666

Today is the 6th of June 2006. Muahaha the day of the Devil! Let’s hope the day ends without any major terrorist attack or evil thing occuring. =p

UPDATE: Please scroll down and check the update I made on the post Reggae Music & Zionism: Connection??! I added a link to the video of the song “Road To Zion” by Damian Marley (son of Bob Marley). I’m telling you people I realy do think there’s a strong connection between Reggae and Judaism. Let’s figure it out shall we =)

28 Responses to “666”

1. rated r superstar on June 6th, 2006 2:03 am

   drima,
   On Big Pharaoh’s blog you indicated that I had been brainwashed by anti-islamic propaganda. Having read the koran 4 times and spent a few years developing a familiarity with many of the hadiths, I was wondering if you’d be willing to address a problem or two that I have with islam. I have read your blog often and found you to be an articulate, reasonable man which is why i ask you.

2. Drima on June 6th, 2006 5:28 am

   rated r superstar, I appreciate you approaching me regarding this issue. I’m also impressed by the fact that you have read the Koran 4 times and dug into the Hadith. The Koran does have verses calling for violence against un believers. If you simply read those verses as they’re then the terrorists must surely be rightfully following what the Koran commands. However what those filthy terrorists and many other well meaning but misunderstanding individuals miss is the right methodology when interpreting the Koran. Such verses MUST be interpreted in their historical context. The CANNOT be taken out of it. That’s what terrorists do. They refuse to understand the context of those verses.

   The verses in the Koran that call for attacking the un believers were revealed during a time when Prophet Muhammad was being oppressed by the un believers. The Muslims didn’t know what to do and were asking the Prophet for a solution. He always told them to be patient and try to discuss a peace or truce. When things went too far, Allah revealed verses in the Koran giving Muslims the permission to defend themselves against the un believers. Those specific verses you read that remain in the Koran until this day and became a part of it are the ones that were revealed during the circumstances I just described to you. The historical context of many verses and the reasons they were revealed in MUST be included when interpreting.

   Believe it or not previously 7 years ago I as a Muslim got surprised when reading such seemingly violent verses. I would sit wondering sometimes as to why the Koran would say such things. My father is a professor and I’m lucky to have a knowledgeable balanced person like him to provide me answers to these questions. I decided to ask him about the verses. He explained to me the verses as I did to you just now. He went over each and every single one of them and the reasons they were revealed. Just because the Koran gave Muslims the right to defend themselves and attack un believers centuries ago isn’t an excuse to bomb un believers today. I hate that sickening and disgusting attitude. I hate it.

   If my father was an extremist person blinded by hatred to the west, he would have probably explained the verses to me in a very different way. I might have ended up getting influenced and becoming a different person today. Thankfully I grew up in an environment that taught me the real values of Islam. I saw Islam practiced around me in a very moderate and balanced way. I love my religion dearly and I practice it in the proper way I believe. Unfortunately many Muslims didn’t and still don’t grow up in a conducive and moderate environment.

   The reason I made this blog and why I rant are because it’s part of my belief system. I am tolerant and peacefull towards others who believe differently than I do not just because those are basic values of humanity but because to me they’re basic values of Islamic teachings.

   You must understand something and that is people will end up seeing their religion and interpreting it in a way to make it compatible with their belief systems. Terrorists think they truly are carrying a holy war that will end them up in heaven. I believe they’ll burn in hell for all eternity. Even though Muslims in general apply Islam in a way contradicting to Islamic beliefs, I beg you to realize that those who go to the dirty extremes of terrorism are a small fraction. I understand the pain inflicted upon your people because of the extreme nature of some of my people. However please understand that it is offensive to Muslims like me and many others who practice Islam moderately (as it is supposed to be) when someone insults or points the finger to Islam itself. There are verses in the Torah and Bible that call for the violence against un believers. There are also in my opinion seemingly weird verses and things in them. If some Jews and Christians carry out some nasty actions I will not point the finger at their religions. All religions I believe teach the same basic values. Respect, compassion and tolerance. No 2 people believe the same things and have the same character. As such it is important to respect one another and be tolerant.

   Islam is not the problem. It is people who use the verses in it and twist their meanings and context to satisfy their own agendas. When I hear the word Islam, it symbolizes peace and stillness of heart to me. It means acceptance and tolerance. To New Yorkers it will probably send chills up and down their spines and the images that will flash before their eyes are that of September 11th. Just open your eyes and see something. Most victims of terrorism are Muslims themselves. I keep my identity anonymous because believe it or not, I fear for my life the terrorist nature of those filthy extremist.

   The enemy is ignorance and extremism.

   OUR enemy is ignorance and extremism.
   

3. Drima on June 6th, 2006 5:52 am

   I would probably advice that you as a non Muslim probably shouldn’t visit websites that promote Muslims in a negative way and at the same time shouldn’t visit websites that promote Muslims in a positive way. An example is me getting to know America by watching The Apprentice and Friends on one hand or on the other hand by watching movies like American History X and Crash. Try to check something balanced. Application wise in terms of the religion I will have to admit that we Muslims are pretty screwed. Majority of Muslims don’t practice the religion properly and are doing sickening things. Yes, we are majorly screwed. I hate to say it but if we are going to improve ourselves we MUST be self critical. We MUST. That’s why I appreciate blogs like BP’s and SM’s. We have a lot of things to fix in ourselves. No doubt about that.

4. The Raccoon on June 6th, 2006 8:16 am

   Drima - religion is… problematic. Almost any religion. I have recently had a fascinating discussion about this with DNA:
   http://www.mindbleed.com/?p=30#comments

   You see, what you do is explain away large parts of Islam as inappropriate for modernity by placing them “in context”, etc; but the Koran is seen as perfect, complete and immaculate. Your attitude, alas, is but a thin skin stretched over an abyss.

   There was a similar process in Judaism, BTW, which had some success. Check out Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (AKA Maimondes, AKA Rambam) and Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki (AKA Rashi), and also Reformist Judaism. But the difference is that the Tanach is not seen as divine, but rather divine-inspired. Not that it has really helped Judaism - people still won’t throw a light switch during Shabbat because it’s “work”. Stupid fucks
   There are no answers. Only questions.

5. Leilouta on June 6th, 2006 9:44 am

   Drima said…I will have to admit that we Muslims are pretty screwed.

   Hahahaha

6. Tsedek on June 6th, 2006 9:54 am

   I agree with you, Drima. 100%.
   And, Raccoon- it doesn’t count what the results were of past violence in the name of any religion, in EVERY religion peace is preached besides passages that can be hijacked for violence but it is our test in this life to chose the right way. Each in their own religion. I truely think that’s THE answer. It depends where one puts the accent.

   I don’t believe Islam is cruel, I don’t believe Judaism is cruel and I don’t believe Christianity is cruel. Who are cruel are the people misusing those religions for their own benefit.

   Tse.

   http://www.islamawareness.net/MusChristRelations/reflections.html

7. The Raccoon on June 6th, 2006 10:39 am

   Tsedek - my argument has nothing to do with past savagery inflicted by adherents of a specific religion. It’s got everything to do, however, with the mental slavery - the attitude of unthinking obedience and the unquestioning regurgitation of ready-made answers - that characterize many religions. In particular, the Abrahamic ones - Judaism, Christianity and Islam (in order of appearence :).

   Moreover, the violence is in the very BASIS of these religions - Muhammad’s murderous sprees, the wholesale slaughter on Yahwe’s decrees in the Old Testament and the foundation of Christianity in a violent Jewish uprising. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Jesus was cool, apparently, except for the violent outburst in the Temple - but mind the Old Testament and note that it’s the same God.

   No, my friend, it is more likely that good people like Drima are the “highjackers” and misinterpreters of religion than people like the founders of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

   And yes, individualization of religion is, indeed, the answer. But it’s too foreign and dangerous for the tribal mindset promoted by most religions. And it is too dangerous for the multitude of corrupt fucks that use religion as a lever for their personal quest of wealth and power. And it is too dangerous for the religious institution itself - and institutions are ferocious beasts when threatened!

   I have (with the good guidance of Eris studied many religions, and found them lacking and guilty of mental enslavement, dogmatic rigidity and dehumanization.

   I am truly sorry if I am offending anyone - but I speak my mind as I know it. If people want to practice these religions, it is their problem, as long as they don’t try to harm the Raccoon.

   Peace out.

8. Tsedek on June 6th, 2006 12:54 pm

   Unthinking disobedience was the tool when communications technologies were not yet invented and people relied on “wise men”. Maybe it looks stupid but since I’m active on internet (close to 4 years now - quite intensively) I’ve found -from all religions and all over the world- masses of religious (I don’t know to which extent though) people who find peace in their religion - because they believe it preaches peace. So, maybe to you it looks like the extremists are interpreting the holy books correctly, but how come then that so many individuals do not share those interpretations?

   And yes, in the holy books terrible violence occured, but put it into place - timeframed. If you don’t, you indeed follow the extremists interpretations and that’ll make them win. Maybe they’re still strong now - but without a strong and steadfast alternative moderate voice that stands up to them, they’ll stay strong forever (which means forever deciding for and over us - which is as much as forever being in war… )

   Showing peace by practicing it with respect is the strongest weapon to defeat extremism. Respect - eventhough your conclusion of the “many religions” is so very bad, because everybody living now needs a chance to do better without being judged upon past occurences that made you come to that conclusion.

   Tse.

9. Miss Carnivorous on June 6th, 2006 12:58 pm

   I am lucky to be working in a building built in the 1950’s as a bomb shelter. I am worried about the rest of you, though, so heads up!!!

10. Drima on June 6th, 2006 2:42 pm

    The majority of Muslims just want to live out their lives in peace with others. They want to be able to have a decent life and feed their families. Only a minority are exremists. They’re extremists because they’re the ones who have hijacked the religion. I believe I’m following my religion rightfully. I find much peace in it. =)

11. rated r superstar on June 6th, 2006 3:05 pm

    Drima,
    Thank you for your prompt reply. I am used to Muslims who become irrational and even threaten me with violence when I try to debate online certain aspects of the Quran. I have also discovered many muslims such as you who are reasonable and willing to try to see things from a non muslim point of view. That is a great quality.
    Regarding your assertion that the violent aspects had to be seen in context, the main problem I have with this assertion is that if Islam was indeed ‘from God’ could God not do his own ‘dirty work’ so to speak. Instead of ordering his followers to commit acts of violence that would call into question their values, why didn’t he just wipe out the enemies of islam himself? Was he testing the faith of his followers and,if so, why would he need to test them? Being omniscient he should have known already the depth of their faith.
    Also, it is all well and good that you can say that verses like quran 47:04 or quran 8:65 that says muslims should fight and kill the unbelievers wherever you find them only applied to the early days when Islam was ‘under attack’(I personally believe Islam was the aggressor but that is beside the point.) However, who is to say that your interpretation is correct. Nowhere did the prophet say such violence applied only to those circumstances. In fact quran 2:193 states that the slaughter should continue until only islam remains.
    A quick and final note.It may be possible to justify the violence in the Koran but how can you justify Sahih Bukhari hadith 7.88? In that Hadith it states that Muhammed consummated his relationship with Ayesha when she was just 9 years old. If that was acceptable then, wasn’t Muhammed, as a prophet, expected to set a better example than to engage in sexual relations with a child? Is this hadith wrong?? The Bukhari hadiths are regarded as the most reliable. Anxiously awaiting your reply.

12. rated r superstar on June 6th, 2006 3:28 pm

    btw drima my mistake I should point out that haddith is volume 7 book 62:088
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.088

13. The Raccoon on June 6th, 2006 5:08 pm

    Tse and Drima -

    I respect both of you guys. As I do all living beings - even mosquitoes. And yes - many find peace in their religion; the security of having an answer is a peaceful thing.

    Drima - your religion is individualized my friend. And it is a beautiful thing. I just wish more would agree with you From my experience most people don’t - but then again most people don’t enjoy independent thought. It is oh-so-much-easier to accept the words of the Mullah or the Rabbi or the preacher.
    And I am absolutely certain that the absolute majority of Muslims just want to live good lives… but all too many do not accept the price of a good life (such as having others do things which are disagreeable - being gay and such :). There is a fascinating mention for the reason of the continued conflict in Somalia in some interviews that the guy that wrote “Black Hawk Down” did. The Somalis all told him that they wanted peace - but peace at THEIR terms. Sad but apparently true.

    And the extremists are having it too easy in the Muslim world - there are almost no Muslims that are willing to stand up to the bearded-and-armed ones. It is a pity, and I do wonder where this… silent acceptance comes from. And I believe (from discussions with various Muslims) that it comes from the understanding that the extremists’ interpetations have very solid basing in the canons.

    Tse -

    I am not judging religions according to the past actions of their followers. I am judging religions by the merits of their holy texts. It is these that constitute the basis of the aforementioned religions - and it is these that I find… problematic. Although some of them are really beautifully written. The poetry of the Quran is good (the way it sounds - I am used to listening to the Moazin before bed :); and David’s Lament is one of the best examples of Hebrew poetry - powerful and moving and with an amazing rhythm… it’s a beautifully choreographed dance of sounds
    And yet I stand by what I have said - the tolerance and humanity of Drima is but one side of the religion. It’s so easy to flip to the other side - especially since it’s got at least as much legitimization in the holy texts.

    Again I deeply apologize if I offend.

    Peace out.

14. tommy on June 6th, 2006 6:41 pm

    666?

    Happy birthday Drima!

15. Qatar Cat on June 6th, 2006 11:27 pm

    Happy devil’s day!

    :p

16. Tsedek on June 7th, 2006 4:21 am

    Raccoon, you can’t possibly judge religions by the merits of their holy texts. Religion is no science. It needs feelings, sentiments, believe - in order to completely understand the meaning of what’s written.

    B.t.w.: doesn’t everything have two sides? Whether it’s religion, politics, most decisions we take etc.?

    Tse.

17. The Raccoon on June 7th, 2006 5:08 am

    Tsedek -

    Again, we hit the institutionalized vs. personalized religion. Yes, a personalized religion - one in which a person can pick and choose from the holy texts, explain away some things and generally decide for oneself what kind of a religion it is - needs sentiments and feelings and faith. This is obviously Drima’s approach, and it is a most commendable thing.

    But what of the institutionalized religion - which, as I have stated above, constitutes most of the faith on Earth? A religion in which one is given a book and told “This is a book written by God. It is absolutely, utterly and completely true, with no reservations or additions. Govern your every thought and action according to this book.” Where do feelings and sentiments enter this picture? When a religious Jew centers his life around the 613 commandments, he doesn’t need to think about them - he needs to obey. When a Muslim lives his life according to the Koran, there is no need for thought - only for obedience.

    And then you get the internal conflict:

    A) The text is supposed to be perfect in all aspects.
    B) The text calls for peace and tolerance.
    C) The text calls for the slaughter of all the unbelievers.

    B+C are obviously and glaringly incompatiable. But, since we have A, they MUST be. Enter insanity. See?

    And yes, everything has two sides, so to speak. Lao Tze put it beautifully - “there are no mountains without valleys”. But members of Abrahamic religions are not Taoists, mate. There is no concept of Tao - of the all-encompassing Void that is all and nothing and much more - in these religions. It’s an either/or world, unfortunately. Hence, the Children’s Crusade. Hence, Jihad.

    A side note - 666 is Gematria for Nero Caesar (nicknamed the Beast). The Jews (and many others) of that time feared that Nero, who was rabidly anti-Semitic, is not dead but exiled. There was a persistent rumor, apparently, that Nero is building an army somewhere and will return to reclaim Rome - a most dreaded prospect, especially for the Jews.

    Enter the Book of Revelations, a revolutionary Jewish pamphlet from the times of the Second Judean Rebellion - warning of the imminent return of the dreaded Nero. 666, the number of “The Beast”

18. Drima on June 7th, 2006 8:55 am

    rated r superstar, this is the verse you told me about. I provide its translation here. It is from the longest Surah in the Quran which is named “The Cow”.

    (2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.)

    Again historical context can’t be excluded. Also “The Cow” is a very long Surah and as such the verse must be interpreted together with the “flow” of the Surah. The key words in this verse are “fight them”. I’m guessing you interpret that “them” refers to the un believers as a whole and throughout all time. In fact it refers again to the un believers of that time who oppressed and persecuted the Muslims. This verse was revealed during the time when Muslims were about to reclaim back Mecca and cleanse the Ka’aba from the idol worshippers. The Muslims were instructed and given permission to fight again. However this time the fight wasn’t meant to be a single battle but a fight to end the oppression and persecution once and for all. Mecca and Ka’aba were meant to be for Allah and not for idols. After they were reclaimed, there was to be no hostility against the un believers who still lived there and who were fighting the Muslims previously. There was to be hostility only towards wrong doers.

    Think about it logically. Right now who are the oppressors, American “infidels” or corrupt Muslim dictators ruling many Arab countries? Also if “them” refered to un believers anytime and anywhere then why do many Muslims kill other Muslims?

    Regarding the Hadith. Believe it or not it’s true. I was so shocked myself when I found out about it previously. It just seemed so wrong to me. Could our Prophet have been a child molester?? To get the answer I asked my mother this time. She said even though at this current time the practice of child marriages is un-natural, during those olden times it was perfectly normal. Check the history of many kings in ancient civilzations to see the similarities. Heck, my own maternal grand mother got married when she was only 12. She had my mother when she was about 18. I have to admit though that here in this case Aysha was very young indeed. However Aysha was known for being very smart, matured and wise in terms of thinking. Also the Prophet never had intercourse with her only until years later when she physically matured. That is a VERY important point people miss out.

    As for the omniscient part… well… it’s a very heated and never ending debate. I discussed something similar to it in my previous post (The Government Eats While The Population Starves)

    http://sudanesethinker.blogspot.com/2006/06/government-eats-while-population.html

    “Allah is omniscient” is the popular belief amongst many Muslims but when thought about criticaly it’s very troubling even for me. It all mainly comes to predestination VS choice. If God knows where each of us will end up ie. in hell or heaven, then what’s the point of following good or bad and being tested in this life. I’m afraid that I don’t have the answer for that one. I’m also afraid when thinking about it, you probably won’t reach a logical conclusion. It’s a big question mark. I believe we must take responsibility for our actions. On why Allah didn’t destroy the un-believers himself… well… where will the test be? If God appeared now to all of us we wouldn’t be even discussing this would we? That’s where faith comes in. I’ve never seen heaven, hell or God Himself and yet I have faith they exist. I can never accept the idea that after we die that will be it, nothing more and nothing after that. It doesn’t make sense to me.

    On a final note, terrorists claim to be waging the war against America because the Koran supports it, well guess what… I support America’s war against terror because I believe in many ways the Koran supports it. Here’s a link you can check on the matter. I highly reccommend it.

    http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm

    It all comes down to interpretation and what the individual chooses to believe and see in the religion. The process of concluding and believing something IS simpley nothing more than a CHOICE.

    I beg you to think about what I said. I’m not asking you to believe that Islam is the choosen religion or something like that. All I’m asking you to think about is that people like me and many other moderate peacefull Muslims are the way we are because we believe we follow the Koran rightfully. We believe the filthy terrorists are the ones who hijacked our religion and are our sworn enemies for using it as an excuse to carry out their destructive campaigns.

    Islam is going through a time of struggle and “soul searching”. Christianity went through the same during the times of the crusades when many crusaders did very un-Christian things in the name of Christianity. Islam will eventually find its way.

    Koran- “There’s no compulsion in religon”.

    Religion is not a set of do’s and don’ts but rather essentially a deep sense of peace and stillness of heart.

19. Drima on June 7th, 2006 9:03 am

    Raccoon, don’t worry dude. No offence caused at all =). However bro, I think just because something was established through use of force isn’t a reason to dismiss it. Just check the history of the establishments of US and even Israel. There were a lot of atrocities committed. In America, slavery, wiping out great numbers of the red Indians with disease infected blankets, forced labour, killings etc. In Israel forced evictions of Palestinians, extremist Jews calling for death of all Arabs, Muslims etc.

    Just because your great grand daddy had a problem with my grand daddy isn’t a justification for me to hate you today. The past is the past. We can’t keep bringing it up to poison the present. As I said to rated r superstar: It all comes down to interpretation and what the individual chooses to believe and see in the religion. The process of concluding and believing something IS simpley nothing more than a CHOICE.

20. rated r superstar on June 7th, 2006 6:05 pm

    Drima,
    You have a deal. I will leave this thread so you can devote more time to other topics. I think we both accomplished what we wanted to accomplish. I had a desire to explain why I have a huge problem with islam and its teachings and I think I succeeded. You, on the other hand, wanted to demonstrate that a peaceful humane interpretation of the Koran is possible. You made valid points to that end.
    Funny that you mentioned the whole predestination-free will paradox. Pondering that idea is what turned me away from being a devout christian to one who is a committed atheist. I majored in Math in college and work as a Computer Programmer so logic is my background. To me, Anything that defies logic cannot be real. Regarding the whole afterlife thing, personally even if it existed I’d want neither heaven or hell. But that is just me and my humble opinion.
    Thank you for your articulate and gracious debate

21. Tsedek on June 7th, 2006 7:43 pm

    Raccoon, I find this not contradicting.

    “one is given a book and told “This is a book written by God. It is absolutely, utterly and completely true, with no reservations or additions. Govern your every thought and action according to this book.” Where do feelings and sentiments enter this picture?”
    It’s like the law. But, besides the law your life evolves and you’ve always got the law to guide you. Life isn’t just sitting and reading every day from holy books, it isn’t just praying all day… in life you get to meet many occasions in which you could use some help of accepted rules to make decisions easier. Jews don’t perform their mitzvot from morning till evening.. (at least not the non-chassidic ones). They live. And, use the mitzvot during their everyday life.

    “When a Muslim lives his life according to the Koran, there is no need for thought - only for obedience.” of course there is. Only observing how many wise men in Islam are saying different things all together makes it not institutionalized, but shows thought.

    “A) The text is supposed to be perfect in all aspects.
    B) The text calls for peace and tolerance.
    C) The text calls for the slaughter of all the unbelievers.”

    Does it? Call for the slaughter of all the unbelievers? I just don’t think so… I’m certainly no expert on Islam (I know very little about it) but comparing it to quotes I seen quoted from internet sites about the talmud that are so wayyy outta context that the original meaning was turned upside down, and became something meaning the opposite, I’m very eager to believe that this is being done by non-muslims as well with quotes of the Quran of Ahadith.

    Sorry, although I do appreciate your response - I still don’t see a contradiction to what I believe is true: two ways in every religion: the good and the bad - and up to the people to chose - and that’s their test. I don’t see two Islam’s but one. With two ways. But still both ways open to everyone.

    thx again,
    Tse.

22. Drima on June 8th, 2006 12:50 am

    ” two ways in every religion: the good and the bad - and up to the people to chose - and that’s their test. ”

    Tse, thanx. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

    Anyways, again Raccoon don’t worry bro, no offence caused. I respect your opinion even though we may disagree. Where will the fun of debating be if we agreed on everything

23. The Raccoon on June 8th, 2006 4:38 am

    Tsedek -

    There are some things in the Koran, like the infamous Sura 9:29, that are very difficult to interpret in a way that’s different from “Yup. Gotta kill the unbelievers”. I have been studying the Koran and assorted Jihadist documents, as well as sermons preaching violence. I have ignored the Hadiths (which more readily support violence) because their authority is secondary to Koran.
    Unfortunately, I found that the Koran justifies the calls for violence and intolerance with tenacity, while disputing these calls takes some rhetorical squirming.

    And about one Islam, two ways: enter the theological conundrum that even Rashi couldn’t explain adequately. Namely:

    If God is omniscient, omnipotent and all-merciful in addition to being the creator of everything… how can there be so much suffering in the world?

    To elaborate:
    If God, with His/Her (Shaddai, anyone infinite computing power created the world down to the last Quark, He/She should have been able to predict every occurance from the Big Bang until Entropy stops time (it’s kind of like The Indredible Machine. See Chaos Physics). Therefore, He/She DELIBERATELY made the world into the shithole it is. Therefore He/She cannot be all-merciful, and is actually quite a nasty piece of work.

    Rashi reasoned that there are two forces acting on the world: God and Free Will, with God having predetermined the environment and with Free Will guiding the actions of humans.

    What he did not take into account, however, is that the Free Will is influenced by the environment to a huge degree - it is, in fact, part genetics and part enviromental influence. Hence, Free Will can be predicted with adequate computing power (see omniscient and omnipotent deity) and therefore can be predetermined; Free Will is, in fact, an illusion. An omnipotent and omniscient divinity is, hence, fully responsible for the world, and therefore cannot be all-merciful.

    Ergo: God is either omnipotent or all-merciful, not both.

    Now, Tse, about the assorted wise men of Islamic thought:
    A thing is either haram or halal. Since the Koran is a book, it is limited in its scope. And since its written with great ambiguity on many matters, often contradicting itself, assorted Islamic theologists have taken it unto themselves to properly interpret the Koran. And then there’s the Hadiths, which support cconflicting notions as well.

    I must admit that I am an anti-Ideologist: I resent any solidified system. Hail Eris!
    Drima - awwwwwwww *cuddle*

24. rated r superstar on June 8th, 2006 7:13 pm

    Racoon,
    very cogent points. My argument in itself is that if god knows everything then it would follow that long before any of us are even born he knows who will be saved and who will be damned. Therefore, if god knows that say you or me will be damned, there is no way to change that reality without negating the notion of god’s omniscience. Hence for god to exist and be omniscience means that free will cannot exist and vice versa.
    Drima, sorry to break my word. I swore that I would comment no more on this thread but i could not resist. Seems like you managed to get a very good theological, philosophical debate going.

25. Tsedek on June 8th, 2006 7:29 pm

    I don’t know about that surah, raccoon - i’m sure it can be explained in the relevant timeframe probably?

    I think the way you (and Rashi, hahaaa) go about the “God is omniscient etc.” thing is wrong. Looking too deep into matters that you, as you can see, will never find an answer for. With humble recognition of my own restrictions I just admit that I (human beings in general) cannot and are not supposed to know everything. It’s one of those things included in “the” test to see how strong your believe is. (Believe = not knowing)

    Tse.

26. The Raccoon on June 8th, 2006 11:17 pm

    Tsedek -

    It is the boundless monkey curiosity and the unquenchable thirst to do the impossible that endear the humans to me. Moreover, the quest for understanding is its own reward. Such is my humble Raccoonish opinion - and if I am not supposed to know something, it only fans my desire to know it
    And for people who disagree with you, see ChaBaD - Chochma, Bina, Da’at. Not only do these guys provide Jews with free Shabbat meals all over the world - they also believe in rational understanding of divinity.

    And your remark on belief is exactly what I was talking about when I was trying to highlight that which is wrong with religions. Nothing should stop free thought - to do otherwise is to succumb to Entropy. We can only develop through dynamic and unconstrained cognition - praise Eris!

    Unified Field Theory, anyone?

27. Tsedek on June 9th, 2006 6:22 am

    Raccoon You have me in stitches here, hahaha….

    Where did I ever mention it was forbidden to search for understanding? It’s in our blood and genes to want to know everything, to be able to understand. However, I’m totally convinced we’ll never find the answer until we’re dead (something to look forward to hahahahaaa) because the dimensions our brains can absorb are way too restricted.

    Tse.

28. One of Jesus's followers on February 13th, 2007 1:09 am

    This is a bunch of nonsense. What has the media got you thinking. Its 2007 and everyone who believes in Christ will live for an eternity.

    For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 9:6

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