years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/670918.stm
Separately, in East Jerusalem, i think there’s a rule that allows the compulsory purchase of houses from Arab families if it can be proved that Jewish families lived at the property at some point in the past (Palestinians I met there joked about the fear of hearing chisels in the dead of night as wannabe settlers attacked their door frames to prove prior Jewish occupancy - never heard of this happening for real, I hasten to add)
I also think that some ’state’ benefits also used to be tied to military service - in effect excluding Israeli Arabs who chose not to serve. No idea if that’s still the case.
I -
There was some controversy over KKL and land allocations, IIRC. The Beebs article is, as usual, superficial and misleading.
That’s the first I hear about Jerusalem, but it sounds completely unreasonable. *shrug*
Military service, now, that’s a whole different thing. Sure, having served in the military gives you a whole bunch of benefits (especially if you were an officer), most of them conferred by the state - but that’s not rights, that’s privileges. Incidentially, I believe that in Israel electability to government posts should depend on full military service and electability to government itself should depend on one having served as an officer for at least the minimum 4 years (there obviously should be exceptions, but this should be the rule. I would be unelectable according to this, BTW).
” re land ownership, it’s not so much a ‘weird blood libel’ as a weird real law - I’ve a vague memory that it was somehow connected to the Jewish Agency , something to do with not being able to sell land bought with Zionist funds to non-Jews???”
How is what the Jewish Agency do with their own money a “weird real law”? Can you cite the law or are you mixing up somebody’s money with the state of Israel?
“I also think that some ’state’ benefits also used to be tied to military service - in effect excluding Israeli Arabs who chose not to serve.”
Right. Excluding Israelis who chose not to serve. That’s discrimination based on somebody’s achievements. What’s wrong with that?
Alright, I realize this discussion went a litle bit off topic but let’s get something straight.
Both of you, Andrew and Raccoon mention the same points. The only difference is in Raccoon’s point no. 4
“4) “there are elements of racism there” - yes, there are. On average, predominantly Muslim settlements in Israel get less funds that Christian, Druze or Jewish ones. Which is fucked up and harmful in the long run (alas, Israel’s motto is Carpe Diem - especially Israeli politicians’. So long run doesn’t feature often in considerations, unfortunately).”
I understand racism exists everywhere but let’s talk about the legal forms of racism, as in racism and unequality in Israel’s laws. I’ve heard a lot of things about them. Below is an article which brings up the same points that many people told me about. I know how people love to stereotype stuff. So, please tell me to how much of an extent are the mentioned things in this article true.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEN108A.html
There is a lot of propaganda floating around attacking Israel. Is this one of them or is this article acurate?
Since we’re at it, let’s get down the points. I would rather learn about this issue from you guys rather than from the “all knowing accurate” media.
There is racism here, Drima. But much is also based on suspicions that are acknowledged by outcries from many extremist groups that Israel should be destroyed and thus giving more rights (=more power) to those sympathizing with those groups’ ideologies is seen as dangerous.
There is one (arab) knesseth-member who’s behaviour is fortifying these suspicions in an extremely radical manner - Ahmed Tibi - who, for example, calls IN THE KNESSETH itself, for the abduction of more Israeli soldiers….. He’s a sorta enemy from within - so, just handing grounds to stay suspicious. Meaning = not many want to stick their head into this problem of racism, since the ones being discriminated are represented by people like that man, who are racist themselves…..
Tse.
“But the real issue is the Israeli military occupation of Palestine–not only that it is inherently violent and a violation of international law and contrary to United Nations resolutions. Even if Israel used only proportionate violence, it would still be absolutely illegal, because the occupation of Palestinian land is illegal.”
Do you expect this guy to make a valid point when the first paragraph is already a lie?
1. A military occupation is not “inherently violent”. I grew up under military occupation and I have seen no violence as a child.
2. Occupying territory won in a defensive war is not against international law and has never been. I would like the author to quote the particular law he wants to be seen as referring to. But he obviously doesn’t. (In fact the United Nations were founded as the representation of the five powers that won World War II and OCCUPIED the countries that lost PLUS kept some of the territories for good. It is a strange world where the UN would outlaw that which the UN was founded to do!)
3. If there is a United Nations resolution declaring the occupation illegal, the resolution would a) be in violation of international law (see number 2) and b) be against the peace treaty between Israel and the PA which acknowledges the occupation as legal.
4. His conclusion is a lie since there is no such thing as “absolutely illegal” (something is either legal or illegal, there are no superlatives) and since a) occupation of another country is NOT and has NEVER been illegal and b) there is no such thing as “Palestinian land”. There would have been had the Arabs accepted the partition plan for Palestine.
There is a certain irony in the fact that although the interviewee in that article claims that Jews from Yemen suffer from discrimination in Israel, the only thing I have heard here in relation to Yemenite Jews was that they are the only ones who speak really excellent Hebrew!
Perhaps the interviewee should have spent more time in an Ulpan in Israel?
“Ahmed Tibi - who, for example, calls IN THE KNESSETH itself, for the abduction of more Israeli soldiers….. He’s a sorta enemy from within”
Now that’s some interesting crap.
Andrew, I guess I’ll take that as a “no, this article isn’t accurate”.
“Andrew, I guess I’ll take that as a “no, this article isn’t accurate”. ”
I posted a longer reply, but your site said that a spam filter got it and an administrator had to confirm it. I don’t know what happened to it.
Happened to me twice:
Sorry, but your comment has been flagged by the spam filter running on this blog: this might be an error, in which case all apologies. Your comment will be presented to the blog admin who will be able to restore it immediately.
You may want to contact the blog admin via e-mail to notify him.
Drima - that article is utter and complete bullshit (just another self-hating Jew - self-loathing is our ethnic affliction, it seems). That which is not an outright lie is a twist of truth: for instance, the ID cards. Everyone has to carry them (to be presented to police at request) and it has all kinds of info about you (like name, names of parents, place of birth, gender, martial status, etc). One of the categories is “nationality”, which just has a bunch of asteriks in it. Until 2002, though, it had your national (as opposed to citizenship) affiliation in it - that is, Jew, Arab, Druze, Swede, etc. It served very little purpose and was pretty stupid in general.
http://www.jrf.org/israel/independence-day-study.html for more info about ID cards.
The notion of discrimination against Jews from different Diasporic communities is amusing. It existed, and every new community of Jews arriving in Israel cried discrimination (except for the Indian Jews, I think). Some were actually discriminated against (Sepharadic Jews in the 50s and 60s). This has vanished as these communities were absorbed in the greater Israeli society.
So, basically, the whole article is total and complete slanderous lie. The only real discrimination is, as I have said, allocation of funds to Muslim settlements. And the horrible racism of Israeli Arabs against Jews, Druze, Bedouins and Circassians - which is, alas, very common.
The whole 5th column thing is an entirely different barrel of poisonous eels… Israel should rewrite the laws regardging incitement, sedition, acts of treason and basic requirements for government positions (especially Knesset). Virtually all Arab leaders are pretty openly pro-terrorist and anti-Israel, including the fucks that are in Knesset. They don’t care about the people who voted them in, it seems - which is why many Israeli Arabs vote for non-Arab parties (like Sha”s, who actually take care of Arabs despite being a party of psychotic religious fundies).
Andrew - Yemenite Jews were in Ulpans half a century ago…this is like talking about integration of American Irish or something. Sheleg eshtakad.
With all of the above, there is racism towards Arabs in Israel on a personal level. Most Jews don’t trust Arabs nowadays, don’t feel comfortable near Arabs, and would rather have as little contact as possible. I guess it can be called racism, even if it has its obvious reasons (like the reason why Arabs from the North of Israel will not go into Umm-al-Fahem). An Arab friend of mine (really bright fellow, went to work for the UN, unfortunately) told me that the reception clerk at Hebrew University of Jerusalem was racist against him when he first started studying there - she did not want to quarter him with Jews, and he had to fight with her to get what he wanted.
Dude, I just wrong a bloody long post and it was marked as spam? WTF?
Crap?
Ya crap. As in utter bullshit/garbage//nonsense?
I know I know my vocabulary is a little weird.
Hey Drima,
That article you posted doesn’t actually mention any specific laws. It’s all a bit vague, and the interviewer and the interviewee seem to simply be agreeing with each other. I’m not denying that you will encounter racism here, but I cannot think of a single statute that specifically discriminates against any minority group - in fact, such a law would negate the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty, which is one of the laws that make up Israeli constitutional law (we don’t have a constitution, we have “Basic Laws” that set out essential constitutional principles). Since the interviewee in this article doesn’t cite any references, it seems that all we have to go on are his personal views. That’s all very well, but he might as well be saying that green is yellow - without a frame of reference, how could we know whether he’s right or wrong?
Secondly, the BBC article you cited seems to rely, as its source, on an advertisement. The only quote that they seemed to be able to find was one by Olmert who, having lost the war against Hezbollah, could hardly turn around and say to the country “right, well after that stunning success, let’s continue with pulling out of the West Bank”. He correctly noted that this is not the time for that. He did *not* say, ’so we’re gonna go and build us some more settlements and piss everyone off’. Not even the Beeb could make up a quote like that. So being unale to find an actual government statement (and this from a government that makes statements even when there’s nothing to talk about), they base their “news”on an ad placed in a newspaper? (and don’t even say which newspaper …)
Scraping the bottom of the barrel if you ask me …
Appologies to everyone. I’m still getting used to this new blog and I had no idea I had more than 10 comments waiting to be de-spammed. I was wondering where the hell all the comments went. Anyways I’ll try to fix. On the other hand I’ve got to go over all the comments you guys wrote. I’ll reply later. C ya ;)!
Googling Jewish National Fund (KKL) rather than Jewish Agency much more helpful, thanks Racoon (I’ve never been that au fait with zionist organisations, took a good five clicks to realise IIRC wasn’t an acronym for another one; anyway something between this, this , this and this seems more useful to the debate than the article above imo
I’ll try to find something more on Jerusalem at the weekend when I’ve more time - iirc it tied into pre 1947 - post 1967 lack of property records; the context I was I told about it was while watching people who were part of the settler movement gather by the Jaffa Gate waiting for an armed escort to their homes in the Muslim and Christian quarters of the old city, more than 10 years ago though. Sad sight on many levels.
On racism et al question, I lack the authority of Israeli or Palestinians ‘on the ground’ , but I do get the impression that in the past decade Israeli Arabs have been much more vocal and been able to challenge and overturn with the support of broader Israeli left some injustices institutionalised through the role of Zionist movement in the establishment of Israel, eg JNF rules. (jeez, ‘orrible mouthful_!)
The two common ‘prejudice’ accusations I remember hearing about are IDF related benefits that in elsewhere might be ‘welfare state benefits’ and trade union benefits (though iirc again I think that affected more Palestinian day labourers paying ‘taxes/ national insurance style ‘union’ dues’ they couldn’t benefit from on wages in Israel - and changed when the PA was established (not to mention the ‘borders’ were closed).
ok, my reply to Racoon got swallowed by the spam filter, but was posted before Mr Brehm’s reply to my 1st post appeared, so if there’s overlap, or a strange order here, if either of these two posts ever do appear, that’s why.
@ Brehm; ‘weird’, my bad maybe, but I thought ‘blood libel’ was a bit strong a condemnation of a common claim (I’m not supporting the claim here btw, just suggesting its origins)
As Racoon pointed out, I confused the Jewish Agency with the Jewish National Fund (JNF/KKL)
In essence, as I understand it currently, about 14 pc of Israeli state land (I’m excluding the administrated/occupied terriorities/ Judea and Samaria here, just because the sources I read did) can’t be leased to non-Jews because it’s ultimately owned by the JNF, whose Zionist charter prevents this. (which, AS I SAID ORGINALLY, is logical imo. )
This “mixing up” of the JNF’s assets and the Israeli state’s aint down to me, it dates back to the 1960s when the state took over the management of the JNF land. ( see ILA website for more on the laws involved - i’d try to link, but fear the spam filter
And, in recent years and in the courts in particular, there seems to have been serious moves in Israel to correct the bias against Arabs that resulted from this legal situation, eg by swapping urban JNF land with rural state land. (jnf wikipedia cites sources for this)
Re military service and benefits/priveldges, WHERE did I say it was wrong for a state to decide to do this?
I would genuinely be interested in knowing a bit more about what the actual priveldges are though, as it is another common claim…
Jeez, I hope you don’t blow too many gaskets if my last post ever makes it through the filter..
suddenly worried Jeez could be seen as an inappropiate comment hereabouts. Apols if so.
and, more seriously, apols Drima - I came over here to learn more about Sudan, then you went and posted on this, and (sort of) enabled comments…
This is getting more confusing. Who is “I”?
it’s not crap, drima
he really said so…
I - to the best of my knowledge, military service is unrelated to unions (although it would not surprise me if some unions are tying membership and/or benefits to military service). Basically, if you didn’t serve in the army, you’ll have a problem with sercurity-related jobs, and won’t get the benefits newly released soldiers get (like aid with finding a job, education loans, etc).
Additionally, there are many companies not related to security that won’t hire someone who didn’t serve in the military. And some companies will hire only officers (my mother-in-law’s neighbor hires only pilots, for instance). But that’s a different problem, and has got to do with Israeli culture being basically based on the military.
Damn. Okay now this is a mess. I freaking hate this annoying bullshit called spam filter… Grrrrrr
It’s bugging the hell out of me.
Thanks for the comments and the various links guys. They help in clarifying things.
I’ll try to fix this spam thingy soon.
no one in particular, mostly a lurker…
.. crap, only just realised lower case l looks a damn sight like an upper case i
sorry from dunce’s corner
“and has got to do with Israeli culture being basically based on the military.”
Carefull with your words Raccoony. Someone might just take them out of context and use them against you.
Drima - hey, I am sure that people would if I had any importance whatsover… but I am enjoying the previlege of the obscure garbage- munchers: to say whatever the hell I want
The Israeli society is based on the military, though, there’s no doubt about it. The absolute majority of people have served in the army. Many of the connections you make for later life are from the army. And for many people, the personality solidifies in the army, too (18-21 are extremely influential years). This has its ups and its downs… but it’s just the way things are. You gain in maturity and decisiveness, you lose in sanity and tenderness.
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